Does this concern anyone else?


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Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 12:33 AM
Freedom Group is the world’s leading innovator, designer, manufacturer, and marketer of firearms, ammunition, and related products for the hunting, shooting sports, law enforcement, and military markets. As one of the largest manufacturers in the world of firearms and ammunition, we have some of the most globally recognized brands including Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS/Panther Arms, Marlin, Harrington & Richardson, New England Firearms, L.C. Smith, Parker, EOTAC, and INTC.


"I am pleased to announce that Dakota Arms is joining Remington and the Freedom Group of companies,” stated Ted Torbeck, CEO Remington Arms Company, Inc. and Freedom Group Inc.

Is it just me or are a few corporate holding companies buying up all the 'arms' manufacturers.

Another one bites the dust, now we'll have to bid farewell to the fine Dakota built firearms... because if Remington is going to start making them... yuk!

The fact that one large company owns a lot of the smaller ones... what if that large company decides to get rid of all the smaller companies for one reason or another... I just don't like it.:cuss:

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trstafford
June 10, 2009, 01:00 AM
A lot of the manufacturers of hunting arms are not faring well because everyone is buying black rifles. The big boys have new product to introduce but can't keep up with orders so they are not bringing them out. They can use the small companies to make the new products or help with back orders.

sarduy
June 10, 2009, 01:08 AM
what about if the gov get a hold of the big company like it did with GMC and decide to close them all?:cuss:

Kind of Blued
June 10, 2009, 01:34 AM
what about if the gov get a hold of the big company like it did with GMC and decide to close them all?

We start more. It's how America works. :)

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 09:06 AM
hmmmm... Hitler did the same thing....

... and Stalin-
... and Hirohito-
... and Saddam Hussein-
... and Mussolini-
... and Ho Chi Minh-
... and Alija Izetbegovic'

And the list goes on...

Shear_stress
June 10, 2009, 09:50 AM
what about if the gov get a hold of the big company like it did with GMC and decide to close them all?

Uh, GM practically begged to be "taken a hold of".

Guitargod1985
June 10, 2009, 11:29 AM
I thought Remington, Buhsmaster, Marlin, etc. were held by Cerberus Capital Management.

P.B.Walsh
June 10, 2009, 11:42 AM
It dosent really scare me, but it might or might not be a bad thing, time will only tell.

Justin
June 10, 2009, 11:46 AM
hmmmm... Hitler did the same thing....

... and Stalin-
... and Hirohito-
... and Saddam Hussein-
... and Mussolini-
... and Ho Chi Minh-
... and Alija Izetbegovic'

And the list goes on...

They all started privately-held holding companies that they used to consolidate smaller companies in order to get products to market in a more efficient fashion?

How very odd, I don't remember reading anything about that. Please enlighten us.

ArmedBear
June 10, 2009, 11:58 AM
I think that calling Remington a gunmaker is being somewhat generous of late. "Innovator and designer" are almost laughable.

The only thing about this conglomerate that bothers me is that Marlin is no longer an independent company. They'll now be under pressure to build junk like the rest, instead of the fine, competitively-priced guns they've somehow continued to build while their competitors (e.g. Winchester) fell all around them.

Black rifle makers (even good ones) are a dime a dozen these days. "Bushmaster" meant a lot more during the Clinton years than it does now. Politically, its good to have big gunmakers whose products are under the threat of bans, though. I've never actually purchased a complete AR in a box, and I probably never will, so the conglomerate makes very little difference to me in the black rifle area, except politically, where I think it's a good thing.

LC Smith is a joke: Turkish guns by yet another name? Parker is kind of funny, too. For that money, I'll just get something high-end and British, and have more options to choose from (if I ever have that money to spend on a shotgun). Maybe this holding company will actually do something good with LC Smith and Parker. That would be a good thing, though I don't think it'll happen.

H&R? Unless they make their revolvers again, I don't care all that much. Buffalo Classic is kinda nice, though...

Big conglomerates who think they can run a bunch of boutique companies like they're commodity producers are almost inevitably abject failures. They tend to focus on cost savings, building junk and resting on a past reputation (Remington was edging closer and closer to this on its own). See AMF.

I'm guessing that half these companies will be gone in 10 years, after the market has rejected them for building junk. The government won't have to do a thing.

Maybe, like AMF Harley, they'll be bought in bankruptcy by their employees and stage a comeback.

Maybe, like AMF Voit, they'll go from the top of the heap to the trash heap.

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 12:44 PM
They all started privately-held holding companies that they used to consolidate smaller companies in order to get products to market in a more efficient fashion?

..."in order to get product to market in a more efficient manner"-
I am not saying that these people did what your suggesting-
And, IMHO, I do not think freedom group is doing that either.

They(the above list) did start privately- held holding companies as to manipulate industry pre war(s).
Enlighten your self with a search on some of the antics these guys did to further their agenda.

These guys bought up companies with state monies and quietly dissolved some and furthered others so as to build the might they needed for the looming conflicts.

This probably has nothing to do with Freedom Group... just thought it might raise some concern as to one company having controle over so many areas we all love.

peace:D

Justin
June 10, 2009, 01:08 PM
Soooo...what you're saying is that they're pretty much nothing alike, and trying to draw comparisons between Freedom Group and Hitler is without merit.

Reid73
June 10, 2009, 01:15 PM
IIRC, about three years ago Dakota Arms Inc. was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, and its assets were sold to a ground of investors using the name Dakota Arms LLC. Presumably (???) the "new" company was finding it hard to stay afloat in these challenging economic times, and so the deal was done.

"One of the largest manufacturers in the world of firearms and ammunition". Check.

"The world’s leading innovator, designer, manufacturer, and marketer of firearms, ammunition, and related products". In their dreams! :rolleyes:

ArmedBear
June 10, 2009, 01:19 PM
they're pretty much nothing alike, and trying to draw comparisons between Freedom Group and Hitler is without merit.

I'd agree with you Justin.

However, I do think that holding companies can be a lot like Eric Cartman (bloated, navel-gazing, and blind to their own problems). And Eric Cartman fantasizes about being Hitler.

So there's SOME connection. It's about as tenuous as it gets, of course...:D

http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/sykonist/south-park/Cartman-Hitler-zoomed-256x256.png

Deckard
June 10, 2009, 01:27 PM
Its generally a bad thing for the consumer when companies become this bloated. The guys on the top get further and further away from the finished product and little things like quality and customer service seem to be neglected. Hopefully these companies don't do to themselves what the American Auto Industry has done. I don't want to see anymore American companies go under or be sold off to foreign interests, especially emblems like Remington and Marlin. That said, I'll never buy a substandard rifle just to help them out...I'm a consumer first. So when I buy my next bolt action it'll probably be a CZ.

Reid73
June 10, 2009, 01:43 PM
I don't want to see anymore American companies go under or be sold off to foreign interests, especially emblems like Remington and Marlin. I won't shed any tears over Remington (the GMC of firearms manufacturers).

Marlin, well, that would be a shame; but there are so many of their products available secondhand that anyone who really wants one will not have to do without.

I'll never buy a substandard rifle just to help them out...I'm a consumer first.Exactly right!

P.B.Walsh
June 10, 2009, 01:58 PM
What's wrong with Remington?

Reid73
June 10, 2009, 02:00 PM
Basically, the same things that are wrong with GM.

Green Dragoon
June 10, 2009, 03:56 PM
This is the norm in almost every industry. Many name brands we grew up with now belong to the company they used to compete with. One can only hope that they do not sell out to the wrong people.

Reid73
June 10, 2009, 04:30 PM
Well, as King of Blued suggests, the 'hidden hand' of the marketplace will eventually triumph. If existing manufacturers produce only shoddy goods, there will be a niche for new players to emerge.

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 04:38 PM
I thought Remington, Buhsmaster, Marlin, etc. were held by Cerberus Capital Management

I did also, maybe Freedom and Cerberus are intertwined somehow?
I'll have to check into that.

I do agree that it is better to have these companies bought by American holding companies and not foreign firms.

However we can reasonably assume, and it would be an assumption, that the quality of the future produced firearms by these companies will suffer... just look at Remington.

As far as larger companies consolidating a group of smaller companies to get their product more efficiently to the consumer.... a.... no!

consolidating to increase their profit margin, buy up the compitition or for some kind of political venue is more like it.
:D

ArmedBear
June 10, 2009, 04:44 PM
As far as larger companies consolidating a group of smaller companies to get their product more efficiently to the consumer.... a.... no!


That only works when you have a bunch of smaller local players, all producing a virtually identical commodity.

When you have a number of niche companies, playing in a similar marketplace with different products, mostly boutique products, I can't see ALL that much room to improve efficiency with size. What you get is a bunch of suits from corporate, flying in, telling you "make it cheaper" and flying home.

Remington could do many things better than it does. But having distant corporate overlords doesn't make that any easier. Remington could, and should, improve itself.

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 04:54 PM
What you get is a bunch of suits from corporate, flying in, telling you "make it cheaper" and flying home.

yea, and that's after the layoffs-

JohnBT
June 10, 2009, 04:57 PM
Freedom Group is owned by Ceberus Capital Management. It's the firearms branch.

"So, who are these guys? Well, take off your tinfoil beanies. One of the managing directors for Cerberus is George K. Kollitides and he is running for Board of Directors for the National Rifle Association. Here’s one bio:

Nominated by the NRA Nominating Committee, Kollitides has spent his adult life supporting the Second Amendment. A Benefactor member, he became an NRA Life member as a young man. He serves on the Boards of Remington and Bushmaster. He is an avid shooter and hunter, and is a Life member of TSRA, CRPA, NYSRPA, ATA, Boone and Crockett (Associate), Houston Safari Club, NMLRA and Quail Unlimited.

Kollitides is a member of Remington Collectors, SAFE, NWTF, and the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance. As a Managing Director of Cerberus Capital Management, he oversees the firm’s interests in the firearms industry. He has managed numerous financial transactions and is a noted financial forum speaker. Kollitides has shot since childhood and enjoys hunting with family and friends.

His wife and children are NRA Life members. As a staunch defender of Second Amendment freedoms, he is honored to be nominated for the NRA Board."

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 05:00 PM
Freedom Group is owned by Ceberus Capital Management. It's the firearms branch.


Well, there's our answer! Thanx JohnBT :D

One of the managing directors for Cerberus is George K. Kollitides and he is running for Board of Directors for the National Rifle Association

There may be hope! Let us all hope this guy does right.:)

Maybe freedom is consolidating in the name of preservation!

rcmodel
June 10, 2009, 05:07 PM
See Cerberus Chrysler & GMAC holdings in this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management

rc

Big_E
June 10, 2009, 05:11 PM
So... should I sell my Rem. 700? I could always use more money these days... before all businesses close and then I will be almost forced to work for Walmart.

edit: I mean ever since GM took the bailout money, I was really aware of the degrade in quality of their cars lately. I have a 2005 Malibu and I have noticed little things that go bad and need servicing. My dad got a C6 Corvette and I would almost consider it a lemon, it still is a good car but he had to take it back to the dealership several times to get it to work right.

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