[Keith]

Is a lighter a weapon?

I dropped my 19 year old daughter off at the Kodiak airport last Sunday. She's leaving to spend the winter in Ireland with friends. She has a job lined up with a pub in Cork, and hopes to take art classes if she can fight her way through the Irish bureaucracy...

On Friday I got a certified letter from the Aviation Security office in Anchorage. It's a "Letter of Investigation"... It seems that when her checked bags were passed through the International Screening process at the Anchorage Airport, they found a number of cigarette lighters contained therein. She has violated the "Federal Hazardous Materials Regulations, 49 Code of Federal Regulations"...

The letter tells us (her) that she has ten days to file "explanatory information reflecting extenuating or mitigating circumstances regarding these alleged violations".

In fact, she did have some lighters in her bag stamped "Kodiak, Alaska" with a little bear logo to give to Irish friends. And apparently, if she had carried them on board there would be no problem. But, if checked in they are a dangerous violation of national security...

It's a strange world we live in! It's too bad it's an issue of my daughters, because I can't really give them hell without the consequences falling to her. If they were MY lighters, I could call and write everyone involved explaining what total and complete morons they are. And if they pressed the issue I could then go the newspapers and make them look even worse. There's nothing more fun than giving a bureaucrat an ulcer. Stupid people should have their noses rubbed in their own stupidity.

As it is, I'll have to fight this politely (the daughter is not here to fight it on her own), and probably have to kiss a few butts that I'd rather kick.

Keith

[Kentucky Rifle]

I didn't know that your checked bags were actually opened. If the bags were just x-rayed, how.... sorry man, I just don't get it. Little plastic lighters with a bear on them? Sometimes I have a difficult time with pure stupidity. This sounds like that.

Will

[morganm01]

Tell them your buddy who just moved to Australia put them in her bag and she didn't know about them.

[Moparmike]

What?!?!:scrutiny:

She is a terrorist! Dont you know the damage she could do with the cuteness of those lighters? Think of the children man! They fall for the cute things! We have federal regulations against transporting CWMD's!:cuss:


:rolleyes: :D

The stupid stuff that people come up with these days. They're lighters. I would have more problems with it in the cabin than in the suitcase.

Devil's Advocate: Anyone know the actual effects of depressurization on a lighter and the fire-fighting capabilities of the cargo deck of the average airliner? Maybe there is a reason afterall.:confused: :scrutiny:

[Keith]

I just really wish they were MY bags! I would love to carry this as far as I can take it, personally insulting every single person involved and making them realize what low-life morons they really are. I'd play it to the media and make myself out to be a victim (which is true) and maybe, just maybe they'd practice a little common sense with the next person they target with their phoney bureaucratic jobs to make their empty lives seem important.

Do I seem angry?

I suspect the worst that could happen is I'd get a fine and be added to some list of people to hassle at airports. I don't care about stuff like that - I enjoy getting hassled and I can ruin somebodies day with the best of them.

Keith

[feedthehogs]

They will open checked bags randomly and rifle through your stuff.

They leave a nice little card indicating they have done so.

That means you can't lock your bags anymore or they will cut the lock off, or try as the case was with one of my wife's bags.

I used one of those little brass locks from a ruger box to lock the two zipper ends together. When picking up the bags at the airport I noticed the lock was missing. Thinking someone broke into the bag I complained to the airlines baggage. Upon opening the bag, there was the paper from TSA and the lock. They tried to cut the clasp in two places but couldn't get through. I guess they use dykes and not bolt cutters. They then cut the zipper ends off and ruined any chance of sealing the bag again.

They told me I was supposed to leave the bag open for inspection and would not replace the damaged bag.

Our government at work.

I bought a time share in a private jet charter and will never fly commercial again. Its also nice to be able to carry your gun with you on the plane!

More expensive, but I refuse to pay homage and support the state sponsored airlines anymore.

[Psssniper]

Well you'd be suprised what an "ex spek oops navel seel mall ninja" hiding in the wheel well of a 747 could do if he found those lighters in your daughters checked bags!!! You betcha, why he could probably shoot a hole in the fuselage and decompress the whole plane and when all the passengers had been sucked out into the airless void of 36,000 agl he then could take over the cockpit and crash the plane into something but not before parachuting out to go to his next mission..........
Tracking down people who LIST THEIR STATE when placing an ad on THR's for sale boards and then putting their names into the governments database!!
You betcha mister

[4v50 Gary]

When flying from Phoenix to Indianapolis, I was told that I had to carry my matches either on my person or in the carry-on and that it could not be among the check-in luggage.:confused: I think the TSA is an anal organization. Privitize them.

[Kentucky Rifle]

NetJets?? Not only carry your pistol but great aircraft maintenance too.

KR

[Morgan]

And they send you a letter, now? If they really thought it was a danger why didn't they just take the things?

Probably better send them an explanatory note, though, or they'll make your kid's life hell on return.

Agreed, morons.

[ceetee]

Devil's Advocate #2 checking in...

Most people haven't ever seen the trained gorillas the airlines employ as luggage handlers. They have genetically altered them so that they can do maximum damage to your checked baggage in a minimum amount of time, with a minimum amount of handling...

Seriously, though (and sincere apologies to the baggage handlers. They do a hard job, in crappy conditions; it's no wonder they want to get the stuff moved in a minimum amount of time so they can go back inside where it doesn't stink of jet fuel.)

But seriously, imagine if a couple of butane containers were cracked during handling allowing a slow leak, of if Grandpa's bowling ball shifted during rotation, smashing a half-dozen of them...releasing a nice cloud of fuel-air-explosive... add a random spark...

It's not as far-fecthed as it sounds. Something similar to this brought down a cargo jet leaving Miami Int'l Airport a few years ago. Came down right off the Palmetto Expressway...

[Keith]

Uh huh, but then why are they allowed in the cabin? You could get on board with a carry-on bag full of butane lighters and bowling balls and that would be fine...

You can check ammunition. You can check a box full of rattlesnakes. You can check a cannister of medical oxygen.

It's just bureaucratic stupidity. They need to find violations to justify their stupid jobs and so they WILL find violations! You can write regulations, but you can't force a bureaucrat to exercise common sense.

Keith

[Moparmike]

You can check ammunition. You can check a box full of rattlesnakes. You can check a cannister of medical oxygen. Can I check a box containing a loose-rolling leaking bottle of medical O2, ammunition, butane lighters ready to be smashed by the bottle, magneseum fire-starter in a position for spark inducing, and just for fun and games, topped off with rattlesnakes?:p :uhoh: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

I just want to see where the bureaucratic idiocy ends.

[geekWithA.45]

I dunno about you, but if I got a certified mail from the .gov informing me that my daughter was under investigation for anti terror violations,

It strikes me that consulting a lawyer is a grand idea.

[Crimper-D]

Often enough to attract the attention of various Federal and State regulatory agencies in the past. One model made by "Societe' de BIC" was bad enough to get several people singed and blasted. :eek: Massive recall worldwide, don't remember the dates, but enough data apparently got into someones database when the airline safety regs were being drawn up to get them on the 'list'.
Add that to the morons who do these baggage checks using that list as a reference, and it's easy to predict the outcome.:banghead:

[TarpleyG]

bought a time share in a private jet charter and will never fly commercial again. Its also nice to be able to carry your gun with you on the plane!
Feedthehogs, details please. Sounds interesting but never heard of this. May be something to check out.

GT

[dinosaur]

It was around 78-79 I think. I can`t recall the details and I use a Zippo anyway.:D I don`t think you can carry lighter fluid at all though.:banghead:

[morganm01]

I think the reason for not wanting compressed gasses in the plane is the downing of the flight off New York a few years ago, it was due to charged oxygen bottles being shipped when they were supposed to be empty.

[280PLUS]

why they gotta hassle her too, not enough to take them away and say "bad traveler, thats a no- no" ?

they got boxes upon boxes of stuff confiscated that other people shouldnta brought...

:fire:

reminds me of the one where they took the little old lady's knitting needles away,,,

they were afraid she was going to knit an afghan...:eek:

:rolleyes:

:D

she may need to invest in a tinfoil hat now that the gov't is on to her...

[DorGunR]

Is the cargo compartment pressureized?????
Are the cigarette lighters plastic?????
If the answer is no & yes respectivly then the lighters are filled at sea level......more or less.......just wondering what the pressure would be say....6 or 7 miles up????:confused:

Hey, I don't know......it's just a thought.

[madmike]

The pressure at that altitude shouldn't affect the integrity of the lighter. Nor should total vacuum, actually. It's POSSIBLE a valve may leak...but still, why did they let them aboard if it's a problem?

And as to defending yourself by mail...don't do it. Demand they file charges or drop it. Or they'll have you pegged as a "self-admitted terrorist" and kill your/her RKBA.

[EOD Guy]

The issue has absolutely nothing to do with the TSA or terroism, but with Dept of Transporation regulations on transportation of hazardous materials. The restriction against butane lighters in checked baggage has been in place for many years and is posted on most, if not all, airline web sites.

[George Hill]

Our world is becoming a very stupid place.
:banghead:

[Autolite]

I got the impression from the initial post that the lighters were not permitted because they were a "hazardous material". This would imply that this is a safety thing, not a terrorist thing. I'm betting that the security people did not consider the lighters to be weapons, just HAZMAT. If your received a letter notifing you that they are playing the "terrorist" angle, then I am thinking that someone higher up decided to twist things around a bit. IIRC, lighters were banned from aircraft cargo holds long before 9-11. Maybe you could check the particular law that they are citing and find out when it came into effect ...

[LostOneToo]

Just goes to show that there really is not a limit to human stupidity and that no one nation has a monopoly on ignorance!!!!

:cuss:

[jrhead75]

Very little that's more stupid, stubborn and difficult to deal with than a little bureaucrat with a little bit of power. Been that way since the dawn of recorded history. Good luck.

The cargo compartment is pressurized the same as the passenger cabin, so pressure shouldn't be an issue. There are also smoke detectors and fire bottles there (cargo comp't). The devices that brough the ValueJet 757 mentioned above down were live oxygen generators which are actual explosive devices, not oxygen bottles.

[feedthehogs]

Kentucky Rifle and TarpleyG,

The time-share I bought was through a client of mine who owns multiple Gulfstreams, Citations and a customized 727. He was in the aircraft brokerage business and got into the charter business years ago. Time-shares, like condos, were on the scene but not as popular as now since 911.

I've known this guy for 20 years and hang out at his hanger at PBIA. Even got some stick time in the right seat when I pursued my commercial, but never finished. His maintenance and pilots are great.

He has no problem with you carrying a gun on board as long as he knows you. Six of us went dove hunting in Texas last month and were comparing shotguns during the flight. (unloaded and safe) A really weird feeling the first time. A palovian reflex flying with out in the open guns. Went against the indoctrination they drilled into me over the years.
But his times shares are really kept to people he knows anyways.

There are more commercial time-shares and groups of say stock and commodity brokers that go together and by time.

It’s only worth it if you can schedule your flights or trips around certain times. Everyday business travelers with deadlines should stick to commercial flight. Regular jet charter service is big time expensive unless you have deep pockets.

[Baba Louie]

Two ways to handle it Keith,

The Boy Scout way and the American Rebel method (but you know this already as you have alluded)

First is to suck it up and write a concilatory letter explaining the situation as it really existed and tell them that certainly no harm was intended, rather these were/are intended as gifts to friends, blah, blah, blah... thats the safe high road and will ease everyone's minds, especially if you ask them to put a good word in the personnel file of the employee who found the dastardly things (known as kissing bootie), thankless job, safety for all travelers, just doing their jobs, etc. etc. and asking them, maybe, for some clearly worded letter that they can give to all future travelers warning them of such acts...:scrutiny:

The hard way is to get a lawyer, write the letter, copy your congresspeople and senator and fight the good fight, knowing that you're tilting at windmills and that you, as well as any members of your family, will be subject to intense scrutiny from this point on for the rest of your life when traveling through their (TSA) area of bureaucratic authority... sigh

If I were you, I would not travel via air with any of your firearms from this point on. Your family has now been entered into their profile red-flag computer "System" and if its anything like the local police computer customer "System", once you're in it, death is the only way out. Maybe a presidential pardon would do... but I doubt it. It might be fun to test it out once or twice with some single barrel el cheapo 20 ga shotgun and see what the reactions are and the conditions you (and said shotgun) will face in reaching your destination, but I sure wouldn't want to travel carrying anything I'd spent any real money on.

Good luck and let us know what the bureaucratic response is to whatever your reply by endorsement is.

Adios

[caseydog]

From the TSA website: * Up to 2 lighters and 4 books of safety matches are allowed in your carry-on baggage - NOT checked
baggage. Disposable lighters and absorbed liquid lighters are allowed in your carry-on baggage.
Lighters with unabsorbed liquid fuel and refillable butane lighters are NOT permitted. Strike anywhere
matches are NOT permitted.
Note Some personal care items containing aerosol are regulated as hazardous materials. The FAA
regulates hazardous materials. This information is summarized at http://asi.faa.gov/Passenger.asp

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_10_16_2003v2.pdf

[madmike]

Fellow SF writer Mercedes Lackey used to work for American Airlines, and is a vol firefighter. Her site is www.mercedeslackey.com


The regs against butane lighters in checked baggage have been there since
forever. They were there when I started working for AA---1982. You're also
not allowed spray insecticide or paint or anything that isn't a toiletry. It
used to be that you were also not supposed to carry pressurized containers of
anything---including shaving cream, perfume, hairspray, deodorant,
air=freshner, whipped cream.... They changed that: see

http://asi.faa.gov/docs/HAZMATByPassenger.pdf

Checking the first posting, it's clear that the violation was this Hazmat
code, not a security violation. A piece of idiocy perpetrated by a
bureaucrat looking for a gold star in his bunny-book, based on an outmoded
reg, but no big deal and the guy's daughter isn't going to get a "potential
terrorist" stamp on her passport.

Unfortunately, pleading ignorance isn't going to get them anywhere, since the
reg is "clearly" printed in all that microtype on your ticket....UNLESS
Daughter got an E-ticket! In which case, she CAN'T have been aware of the
reg, and that's the "extenuating circumstances"! "My daughter had an
electronic, not a paper ticket, and thus we had not seen and were unaware of
the regulation." Hell, if it was me, I'd just send that as an answer anyway
and make them prove that I didn't have an e-ticket.

I recall this particular piece of trivia because as non-revs (standby
passengers) we were expected to know and abide by ALL the stupid regs, no
matter how stupid. What was another odd one---oh, no more than two carry-on
pets per cabin (that would be 2 in first, 2 in business and 2 in coach). I
have no idea why. Because the yap-dog and the kitten might double-team the
bird in row 24? And you can cram as many animals as you want into the kennel
itself, but no more than 4 checked kennels per flight. Mind, that might be a
space-thing; the kennel area is heated as well as pressurized. (We were also
supposed to dress in suit and tie at all times. You could always tell the
nonrevs. They were the only ones coming from Hawaii, Disneyland, or Miami in
a suit and tie). That said, they were never able to open your bags to look
for Hazmat unless someone heard a hissing noise or other suspcious sounds
until the license-to-loot issued by Homeland Insecurity---about the only way
they'd find a couple of lighters was if the bag broke open in transit (or
someone decided your bag looked expensive enough to try a little shopping in
and they caught him). I can't tell you WHY the reg is there, but I can
guess; cargo holds weren't pressurized at all in prop planes or in early jets
(707s?) and weren't pressurized very well up until the late 1970s early
1980s. (I recall this because of a couple of cases of people dying whilst
being smuggled in someone's luggage or sneaking into the cargo hold to
smuggle themselves. Also pets put in cargo by mistake or being smuggled
croaked.).

Explanation for the reg? It is possible that an explosion and fire could
start that way in an unpressurized hold (not likely, but possible, and the
then-FAA preferred to err heavily on the side of caution.
end quote

Gee. Do we feel safer, now?

[Mike Irwin]

It's obvious that you did raise a terrorist, and she is running lighters to Ireland so that the IRA can light the fuzes on their Smedley Whiplash-looking cannonball bombs...

[Quartus]

Hello, Folks! It's OVERREACTION TIME!!!!


No, not the TSA's overreaction. THR's.


Lighters in checked luggage were a no-no long before 9-11. Hazardous materials. Flimsy containers of pressurized butane in a non-pressurized cargo area where the possibility of ignition (meaning, EXPLOSION) exists.


I hate the post 9-11 nonsense as much as any of you, but this ain't it.

[Amegatek]

I used to be a Ramp Agent (baggage handler, in layman's terms) for Delta Airlines. As far as the rough handling of baggage goes, those crews are operating under draconian time constraints. We used to get our collective @$$'s chewed if the flight was pushed off the gate even 1 minute late! :eek: Bearing that in mind, the crew loading the cargo holds, cannot be expedient and gentle at the same time. The airlines want efficiency not baggage handlers with kid gloves! I always advise friends/family to never place anything valuble or fragile in checked baggage because of this. JMHO. :)

[Brian Dale]

Confirming that it's a D.O.T. HazMat transportation thing: Google 49 CFR and watch what comes up. You'll also see references to spray cans and SCUBA cylinders. The references I saw showed butane REFILLS and Zippo-type lighter fluid being prohibited, but there's a lot of dense, non-specific wording in there. Sounds like a baggage-searcher got a case of err-on-the-side-of-caution syndrome. The question of packing plastic lighters must have come up a thousand times before. There should be info available about what was done.

There's some stuff in DOT and FAA reg's and airline policies that isn't obvious. When I came back from a stint in Japan more than ten years ago, I found out after the fact that my collection of matchbooks and boxes of matches (many handfuls, from restaurants) was a major no-no. No fallout for me, back then. Looks like she got an overzealous screener. The letter tells us (her) that she has ten days to file "explanatory information reflecting extenuating or mitigating circumstances regarding these alleged violations". IANAL; treating my thoughts as advice could cause major problems. How about: "They're souvenirs. They were packed because the policy was not posted clearly" ? That won't work if it was posted clearly, of course. Beyond that, because plastic lighters can be carried on board an aircraft when a long list of things can't, a reasonable person wouldn't give lighters a second thought when packing.

Good luck to you and to her; please let us know how it turns out.

{EDIT: I just read your next post; I agree.}

[Keith]

Baggage holds ARE pressurized! I know that because all of the lighters, deodorant and shaving cream I've packed over the years didn't explode in my suitcase!

It's a silly rule enforced by silly people doing a silly job.

Keith

[labgrade]

"But seriously, imagine if a couple of butane containers were cracked during handling allowing a slow leak, of if Grandpa's bowling ball shifted during rotation, smashing a half-dozen of them...releasing a nice cloud of fuel-air-explosive... add a random spark...

It's not as far-fecthed as it sounds. Something similar to this brought down a cargo jet leaving Miami Int'l Airport a few years ago. Came down right off the Palmetto Expressway..."

Pul-leaze!

That was oxygen tanks that did that, not butane lighters.

I really do hope you are kidding & appologies in advance if so.

Really & c'mon. Butane lighters - brand-new & toot-sweet-full - can be thrown into a fire-pit & not do one damnable thing to anyone nearby.

Try it yourself sometime.

Make a roaring campfire & just toss a brand new one in. A few seconds later, they go "Poof!", but hardly any explosion, nor the old saw of "equivalent to 7 sticks of dynamite" crap-ola.

Wear safety goggles if you choose.

The whole thing about lighters is absolutely rediculous.

(& that they now have "safeties" on them is so stupid as to bound on the absurditiesness-silly-thingies ;))


Jack 'em up, My Man!

[whitebear]

Concerning the discussion of the (de)pressurization of the cargo area - remember, they carry checked animals in the cargo hold, so it can't be TOO depressurized, or many, many old ladies would be very upset about the inside-out, freeze-dried Pekinese they picked up on the other end...

[jrhead75]

Everything in the "tube" of a normal passenger jet IS pressurized top and bottom, from the bulkhead just forward of the cockpit(the nose cone isn't), aft to the pressure dome which is immediately forward of the tail feathers(control surfaces).

[bogie]

Dear bureaucrat.

Oops. Didn't know.

Do you need any further followup?

Sincerely,

You

[papercut]

Keith,

Consider dropping a note to your federal congresscritters about this, and send them copies of your correspondence with the TSA. Maybe--just maybe--they'll get the hint that the TSA was a stupid idea.

[papercut]

ceetee mentioned:
Most people haven't ever seen the trained gorillas the airlines employ as luggage handlers. They have genetically altered them so that they can do maximum damage to your checked baggage in a minimum amount of time, with a minimum amount of handling...

Remember the old Samsonite TV commercials? That was "Baggage Handler of the Month" at La Guardia. :D

[ceetee]

labgrade

I realize it wasn't butant lighters but O2 generators brought that one down. My point was when the SHTF, you can' t be too picky about what caused it... like the cargo jet in which the freightmaster(bater) "forgot" that the load had to be secured. The entire load in a DC-8 shifted to the rear of the aircraft during rotation, causing the whole of the airframe to become vertical... Like a hot air balloon with no hot air. That's the one that really came down off the Palmetto... When the end result could be as disastrous as that, it pays to err on the side of caution.

P.S... did I really spell "fetched" that messed up? Geez!

Amegatek

Like I said... It's a job that's hot, nasty, and reeking of Jet A. One time, I was watching a flght in from Frankfurt being unloaded when they pulled off a "Beck's Bier" box that had "Fragile-Dishes" written all over all the sides... as it was coming down off the conveyor, the guy at the bottom was distracted by something... CRASH!!

The aroma of German hops wafted over the tarmac, as several pairs of eyes got all misty...

[kernal_panic]

this is why i refuse to fly comercial airlines. went to dallas for quake con 2 months back 1st time out of the state (florida) in 6 years we drove it. it was cheaper, had more fun, and didn't have to put with any bull????.

[Keith]

Look, I don't really care if they pull butane lighters out of luggage on the grounds that they violate some regulation. I think the reasoning is stupid, but those guys with the scanners probably don't have any latitude in the matter.
What I do care about is the stupidity and expense of starting an "investigation" into such a thing! At some point, somebody, must be tasked with acting on the various items pulled out of luggage. This is where the bureaucratic mind goes off the tracks! Why does a butane lighter need to be "investigated" by some board? Why do I (or my daughter) have to provide documentation and explanations as to why a lighter was in some luggage? It's a lighter and it was in the luggage - what more do you want?

A sensible law would not pull lighters, deodorant and hairspray out of luggage. A sensible bureaucrat dealing with a nonsensical law would simply send a letter saying something like: "We removed a lighter out of your luggage because it violates such and such regulation. Please don't do that again. We don't have any lattitude in the matter and if you'd like to complain, send a letter to blah, blah, blah."

And my response to that would be: "OK, fine, whatever...".

But of course if we don't have "investigations" into such matters we won't be able to justify having all these stupid bureaucrats on the payroll. That's reason enough not to apply common sense to every day situations!

Keith

[Cosmoline]

I'm not even remotely concerned that terrorists will attack one of my flights. But I live in real fear that uniformed representatives of Der Fatherland will find some smokeless powder residue on my fingers or bags and put me away for a while.

Every flight is a new exercise in bending over and taking it. Seeing all of us there in the security line, shoes off, partially disrobed, poked and questioned by arrogant TSA toadies. It makes me wonder if the whole "it can't happen here" line of thought is complete BS. It IS happening here! Right now! And there's absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. Welcome to the new world order.

All I know is I'll never bring a child into this world. Not much of a protest, but it's about all I've got left.