Best price for 1863 Springfield rifle?


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DavidB2
June 8, 2009, 05:51 PM
After a haitus from blackpowder/civil war weapons; I am returning to my interest in Civil War weapons. I am looking at getting an 1861 or 1863 Springfield rifle (shooting replica of course). Where can I find the best prices on that rifle? What is the biggest difference in the 1861 Springfield and 1863 model?

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CAMPBELL49T
June 9, 2009, 12:00 AM
I don't know if you want to buy new or used. I'm going to put my Enfield 3 band 58 cal musket up for sale on THR. I know you are looking for a Springfield. Mine is a 1853 model Civil war musket. I have a repro sling and about a box 1/2 of musket caps. The 58 balls I had has already been melted down and made in to other cal.

go to the post on black powder site trapdoor 45-70 trap door conversion and colt dragoon. There are some pictures of the rifle.

arcticap
June 9, 2009, 12:37 AM
What is the biggest difference in the 1861 Springfield and 1863 model?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1861

The most notable producer of contract Model 1861 Springfields was Colt, who made several minor design changes in their version, the "Colt Special" rifled musket. These changes included redesigned barrel bands, a new hammer, and a redesigned bolster. Several of these changes were eventually adopted by the Ordnance Department and incorporated into the model 1863 rifled musket.

For further info. about the 1861 and the 1863 types 1 and 2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1863

The Type II is sometimes referred to as the Model 1864, but is more commonly referred to as just a variant of the Model 1863. This version re-introduced band springs, replaced the clamping bands with solid oval bands, and replaced the three leaf rear sight with single leaf sight.

Here's SS Firearms 4 page firearms section of their catalog. They sell both models.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/images/09%20cat/2009%20Cat%20Repro%20Firearms.pdf

http://www.ssfirearms.com/

Hawkeye748
June 9, 2009, 10:25 AM
Wikipedia is wrong. Colt DID NOT make a Model 1861. Don't confuse the "Special" 1861 models with the Springfields. They are different rifles. They were made by a variety of Mfgs. with Colt being the most well known. Check Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms. It helps to clear things up a bit.

The Special models were a sort of hybrid between the Enfield and the Springfields. Externally, they were similar. The essential difference is that the internals on the various special models were Enfield in design. This as I understand it was due to Whitney's involvement in the weapon. He had acquired a quantity of Enfield parts from Europe and was looking for a place to recoup his investment. A very good weapon, but to this day it is causing some confusion with the true Springfield.

I don't know what you mean about the "best price". Are you going to be plinking, or getting serious. It makes a difference. I don't trust any of the Italian repros without a lot of tuning and other work. The internals are made of soft metal and usually require fitting, polishing, and hardening if you are going to get serious.

The best off the rack Springfield is made by Miroku, which has been made in the 61 and 63. Dixie Gun Works is the only one I know that carries it. It still needs a bit of lock work, but the overall quality is much better than the Italians. www.dixiegunworks.com

Here are a few sites to look into:

Lodgewood Mfg. www.Lodgewood.com

New and used usually available.

James River Armory: www.jamesriverarmory.com

New guns skirmisher and re-enactor grade. Skirmisher is the better "shooter's grade"

S & S Firearms www.ssfirearms.com

These are all reputable dealers. There are others, but I haven't dealt with them so I can't recommend them.

The difference between the Springfield 63 and 61 are minor. The obvious difference is the bolster, which is shaped different and lacks a clean out screw. Others are minor (hammer, barrel bands, way attached to stock). It could have easily been another "Type" of the 61. I don't know why they abandoned this old method of distinguishing between minor variations but they did. I have suspicions, but only that.

Hope this helps.

AdmiralB
June 9, 2009, 01:24 PM
The best off the rack Springfield is made by Miroku, which has been made in the 61 and 63. Dixie Gun Works is the only one I know that carries it. It still needs a bit of lock work, but the overall quality is much better than the Italians.

I disagree. I bought a Miroku '63 from Dixie in April and promptly sent it back. Materials were high-quality but attention to detail was poor. I also didn't care for the "DIXIE GUN WORKS" stamped on the lock and barrel in largish lettering.

I was at DGW last month and looked at all the Springfields....the Pedersoli (admittedly an 1861, not '63) was far and away the nicest, although much pricier.

Hawkeye748
June 9, 2009, 10:28 PM
I am not familar with the Pedersoli 1861. Usually, they make a pretty fair weapon, but as a rule, they need lock work and hardening.

Next month, I may be in TN near Dixie and will take a look at the current Miroku.

Phantom Captain
June 10, 2009, 10:49 AM
Nope, wrong again.

I have the Pedersoli 1861 Springfield and it's definitely one of my favorites in my rather large CW collection. The lock internals, tumbler and sear are case hardened as they should be. I do believe that's why they cost more. Mine is beautiful and shoots great. I do cast all my own minies though for consistency.

It's not finished as it would have been originally from the armory but the finish is beautiful. The stock is extremely pretty and has a glossy satin finish. Springs and screws are bright and not blued as they would have been if issued. The stain color is a bit brighter and not as dark as the original stain either.

Are you looking for a defarbed version, that is, as it would have looked during the war or just looking for a quality repro that shoots well?

Here's my Pedersoli 1861. I don't take this one to reenactments, it's for shooting only.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/mboyd13/shooting%2008/IMG_4743.jpg

I don't have a ton of good pics of the Pedersoli unfortunately. Here it is on the bottom under my Richmond Rifle. You can see how shiny and satiny the finish is.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/mboyd13/civil%20war%20weapons/all1.jpg

This is my defarbed 1855 Harpers Ferry Rifle. You can see the screws and spring are blued and the stock is a bit darker. It's an Armi Sport with all modern markings removed. It's a beauty too and actually a great shooter. This is how the original guns during the war would have looked as issued.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/mboyd13/Gun%20pictures/IMG_5964.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/mboyd13/Gun%20pictures/IMG_5965.jpg

AdmiralB
June 10, 2009, 09:42 PM
Next month, I may be in TN near Dixie and will take a look at the current Miroku.


There is no 'current Miroku'...Miroku doesn't do replicas anymore and Dixie only has a few leftover guns and kits. Further, there is no source for parts anymore either (Dixie's out of most of them, and no more are being made).

Hawkeye748
June 11, 2009, 02:18 AM
Admiral,

I guess that is why you had a bad one. They only thing left are the ones rejected for whatever reason and kits. I appreciate the information. As a rule, I buy very little from Dixie anymore so I assumed that the Miroku was still being made since it is still in the catalog and listed on line.

Parts will likely not be a problem. Lodgewood and S&S carry the parts also and there are enough of the Miroku's out there. If they need the part, they have machinists available to turn them out for them to fit demand. They will require a little fitting but nothing major. They do this with several weapons.

Captain,

I have experience with 2 Pedersoli weapons. A Sharps 45-70 and a Sharps percussion carbine. While fit and finish were excellent, Both required that the internals be hardened after shooting for a bit. One would not hold full cock, the other would not hold half cock. Both due to wear. Fix was easy, but still needed work.

You point to your collection, which you have a right to be proud of, to give yourself props. Okay you have yours, now may I give you mine?

Collection consists of roughly 40 CW firearms. About Half are original. I own Repeaters, percussion Carbines, Single shot cartridge carbines, Rifles, Rifle Muskets, Rifled Muskets, Smoothbores, Revolvers. I have custom builts, originals I shoot, some I won't, custom barreled and some as bought, such as the Zolie and PH I mentioned in response to David's other post. I cast roughly 1500 Minie balls, 800 .69 round ball, and about 2000 carbine bullets of 2 types yearly to support MY shooting. I buy the 44 bullets for the cartridge guns and round ball for .36 and 44 revolvers because I don't have time to cast them. I have a 1st aggregate Smoothbore in Expert class with the N-SSA from Fall National competition 2005. A ton of lesser medals.

Now, does my opinion mean anything? I am not a novice at this.

Your experience was different than mine. Good for you. The Admiral and I had different experiences so we disagree. Neither is right or wrong, just different opinions. Show the kind of respect for others opinions that the Admiral does. You might get promoted!!!:D

AdmiralB
June 11, 2009, 09:19 PM
As a rule, I buy very little from Dixie anymore so I assumed that the Miroku was still being made since it is still in the catalog and listed on line.

It's in the 2009 catalog, but it's not online. I asked about that and they told me they took them off the website since there are only a few left.

I might have bought one - when I was there, they'd have let me pick through what was left, to get a 'good one' - but honestly, the DGW stamping just put me off. It's even on the kits.

And even THEN I might do it, but not for full list.

BHP FAN
June 11, 2009, 09:54 PM
Try Fall Creek Suttlery.Good stuff.

AdmiralB
June 11, 2009, 09:59 PM
Try Fall Creek suttlery.Good stuff.

Maybe if you already know what you want. I'm about forty minutes from them; I went there a few months ago thinking I'd look a bunch of stuff over, and what I found was a little concrete block building full of clothing and frontier recipe books.

I asked about muskets, and they (the late-teenish girls working there) said they didn't have any.

I get the idea that you order from them, they order from someone else.

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