CCW without permit


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DasFriek
June 8, 2009, 07:36 AM
This question has made me want to ask how most of the gun enthusiests feel about this.Im not condoning,nor criticizing people for thier beliefs or actions.

What im asking is we all know the 2nd ammendmant gives us the right to "Bear arms" and id like to know how people take this and dont feel they should have to have local permits too ccw?

Personally,i dont ccw at all for the moment.But i could see me soon getting a permit.But if i seen a reason i have no qualms to ccw if i feel a situation warrents it.
My feeling on that is i take a risk of getting caught and risking alot in doing so,but im a law abiding citizen and would only ever use it to save my life or others.

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tuckerdog1
June 8, 2009, 07:42 AM
Gun nuts:confused:

DasFriek
June 8, 2009, 07:46 AM
fixed,i have slang words for everything.

paul45
June 8, 2009, 07:50 AM
but im a law abiding citizenYour post indicates otherwise.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
June 8, 2009, 07:55 AM
he could be a law abiding citizen if he lived in vermont. no permit needed for ccw.

50caliber123
June 8, 2009, 07:59 AM
I'm not defending him, but didn't Ted Nugent say something along the lines of "The Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit"? However frowned upon, I sense at least some people are in favor of not having to acquire a permit for what they feel is a right, but will follow the rules and jump through the hoops b/c its the law.

SaxonPig
June 8, 2009, 08:00 AM
Some people argue that requiring a permit to exercise one's Second Amendment rights is illegal. They say the Constitution is all the permit they need to carry a gun. In theory they are right. In practice, the state imposes many restrictions on Constitutional rights.

You can eschew the carry permit if you wish, but your argument will not win in court. I prefer not to be a convicted criminal. Frankly, I don't see where the permit system does one damn thing to combat crime or violence. It exists solely as state imposed control on the citizens. But the state is powerful enough to get away with it.

For now...

tuckerdog1
June 8, 2009, 08:04 AM
For now...

Best part of the reply.

Tuckerdog1

Nate1778
June 8, 2009, 08:07 AM
Too an extent I agree completely, I feel that CC permits are a stepping stone to full out registration. Guys will get on here and say I am breaking the law, but technically the highest law in the land says I am not. I mean the same guys that say I would be breaking the law, are these the same guys that will give up their guns to a full out ban one day, just because of a law. I will get my CC permit, but I do not think it is right to have to do so. This all goes back to the "No Guns" sign on the door, criminals are not taking this class. Its just another bureaucratic way to control the law abiding masses.

DeepSouth
June 8, 2009, 08:19 AM
It has been said, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

That said, If they wouldn't issue me a permit I'd probably carry anyway. Probably not as often and probably much more discretely, but I would be willing to break their (illegal/unconstitunal) law to protect my family, in some cases.
But they will issue me a permit so I can think of no good reason why not to have one.


Quote:
but im a law abiding citizen
Your post indicates otherwise

I disagree: it is perfectly legal to ignore laws contrary to the Constatution. Now you'll likely go to jail for it anyway, but it is technically legal.

DasFriek
June 8, 2009, 08:24 AM
but i am a law abiding citizen,as i have not carried my gun.
but stated i see there may be times when i felt it neccesary to do so.
i fully agree that getting a permit is the only smart option,and be 100% in compliance with the law.
and the Ted Nugent comment was one ive read here before,and at times i can agree with that,but most times i dont.
guys im not looking for answers to make me want to or feel better about carrying a ccw,i wont be.

mabey this isnt a great topic as i can see it ruffling alot of feathers.but i felt it may be possible to discuss feelings over it and not try and legitamizing breaking the law.

danprkr
June 8, 2009, 08:43 AM
I'm not defending him, but didn't Ted Nugent say something along the lines of "The Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit"? However frowned upon, I sense at least some people are in favor of not having to acquire a permit for what they feel is a right, but will follow the rules and jump through the hoops b/c its the law.

Yes it was Nugent who said that, and I totally agree. He's said in his writings, and I saw him say it in an interview on PBS once. Can't remember the show's name, but it was the one they have late at night with the totally black background.

I have had and will most likely have again a CCW permit just to avoid the hassle. But, I don't believe that I morally have to, it's just a convenience for me.

No, you probably wouldn't win with that argument because hypocritically the Supreme Court would say that the states aren't bound by the constitution, but they are when it's convenient for the gov to say so on other issues. I'd love for someone with the money to test it, but I can see why they wouldn't want to.

DasFriek
June 8, 2009, 08:47 AM
btw guys i reported my 1st post to have this moved to the legal section.i didnt see that was even there.

danprkr
June 8, 2009, 08:54 AM
I disagree: it is perfectly legal to ignore laws contrary to the Constitution. Now you'll likely go to jail for it anyway, but it is technically legal.

Totally agree! Those rights did NOT come from the government, they are acknowledged in the Constitution as coming from God, and therefore take precedent over any earthly regulation.

chuckusaret
June 8, 2009, 09:08 AM
but didn't Ted Nugent say something along the lines of "The Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit"? Ted Nugent can do as he likes, his money and fame help him avoid alot of daily crap we have to put up with. How many honest/good cops would want to go down in history as the LEO that busted Ted Nugent. Now if he were a scumbag, as some of the rappers are, it would be a different story.

Pistol Toter
June 8, 2009, 09:13 AM
Well here's my take on the subject: If it's OK for a CCW'er to carry and take a snort/drink, then what's wrong with carrying and not have the permit to do so? If theis thread doesn't get closed and locked for the proposal of doing unlawful acts then this must not be The High Road.:scrutiny:

deadin
June 8, 2009, 09:28 AM
I'd probably carry anyway. Probably not as often and probably much more discretely,

What could be more discreet than a properly carried concealed weapon? :confused:

Benelli Shooter
June 8, 2009, 09:54 AM
Part of the answer to this thread is understanding and accepting your inner outlaw. Our corrupt government has passed so many illegal laws that it is impossible to live FREE and not be in violation of one or more of them. There is nothing you can do about this.

Live your life. Obey the laws you believe in.

novaDAK
June 8, 2009, 09:56 AM
the 2nd ammendmant gives us the right to "Bear arms"
no it doesn't. The right to keep and bear arms predates the constitution. The 2nd amendment simply (is supposed to) protect that right from being stripped away by the government.

Zangetsu
June 8, 2009, 10:12 AM
It has been said, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

If it's a matter of life and death, and this is the only option left to you...do what you gotta do to stay safe. I've often wondered what I would do if I was in a situation where a CCW would save lives, seeing as I live in a state where it's completely illegal, and the only thing I can tell you with certainty is that I would be mad as hell. If you know something is going to happen that is going to put your life or the lives of your loved ones at risk, it's just as Deep South said...better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Nate1778
June 8, 2009, 10:34 AM
I know a good ole boy that years ago before the CC laws saved a young bartenders life carrying a CW. Cops never said a word to him, it ended in an arrest as opposed to a death though.

EdLaver
June 8, 2009, 10:36 AM
I dont feel that you should have to pay a total of $350 (class and state fees) to get a permit when it is our given right under the constitution. But, its just like vehicle registration, just another way to milk money out of the citizens. Think of how much money is made from vehicle registration yearly, thats alot of money for all active driving vehicles. In my opionion you should only have to register a vehicle when purchased and if ever sold, not every year. Same with CCW, you should have to take a class for a one time fee and thats it, no more renewing fees every three years. ONE TIME CLASS FEE AND DONE!

Rockwell1
June 8, 2009, 10:49 AM
Live your life. Obey the laws you believe in.

Isn't that what Jeffrey Dahmer did?

Ted Nugent said, on "Texas Monthly" , "The second amendment to our Bill of Rights is my concealed carry permit period"

Then he went out and had himself declared a "special constable" of the state of Texas so he could carry anywhere under LEOSA. Bit of a hypocrite if you ask me.

DeepSouth
June 8, 2009, 11:08 AM
no it doesn't. The right to keep and bear arms predates the constitution. The 2nd amendment simply (is supposed to) protect that right from being stripped away by the government.

This is a good valid point that I, for one, had never thought of.
Thanks for pointing it out.

What could be more discreet than a properly carried concealed weapon?

I'm just saying I take twice the measures to make sure I wasn't printing. A full size 1911 probably wouldn't be my CCW in that case for instance, mabey be a Kel-Tec or something.

Pistol Toter
June 8, 2009, 11:33 AM
that years ago

Nate,
That's the qualifier in your statement. As a youngster, I can remember the Sheriff telling my Dad to shoot the escaped convict that had been sleeping in our barn. He further added that he the convict was already paid for. That kind of comment won't be uttered in todays world and never again. Attitudes have changed and not for the better. But we are judged by our actions based on the law not our intentions regardless as to the meaning. To carry that firearm without being duly permitted is frought with danger in that it is by prevailing law illeagal one would be guilty of braking that law. Now, by morals you do what you have to do. I'm certinaly not going to admitt on this internet that I have ever performed an infraction of any law which is the basis of my first comment above. Back to the quoted, what ever part of grammer that is, is that what was accepted years ago is not acceptable now.

Benelli Shooter
June 8, 2009, 11:43 AM
Dahmer killed innocent people. If one of his victims would have had access to an illegal weapon, maybe Dahmer would have been stopped.

It is insanity to think that just because our corrupt government passes a law, it is a moral law. Our laws are arbitrary and mostly illegal. It is a fairy tale to think otherwise. Most laws are not written with your welfare in mind.

Should the Jews have just gone to the camps quietly as they were ordered? It was the law.

Embrace your inner outlaw.

Nate1778
June 8, 2009, 11:49 AM
I do agree years ago life was different, I also believe where you live is different as well. Law around here can have some "Good Ole Boys" in it and they are probably a bit more lenient than say an Orange County police officer. Sometimes not keeping up with the "rest of the country" is a good thing...

ar10
June 8, 2009, 11:59 AM
Probably get slammed for this but I post it:
Being one of the "poor" retired I do a lot of reading, mostly very early American history particularly the American Constitution including the Bill of Rights. One thing I found was our Constitution is dynamic, the signers and authors of the Constitution knew society would change long after they died. The 2nd Amendment was and will change depending on the mood of the people and elected officials. Even during Washington's term as President the delegates agreed that the "mob" needs to be governed by the "few" who had the whole nation to consider. I believe it was John Adams who stated "men are inherently cruel and don't see past their own selfish goals".
I understand the why part of the 2nd Amendment because every one of the founders understood that British and European leaders kept their "subjects" in check by disarming them. But as we move through history more and more control is taken over by the central government while states rights are slowly eroded. That is exactly what the "Sons of Liberty" fought against.

Zach S
June 8, 2009, 12:07 PM
I've done it. I've also drove way over the speed limit.

If its a good idea to do something illegal, there's a good chance that obeying the law might cost you or someone else dearly.

rbernie
June 8, 2009, 12:17 PM
I sense at least some people are in favor of not having to acquire a permit for what they feel is a right, but will follow the rules and jump through the hoops b/c its the law.Absolutely true (italics are mine).

Some folk talk about how they view any effort to dictate the terms and conditions of firearms ownership as infringements upon the Second Amendment. And that may be their viewpoint. Some of them might even walk that walk instead of just talking.

But most folk will make bona-fide efforts to comply with the existing laws, simply because we are raised to believe in the rule of law.

Embrace your inner outlaw.Just a brief reminder that we do not encourage acts of illegality here on THR. I understand that all of us are scofflaws in some way (certain as regards speed limits, at a minimum :) ), but we should still take pains to ensure that our public face is one of willingness to work within and live within the rule of law.

As an example - if you don't like CHL laws, then work to get open carry legally allowed in your state. But nobody should come here braggin' about how they carry without legal cover, because we simply do not accept that kind of braggidocio.

Robert
June 8, 2009, 12:30 PM
Carrying a ccw without a permit where one is needed is illegal. I sure hope that ya'll have a decent lawyer on retainer to back you up. Me I can not afford a lawyer, good or otherwise, so I got my permit and now carry nice and legal.

And though not overtly mentioned, it is not THR to discuss illegal actions at all.

razorback2003
June 8, 2009, 03:24 PM
You have a lot of options to avoid breaking the law. If you are in a state where it is legal to openly carry without a license, do that and avoid the fine. If you can conceal or open carry in your car without a license, go for that.

The fact is you will come out cheaper purchasing a license in most states than getting charged with a weapons offense and trying to get your gun back......if the court gives you that option. It will probably be a real big hassle. You may be handcuffed...you may be processed and have to post bond and appear in court. You'd probably want a lawyer to try to get a dismissal (if you have a clean criminal record). Do you really want to pay for all that? It is good to have a license on hand in the event you feel you badly need to carry in the future.

Law enforcement is generally friendly to people with licenses and not as friendly to those breaking the law and carrying without a license.

REAPER4206969
June 8, 2009, 09:12 PM
I support peaceable people that carry without a permit/license 100%

DasFriek
June 8, 2009, 09:30 PM
I will admit i have no plans to ccw without a permit,that being said there may be a time when i feel a need too.
Say if i take a 300 mile trip alone and possibly into remote areas,i dont think id keep it on me but in my car.
Once things in my life settle down a bit i fully plan on taking the required courses in order to obtain a ccw in ohio,i am lucky we do have that option here.
I will say i think i would be so nervous carrying one without a permit id be ready to take it off first chance i got.In saying that i think you can see it dont take doing so lightly.

In ohio its illegal to even carry a knife of any blade size,so pocket knives can be considered ccw if the LEO wants to be a jerk.But i regulerly carry my folding Benchmades in sheaths all with 3" blades and no issues.
But i dont think id get the same responce if a LEO saw the butt on my gun,id fully expect to be questioned and have nice new bracelets.

I think im kinda waiting until i get a smaller gun for ccw,my current G20 is almost to big and my next purchase is a 1911 wich is just as big.
My 3rd will be a small 9 and when i get that im gonna start the courses.
Or earlier if i get time or bored as i dont have to have a small gun in order to do it.

Harve Curry
June 8, 2009, 09:38 PM
Before CCW in New Mexico carrying concealed was a petty misdemeanor. I don't know what it is now?? I never did it but concievably it was cheaper to pay the misdeanor fine of about $25 then what it costs for a CCW and classes.

At the time I was arguing to repeal the misdeanor, using Vermont as an example. But the NRA wouldn't and politicians got there way. It's about money and record keeping.

FHBrumb
June 8, 2009, 09:41 PM
Wisconsin has the right to own and carry as part of it's constitution. The Attorney General confirmed this in writing this year. In an interview, years ago, Governor Doyle was asked about CCW, and said he would never sign it. He said that if the people of Wisconsin wanted to carry a pistol, it should be "right here", and patted his hip, meaning in plain view.

Only once that I can find, was a citizen aquitted of CCW illegally. He had been convicted, and appealed up to the State Supreme Court. His past had him being robbed at gunpoint many times. He was a Dominos Pizza Guy.

At the Court, it was said that his need to carry in a concealed fashion to protect his life outweighted the States responsibility to prohibit it. To not be convicted, this burden is on the Defendant. You must prove that your particular circumstances forced you to illegally carry CCW outweighs the States responsibility, due to public health and safety, to prohibit it.

In the past, under certain circumstances, I have risked CCW here. There are some places I simply will not drive to, or through, without a 45.

Jim K
June 8, 2009, 10:05 PM
Folks can argue Second Amendment until Elise comes home, but if you carry a gun illegally and are caught, you will have a chance to tell it to a judge and you WILL lose. Every time. No exceptions. Period.

That being said, I have long stated my belief that people who feel the need to carry a gun will do so, no matter what the law says. If your life is at stake and the threat is real ("they will kill me", not "someone might hurt me") being arrested for illegal carry is a risk you will take. But IMHO, it is not worth the risk of jail time and a conviction that would keep me from ever owning a gun just to carry because it is "cool" or I want to play macho.

Jim

senior
June 8, 2009, 10:21 PM
gun permits for ccl is nothing more than one more way for the gov. to get their greedy hands in your pockets!

Cannonball888
June 8, 2009, 10:23 PM
Carrying a concealed firearm not in comission of another crime is still only a misdemeanor in some states and will not keep you from obtaining a CWP since it isn't a felony and doesn't fall under Lautenberg.

Frank Ettin
June 9, 2009, 01:10 AM
Carrying a concealed firearm not in comission of another crime is still only a misdemeanor in some states and will not keep you from obtaining a CWP since it isn't a felony and doesn't fall under Lautenberg.Yes it's a misdemeanor, but that's not like a traffic ticket. It's real live criminal offense and is treated as such.

You'll go to jail in handcuffs, be booked, finger printed, and have mug shot taken. You'll stay in jail until a judge decides your bail and you make bail.

In California, and I suspect in other state, it's a weapons offense; and that will mean no more guns under state law (and you'll have to give up the ones you already have). And you can go to jail for up to one year.

If you have a clean record, you'll probably get offered a plea deal and probation that will keep you out of jail. However, a consistent probation requirement will be "no guns."

A conviction on a misdemeanor can also cause collateral damage. You'll probably have to pay a bunch of money to a lawyer. It could also affect your job. Does your job require you to me bondable and would the bonding company have a problem with the misdemeanor conviction? Would your employer? Does your trade or profession require a license, and could a misdemeanor conviction affect any license you may need?

These are all things to think about, and you should check your own state's law carefully so you'll Know the legal risks.

FHBrumb
June 9, 2009, 08:33 AM
Yes, in WI, it's a Class A Mis.

EYESOFTEXAS
June 9, 2009, 09:54 AM
I've considered the "to-carry-or-not-to-carry" question each time I traveled to NJ.

On the one hand, get caught = go to jail. Period.

On the other hand, you've got stuff like

-- "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six"
-- "Guns are like parachutes- if you need one, and you ain't got one, you'll never need one again."
-- Etc.

If I'm traveling with my family I don't like the idea of surrendering their well-being to the mercy of someone else's good will for them (or lack of it, I should say).

But I also don't like the idea of my boys growing up and their dad is doing 5-10 in Rahway state prison because he got caught carrying.

I'd feel different about the last one if I'm doing time because I pulled the weapon and used the weapon to defend my family in NJ vs. I got caught because it "printed" at the mall.

It's a personal choice. You put something at risk no matter how you come down.

Most will argue it's an easy choice because it's illegal to carry. I may or may not come down the same way, but I don't think it's easy. Depends on your values. Things like "civil disobedience" and "Be a good Nazi?" come to mind.

And before someone jumps all over me saying "Yeah, but you can't win in court with that" -- I get it. 10-4. Can't win in court. I'm talking about something bigger.

All that said, if you can get a CHL in your state, but don't, and you carry anyway, I think you're asking for it. In the same way I don't think Nugent's a hypocrite for beating him chest about the Second Amendment and then getting the right to carry everywhere. Why risk anything on principle when there are means within the law that get you the same result?

Just my thoughts.

CoRoMo
June 9, 2009, 10:16 AM
Ted Nugent said, on "Texas Monthly" , "The second amendment to our Bill of Rights is my concealed carry permit period"

Then he went out and had himself declared a "special constable" of the state of Texas so he could carry anywhere under LEOSA. Bit of a hypocrite if you ask me.

Untrue. The Nuge became a constable, rather than having himself declared such, approx. 2004-ish. The Texas Monthly interview took place April 2007 IIRC. He didn't "then" go out and do anything hypocritical. In fact, he's been able to carry without a permit for approx 30 years due to his deputy sheriff status from Michigan.

Back to the OT. Many absolutists such as myself know what the 2A has acknowledged, but unless we live in one of the two states that recognize that freedom without feeling the need to make money off of it, we'd best abide by the law of our state.

If you want to be a martyr and create a criminal record to reflect the sacrifice of your beliefs, go ahead. Eventually, you'll never be able to pass a NICS check again. It's the world we live in. It's the rules we have to play by.

SHvar
June 9, 2009, 11:20 AM
I firmly believe that all those with a clean criminal history (no felonies) should carry everywhere, why, simple, our society would be a much safer, much kinder society.
Imagine the attitude change, the thought that you could risk your life by making almost anyone angry, of course eventually natural selection and common sense would seriously reduce or crime.
I CCW, and sometimes I dont even carry but I have that option.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 9, 2009, 11:32 AM
Imagine the attitude change, the thought that you could risk your life by making almost anyone angry, of course eventually natural selection and common sense would seriously reduce or crime.
Is that why you carry? So that people are afraid to disagree with you? Your attitude is exactly why most colleges are against concealed carry. They are afraid that any sort of heated debate will result in a shooting. Based on your comments, they may be on to something.

I find the implication that those who carry would shoot another person simply because they are angry to be insulting. As a permit holder, you should be ashamed for posting such nonsense.

Rockwell1
June 9, 2009, 01:53 PM
In fact, he's been able to carry without a permit for approx 30 years due to his deputy sheriff status from Michigan.

I apologize for getting the timing wrong, but either way the 2nd amendment still isn't his carry permit and he still used his celebrity status to secure a privlege that most of us aren't allowed access to.

CoRoMo
June 9, 2009, 01:58 PM
...he still used his celebrity status...

I'd need to know where you got that info before I could agree with it.

Maybe my sig line should read...

In two of the fifty states, the Second Amendment of our Bill of Rights is my concealed weapons permit, period!

The truth of the matter is that the 2A was intended to be just that. So, yes it is, but unfortunately, only two states care to leave it alone like they're all supposed to. The rest have criminalized that right.

Frog48
June 9, 2009, 02:03 PM
Then he went out and had himself declared a "special constable" of the state of Texas so he could carry anywhere under LEOSA. Bit of a hypocrite if you ask me.

I believe that appointed as a Reserve Deputy by a county Constable's office. All city/county/state LEO's in Texas must be TCLEOSE licensed, which is Texas' commission regulating peace officers.

Theres no such thing as a "Special Constable of the State of Texas"... Constable is a county-level elected office, and obviously Constables are authorized to commission deputies. And contrary to rumor, you cant be "declared" any sort of peace officer in Texas without a TCLEOSE peace officer license. So either he attended a police academy in Texas, or TCLEOSE reviewed his reciprocity application and recognized the police academy curriculum he must have completed in Michigan, where he previously was a Deputy Sheriff.

This isnt the "good old days" of sheriffs and constables deputizing their buddies without any sort of training, oversight, or accountability.

ccsniper
June 9, 2009, 02:05 PM
I'm pretty sure here in Arkansas that if you are carrying a gun without a permit it is only a misdemeanor, and that is waived if you use your gun in defense of yourself or someone else. Not sure about this so please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not old enough to carry, but as soon as I turn 21 I will get the permit.

KBintheSLC
June 9, 2009, 02:16 PM
I have no quarrel with the OP... I have a CCW permit because I can have one and it makes my life easier. However, I do not feel that a CCW permit is required under the 2nd Amendment and therefore I don't think it is necessary on a moral level. Here in UT, it is only a misdemeanor if you are caught concealing a pistol without a CCW... that is a fair trade to be able to defend your life. Keep a low profile, and they will never know.

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