Why do I group like this?


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Sweden
June 7, 2009, 10:45 PM
I love to hear what everyone says about this. I'm not the best rifleman in the world, but I ain't a novice either. I own and shoot multiple rifles in all kinds of calibers, very frequently. I have a particularly disturbing issue with a Remington 722 in 257 Roberts. The last five times I have shot this rifle, I have shot it as follows: POI is always the center of the diamond. The first round strikes high and a little to the right. Second round fired will impact slightly lower and dead center, next round high and little right again, last round impacts dead center again. See picture from today's range session, 100yrds.

I have probably six targets that have come home looking like this. I'm not 100% the old weaver mounts or Banner scope aren't moving, but more likely suspect myself to be the stimulus? As you can see the rifle is a good shooter. Any comments? Thanks

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Titan6
June 7, 2009, 10:48 PM
How long do you wait between shots?

Sweden
June 7, 2009, 10:55 PM
Usually 20-60 seconds, slow aimed shots. I was at the range for 3.5 hours and only shot 26 rounds of High Power. Usually 2-3 shots a string. The group pictured was shooting a cold rifle (it was sitting unused getting snowed on for 30-40 minutes:D) before I shot the above in roughly 2 minutes.

BK
June 7, 2009, 11:03 PM
I've known of Weaver mounts to be the problem, but there's no way I could make that case with your gun. Check them out anyway.

hunter25
June 7, 2009, 11:06 PM
Could be the mounts, scope or most likely the bedding. I would free float he barrel and bed the action.

flipajig
June 8, 2009, 12:03 AM
The first thing i would check is my scope and mounts. A stock problem is usually a series of string rounds. bedding a free floting the barrel and action will improve any rifle.

jim147
June 8, 2009, 12:36 AM
I had a rifle shoot the same group as yours. I changed the scope and fixed it. It may not be you problem but it was mine.

jim

t george
June 8, 2009, 02:01 AM
I had the same problem with a rem 700 it grouped just fine! 2 shots in a nice tight group then 2 more in a nice tight group a few inches away.... the back ring was loose on the scope base... this might now be your problem, but i would check it out!

BullitHolz
June 8, 2009, 02:42 AM
Try this, shoot a round and then before shooting the next, take a screwdriver and tap the scope with the handle. Take the next shot and then do it again. If the shots suddenly start grouping you have an issue with the scope.

On the low end scopes the recoil of the rifle can cause the erector assy in the scope move around with each shot, tapping the scopes body with the screwdriver often will cause the scopes internals to "snap" back to where they were and then the POA/POI match up again.

Uncle Mike
June 8, 2009, 09:15 AM
Could be the scope... most likely a bedding issue.

Check those action screws... tight to the 'correct' torque?

-does the action still wiggle around in the stock.. most likely hard to spot, static.

Look at the simple stuff first, action screws, mounts and screws, scope(do a tracking test), a cool barrel is a happy and more accurate barrel...subsequent shots should be taken with the barrel at the same temperature as the second shot... that's right, let it cool.

is the barrel making contact with the stock, on the 'side' of the barrel, ect...

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 8, 2009, 09:58 AM
Weird. I'd say the first step should be have someone else shoot it, and see what happens.

Arbor
June 8, 2009, 10:08 AM
I would look into the scope, I have a Bushnell Banner (not for long) on my AR15 that has shifted POI a couple times pretty badly. It is also prone to parallax errors, I think, because the last several groups I've shot were about 1MOA with the first three, then the fourth shot ruined the group every time :banghead: I finally gave up and ordered a new scope.

NavyGuy
June 8, 2009, 01:51 PM
I had the same problem too except mine were three-shot groups. All within an inch at 100 yards, the next three shot group whould be within an inch but elsewhere on the paper. Double checked the rings, but it ended up being the scope. Internals jumping maybe?

MCgunner
June 8, 2009, 09:58 PM
A 722 in .257 Roberts. Be still my heart. :D

Mine puts 'em all into a 3/4" group and I've never bedded or floated it. However, that can be a problem. But, like others here say, I have had a scope take a dump on me. That's what I'd suspect first, or a loose mount bolt or something.

Sweden
June 9, 2009, 01:50 PM
Thanks for all the comments so far. Is there a consensous? Scope, Ring/base, bedding?

This scope is probably as old as the rifle, 1956 vintage. However, I've never had a scope go out that was still crazy accurate, only with two distinct POIs.

If I can find it amongst all my stuff, I've got a NIB VXIII 2-8x36 somewhere that can be used for testing. However, I plan on using this kill-stick for this years hunt and although my speed goat tag is 13 weeks away, I can only be sure I've got time for one more range trip between then. Would you keep it as is, or risk it testing the Leupold?

Reid73
June 9, 2009, 01:59 PM
Interesting problem. As has been suggested, I would ask someone else to shoot it before I started checking the mounts, scope and bedding.

my speed goat tag is 13 weeks away, I can only be sure I've got time for one more range trip between thenI thought you shot "very frequently"? :confused:

Sweden
June 9, 2009, 02:30 PM
Shooting frequently, yes. Next three months, no.

In addition to probate issues, evicting tentants, moving primary residence, summertime with my boy, the day job w/ travel, oh and a 6 weeks assignment out of the country, a great deal of the next thriteen weeks is accounted for in hour increments. Go ahead and ask what I'm doing on Aug 22, I'll check my planner and get back with ya, yes it's that busy. :D Not a typical summer by any means. :(

Sweden
June 9, 2009, 02:31 PM
Double tap

kmrcstintn
June 9, 2009, 07:40 PM
cold barrel vs hot barrel trajectory dynamics

rangerruck
June 9, 2009, 08:24 PM
simple; and it has been allready stated, if your targets allways get shot, back and forth, back and forth, then you should be proud; you are shooting just fine, and in the same place all the time!!!! I will state it matter of factly.
Bedding. the easy way to find this out for yourself, is go to Home Despot, and get you some aluminum tape. put a couple-3 layers in the bottom of the stock, under the receiver, and a couple on the sides of the stock, next to the receiver/mag well. make it snug and tight. then, if you have some guts, channel out the stock a bit. or first, just try it with the tape. then go shoot 5 rounds- bet they end all up in about 1 place.
now then, don't leave it as tape for bedding; it will eventually absorb water, and really screw you up. plus the old remmy 722's and such, are notorious for
wood warping.

DRYHUMOR
June 9, 2009, 08:36 PM
I'd agree with most everyone else's posts.

I'd try the new scope though, if it happens again then it's narrowed down to bedding.

When I try to shoot for proving zero, I take 2 rifles out, set up 2 targets. Shoot one then the other, it gives both rifles a fairly equal time of heating/cooling between shots.

docsleepy
June 10, 2009, 10:44 PM
Something is moving during the recoil and has two stable positions, one right and one left.

Sure could be the scope or the action.

Savage evidently has a video out that shows how much an action moves during a shot (high speed photography) and evidently (I haven't seen it) shows that their new accustock system results is way less movement.

For my .02 worth: when I bedded my Savage 12FV I wasn't sure about the way the action screws tightened up. In the process of shooting newly bedded action, at one point I loosened the bolts and tighted snug and but not really tight.

I got 4 shots just like yours.

Then I tightened the bolts really well: and got two shots that were (r/l anyway) right in the middle of the two groups.

So I can't tell you whether something in the scope or something in the stock is moving, but something is moving. Should be easy to put a different scope on it (even a Walmart scope) and see if it is the scope. If it isn't the scope, then most likelky it is the action.

By the way I did not try aluminum tape, but I did try duct tape as temporary bedding. Duct tape doesn't work. Aluminum tape might be a lot stiffer and might work as a temporary test there.

In the bedding, it seems to be very important to bed the recoil lug properly and there are arguments on exactly what is best. But anyway, it doesn't seem to do any harm (unless you accidentally glue the thing in)....

gordon

jim147
June 11, 2009, 12:27 AM
Do you have another rifle?
You don't have much free time between now and when you go hunting. You owe it to the game to make a clean kill.
Do the first two shoots always hit like your target? If so you should be good to go if your confident in it. If you are not sure of your rifle I would take another or find some time to work on the one you have.

jim

Arbor
June 11, 2009, 12:46 AM
Without trying a different (better) scope, there is really no way to know. You have to narrow down the variables.

Sweden
June 11, 2009, 12:08 PM
Do you have another rifle?.......You owe it to the game to make a clean kill.

Yes I own two 270's that would be legal/suitable for this hunt. Both sub MOA, the Tikka a fair bit lighter than the 722. However, for this hunt, I have very personal reasons for wanting to use my grandpa's rifle. Cognizant of ethical hunting, as configured I'd need to limit my range to ~250 with this rifle for those little goat. I am a very cautious big game hunter, I've never needed to shoot an animal more than once. I've passed countless shots others would/have taken. No I havenít shot 100's of game, but I've bagged plenty of deer, antelope, elk, bear, and pig.

I see a rifle that needs attention, but is still shooting near MOA. Two clicks to the left, and all my shots would impact within 4" of aim out past all reasonable hunting ranges. Perfectly suitable for any hunting rig, I preference my rifles a bit more accurate.

Having said that, I took the leap of faith last night and replaced the scope and rings. I didn't have replacement bases, so we'll see if the old weavers hold. Warne rings and a Leupold VX-III B&C. :cool: If that doesn't correct the issue I'm going to start adjusting action keys.

uh-oh
June 11, 2009, 12:59 PM
How was your target secured? I had similar groupings the first time I took out a new 700 and was sighting in during a gusty day. I didn't know what was causing the double groups until I went out to the berm to lay out some clays and realized the wind was shifting the frame front-to-back every now and then.

Sweden
June 11, 2009, 01:37 PM
Now that is thinking outside the box. In this case, not a concern. Target was on cardboard, secured in place by 6x6's and metal reinforced boarder.

dubbleA
June 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
Hard to tell from a single group but you stated that the rifle averages this type.The group posted is closer to 2 moa rather than one. I would shoot it out to the maximum distance you are comfortable with and then see what the results are. It doesnt take much accuracy for a 100 yard shot on a deer size vital area, but the further out you shoot, inconsistentcies are going to be magnified.

bigione
June 11, 2009, 02:17 PM
I had a weaver on my30-06 that would sight in fine , then be off later. Finally found the back scope base needed about a 1/8 turn tightening. No further problems.

RonE
June 11, 2009, 09:34 PM
My guess would be that you have a parallex problem with your vintage scope. Accuracy is probably ok for the rifle but your cheek weld on the stock and you eye position behind the scope is probably the problem. Try the Leopold scope and see if the problem doesn't go away. If you put your rifle in a vice and look through the scope and the point of aim moves when you move your head right or left or up or down you need a better scope or you need to hold the same every time.

Sweden
June 12, 2009, 12:12 PM
Ron,

As happen stance would have it, my old-man came into town last night all the way from Bosnia. (He's here for just a few days visiting with my boy) He shot the piss out of this rifle/scope combo in his younger days, but it's been 30 years since he last shot it. I talked with him about the grouping/ rifle some this morning and he disctincly remembers that rifle needing a PERFECT cheeck weld. I mean without skipping a beat he suggested cheek weld and started telling stories. I can probably count on one hand the number of times we have physically seen each other since the mid 90's, so I'm really hoping to get some trigger time with the old man. I will report back with results of the new ring/scope combo. I really appreciate all the comments, thanks!

Sweden
July 19, 2009, 09:40 PM
Well, I was not able to shoot with my old man, but I have squeezed in a few days at the range over the last several weeks. I had only been able to get this rifle on paper the last trip. Today again at 100 yrds, I'm aiming at the 1" circle under the large target. I get in three decent shots and go check. These hits are on the tape below my POA. A few clicks adjustment and I have her right were I want it. Same POA, next group POI is ~2" high. I'm sure I can do better, but with 15-20 mph winds and not feeling too well, this is good enough for killing.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/SQRSaab/Picture004s.jpg

Heck
July 19, 2009, 10:35 PM
My dad would say you cant shoot. I would say make sure your action is bedded correctly and pitch the weaver mounts. Id try some Warnes or Leupold double dove tail steel mounts and rings.

rangerruck
July 20, 2009, 12:07 AM
this is easy; it is 2 things; a througough cleaning is needed; bedding must be done. Some dudes have been helping a guy from argentina, who had the same prob with a bran new marlin 22-795, but after cleaning and bedding, his flyers have pretty much now dissappeared.
Cleaning is a whole ' nother story, but after a humonguous test, featuring new and old rifles, using all diff kinds of actions, testing on several diff days, with no rest between cleaning, hour rest between cleanings, no cleanings, or a week between cleanings, the final results were across the board; all rifles benefitted from a thorough cleaning, for it's next cold bore first shot , at a target, it allways ended up closer to the group as a whole, and this happened for allmost all the rifles. Except like a ruger bolt action, and a couple of other dogs, that just didn't improve no matter what they did, on it's cold bore shots.
Also I notice you are shooting a 722 remmy; a great rifle no doubt, but notorious for warping of wood, whether you see it or not.
so you will either need to bed it, or really, REALLY , sand out the bbl channel, and get it seriously freefloated.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287321

the reason it is not the scope? your pattern is repeating, and not changing. a bad scope will
do things randomly, and not continously repeat.

WNTFW
July 20, 2009, 01:07 AM
Sweden,
I had a similar problem with a Bushnell Banner which came on a rifle that I won. The eye piece was moving from side to side & up/down. Suprisingly it was not easy to spot.
It is not the magnification ring but the focus ring having slack in it. It won't show up in the base or scope rings.
When the focus ring is locked down it won't happen. If focus ring is not locked down it will move around which appears like the reticle (crosshairs) are moving. I would get 2 consecutive shots with 1/4 to 1/2 apart then a flyer 4" (@100yds) out to the right, elevation dead on, stringing horizontally. Next thing I'd get vertical stringing. Bushnell warrantied it.
Maybe that is your issue.
Good Luck,
WNTFW

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