Combat 22!


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jambo545
June 7, 2009, 09:42 PM
I wanted to get some opinions on what you guys would think if you HAD to use a 22. I am not looking for those of you who will say ditch it and get a real gun. Seriously if all we had was some sort of tactical 22. Lets here it, from techniques bullets optics what rifle/ pistol that you would use. Becuase I think the mighty 22 might supprise us in some good and bad ways.

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BK
June 7, 2009, 09:44 PM
I think the 10.22 in the right hands would make for a disasterous firefight for the opposing team.

Titan6
June 7, 2009, 09:46 PM
Prayer comes to mind.

PT1911
June 7, 2009, 09:48 PM
I would be more than comfortable with my 10-22. I would equip it with a red dot for putting shots down range with battle accuracy and necessary speed.. depending on the rang of the shots I would aim center mass (longer ranges) and work my way up the torso, neck and to the head the closer the threat came. The 10-22 is has hi capacity mags readily available, very short and light, and has plenty of accuracy to disuad whoever it must, and reliable enough to shoot thousands of rounds without an issue.

chudykGT
June 7, 2009, 09:50 PM
I just bought a Ruger 10.22, and although i have a remy 870 12gauge I still wondered the same thing as you.
I would imagine if you were familiar enough with the rifle, with a hicap mag and it was semi-auto, going for chest shots, and lots of them, would be your best bet, unless you could reliably headshot the assailant.
The first 200 rounds through my ruger garuntee me I will not currently hit a moving target at 30 yards in the standing position. (which I would think is how you want to engage targets)

*edit*
You didn't mention the type of combat.
Home defense? in the average single family dwelling, or appartment/condos
Rural home outdoors with various outbuildings?
The super market?
Mrs Black bear and her cubs hiking in the bush?

hunter25
June 7, 2009, 09:55 PM
If absolutely required I would use it and I believe to good effect.

tjj
June 7, 2009, 09:56 PM
Well you ain't gonna win any firefights with one so I guess a .22 with night vision optics and a can you might have a chance if you go stealthy at night and sleep during the day. Still better than a knife or stick only I guess.

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 09:59 PM
whatever situation comes up to chudykgt

BK
June 7, 2009, 10:00 PM
Tom Frye would probably make quick work of any of us, no matter what we were shooting.

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 10:03 PM
I think this is going to get very commical considering some of you guys think a 22 is slightly better than a stick or knife.:neener::neener:

Justin
June 7, 2009, 10:04 PM
I didn't think that Gunkid got out of Club Fed until sometime next year.

The notion of using a .22 LR firearm as any sort of combat weapon is beyond ridiculous.

Sure, your 10/22 is awesome. I can understand that feeling. But it's no sort of substitute for a weapon chambered in a decent centerfire cartridge.

SquirrelNuts
June 7, 2009, 10:05 PM
I would find cover just as quickly for gunfire from a .22 LR as I would from a .50 BMG. It might be slightly different cover, but I would try to find it just as quickly none the less. Something considered cover for a .22 LR, might merely be considered concealment for a .50 BMG.

Open sights on a Ruger 10/22 - nothing to break, simple, inexpensive, you can upgrade it if you want or leave it as is.

Not the best option, but if you had to...

BK
June 7, 2009, 10:07 PM
I am not looking for those of you who will say ditch it and get a real gun.

Nevertheless, you've found them.

chudykGT
June 7, 2009, 10:11 PM
You also didn't mention if we are talking about pistols or rifles.

Depending on the range of engagment, the .22 is a hell of alot better than a knife.
Thing is, at less than 10 yards, I know a couple guys who could kill me with a knife before I could aim and fire my 10/22.
Against an angry black bear (or any bear for that matter, or an angry moose) I would probably **** myself if all I had was a .22. Hence my 870 with 1 #4 birdshot and 5 slugs

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 10:13 PM
Hey I have plenty of combat proven weapons and use them for my job, I just figured I would start a fun thread to hear peoples ideas but someone always has ruin it thats why I posted that I didn't want the ditch the 22 geta real gun answers. The whole point was if all you had was a 22:banghead:

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 10:17 PM
"from techniques bullets optics what rifle/ pistol that you would use"

Arbor
June 7, 2009, 10:18 PM
22LR is very dangerous, like any hi-speed projectile tearing through your body...

This doesn't need to be argued, and it's pointless, the bodies speak for themselves.

The real problem isn't whether it has the potential. The problem is the unpredictability of small, low powered calibers, since they are more easily stopped by bones and other barriers and they require a heart or central nervous system hit for an instant stop.

I have seen small birds that were hit in the guts by a 22LR, and still managed to fly 100yards away. I have also seen man-sized deer stopped in their tracks by a heart shot from the same rifle. It all depends on where and how many times you hit.

pbearperry
June 7, 2009, 10:19 PM
A 22 semi carbine with high speed hp's and red dot or laser would take care of most close up work.

PT1911
June 7, 2009, 10:20 PM
Come on Jambo.. you havent seen the newest technology that allows you to keep an AR/AK in your jejunum or the more expensive one that allows you to keep it in your ileum? and the ammo for them is everywhere or havent you noticed... that damn .22 ammunition is just too heavy and clumsy to carry as compared to equal amounts of .223 or 7.62x39.

Eightball
June 7, 2009, 10:26 PM
Israeli's use 10/22s, I'd personally prefer my Spike's Tactical conversion in my AR15, if for some reason I was stuck with that issue.

http://www.ruger1022.com/images/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg

LibShooter
June 7, 2009, 10:47 PM
In this scenario, is the enemy also equipped with .22s? If so, I'm sure a platoon armed with 10-22s, and maybe one of those double 10-22 hand cranked gatling guns could be effective. Think of all the ammo they could carry. In fact a war waged with rimfires might be a great idea. With modern medical treatment close to the battlefield, maybe the death rate would be lower.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but if you're armed with a .22LR and the enemy is fielding AKs and .50 cals, your best bet is to run. Fast. And you're going to want to zig and zag a little, too.

The Israelis deploy 10-22s against kids throwing rocks. And there are a lot of guys standing around the .22 shooter armed to the teeth with much bigger guns.

shiftyer1
June 7, 2009, 10:52 PM
i think that if a 22 is all u have then you probably haven't taken the time to trick it out either. If its all i had i would spend my time laying low and not taking the fight to the enemy.

Ohio Gun Guy
June 7, 2009, 10:53 PM
I actually think shooting at the farther ranges would be better. If you are using a red dot, thats in too close IMO. I would think you over scope the .22 and get good a calculating drop and make 100+ yd shots, letting the quiet sound mask your position. I think you avoid a fire fight, and do what .22s do best, plink! But from as far out as possible / still effective.


I actually think this tatic would be best with most calibers. In any senario, a firefight is the last thing you want, and would be something of last resort. It should be as unfair for the other side as possible.

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 10:58 PM
I really think a 10/22 witha 50 roundmag full of stingers would set up one serious infectionhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/ups/kamikaze/smilie_shoot.gif

jambo545
June 7, 2009, 11:13 PM
This is kinda what i'm thinking

SHvar
June 7, 2009, 11:14 PM
.22 have been used for silent killing with silencers for many many years. Usually a long barreled pistol though.
Head shots are used with .22, it will kill you just as fast as any other firearm that way.
Dont underestimate the .22 and what you can do with it. Heck, some guy made a video of him bringing down a wild boar with an air rifle, by shooting it in the eye at the right angle.

686+
June 7, 2009, 11:34 PM
While I question the stopping/ending power of a 22lr round at an extended range in social situations, I would not want to be on the recieving end.
If you are laughing at the round you should find a buddy and tell him to try to hit you at 100 yards, but you may want to get your affairs in order first. :neener: (Disclaimer: if you are stupid enough to do it it's your own damn fault.) Really, how many 22lr 40 grain bullets can you catch with your noggin and still keep ticking?

As far as I am concerned, I have placed center shots into clay pigeons at 80+ paces off hand, and hit many squirles, stationary or running, at 100 yards or more. I assure you at 100 yards the Winchester Super-X still went through the squirles. This is with my 10/22 and a cheap Bushnell 3-9 scope, and my body ~20 years younger. :D So, not my first choice, but I would not casually stoll towards the shooter if they were aiming at me.

Macgille
June 7, 2009, 11:51 PM
In case it has slipped your notice, the U.S. Government uses a .22 for it's combat weapon. It's a POS for combat and all the raving in the world won't change that. No penetration, no knock down power at longer ranges and rifles that are delicate and need constant cleaning to even function.

So there!:neener::neener::neener::neener:

Eightball
June 7, 2009, 11:59 PM
Actually, I change my vote--a 10/22 in one of Adkin's Accelerator stocks.

P.B.Walsh
June 8, 2009, 12:10 AM
A 10/22 for general pupose, and a MkII for "sniping".

starkadder
June 8, 2009, 12:21 AM
I have killed just about everything that walks, crawls, flies, or swims in the southern U.S. with a .22 long rifle, it would not be my first choice of SHTF weapons but I would not feel ineffective at all with my M-4 (with the conversion unit), GSG-5 carbine, or my Glenfield mod. 60 ( other than the reloading issue).

All of the usual suspects can say that a .22 is worthless for anything other than punching paper or sniping squirrels, but you tell that to all the "daisy pushers" that were on the receiving end of a .22, because more Americans have been killed by .22's than by .38's, .357's, 9mm's, and .45's combined.

As far as type of ammo, you can't beat off the shelf solid lead long rifle. Hollow points have thier place for improved accuracy, but I would rather have a more solid projectile for better penetration.

And on the effective range issue, best kept under 125 yards. I know that the BBB's (big bore bullies) are laughing thier heads off about now, and I know that it might not be a very effective single round stopper, but I know that I can put three rounds in a 4" circle at fifty yards before they recover from the recoil of their first round.;)


This is this! It's not something else, it's this

Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 12:34 AM
to Macgille I have put more ammo through my 10/22 without cleaning than anything else and it keeps on running as for the 22 bashing I specified that in my first post. It was to get your opinion on what type of 22 and accesories and how you would use it, not if you liked it:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

SimpleIsGood229
June 8, 2009, 12:48 AM
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8rnLxIWGro&feature=related (skip the first 39 seconds.)

:D

Art Eatman
June 8, 2009, 12:57 AM
Sorry, but "combat" would include assaults agains multiple enemies. A .22? Ain't gonna happen. "Defense" is another critter entirely, and it could well be that one might have only a .22 rifle availabe. The reason doesn't matter.

So, if I must defend my local area against probable-odds scenarios, I'd figure that any reliable semi-auto, tube magazine type should do. Or a Ruger 10/22, if spare mags were at hand when trouble started. "If you need more ammo, you don't need more ammo. You need more friends."

As a kid, I could do seriously bad things to chee-chee birds and crows and such with my old Remingtion 550. Some similar sort of rifle should do just as well.

Tactics? Sneaky-snake and cover. Shoot from behind whenever possible. "If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it all wrong."

hub
June 8, 2009, 12:57 AM
I would go with a suppressed, fairly long barreled, bolt action, maybe with some of those aguila 60gr SSS rounds. I think that would be very quiet combination kinda like the movies. With a .22Lr I think your best bet would be to remain hidden in cover and just take pop shots when the opportunity arises.

if not that then maybe this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7elHG1h8-wU&feature=PlayList&p=6CAD3DFC12949FEF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=58

Float Pilot
June 8, 2009, 01:07 AM
A suppressed, scoped, accurate, 22 LR caliber rifle that nobody knows you have and nobody expects you to use.....

They can laugh right up to the time that the bullet enters their eye socket at 100 yards and the guy next to them has no idea what happened.

Macgille
June 8, 2009, 06:39 AM
Jambo, HOGWASH!!!:neener::neener::neener::neener:

P.B.Walsh
June 8, 2009, 11:16 AM
+1 Float Pilot. :)

elmerfudd
June 8, 2009, 11:20 AM
The fact that you're asking which .22's would be best for this situation means that the question of choosing a gun is open. If that's the case, then don't choose a .22.

Let's just look at the facts. A .22 LR has a short range, doesn't penetrate cover well, has a poor record as a fight stopper and doesn't feed very reliably due to the rim on the cartridge. All these things put together make it a spectacularly poor defensive round.

Now if all you had was a Marlin 60 or a 10/22 and you were in a defensive situation, then you go with what you got, but if you have any ability to choose a more effective cartridge and you don't, well...

And just so you don't think I'm down on rimfires, I'm not. I think the .22 LR is one of the best cartridges out there. I'd just confine it's use to plinking, target shooting and hunting small game. For that it's excellent.

EdLaver
June 8, 2009, 11:33 AM
Hmmm, funny know one mentioned the GSG-5...

SHvar
June 8, 2009, 11:48 AM
I know of multiple situations where someone defending their home (one was a 7 yr old kid) and killed the intruder/attacker with a .22 lr.
I know of 2 situations where a .22lr fired up in the air by some jerk came down almost a mile away and killed someone, it punched through their skull.
I know of several situations where people survived using a .22lr to hunt anything they needed, including large deer. I know of situations where deer were poached with .22lr over the years (imagine how many times it happens that we dont know about), by making head shots.
If you want to stand on the receiving end of a .22lr go ahead, I sure wont, I know what they can do.

P.B.Walsh
June 8, 2009, 12:04 PM
Seriously, I wound never want to be shot by a .22, or for that matter, I ain't gonna stand in front of a Daisy Red Rider BB gun.

gunsandreligion
June 8, 2009, 12:47 PM
In combat I personally would take an american 180 if I could get my hands on one.:D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 8, 2009, 01:01 PM
If I HAD to make a "combat .22", it would be one which had a 1 in 9" twist rate, optimized for Aguila SSS 60 gr rounds, and was suppressed, because my idea of "combat" with a .22 is shoot to slow down the enemy, then escape, and quietness facilitates escape.

In combat I personally would take an american 180 if I could get my hands on one.

Or wait, that's even better!

Hey wasn't it the main character on "Shooter" who used a .22 to kill one of the bad guys? At 200 yards. Unsupported while standing. While on a moving boat! :rolleyes:

gvnwst
June 8, 2009, 01:11 PM
Hey wasn't it the main character on "Shooter" who used a .22 to kill one of the bad guys? At 200 yards. Unsupported while standing. While on a moving boat!
None other than the guy who can watch the bullet hit the target a mile away shooting a .408 CT...:D

I would get something like a 16" barrel either interraglly suppressed, or with a wraparound suppressor, and that can go either single shot or semi/full auto. (think a automatic with a bolt stop) I agree with Dr. Tad about the 1/9 twist for 60gr SSS ammo.

Packman
June 8, 2009, 01:17 PM
I ain't gonna stand in front of a Daisy Red Rider BB gun.

Those suckers HURT! My buddy thought that was funny as heck when we were kids. He didn't think it was so funny after his dad took his BB gun. He never saw it again. (Had a miserable summer too). Nonetheless, even a low-power BB gun leaves an impressive little welt.

Justin
June 8, 2009, 01:22 PM
I know of multiple situations where someone defending their home (one was a 7 yr old kid) and killed the intruder/attacker with a .22 lr.
I know of 2 situations where a .22lr fired up in the air by some jerk came down almost a mile away and killed someone, it punched through their skull.
I know of several situations where people survived using a .22lr to hunt anything they needed, including large deer. I know of situations where deer were poached with .22lr over the years (imagine how many times it happens that we dont know about), by making head shots.

No one is debating whether the .22 LR is or can be a dangerous round. That's a blatant straw-man argument. As a combat or self-defense round it's about the poorest choice you could possibly make due to reasons already listed in this thread.

If you want to stand on the receiving end of a .22lr go ahead, I sure wont, I know what they can do.

I don't want to stand on the receiving end of a .177 caliber airgun pellet, or a kid shooting rocks out of a slingshot, either. Does that make them adequate choices for a combat weapon, too?

Robert
June 8, 2009, 01:27 PM
I don't want to stand on the receiving end of a .177 caliber airgun pellet, or a kid shooting rocks out of a slingshot, either. Does that make them adequate choices for a combat weapon, too?

Yes, but only if you carry them in a tactical wheel barrow.

Zundfolge
June 8, 2009, 01:30 PM
Gus wins the thread!

TeamRush
June 8, 2009, 01:39 PM
Special Operations have been using .22 LR and .22WMR for years with very good success,
But they get NO RESPECT.

Everyone from Aircraft Hijack Response Teams
(.22 isn't likely to over penetrate and kill the aircraft or civilians/hostages)

Recoil is EXTREMELY CONTROLLABLE,
And since 'special operations' teams normally attack the head of a target, even things like body armor aren't an issue.

Easy to suppress, inexpensive, reliable, accurate and super controllable they are VERY GOOD for close combat terrorist elimination operations.

I would expect to see the .17 HMR and .17 M2 start showing up in special operations larders pretty soon also.
Better range and accuracy an same controllability as the .22 LR and WMR...

Nothing like a suppressed .22 for taking out tires, lights, sensitive controls, ect.
And when directed at the correct body part, will stop a target just like the larger, more 'Manly' calibers will...

Personally,
All the 'Tactical' .22 Rimfire calibers I've seen are usually in CIVILIAN stocks,
Not those plastic things with mounting rails everywhere!

Zundfolge
June 8, 2009, 01:49 PM
Special Operations have been using .22 LR and .22WMR for years with very good success,
Popping unsuspecting folk in the head when they aren't looking isn't "Combat" nor is it "Self Defense" ... which is the role firearms play in the lives of normal people.

RP88
June 8, 2009, 02:02 PM
I would not be using a .22 in combat. If that was all I had, I would stick a decent scope onto my Savage MKII, keep about 50-75 yards of distance, and aim for the throat or back of the neck of any unsuspecting enemy walking through. No need to be confrontational with a .22 rifle.

CoRoMo
June 8, 2009, 03:39 PM
...what you guys would think if you HAD to use a 22. Seriously if all we had...

Rather than brow beat you into your shoes like many of the posters here have chosen to do, I'll answer your question honestly.

I think Art nailed it. I wouldn't go into offensive mode with a .22lr gun, but for defense, when nothing else is available, would of course be better than nothing. And I believe, better than a knife.

That tactical 10/22 would only be used to aid my retreat. Holding the .22 rifle in my hands would give me the slightest measurable amount of comfort above not having a firearm at all, but it wouldn't make me confident in any manner.

I don't understand the idea that a knife would be better than a rifle, even if the rifle is a rimfire. I don't believe for a minute that if any of us were trying to defend ourselves in a life & death situation, and the nearest table held a large fixed blade knife and a 10/22, that anyone here would pass up the gun for the blade.
Maybe the edged-weapon-trained ninja, but not me.

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 05:04 PM
Thank yo CoMoRo, I guess most of the people on this topic failed to read the part where I stated " if that was all you had" You people need to quit trying to make my fun question an argument and question peoples ability to choose a propper weapon for combat. I for one would not choose it, but I figured it would get some interesting posts considering all you had was a 22. so I guess I need to change the title to WHICH IS BETTER FOR COMBAT A 50 BMG or a 22lr. You people need to read the damn post and quit trying to tell people they are dumb for their response!!!!!!!!!!:fire::fire::fire:

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 05:07 PM
NO king ghidora WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT COMBAT RIFLES we are talking about the 22lr DOES EVERYONE HEAR THAT. IF THE 22LR WAS THE ONLY RIFLE ON THE PLANET!!!!!!!!

Zundfolge
June 8, 2009, 05:36 PM
IF THE 22LR WAS THE ONLY RIFLE ON THE PLANET!!!!!!!!
If that was the case then I'd keep my .22 for harvesting food. With home made body armor I could waltz across a line of 10/22 packing foes with a pointy stick and probably win the war.

P.B.Walsh
June 8, 2009, 05:53 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^ that's great!!!!! :):):):):):):):):):):):)

jambo545
June 8, 2009, 06:11 PM
I guess I'm not good enough for you combat experts that professionaly argue on the internet, I give! have a nice day arguing with yourselves.

JDGray
June 8, 2009, 06:21 PM
A .22 would work great on face, eyeball shots, can't fight if you can't see. Would be better suited in a close range sniper roll. Groin shots, just to be mean:evil:

Dr. Fresh
June 8, 2009, 07:24 PM
I wouldn't mind having an SBR 10/22 converted to full auto with a big mag.

It'd be more like a small-caliber SMG than a rifle at that point.

TheWarhammer
June 8, 2009, 07:40 PM
Reprinted from http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.

The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.

http://www.ruger1022.com/images/Israeli_Sniper6_250.jpg
Civilian sniper with the Ruger 10/22 sniper rifle (right), Designated Marksman (middle) and a spotter (left) during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories May 2000.

http://www.ruger1022.com/images/Israeli_ruger-2_250v.jpg
Operator armed with the Ruger 10/22 Suppressed sniper rifle during the Israeli-Palestinian clashes in the Occupied Territories, October 2000.

http://www.ruger1022.com/images/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg
Same caption as above. Note that the sniper has a Sig Sauer handgun tacked in his vest.

Justin
June 8, 2009, 07:44 PM
Closed at the request of the original poster.

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