If you had to choose one caliber to hunt all North American game which do you choose?


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blackops
June 7, 2009, 06:39 PM
What I'm really looking for here are opinions for the all time best all around North American hunting cartridge. I'm sure my personal opinion will differ from most, but I'm going to have to choose the 270. Flatter trajectory than the 30's, very manageable weight, and recoil. 90gr 3400fps for varmint size, 130gr 3150fps deer size game, and 180gr 2400fps for the big boys. Lets here what you hunters have to say. Also take into account that shots will not always be 100 yds in so that 30-30 has to go.

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Ol` Joe
June 7, 2009, 06:43 PM
The 30-06 has done this for 100 years.

Rembrandt
June 7, 2009, 06:44 PM
The great outdoor writer Jack O'Conner stated in many of his writings, there was no North American game that couldn't be taken with the .270.

Personally I think it is a bit light, I'd want something a little bigger for Moose and Bear. Shot placement is everything.

BADSBSNF81
June 7, 2009, 06:55 PM
270, 308, 30 06, all will do the job. Comes down to personal preference, skill and recoil sensitivity.

Redneck with a 40
June 7, 2009, 06:57 PM
30-06, king of versatility.:) My personal preference is the .308, but the '06 has earned its reputation.

sm
June 7, 2009, 06:59 PM
30-06

ReadyontheRight
June 7, 2009, 07:01 PM
30-06 - Mostly because of its availability as GOVT surplus ammo for practice, target shooting and plinking. And availability almost everywhere that sells ammo.

Dr.Rob
June 7, 2009, 07:08 PM
.30-06 Can't argue with success. Elk, deer, antelope, bear, sheep, pigs, whatever.

I have literally lost count of the number of antelope I've harvested with an 06, but it's a bunch.

PhrankKastle
June 7, 2009, 07:09 PM
45-70, anywhere I'm likely to hunt 250yds would be max and rarely over 150-175 would present itself and in those constraints I'm very comfortable with the 45-70 from my Ruger #1 or my Guide Gun.

Vern Humphrey
June 7, 2009, 07:24 PM
Another vote for the .30-06.

H2O MAN
June 7, 2009, 07:25 PM
.45-70

zapped
June 7, 2009, 07:27 PM
300 wsm

tcrocker
June 7, 2009, 07:34 PM
The 30-06 or the 270 would be fine. I think the 06 would be better for the better weight selection of bullets. But that being said I love my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. I shoot a 464gr cast bullet. It does not mess the meat up as bad as a fast moving round, and makes a nice size hole in the game. But that's this me. I think it would all depend on your hunting location.
http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/74/74/6/24/47/2203624470103526723NXUDTv_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2203624470103526723NXUDTv)

txman321
June 7, 2009, 07:36 PM
.30-06 I like the selection of bullets in this caliber

gga357
June 7, 2009, 07:46 PM
30-06

HKGuns
June 7, 2009, 07:59 PM
300 wsm

P.B.Walsh
June 7, 2009, 08:03 PM
.308 or 30-06.

Geno
June 7, 2009, 08:06 PM
I would opt for either the:

7mm Rem Mag

or the

.338 Win Mag

BK
June 7, 2009, 08:11 PM
I'll join with the .270 guys. The .30/06 gets second place just because of recoil on old bones.

freakshow10mm
June 7, 2009, 08:18 PM
375 H&H Magnum is what I use for everything.

edelbrock
June 7, 2009, 08:18 PM
30-06

Nero_Atrum
June 7, 2009, 08:20 PM
I would say 30-06, or 6.5x55 if I want to be a bit different.

MMCSRET
June 7, 2009, 08:24 PM
There are some caliber restrictions on dangerous game hunting in Alaska and Canada. I'm not sure that 30-06 or smaller qualifies. Maybe some checking on hunting regs in a particular area for certain game animals is in order.

PT1911
June 7, 2009, 08:29 PM
what happens when you shoot a squirrel or rabbit with a 30-06?

edelbrock
June 7, 2009, 08:32 PM
what happens when you shoot a squirrel or rabbit with a 30-06?
It suffers a rather quick death.

Handgunner
June 7, 2009, 08:34 PM
I'd have to say 30-06 also.

For hunting in North America, I can't see needing anything bigger. Not counting Grizzlies.

RugerOldArmy
June 7, 2009, 08:49 PM
9.3x62 or .35 Whelen.


I'd pick .270 Win, were it not for the great bears.


.375 H&H is a classic and a contender, but perhaps overkill, IMO. 9.3x62 is almost as capable as .375 H&H, but with noticable less recoil, and function in a standard length action. .35 Whelen is just behind 9.3x62.

Mtn395
June 7, 2009, 09:01 PM
30-06 or .308

Uncle Mike
June 7, 2009, 09:05 PM
and yet another 30-06!

sm
June 7, 2009, 09:13 PM
what happens when you shoot a squirrel or rabbit with a 30-06?

Old technique called "barking" is used to take smaller game with larger calibers, when one is wanting to fell a critter for meat.

I have taken squirrel, wabbit, and dove for instance, using a Model 70 in '06 , for meat.

waterhouse
June 7, 2009, 09:16 PM
Old technique called "barking"

Just a guess, is this shooting the tree near the squirrel and having the bark kill the critter?

saturno_v
June 7, 2009, 09:46 PM
I'd have to say 30-06 also.

For hunting in North America, I can't see needing anything bigger. Not counting Grizzlies.

Since when Grizzlies wear body armor capable of stopping a 30-06 round???

Thirty-Augh-Six hands down.....

Handgunner
June 7, 2009, 09:48 PM
Since when Grizzlies wear body armor capable of stopping a 30-06 round???

I'm not saying it wouldn't do the job, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I was hunting them either. ;)

saturno_v
June 7, 2009, 09:53 PM
I'm not saying it wouldn't do the job, but it wouldn't be my first choice if I was hunting them either.

All depends on the load...definitely I would not feel very comfortable with your run of the mill 150 gr. el cheapo whitetail load (Core Lokt, Winchester, etc...)

Premium partitions 180 gr. and up are a total different story....they are capable of quite some numbers on tough game....

SquirrelNuts
June 7, 2009, 10:01 PM
30-06 all they way! I own three, and want more.

Newton
June 7, 2009, 10:04 PM
270, it gives you more flexibility with bullet weights and is flatter shooting than the '06 for game that has to be taken at distance.

sm
June 7, 2009, 10:07 PM
> >Drift

waterhouse,
Yes you are correct.

Forgive the drift, still I have received a number of PMs about this, so allow me to answer in this thread to those I have yet to reply with a PM, and to have here in this thread for future use.

You catch the small game near a tree, and shoot the tree, in a manner where the "bark" actually kills the small game.

Where this comes in handy is for serious situations while hunting, or in the woods.
For instance you get lost, or the weather has turned nasty in a heartbeat, now turning a hunting or trip in the woods into a survival situation.

It does not matter if center-fire rifle, or even shotgun, such as those restricted to using slugs only for deer , even a centerfire handgun, like your CCW can be used.

One keeps in mind 4 rules of gun safety, especially rule four - Always be sure of your target and know what is behind it along the bullet's trajectory.

One is using ricochet to fell the small game.

Trees are the most obvious, even stumps. However this technique works in snow/ice settings, shooting a "bank of snow-n-ice" and in more barren settings, (no trees) shooting a rock, or bank of hard dirt. Even shooting low of a critter will fell them, with throwing up debris and the force of the shot.

Not a game, instead a serious skill set for the tool box in case of need.

Along with this, one is to always have a knife on person. One can lose a sheathed knife (fixed or folder) falling down a hill, or being thrown from a horse, or other situations.

A small knife, just a pen knife, such as Case Peanut, is to always be in your pocket (as I was raised and mentored) and even the SAK Classic on your key ring can be a literal life saver.

For whatever reason you do not, or cannot make a snare or trap, you can "bark" a critter(s).
The small knife will remove a bullet, ( pellets or slug from shotgun shell) and allow you to use the gunpowder to make a fire, and make means to cook what "barked" , and clean the critter(s).

May I suggest some you folks Mentor this to new folks. I have received 11 PMs about this, since posting it earlier.

I also suggest using "dummy ctgs" , spent primer, bullet seated to practice the using of bullet for fire starting.

On a range with safe backstop, get a stump, and use small balloons to teach and practice this.
I have also used used small target outlines cut to critter shape, and size. One can see the ricochet "pattern" on the cardboard.


Back to our original thread .


Steve

StrawHat
June 7, 2009, 10:23 PM
Personal choices would be 45-70, 405 WCF than the 30-06. Actually, Nothing is wrong with the 50-70 but there are rather few of them.

Nugilum
June 7, 2009, 10:28 PM
United States Military .30 caliber M1906, or also known as:

.30-06 Springfield

flyboy1788
June 7, 2009, 10:31 PM
.30-06

schlockinz
June 7, 2009, 10:32 PM
30-06 for a all around gun. I don't think it can be beat. The 270 is nice as well, but I'll take my 06 instead.

Only reason I have two centerfire rifles was to have a carbine (45-70) for brush hunting.

MMCSRET
June 7, 2009, 10:42 PM
Obviously, since the "GUN WRITERS SAY SO", the 30-06 is obsolete and nothing smaller than 300RUM should be used on any thing bigger than an elk. The 30-30 is no longer capable of taking moose(thats because the moose have been made bullet proof by reading GUN WRITERS. See where this goes? In Montana, 22 rimfire is legal for deer, in Idaho it must be 22 centerfire. Same game is tougher to kill in some states than in others.
Elmer Keith considered the 270 Winchester a pretty good coyote gun, but there were better calibers in his estimation.
Go figure!!!!!!

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 7, 2009, 11:36 PM
.280 Rem. Close, close 2nd to .270 win & .30-'06 (tie).

homers
June 7, 2009, 11:39 PM
OK, since most are going with the 30-06, I'll go with my 7x57.

schlockinz
June 7, 2009, 11:41 PM
Really, they'll let you shoot with a .22 rimfire on deer?

To me that does seem too small, unless it was a .22 mag, and even then, I'd think at least a hornet should be used.

I know a .22LR will kill them (I've done it in a pinch on a wounded deer), but that takes some good shot placement, and I don't think that its really the most ethical way of taking the animal.

sarduy
June 7, 2009, 11:47 PM
22lr :neener:















30-06 would be great.:D

SpeedAKL
June 7, 2009, 11:53 PM
.300 Win Mag, just in case of bears

Eightball
June 7, 2009, 11:57 PM
.30-06, doubly so for handloaders.

RugerOldArmy
June 7, 2009, 11:58 PM
Since when Grizzlies wear body armor capable of stopping a 30-06 round???


Assuming the Grizz chooses fight over flight, that equation changes dramatically. You could surely KILL a bear with an '06. I would feel undergunned with an '06 to STOP a charge...

...then again, on the internet, the average bear hunters have more courage than I. ;)

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 12:03 AM
Assuming the Grizz chooses fight over flight, that equation changes dramatically.

If you have a 30-06 with the proper loadings and you think you are undegunned against a grizzly, you need to work on your shooting skills not getting a bigger caliber....:rolleyes::D

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 12:06 AM
...then again, on the internet, the average bear hunters have more courage than I.

If you have a 30-06 with the proper loadings and you think you are undegunned against a grizzly, you need to work on your shooting skills not on caliber....


Case in point. Good luck with that.

sublimaze41
June 8, 2009, 12:55 AM
.30-06 with a stiff charge of 4350 and Barnes TSX. This should pretty much take care of the big stuff.

My simple Savage is quite capable of MOA so head shots on tree rats or rabbits is not that difficult.

Kansan
June 8, 2009, 01:06 AM
This is getting kind of repetitive, but I'll have to go with...

.30-06 of course

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 01:10 AM
Case in point. Good luck with that.

Courage has nothing to do with caliber...

Personally, I would **** my pants in front of a bear charge even with a shoulder fired rocket....I have no desire to hunt a big bear in my life, never mind witness a charge situation....the caliber of your weapon (up to a point) has nothing to do with it...

I did talk to several responsible people that found themselves in hairy situations with big nasty critters....no fun at all.....

In a charge the only thing that matter is a CNS hit...30-06 or 458 Lott doesn't matter... you get there, lights out.....markmanship, shot placement (repeat 100 times)

It is a very dangerous proposition when people level of confidence increase with the caliber...this is how gun writers get people killed in the woods....

Some forgot to tell to the grizzlies killed during a charge for decades that they should not suppose to die with the good old 30-06....:rolleyes::D

Float Pilot
June 8, 2009, 01:15 AM
Here in Alaska the 30-06 and 338 Win mag are the two most popular hunting cartridges. The 30-06 being considered the minimum required for Alaskan bush work by city folk and the max needed by most native hunters.

The caliber size seems to increase the closer you get to a big city like Anchorage with all their gun stores.

That said, I have harvested every critter up here, except Bison, with a 7x57mm Mauser using hot handloads. But I am a rifleman and know how to stalk. I would not want to stop a 1,000 pound brown bear with a 7x57mm. But then again I have never been charged during the last 50 years. The ones I took, never knew I was there. The bears that know I am around give me wide berth...They can tell what you are thinking...

So there is a difference between being the hunter or the hunted.

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 01:16 AM
Some forgot to tell to the grizzlies killed during a charge for decades that they should not suppose to die with the good old 30-06....

Darwin? :neener:

surjimmy
June 8, 2009, 01:24 AM
300 wsm

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 01:29 AM
I would not want to stop a 1,000 pound brown bear with a 7x57mm. So there is a difference between being the hunter or the hunted.


Nor would I. Then again that poster was convinced .30-30 is a good Elk cartridge too. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=453683)

He's clearly a better shot than I ;)

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 01:30 AM
Well said FLoat Pilot...


Years ago a fisherman had to use his Marlin lever in 35 Remington to stop a charge from a fairly big one up there...2 nice rounds and was all over....I guess he was incredibly lucky...according to some people, a 35 Rem bullet should bounce off a Grizzly or tickle him......

By the way, the 7X57 is no slouch either...I'm not sure, with the right loads, if I want to be Mr. Bear in front of it at short distances if the shooter knows his trade....

scythefwd
June 8, 2009, 02:00 AM
saturno,
I wouldn't mind it IF the bear wasn't full stride and heading towards me at less than 50 ft. Bears can run 35 miles an hour and get there pretty quick. You may kill him, but then you have a sliding/rolling 1k of dead bear to dodge :) I would hate to be killed by a dead bear. I would never live it down :)

'06 or .308 for me. Is the .270 capable of dropping a bison/buffalo humanely? Probably.. but I'd rather have the 220 grain 06 doing the job instead.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 02:10 AM
RugerOldArmy


Nobody said that the 30-30 is an elk gun...what many said is that is perfectly doable within limits....and H&H even posted the elk his daughter got under non ideal conditions...you should read more the post....and trust people that been there and done that...


This is a video about a Siberian Brown Bear hunt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU3wIorO04s

Look at the rifle the Russian guide use to back his American clients....yes a sporterized Mosin Nagant chambered for the good old 7,62 X 54R....I guess he's lucky that he is still alive after all these years huh??

Yes, maybe you should work at your shooting skills indeed, if you think power is the most important factor....:rolleyes:

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 02:11 AM
saturno,
I wouldn't mind it IF the bear wasn't full stride and heading towards me at less than 50 ft. Bears can run 35 miles an hour and get there pretty quick. You may kill him, but then you have a sliding/rolling 1k of dead bear to dodge I would hate to be killed by a dead bear. I would never live it down


In the situation you described you could be as easily in trouble with a 458 Lott as a with a 30-06...at that distance both rounds would go through brisket to butt....the important thing is to get in the right spot in between...

scythefwd
June 8, 2009, 02:18 AM
saturno,
That was my point. That fisherman and his .35 very well could have been lucky. I could see it working outside of 50y, but round here (1. we don't have big bears, 2. cant see past 50y in the most hunted areas) it could have very well ended differently if that bear was really coming for him. It's not that the 35 isn't up to the task, its that almost any round will take too long in close encounters. A 50bmg or 20mm vulcan would probably be the only two rounds I would consider up to the task( stop paddington grisly right there in his tracks) in the situation I gave above (I don't know enough about the 416 to say on that one).

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 02:22 AM
Saturno,

Nobody said an '06 can't KILL a bear. Karamojo Bell killed elephants with a .275 Rigby. Now, he didn't claim it was ideal, he claimed he couldn't tolerate recoil. And he had backing.

Maybe you've got bear anatomy down pat, experience hunting them, are never surprised, and a fine marksman of moving targets.

Wether the cartridge is ideal for it, is another thing entirely. Coastal Brownies get huge. They have teeth. Using a light cartridge for Elk may not be ethical, but it likely won't get you killed.

When I went fishing in Alaska, my guide carried a .375 H&H, and had a strong preference for it.

You could check this link (http://www.alaskahunts.net/alaska/brownbear.htm) on brown bear hunts. Consider their experience. I quote from the page: Firearms for brown bear will always be the subject of much debate, but one thing is certain, we prefer that any hunter seriously wanting to hunt the big bears carry nothing less than a .338 Win. Mag with 250 grain premium bullets, and I do mean premium. We are not in the business of chasing wounded bears all across the country because someone wanted to prove a point made by some dim-witted outdoor writer. Personally I prefer that hunters use .375 H&H, and up, if they can handle them effectively. The key phrase here is certainly "handle them effectively," and if an individual can't stomach the larger bore rifles they should use something they are more comfortable with, but there is a limit in this area. We really don't want guys asking to bring their 7mm's or 30-06's into brown bear camp, and yea I have heard all about the great numbers of bears taken with the '06, and no I am not impressed by those stories. I am impressed by the numbers for the .50 caliber BMG, and if you could handle shooting this I would prefer you bring it into camp.

Hollywood Marine
June 8, 2009, 03:08 AM
Took a charging bear years ago with a .444 Marlin. That said, a 30-06 would have taken that grizzly just as well. ...And oh yes, he scared the .... out of me.

cptkeybrd
June 8, 2009, 03:08 AM
My friend you need to take a trip to Ketchikan alaska to see what a real grizzly can do. They have Old Moaner there stuffed finally after killing 4 hunters over 4 or five years. When the last guy got him he had 4 slugs in his chest and one in his head, all of them bigger than 30 cal. If you go for Grizz you bring the biggest gun you can carry.
Amen

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 03:19 AM
We really don't want guys asking to bring their 7mm's or 30-06's into brown bear camp, and yea I have heard all about the great numbers of bears taken with the '06, and no I am not impressed by those stories. I am impressed by the numbers for the .50 caliber BMG, and if you could handle shooting this I would prefer you bring it into camp.

This last sentence make the writer of this piece simply not credible as experienced hunter and guide....I would say it make him ridiculous....

we prefer that any hunter seriously wanting to hunt the big bears carry nothing less than a .338 Win. Mag with 250 grain premium bullets

So now the 338 is almost borderline adequate.....entry level....interesting....

Like Float Pilot said, I bet this outfitter shop is in downtown Anchorage and they go out full of ultrasophisticated electronic gear, GPS trackers and so on....

I'm going to send him an e-mail to know if I can bring to camp my 155 mm Howitzer or a Sidewinder launcher...

Bell killed elephants wiht a 275 Rigby....it's apples with oranges....that is what I would call being seriously undergunned.... elephant can be up to 20 times bigger than a Grizzly and think skinned too....

My friend you need to take a trip to Ketchikan alaska to see what a real grizzly can do. They have Old Moaner there stuffed finally after killing 4 hunters over 4 or five years. When the last guy got him he had 4 slugs in his chest and one in his head, all of them bigger than 30 cal. If you go for Grizz you bring the biggest gun you can carry.
Amen

Again this has nothing to do with your firearm caliber...I do not need to take a trip to Ketchikan....i knwo for a fact that grizzly have been killed for defense and hunting very effectively with 30-06 and similar by natives and fishermen....

What is so hard to understand about shot placement??

Took a charging bear years ago with a .444 Marlin. That said, a 30-06 would have taken that grizzly just as well. ...And oh yes, he scared the .... out of me.

Hollywood Marine prove my point..

Regardless of caliber, in situations like that you would be dead scared....what it has to do with the caliber??

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 03:26 AM
scythefwd

That grizzly was dead on that firsherman....he barely had the time to fire his two shots...because it was a lever gun....with a bolt gun would have been only one round....

sarduy
June 8, 2009, 03:29 AM
RugerOldArmy


Nobody said that the 30-30 is an elk gun...what many said is that is perfectly doable within limits....and H&H even posted the elk his daughter got under non ideal conditions...you should read more the post....and trust people that been there and done that...


This is a video about a Siberian Brown Bear hunt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU3wIorO04s

Look at the rifle the Russian guide use to back his American clients....yes a sporterized Mosin Nagant chambered for the good old 7,62 X 54R....I guess he's lucky that he is still alive after all these years huh??

Yes, maybe you should work at your shooting skills indeed, if you think power is the most important factor....:rolleyes:

i dont think that bear died from the shot :o it died from the fall :what::neener:

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 03:32 AM
Guys

Do you think this would be adequate for grizzly hunting??

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/G5_howitzer_%28Impi%29.jpg


I think it may be on the light side wouldn't it???

wickedsprint
June 8, 2009, 03:37 AM
Right now I own a .243 Bolt gun that is easy to shoot very well. If I had to, I would use it on anything in NA if I was hungry.

If given the choice to replace it with any caliber, I'd opt for a .308 or .30-06.

natman
June 8, 2009, 03:52 AM
what happens when you shoot a squirrel or rabbit with a 30-06?

If you are going to talk about ONE cartridge for anything in North America some compromise is going to have to be made on the extreme edges of available game. No, a 30-06 is not ideal for small game. It's not ideal for grizzlies either, but it would be a lot better for them than a squirrel rifle.

blackops
June 8, 2009, 04:07 AM
So for the most part majority will take a 30-06. I like that though because I like being different and I still take the 270. Shot placement is most important and I think with a 180 gr in my 270 I could drop a bear.

dscottw88
June 8, 2009, 04:17 AM
Another vote for 30-06

cptkeybrd
June 8, 2009, 04:45 AM
that siberian bear died from Dain Bramage, seems to be more around here.....

Rob96
June 8, 2009, 05:43 AM
45/70

Uncle Mike
June 8, 2009, 06:01 AM
It is a very dangerous proposition when people level of confidence increase with the caliber

-funny you say something like this... my safes are full of ' inadequate' calibers in which I have had the oppertunity to buy back from our clientele...

Many have purchased standard caliber firearms only to miss or wound and loose game with them do to inadequate marksmanship and or field skills....

Later they(the persons of lesser marksmanship) return with said inadequate caliber firearm telling of how they put round after round in the sweet spot only to have the game in question elude them unscathed.

This is when the 'I must have a larger, more poweful caliber' talk starts....
The lesser caliber is at fault (for my miss or poorly placed shot)... I hit that animal just right and it got away... if I only had a super sexy highspeed magnum I would have gotten that animal.

So off they go with todays latest, greatest magnum.... hmmm, I should start a magnum collection.... you know, they come back in with the same stories, only this time they are holding the big magnums in thier hands.

Many, if not all of these buy backs are in excellent, sparsely fired condition...

:D

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 09:51 AM
This last sentence make the writer of this piece simply not credible as experienced hunter and guide....I would say it make him ridiculous....

Gotcha. The writer wasn't trying to make a point, he was just ridiculous. All that experience hunting brown bears, and yet he dares to form an opinion that disagrees with Karamojo Saturno. Perhaps he has never seen those fine groups you shoot with your keyboard.

I'm convinced. I think you're right. An '06 is a suitable DGR...for you.

1911shooter
June 8, 2009, 09:58 AM
338-378 weatherby mag. i love this gun and do not feel that a big magnum is the answear for everyone. but i use this for everything from deer to bears and it has never failed and as long as i do my part never will.

Art Eatman
June 8, 2009, 10:37 AM
There is hunting, and then there is stopping--so I'm gonna leave the Big Bears out of it. :)

Since I can handload a 00 Buck for a squirrel load, an 80- or a 110-grain for varmints and on up to 180s for bigger critters, I'd most likely stay with my '06. It's nowhere near the only good one, of course, but it's the one with which I've been playing for nearly sixty years. You know how hard it is to break a habit. :D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 8, 2009, 10:40 AM
338-378 weatherby mag..... i use this for everything from deer to bears

Yikes! :eek: Well, that's ONE way to do it. :p

funny you say something like this... my safes are full of ' inadequate' calibers in which I have had the oppertunity to buy back from our clientele...

Many have purchased standard caliber firearms only to miss or wound and loose game with them do to inadequate marksmanship and or field skills....

Later they(the persons of lesser marksmanship) return with said inadequate caliber firearm telling of how they put round after round in the sweet spot only to have the game in question elude them unscathed.

This is when the 'I must have a larger, more poweful caliber' talk starts....
The lesser caliber is at fault (for my miss or poorly placed shot)... I hit that animal just right and it got away... if I only had a super sexy highspeed magnum I would have gotten that animal.

So off they go with todays latest, greatest magnum.... hmmm, I should start a magnum collection.... you know, they come back in with the same stories, only this time they are holding the big magnums in thier hands.

Many, if not all of these buy backs are in excellent, sparsely fired condition...

Yup, it's ridiculous. Some people think it must be the caliber's fault. Now it MAY be the bullet choice fault (wrong choice of ammo by the owner), but 99.999999% of the time, it ain't the caliber, and it's missing the mark more often than the bullet construction choice.

Reiterate that .280 rem is what I'd use if I could only have ONE centerfire rifle.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 10:42 AM
Gotcha. The writer wasn't trying to make a point, he was just ridiculous. All that experience hunting brown bears, and yet he dares to form an opinion that disagrees with Karamojo Saturno. Perhaps he has never seen those fine groups you shoot with your keyboard.

I'm convinced. I think you're right. An '06 is a suitable DGR...for you.

I don't think he was trying to make a point...He was dead serious...considering the fact the he thinks the 338 Win Mag is minimum acceptable....

He can have all experience you want blasting the woods with portable howitzers....point is that thousands of grizzly bears have been dropped by the 30-06 and similar, quite comfortably...ask the natives....this fact is undeniable...something that you, conveniently, decide to ignore....so don't argue with me....I just comment facts....go and tell them that their rifle is inadequate...


I guess that before the super boomers of the last 40-50 years everybody was crapping their pants in Alaska for lack of adequate power right???

And you confuse groups with caliber..power with accuracy...what is your point??

Like Float Pilot said, is a well known fact that the minimum accepted caliber for bears tend to get bigger the more close you get to urban areas....the "sunday hunters"....

Thank you for the Karamojo label, but as I said before I never hunted a bear and I have no desire to...but I know quite few people that did it and even got pictures to prove it....I have enormous respect for them...what my groups has to do with it???

The last one is a retired oil prospector that worked in Alaska for more than 30 years...his favourite bear defense gun??? A pump shotgun stuffed with Brenneke and his trusty Remington Model 760 in 30-06....

I like the words of an old ranger: When they say, "that monster was soaking up 375 bullets like candies!!!" they forget to mention that one went to the guts, the other busted the bear's foot, two others went in the air as the shooter was crapping himself....then the guide, to make his client feel good after the dollars he spent on the trip, told him that his shooting was perfect, spot on, nothing wrong with your ability... "

I do not think there is nothing useful to add anymore to this discussion so I stop here......some people rely on raw power some on accuracy....the 30-06 have proven itself up there without our bickering back and forth...

Look at this video of the typical sunday hunters shooting all over the place....I bet you think that the caliber was inadequate!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc&feature=fvw

olyAR73
June 8, 2009, 10:49 AM
I pretty much always opted for my M70 '06 when I lived in interior AK, over the 338 win mag. Most guys that I know hunt with 308s 300 win mags or '06s. Native Alaskans living in the bush love 30-30s for subsistance rifles.
Handguns are 357's and 44's. My partner and I hunted grouse with our 1911's often when on greyling fishing trips.These were our SD weapons as well. Locals usually grin at the big yuppy stuff. (500 sw magnum with 9 in bbl type stuff.) There is quite an industry selling artillery to outsiders and newcomers though.

A fisherman stopped a charging brownie with a 9mm a few years back.
The bush is all about practicality and using what you have. In the unlikely event your attacked you had better use it well.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 10:59 AM
olyAR73

Don't worry...in a few years the 338-378 will become the minimum recommended for bears......you know, they evolve....becoming more and more bulletproof by the year....

Typical perfect CNS shot during a lion charge....severed spine I guess...game over......303 British or 458 Lott doesn't matter at that distance....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIPAuLd-zvw

hogmanahoo.com
June 8, 2009, 11:07 AM
30-06,

1911shooter
June 8, 2009, 11:10 AM
If they are gonna tell us the 338-378 wby is the min. then i dont want to hunt those animals because there would be a problem. i only use it because i like my Accu-Mark and all my handloads are tailored to my game. and i shoot it better then many other rifles i own, it fits me perfect.

hogmanahoo.com
June 8, 2009, 11:12 AM
m1a1 tank,can kill gut skin and wrap the meat all in one shot just as good as a big gut blowing magnum

Joe Demko
June 8, 2009, 11:24 AM
.45-70

Joe Demko
June 8, 2009, 11:31 AM
No doubt bears can be tough and grow to large sizes. It is a puzzlement how they were ever killed before the development of depleted uranium slugs and powered aircraft.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 11:36 AM
There is hunting, and then there is stopping--so I'm gonna leave the Big Bears out of it.

Very true...but it is one of the most misunderstood concept...


When you hunt, a broadshde shot by the book from 150-200 yards on an unmolested bear that takes lungs or heart is a perfect shot...the bear may die very quickly or require a little bit of tracking...


In a charge situation, only a CNS hit (very difficult) virtually guarantee a stop...a busted shoulder may slow the critter down a bit for you and give more chances at shooting more....


So when someone says that a 30-06 is good for hunting bears but inadequate at stopping them is simply not true...instead a different shot placement and set of skills (and a good dose of luck!!!) are required...the animal is the same and the caliber is the same.....the bullet still plow through bone and muscles...

From more than one person that been there and done that I heard that actually the newer super powerful high velocity rounds may be at disadvantage at very short distances because if you hit a bone even a premium bullet may fail....at one time a 300 Weatherby Magnum failed to penetrate at extreme short range (less than 10 yards) because the bullet literally exploded on impact...a slower caliber may have gone through.....

Vern Humphrey
June 8, 2009, 11:37 AM
Read the title:

If you had to choose one caliber to hunt all North American game which do you choose?

The question is not "What is best for brown bears?" or "What is best for antelope?"

For all North American hunting, the best choice would be a flat-shooting cartridge of reasonable power, falling some where in the middle range, neither a shoulder-bruising specialty dangerous game stopper, nor a pip-squeak.

When you look at candidate cartridges, and consider overall versitality, you wind up with something like the 7mm Rem Mag, the .30-06, or the .300 Win Mag.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 11:46 AM
Vern

Amen to that!!

olyAR73
June 8, 2009, 11:55 AM
Good point.
Sorry for the side bar.
30 06 for N. America.

HydeSmyler
June 8, 2009, 02:06 PM
30-06

H2O MAN
June 8, 2009, 02:29 PM
saturno_v, you do realize larger calibers have been used to great effect long before the smallish 30-06 was introduced don't you?

woof
June 8, 2009, 02:30 PM
If I had to choose one caliber it would mean I was way too financially strapped to be hunting a fraction of the game in North America.

Master Blaster
June 8, 2009, 02:52 PM
No Big game around here, and if I had to choose one for survival and feeding hungry children, Rifle it would be 17HM2 (.22lr otherwise if HM2 wasnt availible), but really it would be a 12 Gauge shotgun, shot slugs buck will take just about any game as far as I can see around here.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 04:43 PM
saturno_v, you do realize larger calibers have been used to great effect long before the smallish 30-06 was introduced don't you?


Yes....at barely more than 1/3 of velocity....in those distant times they had no choice other than to increase the size and weight of bullets because of the limitation of black powder...for example the monstrous .577 Snider cartridge of the late 1800s developed only ~1600 ft/lb at the muzzle....

The large caliber smokeless express cartridges of the early 1900 were built (including the medium caliber 375 H&H) specifically for the largest African mammals, Elephant, Rhino, etc... I doubt at the times the 375 H&H was considered necessary in Alaska ;)

H2O MAN
June 8, 2009, 04:55 PM
The limitations of black powder are long gone having been replaced with modern powder
and bullets making some of the older, larger calibers an even better choice today :)

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 05:04 PM
Large calibers have indeed their usefulness do not get me wrong....nobody is bashing the big bores here....Bell shootiung elephants with his 275 Riugby is the quintessential definition of being severely undergunned!! :D

But the tendency in the last decades is to increase what is considered minimum acceptable for every game....

The 30 WCF is nowdays considered entry level on deer.....100 years ago it was God's lightning on Bambi compared, let's say, to a 44-40 WCF.....

The 348 Winchester, the 45-70 or the 358 Winchester were considered very good big bears busters in AK, with muzzle energies, at best, on par with the 30-06....in the 1960's even 44 Magnum lever carbines were used as good light and handy bear defense tools up there....very flexible because of the revolver round, so you could have one cartridge for rifle and handgun like the good old frontier times with the 44-40 WCF....

Joe Demko
June 8, 2009, 05:22 PM
So, you're saying the animals are getting tougher? Do you attribute it to food additives or to alien nanotechnology? I'm sure the sinister significance of pancakes is part of this...

Uncle Mike
June 8, 2009, 05:23 PM
The large caliber smokeless express cartridges of the early 1900 were built (including the medium caliber 375 H&H) specifically for the largest African mammals, Elephant, Rhino, etc... I doubt at the times the 375 H&H was considered necessary in Alaska

...but the men were a bit, shall we say different, way back then....

Todays hunter, oops, I'm so sorry, field person with their neatly clipped nails ever so eloquently polished, latest salon furnished rose peddle ice cream coconut milk hair styling jell and only the finest double tweed Lubloyds of London field jacket would be hard pressed to venture into bar country let alone fire upon such said creature.... even with a .375 H&H... which by the way, also came from Lubloyds......:neener:

Yesterdays hunter would think nothing of b1tch slapping a griz with the smallish pip-squeak 30-06.:eek:

Heck, I would venture as far as to say that yeasterdays hunter would give his left one to have such a powerful cartridge at his disposal!

We have evolved.... :D >:evil:

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 05:26 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA what about the gret 22lr it will stop a tank http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/sarge/BoomSmilie_anim.gif

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 05:27 PM
If you want to know what I am talking about visit the rocket scientists in the combat 22 thread

Supertac45
June 8, 2009, 05:35 PM
.270 or 6.5x55 would be my choice.

Reid73
June 8, 2009, 05:56 PM
.30/06 is my own choice. But no one would be wrong to prefer a .270 (or .280), 7x57, 7mm Mag, .308 or .300 Mag.

Each of the above cartridges has its own strengths and weakness ... but they are excellent 'all-around' calibres and can handle all N. American big game at reasonable ranges.

NELSONs02
June 8, 2009, 06:00 PM
7mm-08 Remington or 30-06.

TX Hog Hunter
June 8, 2009, 06:01 PM
Easy a .30-06, probably a Ruger Hawkeye SS Laminate with a Trijicon Accupoint.

saturno_v
June 8, 2009, 06:01 PM
By the way, even the standard cartridges have evolved...the modern 30-06, bullets, powders, is not your grandfather 30-06.....

paintballdude902
June 8, 2009, 06:14 PM
either .30-06 or .45-70

Gunnerpalace
June 8, 2009, 06:17 PM
M1 Garand in 30-06

clone
June 8, 2009, 06:51 PM
12 Gauge, can take game from squirrels and small game bird's to deer, elk, and bear.

Eric F
June 8, 2009, 09:25 PM
There are a whole slew of rounds that will fit into this catagory, if you go smokeless 45-70, you can up load to kill every thing up to buffalo ang big bears or down load with a lead flat nose to get rabbits. Then again the 7mm mag will do the dame then again the 308 and 30-30 can do it too..........see what I mean?

TeamRush
June 8, 2009, 09:26 PM
As for 'Barking' Squirrels, I've done it many times.
The one thing I never saw mentioned is stepping on the rodents and breaking necks before putting them in the game bag...

Don't know if it was an oversight, or just repeating something they read, but you MUST ensure they are DEAD before you bag them, or you will get a MOST unplesent surprise when they come around!

Most of the time, Barking' only knocks them UNCONSCIOUS!

It's usually a LONG way from killing them outright, they might die of internal injuries later, but barking usually just knocks them out....
If you don't step on the head and TWIST.... Well, you figure out what holding a running chainsaw by the blade will feel like!
----------------------------------------

I have to throw my 2¢ worth behind a 12 Gauge shot gun.
I can stop ANYTHING in North America, Including ALASKA, with a 12 gauge and the 'Right' loads...

Last hunting trip to Alaska, the guides wouldn't even take you out unless you were .300 Mag or larger.
To be fair, it WAS a bear hunt, and those guys like to go home to their families.

Most of the guides were carrying .338 Mags or 12 gauge shot guns.

If it's a choice when a 900 pound grizzly pops out of the brush 10 feet way,

I want a TRANSPORTER!
"Scotty! Beam Me Up NOW!
(and have fresh underwear standing by!)

Actually, at 10 feet you would need a .50 BMG on full auto to stop it before it got to you!
They say 12 gauge with bronze or copper slugs is about the same thing, so I skipped the handgun and carried a 12 Ga. when we were fishing!

Nothing like buck shot and Sabot slugs for smaller game and flying/running lunch size animals!

PT1911
June 8, 2009, 09:29 PM
I wouldnt choose a rifle at all I would choose a shotgun instead.. if I must choose a rifle, sadly it would probably be a .22 because it can take small, medium, and some larger game as well...

that is the beauty of variety... different guns for different hunts

RugerOldArmy
June 8, 2009, 09:45 PM
There are a whole slew of rounds that will fit into this catagory, if you go smokeless 45-70, you can up load to kill every thing up to buffalo ang big bears or down load with a lead flat nose to get rabbits.

I don't even think smokeless would be required. A 405 Gr chunk of lead moving at 1300 fps has more thump than shows in the numbers. A 12 Ga with slugs would be effective, for similar reasons.

Including great bears does skew the answers though.

gimlet1/21
June 8, 2009, 09:57 PM
My choice is the 30-30 for any North American game animal. Then I'll take the 30-06, on any continent, for the animal that might be armed and return fire.

scythefwd
June 9, 2009, 12:56 AM
Saturno,
Post 70 is hilarious. I agree that the -06 is great for hunting bear. I would just rather have something bigger to stop a bear that is hunting me. I honestly don't think anything will stop a grisly dead in its tracks. Really, the 50 bmg i referenced wouldn't even do it.. it would slide a few feet before it came to a stop:) That 35 you were talking about packs enough of a whollop.

If the bear was dead on the fisherman, I think it got a bit too close for my comfort. I'm not sure where you got bolt action though, there are semi auto -06 out there.

10-Ring
June 9, 2009, 01:13 AM
Easy one -- 30-06

noob_shooter
June 9, 2009, 01:34 AM
7mm mag..

memphisjim
June 9, 2009, 01:39 AM
what the heck usually no matter what the question someone answers .223 where have these guys gone

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 02:05 AM
.223, if you get close enough, have full auto, and have a 100 round drum with a 40mm grenade launcher under the barrel! ;)

blackops
June 9, 2009, 02:33 AM
My choice is the 30-30 for any North American game animal. Then I'll take the 30-06, on any continent, for the animal that might be armed and return fire.

Your going to be in trouble in Africa

blackops
June 9, 2009, 03:45 AM
338-378 weatherby mag. i love this gun and do not feel that a big magnum is the answear for everyone. but i use this for everything from deer to bears and it has never failed and as long as i do my part never will.

I guess you don't plan on eating your kill cause there will be nothing left of the animal with this load. I had a chance to shoot this gun. Even with a muzzle brake the recoil was atrocious. I shot once and couldn't believe it. Then I shot it again to make sure it really kicked as hard as I though. After the second I was sure and never will fire the gun again most likely. For a bear though I would consider it an option.

FSJeeper
June 9, 2009, 07:31 AM
I did a once in a lifetime hunt in South Africa about 10 years ago. Only hunted plains game ranging from Bush Buck to Eland. The recommended caliber for this hunt was .375 H&H, .338, or .340 Weatherby. I chose the .340 Weatherby and took a 30-06 as a back up rifle. In day 5 of a 14 day hunt, my rifle was dropped in the rocks and the scope damaged beyond repair. I used the 30-06 the rest of the hunt.

While the .340 WM defintely did its job, so did the 30-06. I used handloads using 200 grain nosler partitions. It performed perfectly and I could not ask for more, nor need more cartridge. The last animal I shot was a large Zebra. 280 yard shot. When they cleaned it, they found the perfectly mushroomed nosler partition bullet just inside the hide on the opposite side of the body in the shoulder. I have been sold on the 30-06 since then and it is now my only hunting cartridge.

The 30-06 cartridge has ultimate availibilty just about anywhere on the planet, OKA 7.62 x 63, is a handloaders dream easily handling a wide range of bullets up to 220 grains, it is accurate, and it is boringly reliable. It has been doing its job well for over 100 years. You can not go wrong with the 30-06.

If I lived in Grizzly country though, I would opt for the .375 H&H for safe measure.

snakeman
June 9, 2009, 08:02 AM
45-70

joedapro
June 9, 2009, 02:09 PM
300 weatherby. it can kill anything on the planet. it is accurate well past 1000yards. you can load loads equivalant to 32 acp with trail boss powder and cast bullets, or to elephant stopping loads with the slow burning powders. the mark 5 action is the best and safest action made.

SN13
June 9, 2009, 02:27 PM
Without reading the entire thread:

.270 Win.

Reid73
June 9, 2009, 02:29 PM
300 weatherby is a perfectly legimate choice; but saying that "it can kill anything on the planet" isn't especially helpful. After all, the same claim can be made of any calibre from the .22LR on up.

the mark 5 action is the best and safest action madeI wish people wouldn't make silly, categorical statements like this.

jbech123
June 9, 2009, 02:44 PM
If you have a 30-06 with the proper loadings and you think you are undegunned against a grizzly, you need to work on your shooting skills not getting a bigger caliber....

So tell us about some of your encounters with charging grizzly bears and your shooting skills under those conditions...yeah that's what I thought. There is a reason outfitters and guides start with a 338 and go up from there.

Reid73
June 9, 2009, 03:00 PM
.30/06 can certainly be used for grizzlies and was for many years, before the magnums became widely available. It is not well known as a 'charge stopper', however.

A case can be made that a hunter who is recoil-shy is better off using a .30/06 and placing his or her shot(s) properly than blazing away with a rifle that s/he cannot shoot well. That said, with coaching and practice most people can learn to shoot a .338 or .375 accurately.

dirt_j00
June 9, 2009, 03:16 PM
Aught-6

cameron.personal
June 9, 2009, 03:54 PM
.223/5.56 it's like putting a 1/4 stick of dynamite in the thing you shoot.

Cameron

nathan
June 9, 2009, 03:58 PM
3006 in all its glory.

Polar Express
June 9, 2009, 04:40 PM
Wow, what a thread!

I'm am in the middle of this debate myself.

It sure seems to me that there are 2 different debates going on here: 1) panic self-defense situations, and 2) a kill/drop shot for game.

Everyone here is making great points, and I have enjoyed reading/learning from this thread.

My JOB is panic situations (fireman), but I have never had to shoot in a panic situation. I have only been to Alaska once, and that was a fishing trip. I chose to take the 1911 for a sidearm against a bear if needed. To me, that seemed undergunned, but that's what I was most familiar with, and felt I could put as many rounds as I could in a panic situation. So that logic won out. Fortunately, for us and the local bears, we didn't need them.

In N/A, Moose, Bears and buffalo seem to me to be the largest of the game we have, right? Am I missing any?

When you are hunting to survive, you're getting A LOT of practice, and you use what you have - I know a guy that used a 22lr to harvest elk to survive by shooting them in the eye (he was alone on a wilderness farm many years ago) You use what you have.

If you're hunting by choice (sport), I believe it's proper and responsible to 'use enough gun'. I've used a 30-30 lever gun hunting elk before. Why, it had open sights and the terrain I was in meant any shot I might get was within 40 yards, and dense brush. So, to me, that wasn't irresponsible.

I have read before that most AK residents in the rural areas rarely use anything larger than the .308 or 30-06. Don't know for sure, but I've read that before on more than one occasion. Well, if you're harvesting several critters a year, and you have all kinds of time to practice shot placement and the effects of different shots, then great. But, if you're an occasional hunter, who logs a responsible amount of range time with their gun prior to a hunt, and picks ONE gun, perhaps it's not unwise to select one with a little more energy. Especially when you consider the range you may be presented with when you encounter your chosen game.

Here's an example: can you go get a load of gravel in a pickup truck? yup. would it be easier to have a dump bed on that pickup truck? uh huh.

So, I see a lot of folks here who love that 30-06. That's a darn fine round. Very versatile, and proven. But, for the occasional hunter, as most folks are, (I would suggest one critter or less/year = occasional) perhaps a bit larger gun might be a wise choice, especially if you don't have a hunting rifle already.

Yeah, Finn Aaguard (sp?) shot everything on the African Continent with a 7x57. Great for him. I'm not Finn Aaguard. I'm not a professional big game hunter. So if I'm gonna go after dangerous game (I'd argue that bear and moose qualify as dangerous game), I think I'd rather have a bigger gun. Especially since they are available.

That .308 is a darn fine round to punch paper with out to, and past 1000 yards, as many have argued. But, if I'm going to go to AK or Canada after moose, I think I'd rather have the extra energy that a Magnum cartridge can offer (more energy at longer distances) in case my skills aren't as spot on perfect as the locals who harvest several critters each year.

I don't think anyone should go hunting without being responsibly familiar with their hunting gun(s). That being said, a little larger gun might make up for some human errors we all might (and will make) when we take our shots.

To answer the OP, I think it's asking a lot to try and do it all with one gun. Would it be a good idea go have two, with a little 'overlap' in the middle. And, we can always home-load to cater our loads according to our game.

I think I've decided on what my smaller gun will be: .308 for Mulees and smaller, now I need to figure out what my larger one will be for elk and larger.

Reid73
June 9, 2009, 04:47 PM
223/5.56 it's like putting a 1/4 stick of dynamite in the thing you shoot.Everything is relative. Compared to, say, a .177 pellet gun, the .223 is indeed a very powerful round.

cameron.personal
June 9, 2009, 05:09 PM
Everything is relative. Compared to, say, a .177 pellet gun, the .223 is indeed a very powerful round.

Exactly.

Arkel23
June 9, 2009, 05:46 PM
300 wby mag.

Matrix187
June 9, 2009, 06:04 PM
.30-06, 7mm rem mag, 300 win mag, 338 win mag, 270, .308.. Theres more. If I had to choose one: .30-06

saturno_v
June 9, 2009, 06:05 PM
So tell us about some of your encounters with charging grizzly bears and your shooting skills under those conditions...yeah that's what I thought. There is a reason outfitters and guides start with a 338 and go up from there.



Here is another one...did you read the entire thread before posting that statement of yours?? I suggest to you to do it...what my shooting skills or my lack of bear hunting has to do with this???
By the way, no all outfitters start with a 338 Magnum and up or suggest bringing a 50 BMG to camp if you can handle it....:uhoh:

It is not well known as a 'charge stopper', however.


Define "charge stopper"... a charge stopper is a solid CNS hit....30-06 or 458 doesn't matter....you are not going to stop an enraged grizzly at short distance with 460 Weatherby gut shot or shoulder shot....the big boomer may make you feel better...but that's dangerous...

TX Hog Hunter
June 9, 2009, 06:24 PM
Without an official talley I'd say the good ole 06 is winning this one :)

With modern ammo and premium bullets in a good reliable and accurate rifle let's face it there just isn't a lot you can't successfully hunt with the good ole .30-06.

If the airlines looses your ammo or you just plain run out you can get ammo just about anywhere in the world that ammo is available. This could be real important at times.............

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 06:53 PM
.458Lott...it'll kill anything on Earth...including squirrel if loaded right. If you don't want to handload, go with the 45-70, it'll take anything in NA. :)

kludge
June 9, 2009, 09:17 PM
7mm-08

Uncle Mike
June 9, 2009, 10:20 PM
Don't quote me on this, but I was watching one of those Alaska shows...there was a game warden talking about the biggest bear killed to date, was shot by a hunter or fisherman, can't remember, but this guy was not hunting bear... he was defending himself and a friend from a charge....

What rifle did he use.... none other than the 7mm Remington Mag.

Shot that poor bear like 3 or 4 times, in the head.....

If I'm remembering right, it was some time ago....:D

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 10:39 PM
but I was watching one of those Alaska shows...there was a game warden talking about the biggest bear killed to date, was shot by a hunter or fisherman, can't remember, but this guy was not hunting bear... he was defending himself and a friend from a charge....:neener:

AKElroy
June 9, 2009, 10:49 PM
The 30-06 has done this for 100 years.

Ditto. 103, in fact.

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 10:59 PM
The 30-06 has done this for 100 years.The 45-70 has been thumpin' for 136 years. :p

kwelz
June 9, 2009, 11:14 PM
I say .308.

elktrout
June 9, 2009, 11:42 PM
Objectively, we have to admit that numerous existing calibers could qualify, and all for valid reasons. The problem is that too many assumptions go along with the description of "all around" caliber.

"All around" to a resident of Alaska is likely different than "all around" to a resident of Virginia, primarily because each has a different concept of the typical game that would fall into the definition.

But my choices are segregated. Primary use in Alaska: .338 or bigger, largely because of the danger involved. Primary use in the lower 48: 30-06 or magnum in 7mm or 30 cal.

blackops
June 12, 2009, 04:51 AM
So tell us about some of your encounters with charging grizzly bears and your shooting skills under those conditions...yeah that's what I thought. There is a reason outfitters and guides start with a 338 and go up from there.

Why don't you tell us about yours as well! This isn't actualy fact, but I'm going to assume 99 percent of shots on bears aren't when they are charging preparing to induldge on you for a meal. In most all cases the bear never even knows the hunters are present. Unless you are using a bow will a bear make any kind of contact and I have seen a bear charge at a guy after a guide called him in and the black bear received a Rage broadhead straight through the chest, ran away, and blead to death. Not all guides start with a 338 either.

saturno_v
June 12, 2009, 06:00 AM
For those that think that a 30-06 is marginal on the big bears, read the first comment on the MidwayUsa page for the 220 gr. Nosler Partition

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris S. of Juneau, AK

Date posted: 8/23/2003

This bullet is truly a heavy weight performer king when it come to 30 cal. bullets. I took a nice 7 1/2 ft brown bear with this bullet in 30-06 (2550 fps) that was causing trouble around are camp near Yakutat, AK. the fall of 2001. Shot was taken at 40 yards broadside chest through the right shoulder. Dropped the bear in his tracks. The Nosler 220 Partition drove a ping pong ball size hole through the bear that exit through the shoulder. Impressive! And accurate! It is my go bullet when my shots will be less then 200 yards in the 30-06.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=427028

Do you define this result marginal??? :what::eek:

RugerOldArmy
June 12, 2009, 09:52 AM
Saturno_v,

What I don't think you're considering objectively is:

- Brown Bears skewed this question. I'm sure you've heard the expression 'Big Five', and have some familiarity with hunting is Africa. I would consider a costal brown bear dangerous game. Personally, I'd consider a Kodiak more dangerously capable than a lion. In Africa, most countries have a MINIMUM cartridge bore/caliber requirement of .375. (Some specifically have exceptions listed for 9.3x62.)

- I think everbody would consider .30-06 a fine rifle/hunting cartridge 'for all North American game, with the exception of great bears. (If it wasn't a 'Rifle' Forum, a 12 Ga. shotgun would probably be the most flexible tool, with a caveat on range.) If the question was posed that way, personally, I'd have chosen .270 Win, for IME, it handles light bullets better, as a rule, than the '06.

- Many, and I for one, simply consider various cartridge offerings, different tools for different jobs. Given the context that we get to pick, based on personal preference, we're more inclined to choose cartridges with chamberings not necessarily in our gunsafes. (Although I do have a CZ550 FS in 9.3x62, my reccomendation, in my gunsafe.)

- Tales of 06'(s) taking brown bears are commonplace. Jack Oconnor even took a brownie with a .270. That doesn't make it ideal.

- Considering an '06 a DGR is a little on the optimistic side. Would you consider standard DGR chamberings (like the .458 Win Mag, the .416, the Lott, and the Nitro Express cartridges) UNSUITED to DGR?

- We've all heard/saw folks that had too much gun for them to shoot. That doesn't preclude the fact that others have no issue with it. .30-06 is probably a cartridge EVERYBODY can shoot without flinching, which is a plus for it. That doesn't mean the other tools/options should be eliminated from consideration.

- Dangerous game cartridges DO have advantages over an '06. Would you deny that, for example, a .375 H&H loaded with solids (as DGRs are in Africa) would be more likely to: fulfill a bear hunting goal of breaking both of a bears shoulders...or...be less likely to be deflected on their path to vitals by hitting bone?

- Where is the rule that a bit more power is a bad thing? (I guess that could come from the poll, but assuming great bears were the question.) Note that you claimed my perspective was overkill, but I had merely chosen two cartridges that I can create from your .30-06 brass: .35 Whelen or 9.3x62. Not much more recoil, significantly more power. I'm basically just necking-up your brass to .35 or .366.)


Chris S. of Juneau, AK

Date posted: 8/23/2003

This bullet is truly a heavy weight performer king when it come to 30 cal. bullets. I took a nice 7 1/2 ft brown bear with this bullet in 30-06 (2550 fps) that was causing trouble around are camp near Yakutat, AK. the fall of 2001. Shot was taken at 40 yards broadside chest through the right shoulder. Dropped the bear in his tracks. The Nosler 220 Partition drove a ping pong ball size hole through the bear that exit through the shoulder. Impressive! And accurate! It is my go bullet when my shots will be less then 200 yards in the 30-06.


With respect to that Midway review as anything telling: Consider the points above, and that it was a small brown bear shot from an ideal angle. Coastal brownies can get 10ft or greater.

Perhaps I'm smitten with what I read, beyond Midways' site. For another perspective read: 'The Last Ivory Hunter' by Capstick, which is a true story of Walter Wally Johnson. True: it's not about hunting great bears, but goes beyond hunting elephants, and has a lot of good stories about what can go wrong hunting dangerous game. (There was a good story in there, as well, about a lady hunting Cape Buffalo, and lion, with a 7x57, pretty much making your point that a lesser cartridge can work. I don't think you'd read this an conclude it is ideal though.) Another good read would be 'Safari' by Capstick, that specifically has a chapter on DGR(s), and conclusions by the author, based on his experience.

Overall, this thread, solicited choices in tools. You pick yours, we'll pick ours.

SeekHer
June 12, 2009, 10:52 AM
As deer have been taken with a .223 it isn't my first choice for them nor is a .308/.30/06 the ideal thing for Grizzly/Brown bear...

I don't want to have to make my shots fit an underpowered rifle, not do I want the chance of wounding a big bear or not cleanly killing any other animal I'm hunting and in Alaska (and elsewhere) that means moose and other regions elk...

I also want something that is flat shooting that I may take a sheep or goat or antelope with it at distance and above all I don't want to fear flinching every time I pull the trigger from excessive recoil...

I would nominate any of the .300 magnums, H&H, Win Mag, WSM, RUM with a second choice the 8mm Rem Mag (.323) that Jarrett created and finally the .340 Weatherby -- one of my true favourite do everything calibers...Anothe choice would be the 9.3x62mm (.366)

federalfarmer
June 12, 2009, 10:56 AM
.300 Win Mag

saturno_v
June 12, 2009, 01:24 PM
RugerOldArmy

You are absolutely right that a big Brownie is a tougher and bigger animal than a Lion.

Many expert African hunters consider the legal minimum 375 H&H in some countries for lions, quite honestly, ridiculous....Rhino and Elephant it's another story...

There is DGR and DGR....a Lion is a soft skinned 500 lb max animal...An Elephant is a thick skinned 13.000 lb animal.....

Of course they can show an incredible will and determination to live but...they are still a 500 lb max thin skinned animals....an '06 with the proper load can get to the CNS (the only real assured charge stopper) from any angle at typical charging distance....heck, some heavy premium 30-06 loads would pass Simba from brisket to butt at very short range...rage, adrenaline, everything you want....but the size and body structure is what it is....

Yes more power can be useful...but not as much as many believe....and the advantage can be voided by less accuracy because of heavy recoil (if you cannot shoot them as comfortably as you would do with a lesser caliber)

H&H Hunter put it perfectly..."In my case I shoot a 375 H&H comfortably and easily as I shoot a 22......" more power to him...but some sunday hunters are literally scared to fire their own big boomer rifles....

Of course big calibers have their place and are called for in a lot of situations...but what bothers me (not too much anymore anyway...) is the occasinal nonsensical ignorance (even here on THR) when someone call a 30-06 or a 30-30 a pea shooter....

A charging elephant with a 30-06 is a very different thing...you have to go through enormous bones, incredibly thick skin and so on....power makes a lot of difference...shooting angles makes a lot of difference....when we talk about Rhino or big Dumbo, a stout 30-06 load may be able to get to the vitals from certain angles in certain conditions....in others the bullet may just lodge in layers of fat and/or bones...but lions with a tough heavy 06 bullets at 40 yards??? pick up basically any angle and the bullet would shatter everything on its path.....

If that Midwayusa comment is to be believed, by the behaviour of the bullet I do not think it would have made much difference if the bear was a bit bigger...it seems to me that shot put down that bear with authority...at that distance a properly built and heavy 06 bullet would get into the vitals or CNS no matter what....

Finally I would agree that a shotgun with Brenneke Black Magic 3", Dixie Slugs or similar is the most effective bear stopper out there for ther money.....I would take my $200 Mossberg pump stuffed with 6 Brenneke thumpers than any bolt action is any exotic African calibers, 30-06, 338, whatever, any time fo the day for bear stopping purpose...

And actually, for purely defense purpose, this is the suggestion of many AK guides: Shotguns + Brenneke.

penny
June 12, 2009, 04:43 PM
12 gauge:):neener:

Maverick223
June 12, 2009, 04:47 PM
12 gaugeNot a caliber. :neener:

penny
June 12, 2009, 04:55 PM
:):D:):D

Reid73
June 12, 2009, 06:33 PM
Re choosing a 12 gauge for hunting all N. American big game, I find myself in agreement with Chuck Hawks (http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm):
Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds!

DRYHUMOR
June 12, 2009, 06:59 PM
6.5x55

skoro
June 12, 2009, 07:37 PM
30-06

High Planes Drifter
June 12, 2009, 08:50 PM
.30-06


I did a once in a lifetime hunt in South Africa about 10 years ago. Only hunted plains game ranging from Bush Buck to Eland. The recommended caliber for this hunt was .375 H&H, .338, or .340 Weatherby. I chose the .340 Weatherby and took a 30-06 as a back up rifle. In day 5 of a 14 day hunt, my rifle was dropped in the rocks and the scope damaged beyond repair. I used the 30-06 the rest of the hunt.

While the .340 WM defintely did its job, so did the 30-06. I used handloads using 200 grain nosler partitions. It performed perfectly and I could not ask for more, nor need more cartridge. The last animal I shot was a large Zebra. 280 yard shot. When they cleaned it, they found the perfectly mushroomed nosler partition bullet just inside the hide on the opposite side of the body in the shoulder. I have been sold on the 30-06 since then and it is now my only hunting cartridge.

The 30-06 cartridge has ultimate availibilty just about anywhere on the planet, OKA 7.62 x 63, is a handloaders dream easily handling a wide range of bullets up to 220 grains, it is accurate, and it is boringly reliable. It has been doing its job well for over 100 years. You can not go wrong with the 30-06.

If I lived in Grizzly country though, I would opt for the .375 H&H for safe measure.

Thats incredible !

rocinante
June 12, 2009, 09:25 PM
United States Military .30 caliber M1906, or also known as:

.30-06 Springfield

I have always been puzzled by this caliber name and now I know.

Legionnaire
June 12, 2009, 09:56 PM
.30-06 ... or .308

SeekHer
June 13, 2009, 01:15 AM
Maverick223 -- Quote:
12 gauge

Not a caliber.

Sorry, but have you ever heard of a 4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 bore rifle?

Maverick223
June 13, 2009, 02:03 AM
4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 bore rifleYes, as well as 2 Bore...but that doesn't change the fact that none of the above are calibers.

EDIT to Add: The caliber is a unit of measurement of the bore's diameter (typ. in inches or millimeters), a bore/gauge is the number of projectiles (typ. refers to round lead balls) per pound.

FROGO207
June 13, 2009, 02:17 AM
I would choose a 30-06 for all around hunting although it would not be ideal for large bear. However I would choose that over a 270. In my thoughts I would break it up with a 243 and a 338 for my TWO choices and be lots happier with that decision.

blackops
June 13, 2009, 04:11 AM
When I started this thread I figured it would be a hit. Man was I right. It seems that a lot of threads have been opinionated around killing the big bad bear and larger game, but that technically wasn't the question. No the 270 wouldn't be my first choice to take a brownie, but it is certainly not incapable of handling the job. From squirrels, rabbits, pigs, cats, coyote, deer, pronghorn, bears etc I still have to say the 270 would be the best. The larger calibers offer the security when handling very large game, but as for the rest of wild life it's just overkill. Anyways everyone has their own opinion and that’s what makes us different.

RugerOldArmy
June 13, 2009, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Maverick223 -- Quote:
12 gauge
Not a caliber.


Sorry, but have you ever heard of a 4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 bore rifle?

Quote:
4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 bore rifle


Yes, as well as 2 Bore...but that doesn't change the fact that none of the above are calibers.

EDIT to Add: The caliber is a unit of measurement of the bore's diameter (typ. in inches or millimeters), a bore/gauge is the number of projectiles (typ. refers to round lead balls) per pound.

While we're splitting hairs, 'caliber' isn't a correct term either. .30-06, for example, is a 'cartridge', one may say 'chambering', but is .308 'caliber'. The only thing is that 'caliber' is so misused in this way, most folks know what you mean. What drives me nuts, however, is when you're reading posts on the reloading forum, where folks ask about reloading '7mm' or '.308'. You're not always going to get good info, making such a mistake.

Bore designations DO imply caliber. As stated, it came from the blackpowder days, and referred to the 'caliber' of a pure lead (always) ball/sphere, if there were <bore #> to-a-pound balls.

I shot a 4-bore replica (Dutch Roer) ivory-hunting-era muzzleloader with a 1700 Gr patched round ball, over 400-ish Gr FFg, once. I'd not do it again. ;)

I can't even imagine a shooting a 2 bore. :what:

earlthegoat2
June 13, 2009, 11:12 AM
45-70 and handloading

moonzapa
June 18, 2009, 05:28 AM
my vote is for the 30-06. Truth be known, Jack O'connor admitted that the 30-06 was more versatile than his beloved 270 Win. I've never felt undergunned with mine. I'm really tired of hearing about the short mags, magnum, etc. We have a syndrome here in Texas, and I see it a lot. It's called the iron deer syndrome. Hunters miss their game, or make bad shots and blame it on the caliber, then they go out and by a MAGNUM. Give me a break!!!! I'll get off my soap box now.

lefteyedom
June 18, 2009, 06:13 AM
The 338 Win Mag,

185 to 250 grains covers everything from Whitetail to Polar bear.

Elmer Keith loved it and so do I.

Choclabman
June 18, 2009, 06:21 AM
30-06

Uncle Mike
June 18, 2009, 09:40 AM
the iron deer syndrome. Hunters miss their game, or make bad shots and blame it on the caliber, then they go out and by a MAGNUM.

hehehe... I was commenting on this very phenomenon in a previous post.

This is an excellent way to acquire new rifles from the 'under gunned' crowd.

Burning more powder is not the fix for shoddy marksmanship!:neener:

:D

PS.... I think I already said... but for an 'all' around cartridge'.... 30-06
...and we are getting off on the 'big ol' bar' thing again... OP asks.. "all around rifle" and there it goes to the bear rifle.

Are we to presume that IF your caliber/cartridge selection can extinguish the big bad bear then it can take care of anything else... now that is conceded!

A rifle possessing 'all around' qualities will fall somewhat short on two ends of the spectrum.

Being over powered for the one end of the spectrum, and underpowered for the other end.
But be able to handle the task, no matter what end of the scale.

BBstacker
June 18, 2009, 10:12 AM
Since I reload I would pick my Rem 8mm mag. I can down loaded for deer or up load it for moose or bear.

SaxonPig
June 18, 2009, 10:45 AM
Worthless question. "All North American game" will vary from a couple pounds to half a ton. Which one rifle can do it all? Um... I'm going to go out on a limb and say NONE!

Why do people keep asking this same silly question every three days?

saturno_v
June 18, 2009, 11:40 AM
Worthless question. "All North American game" will vary from a couple pounds to half a ton. Which one rifle can do it all? Um... I'm going to go out on a limb and say NONE!

Why do people keep asking this same silly question every three days?
Today 07:12 AM



In a way you are right but the 30-06 with commercially available bullets from 55 gr. sabots to 240-250 gr. round nose is the one that come closer.....not ideal on the low end or the high end but damn close....

Uncle Mike
June 18, 2009, 12:00 PM
:DWe ARE having fun...right?:D

:D

Mr. Completely
June 18, 2009, 01:02 PM
the reality is that there are dan- few marksmen in this country anymore that can accurately shoot a '06 class cartridge offhand at 50 yards let alone 100 to 150 yds. It would seem to me with the improvements in bullet construction in the last 100 years the 30/06 would be more than adequate for N. America.Just because a mouse likes peanuts does't mean he needs an elephants trunk!

blackops
June 18, 2009, 01:26 PM
Worthless question. "All North American game" will vary from a couple pounds to half a ton. Which one rifle can do it all? Um... I'm going to go out on a limb and say NONE!

Why do people keep asking this same silly question every three days?

Notice every other person had an opinion on there chosen caliber, cartridge, etc. Your the only one to comment in a negative matter. If you have a problem with the thread then why did you post in it? The only thing that is worthless is you and your thread.

Gelgoog
June 18, 2009, 02:05 PM
I think .35 remington will do the job just fine.

ChCx2744
June 18, 2009, 04:20 PM
.45-70 is a great all around hunting round. From what I hear, it can drop anything that roams this country...Don't know about Africa, though.

Maverick223
June 18, 2009, 06:30 PM
I was commenting on this very phenomenon in a previous post.Are you referring to me? A 405gr. .458 traveling at Mach 2 isn't excessive. :sarcasm:

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