modern day sten?


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colt.45
June 8, 2009, 12:11 AM
We've seen our fair share of tech-9's, hi point carbines, kel tek's and other "affordable" firearms that turned out as junk. Thinking about the nature of these weapons and their past militairy counterparts like the sten and s&w 76, I imagined a modern version being made that would surpass all previously known performance standards at a realistic price point.

I spent some time coming up with a concept that I think the weapon should be like, should someone actually develop it. What I thought up was a simple carbine that would take the best from both worlds. Starting with the old gun's positive attributes; simple, reliable, rugged all steel construction i'd moderize the concept by designing decent accuracy, ergonomics, functional furniture, effective sights, and optics capability all into the weapon. It could even be designed to have a modularity to it making caliber changes possible. Well planned out, i think a rifle design like thins could storm the civillian market.

If there's one thing the gun market is lacking, it's a good pistol caliber carbine that's not expensive like the AR platforms. Imagine a marlin camp rifle that takes sten or grease gun magazines and only costs $250! A rifle like that could be an affordable way to put more guns into american hands, as well as simply be a useful tool everyone could afford to have as a backup home defense weapon, practice rifle, small game rifle, ect.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks. lemme hear it,
Colt T

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hunter25
June 8, 2009, 12:17 AM
Although I would like more options I love my Kel Tek 2000. 100% reliable and found 33rd glock mags for 35 bucks.

HorseSoldier
June 8, 2009, 12:20 AM
The Sten was kind of junky, as well, really . . .

A $250 pistol caliber carbine that had nice ergonomics and took high cap mags would be a pretty strong competitor in the market, though, I think.

maskedman504
June 8, 2009, 12:30 AM
tec-9s , high points, and kel-tecs

Hahaha.

Hollywood Marine
June 8, 2009, 03:19 AM
I carryed a sten briefly in the distant past. A good, cheap, reliable weapon as I recall. The modern Sterling is its descendant and an excellent arm of that type. It would make a good starting point for a semi-auto carbine I think.

hexidismal
June 8, 2009, 04:20 AM
We've seen our fair share of tech-9's, hi point carbines, kel tek's and other "affordable" firearms that turned out as junk.

I'm not really sure what your qualifications for "junk" are... but by far the large majority of hi point carbines owners and Kel-Tec Sub-2000 owners I've seen online seem to be quite happy with them. I have no experience whatsoever even being near the tec-9, and they seem to be less common than the others in general so I can't comment on that one.

I personally only have the Sub-2000, and I think it's a very good gun ( which incidentally can be made into a truly fantastic gun with some modifications )

Opinion is just that , and you're welcome to yours of course.. but it's hard to really justify saying that everyone OBVIOUSLY sees those guns as junk when they are extremely popular and largely well reviewed all over the internet.

dscottw88
June 8, 2009, 04:27 AM
Why doesn't someone make the MP5? Doesn't this fit the bill? If everyone made them like they do AR's, they'd be cheap.

Mp7
June 8, 2009, 04:44 AM
put a happy-switch on the hi point carbine.....

rcmodel
June 8, 2009, 01:03 PM
It's not as simple as it seems.
You can't just run out and start making blow-back operated carbines based on an old SMG design.

The ATF frowns on anything that fires from an open bolt like all the old SMG's.

So, you take a clean sheet of paper, and make a blowback action with the necessary trigger & disconnector & seperate firing pin to make it fire from a closed bolt.

Pretty soon, you got yourself a Kel-Tec SUB-2000, or Hi-Point carbine.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/hi_point_carbines.html

rc

TeamRush
June 8, 2009, 06:23 PM
...If there's one thing the gun market is lacking, it's a good pistol caliber carbine that's not expensive like the AR platforms...

First off, I'm not 'EVERYONE', but I have been in the gun trade about 40 odd years either as a buyer, user, or dealer,
And I'm former military (Retired),
So as a general rule, I'm pretty accurate with my opinions and beliefs...
-----------------------------

Secondly,
I don't accept that any firearm is 'Junk' simply because SOME GUY on the internet says it's so...

I've had pretty good luck with most of the firearms listed,
With the exception of a Sten Gun, which is a misfiring/jamming machine,

And the Tec-9, which is one of the most worthless pieces of crap ever inflicted on the American market.
-------------------------------

Third,
There is a SMG based CIVILIAN LEGAL pistol/carbine out there

AND,
It's been around for quite a while, but ignored because it's ugly and discount priced...
(Obvoulsy ignored by the 'Internet Experts' too! :fire: )

It's called the 'MAC'/Ingram/Cobray.

Rugged, reliable, fun to shoot, reasonably accurate and CHEAP!
With all kinds of barrel lengths, shoulder stocks, optics mounts, calibers from .380 to .45 ACP it IS the direct descendant of the 'Liberator' used in WW II, and thousands of the MAC 10 models were handed out like candy in Central & South America by the CIA, and they are pretty much still in operation today!

If I were dropping cheap, easy to use firearms behind enemy lines today, I'd drop the Cobray!

I have several of different descriptions, and with a standard 5" barrel I find them accurate, but the basic sights sure leave something to be desired!

Anyway, barrels run from 5" to carbine lengths,
Calibers run from .308 Auto up through 9mm, and I've seen them converted to 10mm, .40 Cal. & .45 GAP along with many factory .45 ACP versions out there.

My 9mm versions were under $100, and the full auto version was under $600 for it, accessories, and extra mags (minus the government application fee).

I just saw a 9mm Carbine version at the gun show for $165 so they aren't terribly expensive even with the impending 'Ban' stampede...
--------------------------------------------------------

"put a happy-switch on the hi point carbine....."

I'll second that!
Don't own one, but I've played with one a couple of times, and I found it to be really fun to shoot! :D

Reid73
June 8, 2009, 06:40 PM
An improved Sten? You're too late. The Sterling L2A1 SMG (aka C1, Canadian version) was designed in the 1940s and introduced into service in the 1950's.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/smgs/Sterling01.jpg

Handgunner
June 8, 2009, 06:43 PM
put a happy-switch on the hi point carbine

I would just be happy with some hi-cap mags for mine. :cuss::banghead:

Guvnor
June 8, 2009, 06:52 PM
I agree. I would love to see someone make a compact, rugged, reliable old-school carbine with a straight stock instead of a pistol grip. Kinda of like the old soviet PPSh-41.

Chamber it in 9mm or .45acp, give it a good set of military-style aperture sights, and keep the cost affordable. Id be first in line to get one!

Dr. Fresh
June 8, 2009, 07:28 PM
The Sten is in a totally different class than the Hi-Point or the Kel-Tec. It's meant to be a cheap, easy to produce submachine gun. The HP and KT are semi-auto carbines intended mostly for plinking and perhaps self-defense. Totally different weapons.

A modern day civilian Sten is only going to see the light of day if they repeal the NFA.

Autopistola
June 8, 2009, 08:16 PM
I once again revisited the tube gun carbine idea when I saw pics of the new Benelli Vinci. Just delete the inertia system and add a gas tube.

colt.45
June 8, 2009, 09:12 PM
Sorry for mis labeling those guns as junk. That's just my opinion. I just think they all have a magazine or ergonomic problem that could have been avoided but wasn't.

The main benefits of my design idea would be extreme simplicity. Also the idea of having two trigger frame configurations avalable would open the gun to alot more furniture options. one trigger frame with a pistol grip to be used with a wire stock, one designed to accept simple wooden stocks like the ppsh that guvnor described.

anyway sorry if i offended anyone. thanks for your time.

Dr.Rob
June 8, 2009, 10:03 PM
Shotgun news did a 'how to' article on building a semi auto Sten that was far more complex than the original design. (Mostly to keep ATF compliant if I read it right.) Fact is the STEN was designed to be a cheap, effective SMG at close range. Sights were rudimentary, construction was definitely 'wartime' finish.

Everything that made the STEN a cheap mass produced bullet hose is everything that makes it NOT "decently accurate, ergonomic, functional, with effective sights, and optics."

Those are all the high $$ items. Well, even if you could jazz up a tube gun with some made in China optics, rails, sights and furniture, you'd still be looking at a dressed up sheet metal rifle.

I don't think it could be done for $250. Even semi auto MAC's wouldn't be that cheap today.

Snowdog
June 8, 2009, 10:32 PM
SOG (Southern Ohio Gun) is offering a "Sterling SMG 9mm Carbine" for $550 (#SLG-SSMG).
It comes with a 34 rounds magazine, underfolding stock and 16 3/4" barrel.

Not my cup of tea, but thought I'd pass it along.

colt.45
June 9, 2009, 12:01 AM
you guys really are discouraging. yes, I agree the sten isn't a very good gun by todays standards, but that's not because it's made from simple materials! it's because someone put the magazine well on the side, it's god a badly designed trigger, bad sights, ect. it was hastily produced in a time when ergonomics were over-rated!

My whole idea is to get rid of the undesirable traits of those guns through simplification and effective design! Ergonomics are not achieved simply by throwing money into a product. That is a DESIGN characteristic. just look at the ak-47. it's great because it achieves everything that it is through careful design. Yes more effective designs like the ar-15 require expensive machining and alot of parts. That isn't what i'm after! Is it really so hard to believe that someone other than mr. kalashnikov could achieve a simple and effective weapon through design? it would actually be quite a bit easier and cheaper with a simple blow back anyway. (not open bolt by the way i know the feds don't like them)

the people around here seem to have gotten quite bitter,
Colt T

SuperNaut
June 9, 2009, 12:12 AM
Beretta CX4 Storm.

Love mine.

hso
June 9, 2009, 12:14 AM
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/productimages/long_guns/Rifle-Sterling-folded-right-B.jpg

Sterling sporter carbine made for CAI.

SaMx
June 9, 2009, 01:02 AM
I don't think the AK really falls into he category of "ergonomic" or "good sights"

Anyway, a hi-point that was less ugly, and could use higher capacity magazines, would be cool. I'd also probably like it better with a traditional stock rather than a pistol grip.

colt.45
June 9, 2009, 07:51 PM
Have you handled a s&w model 76 lately? Compaired to that, an ak-47 is ergonomic heaven. Also, ak sights are more than enough to exceed the accuracy capability of the pistol rounds being fired, and miles better than the sights of the old smg's. Obviously the point of this supposed design is to aviod all the problems of older guns so, naturally I would design better sights for the rifle.

Domino
June 9, 2009, 08:36 PM
I think the Kel-Tec pretty much fills the role nicely. Its accurate, relaible, uses high capacity glock magazines, and it folds in half even though it is already as compact as you can get in a civilian legal rifle. Its a modern day Sten that uses modern materials. The old way of manufacturing just costs too much. I have an S2k and it is hardly a junky firearm, once you get the hang of it it is a formidable weapon. I say the S2k is about the most bang for your buck you can get these days.

Maybe you are looking for something more like the feather Rav-9??? Or maybe Ruger should redesign there PC series carbines to be made cheaper and use Sten mags???

Oh, and your $250 price tag is bit unrealistic in todays economy unless its made in China... Even so, the I bought my S2k for $300 a few years back :)

tactikel
June 9, 2009, 09:50 PM
I shot a Tec-9 that a friend owns. It jammed on every other shot (with 2 different magazines, and 3 different ammo brands). Accuracy was nil, it was a complete POS. A cheap but reliable 9mm (xd-m, pt11 or pf9) is a magnatude more useful for SD!

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