Im sure im not the only one that modifies existing knive/machetes into (what i think) nice looking knives or weapons. Lets see yours.
Here are sone pics of knives that i have made out of pangas/machetes. The one "Wakizashi" has a Hippo tusk handle and aluminium gaurd. The hippo was killed by our resident dominant male, and his tusks robbed. The aluminium came from some or other telephone line gadget. The other Wakizashi has a wood coverd in puff-adder skin handle with the same aluminium gaurd. My pig sticking knife has a warthog tusk as a handle. The colors are due to heat treating, decorative on the Wakizashis (done with a blow torch) and functional with the pig sticker(heated in a fire and dunked into dirty engine oil). Machete steel makes very good knife steel when heat treated and holds a good edge for a while. The pig sticker is carried when hunting with my BP rifle.
These knives have been made for the fun of it and im aware that there are many talented knife makers out there. I would like to see other pics of "AMATURE" knives, not custom built stuff out of fancy steel, even though they are beautiful. I live in the middle of the bush and use what i can find or have. The pig stickers scabbard is made from a wooden tamato box coverd in leather.
Lets see your creations.
Dylan
Oh yes, im busy with a glorified machete at the moment. Ill get a pic up soon.
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Dave Markowitz
June 11, 2009, 02:45 PM
Very cool, i especially like the pig sticker.
7X57chilmau
June 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
Ah, backyard knife making! Near and dear to my heart, this is....
I built a charcoal forge 4 years ago, and have dabbled in hand forged knives since, turning out maybe a half dozen a year. I forge most from leaf and coil springs (5160 for all intents and purposes), though I forge small pen knives and arrow points from 1/4" music wire (1085).
I harden by heating to transition (dull red, 1085 goes non-mag), and quenching in used engine oil. Then temper by temper colours according to the hardness/toughness the knife will need in it's intended service.
I don't own most of these anymore, I give most away as gifts. Many have seen hard service, none have yet been broken. they all hold a decent edge for a decent time.
Spear, 6' X 1.125" hardwood shaft, 13" OAL spearhead, 6" blade.... Forged from HC railroad spike (1040)
I like your style 7X57 and I love your forge! Looks almost like mine only mine is a little more "portable."(which means everything gets hauled back in the garage when I'm done.) Great idea for a thread Mokwepa. I don't have any new photos to post yet but hope to this weekend. Good Luck!:)
Mokwepa
June 12, 2009, 03:09 AM
My goodness, ive got some work to do. Ive been keen on the home forging process but my problem is that all my work is done in a staff village at the lodge where i work ie. they will get pi#$%d with all the DING,DING, Ding and then some more.
Are there any good sites that will tell me how to build a very simle furnace?
messerist
June 12, 2009, 07:21 AM
Try http://IForgeiron.com. It is a blacksmithing forum similar to THR. A lot of good guys and gals there with lots of great info. Also try Tim Lively's web site. http://livelyknives.com Good Luck!:)
7X57chilmau
June 12, 2009, 08:10 AM
Thanks guys!
Mokwepa, my forge is loosely based on Tim Lively's forge, Messerist linked to his site...
Anvil Fire is another good smithing website, much more than just knifemaking...
Also, "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Beale is an invaluable book of general techniques in the forge.
Those were my info sources to start out....
J
Eric Draven
June 12, 2009, 09:31 PM
Very nice bro. Keep up the good work and youre gonna be GREAT at this stuff. Youve got the talent obviously....now just harness it and go nuts. :) Keep on keeping on.
messerist
June 13, 2009, 09:51 PM
And let's not forget, a ready supply of hippo tusks!:)
longtooth
June 13, 2009, 10:10 PM
Thanks for posting the pics. I made some a LOOOONG time ago & others getting stated remind me of the fun.
Mokwepa
June 14, 2009, 12:46 AM
Ive started building my forge. Thanks for the links. I used a pressure chamber from a water pressure pump and stuck a piece of steel tube drilled full of holes along the bottom. All i can get to line the forge with is fire cement that they use to plaster fireplaces with, do you think that this will be OK?
My air sorce will be a small compressor. Will the steel tube that supplies the air not melt in the high heat or will it be ok due to it being at the bottom of the fire?
messerist
June 14, 2009, 01:00 AM
I believe that the fire cement will do fine. I've seen forges lined with plan old dirt that made some fine stuff The fire cement should keep your pipe from melting but eventually you will need to reline your forge and replace the pipe.
gb6491
June 14, 2009, 01:28 AM
Are there any good sites that will tell me how to build a very simle furnace?
Here are some links to help with building your own forge;
http://gbrannon.bizhat.com/forge.htm
Here are a couple of e-books that might be of interest as well:
http://ftpforge.chez-alice.fr/Blacksmithing.pdf
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/blacksmith/farmshop.html
I do a little amateur making myself; here's one made from an old file, an elk tine and a piece of brass from an old punch:
http://i38.tinypic.com/8zh4b8.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2s7go3o.jpg
My forge (only for heat treatment, I do stock removal) is just some firebricks and pavers stacked together (skillet holds the quench medium):
http://i41.tinypic.com/2i03cbp.jpg
The heat source is a modified weed burner from Harbor Freight; I replaced the stock burner assy. with a homemade one:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2e4ym4k.jpg
Here's a shot of the blade right after being quenched:
http://i39.tinypic.com/r908qd.jpg
Regards,
Greg
Mokwepa
June 14, 2009, 05:02 AM
Here is the latest modified machete with warthog tusk handle. I like how the scabbard came out.
bikerdoc
June 14, 2009, 10:01 AM
Greg.
Nice work, make a 3 inch and we can talk trade
Mokwepa
June 14, 2009, 02:02 PM
Tried my forge out but the compressor contraption doesnt work that great, but a hairdryer does:)
What would cause the steel (leaf spring) to crack when its beaten, am i beating it when its cooled down too much?
7X57chilmau
June 15, 2009, 10:18 AM
Usually, it's forging cold.
When I forge from files, first thing I do is cook the temper out. Just toss it on the fire and heat it until it's past blue temper colour, and it's good. This prevents the cold part you hold from shattering due to impact.
Heat in the forge to yellow heat, and then forge only until about dull red. Never forge black steel.
About your air-source: You need good volume at medium-low pressure. Hair driers may cut it for a very small forge, but are generally a bit low pressure, especially as the fire matures and the fuel particles begin to "clump up". The compressor is really the worst choice, all about pressure without high volume....
Alot of guys use a fairly large diameter squirrel cage blower with a waste gate arrangement. Blower runs all the time and a butterfly style valve directs the air either to the fire or out a waste gate....
An old hand-cranked forge blower really is the best way to go, so keep an eye out. Small-time smithing is probably more alive in Africa than anywhere else in the world, I'd bet you can find suitable equipement quite easily!
Be aware, though, this is addictive! It eats more time than money, at least....
J
hso
June 15, 2009, 11:15 AM
If you have a propane torch and access to fire brick you can make a simple, but effective, gas forge in minutes.
My one brick that was used all weekend to forge knives at the ABS Youth Hammer-In is little more than a single fire brick and a propane torch.
Just hollow a fire brick carefully and then drill a hole through the upper 1/3 into the chamber to fit the tip of a propane torch. Fire up the torch and you have a forge that will heat steel to forging temperatures. Since the torch is naturally aspirated you don't have to worry about a blower.
I think there were 5 or 6 knives forged with my dinky little portable gas forge this weekend. I used a Colman bottle adapter so I could use 20lb propane bottles, but I've forged using just the disposable bottles before.
Here's a 2 brick (http://www.woodsmonkey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=233:mini-forge&catid=41:how-to-articles&Itemid=63) that is fundamentally similar to my single.
If you have a coffee can and refractory wool and cement you can make a coffee can mini forge.
http://www.zoellerforge.com/turboforge.jpg
7X57chilmau
June 15, 2009, 11:54 AM
I'm really gonna have to try one of those, HSO, if only just for the novelty! Beauty!
J
Mokwepa
June 15, 2009, 02:35 PM
Hi guys
Thanks for the tips and advice. Ive started my first hand forged blade, still a bit of work to do. Got yelled at by the boss for making too much noise :D though. I think it came out good for my first attempt. I had to do a bit of trimming and i did cut the tang out with a angle grinder, is this considerd cheating? I realy like the black, dented, textured look. Im not being lazy, i just like the hand forged look, people can see that it is not a cheap(i supose its cheaper, you know what i meen) store bought knife and that someone has slaved over a fire, hammer in hand. The handle will be a horn from a waterbuck and im planning on doing a hammer forged gaurd the same shape as the horn. Do you glue the handle on some of the tangs, if so what do you use? I would like to keep the handle clean (no rivets). Let me know what you think and what i should have done differently.
You are right, this is very addictive. Cant wait to start the next. It gives you that, im proud of what ive done, feeling:)
hso
June 15, 2009, 02:50 PM
Drill a pilot hole for the tang in the horn and then heat the tang to burn it into the handle. Then pull it out and fill with epoxy.
Then carefully drill a hole through the whole thing and drive a piece of small rod (welding rod) through and nip it off. Peen the rod to smooth it and you'll have a knife that won't come apart.
Traditional methods would have involved the use of tree sap and wool/hair wrapped around the tang to serve for the epoxy.
7X57chilmau
June 16, 2009, 08:56 AM
Not too shabby! Keep your hammer face parallel to the anvil to avoid those hammer face marks....
Hso's handle mounting method will be great on this one. I'd suggest using brass rod for the pin, easier to peen. You're probably gonna want to anneal the tang a bit after heat treat to ensure your drill can cut it!
Heat treat normally (heat to uniform dull red (magnet doesn't stick), quench in oil, clean up the surface and heat slowly to desired temper colour. I'd suggest a straw to brown colour for the working edge, brown-purple for the bulk of the spine, blue at the guard area of the tang, and cooked out past blue for the bulk of the tang. The last thing you want is a brittle tang.
J
Mokwepa
June 16, 2009, 02:18 PM
Thanks for the info. I will try that when i get to the heat treatment part.
Tell me though, after all the shaping and annealing part, where im at now, I want to get the blade ready for heat treatment. The blade is coverd in scale, how do i get this off? On one of the sites, they said that i must put the blade in white vinaagar for a few minutes the wirebrush it. I tried this and it doesnt work.
What should i try next?
7X57chilmau
June 16, 2009, 03:03 PM
Ah, scale....
Forget vinegar.
I use a wire wheel on my 6" bench grinder. There is no need to remove it before hardening, but it has to be removed before tempering so you can see the colours...
After the hardening quench, a bunch of the scale will have come off, probably 30-40%, from the thermal shock. Now, dry the knife as best you can (no need for perfection), and CAREFULLY use the wire wheel on your bench grinder to remove the scale. Expect to spend half an hour or so, less with more experience. You'll be left with a bright, but "marked" blade. Be aware that if you drop the blade on a hard surface now, it will likely break (it is VERY hard and brittle... A file will not "bite" and will just skate on the blade). It doesn't need to be perfect, but you've got to be able to see the colours progress thru the steel.
Now comes the fun part, tempering.
Get a nice mature bed of coals going in your forge. Lots of small, fully involved coals, no black (cold) spots. Lay the knife on top of the coals with the tang fully over the coals, the spine of the blade over coals, and the edge and point out of the coals about 1/2" or so... Watch and wait, DO NOT BLOW THE FIRE. In a couple minutes, you'll start to notice the hottest parts of the knife (hopefully the tang) begin to darken, then yellow. The yellow darkens to brown, then startes to blue, then purple..... Finally back to a dull metallic colour....
Cool the blade. Quench or air cool as is your preference.
If you do it right, and move the blade now and again to keep heat where you need it and away from where you don't, you'll end up with a blade that's purple/blue along the tang, spine, brown at the tip, and yellow at the most used areas of the edge. A tough flexible spine and tang with a razor holding edge.
If you screw up, just go back to hardening, and try again. Most of my early knives took several attempts to get the HT right.
The biggest trouble I had at the start was warping blades in the hardening process. This is caused by 2 things: Either you're quenching one side faster than the other (hold the knife edge-down and vertical in the quench medium, and move it up-and-down, not side-to-side)...... Or..... Your last forging operations were done with too-cold steel. I've made a habit of doing several straightening heats at the end of forgeing, hammering very lightly to finally straighten the blade. Avoid just bending straight, that warps more...
Man, if you're ever by this corner of the world, I'd show ya.... So many words for an ultimately simple process, and I'm not sure I explained well....
J
Valkman
June 16, 2009, 06:08 PM
Get a nice mature bed of coals going in your forge.
Or buy a $20 toaster oven at Wal-Mart. That's how I temper my carbon steel blades.
Cool the blade. Quench or air cool as is your preference.
Do not quench after tempering! Let it cool on it's own to room temp.
hso
June 16, 2009, 06:16 PM
Or cool in vermiculite.
We just grind the scale off on a belt.
Mokwepa
June 17, 2009, 12:41 AM
Thanks very much. All help and advice is greatly appreciated. I got ALL tghe scale off with vinagar. I read wrong, soak for a few hours not minutes. Just wiped the scale off with a pot scourer in the morning.
Going to start making the gaurd today and when thats done, going to heat treat. Can i not just use a blowtorch to temper, like i did on my modified machetes to get that yellow, brown, purple color?
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 08:56 AM
Perhaps you could, but getting a consistant temper may be challenging...
I have tempered knives in my wife's oven before, but that eliminates the ability to apply differential temper.
Valkman, I've read dozens of books that say how the piece is cooled after tempering does not matter, for plain carbon steels.... And so far, my experience has born this out. Why should one not quench the tempered blade? Genuinely curious!
J
Valkman
June 17, 2009, 12:18 PM
Why would you quench it, unless you're in a hurry? Just like normalizing steel before heat treat, it should be allowed to cool on it's own.
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 01:15 PM
:)
Valkman, I'm always in a hurry! With the wife (7 mo preggers) and 2year old daughter at home, finding time to mess about making knives is a serious challenge, especially when mixed in with my other time consuming hobbies... I've never spent more than 1 day making any knife's blade....
I've never had the opportunity to study under an experienced smith, just have a few books and the good ole' internet to go on. This is the first time I've seen someone warn against quenching following temper. Most state that you may quench or not, as is your preference.... But alot of these sources were written a hundred years ago (or at least over 50), so probably knowledge has advanced since then....
I'll let'em cool more slowly next time, see if I can discern a difference...
J
maskedman504
June 17, 2009, 02:26 PM
This is one of the most genuinely interesting reads I have had on this forum in a long time.
Mokwepa
June 17, 2009, 02:52 PM
Made the handgaurd today. Need to drill the hole/slot for the tang, i tried to drill the steel today after it had cooled down at room temperature, the drillpress didnt even dent it.
If i let the steel cool down in the fire overnight does it make it that much softer?
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 03:07 PM
When I need to drill a tang (I avoid this at all costs, but sometimes...), I place the blade in my forge, in a decent bed of coals, fully involved. Blade is buried with about 1/3rd of the fire above it. Heat to transition as if hardening, then stop. Then I cover the forge and leave it overnight. By morning, the steel is as soft as it's gonna be. Usually I'm forging 5160 (leaf springs), and in this condition it is just barely soft enough to drill or thread with a die. Use lots of oil and be sure to feed with certainty. If the drill stops cutting, it'll work-harden the surface and you're back to square one. To keep the drill happy, whenever the smoke begins to come up, retract the bit and re-oil immediately.
You should expect to kill a bit now and again...
The other alternative is to punch the hole in the forge.... But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
J
Mokwepa
June 17, 2009, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the quick reply.
I am using a leaf spring and its quite thick +-4mm for the gaurd. Do you think its worth a try?
I wanted the gaurd to match the blade(forge beaten texture). Im kinda going for the primitive fighter look, if that exists. Looks kind of cool if i can get a slot through the guard. Ill try drill it tonight and report in the morning.
Im sure this is very involved, but how do you guys make your gaurds/end caps? Brass is cool but i cannot get brass here. Ive even thought of melting down pins from a electrical plug. Would it be possible? What else do you use?
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 03:39 PM
It exists if you make one! I thought you were just drilling a pin hole for the handle, hobbing out the square slot in a spring steel guard will be a royal pain!
Haven't put a guard on a knife yet that wasn't an integral forging.... But, I'd consider just about soft metal. There is no need for hard steel here! Forge the guard from mild steel or wrought iron, I KNOW you have that available. The final forged texture will be similar to forged spring steel, but slightly milder looking (a bit smoother).
If you decide not to forge the guard, hacksaw and file work will turn one out of aluminum, brass, copper etc. fairly easily.
Some brasses can be forged too, as can aluminum, copper etc., tho some are easier than others. NEVER FORGE OR HEAT GALVANIZED STEEL OR OTHER ZINC ALLOYS - IT WILL RELEASE POISONOUS FUMES.
Plumbing fixtures can be a source of brass. More brass in bigger stuff, like irigation system valves.
I'm sure you can find brass somewhere nearby!
J
Mokwepa
June 17, 2009, 04:07 PM
I can get lots of brass irrigation fittings etc. Can i melt these down with a normal knife making forge, if so, what do you put the brass in for melting?
I think you are right, ill try drill the spring gaurd otherwise im going to make a mild steel one. What do you use to prevent rust when the knife is complete, a non corrosive oil i guess?
Mokwepa
June 17, 2009, 04:11 PM
NEVER FORGE OR HEAT GALVANIZED STEEL OR OTHER ZINC ALLOYS - IT WILL RELEASE POISONOUS FUMES.
Thanks for the tip. Im very sure i would of tried it at some stage.
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 04:27 PM
If the knife is just not allowed to lay around wet, rust isn't a huge problem. Also, if it's in daily use, it's not a huge problem.
Over time, an oxide coating will form on the blade that is somewhat protective. Mottled grey looking. You can force it by wrapping the blade in papertowel and soaking that with vinegar for a couple hours. This oxide coating is essentially similar to gun bluing. It will hold oil on the blade to provide some protection.
I've used just about any oil from air tool oil to militec to food safe oils, depending on what I intended to use the knife for.
Most often, though, I don't do anything more than ensuring the knife is washed and dried promptly after use. I use a couple of my knives in the kitchen, and they receive no special treatment.
If a knife rusts up on you, use a scotchbrite pad to restore it. Don't do this on polished blades, but for forge finished ones, works just fine.
J
7X57chilmau
June 17, 2009, 04:30 PM
Read this story: Both true and tragic. Any forge operator should know this.
Look up the Forge Safety section from the navigation bar on anvilfire and heed the warnings. http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/
Mokwepa
June 18, 2009, 01:05 AM
Poor dude. Teach him for not sticking to knife forging. Showns how quick things can go wrong hey.
Drilled the gaurd last night.....like a knife through butter. Must of got my annealing just right.
Mokwepa
June 18, 2009, 05:03 AM
Got the gaurd to fit. I have two options and questions for treatment and fitting the gaurd.
1#Can i fit the gaurd to the blade and heat treat the blade and gaurd together in one piece?
2#If i treat the blade first and let it cool then heat the gaurd up red and do the final fit, will this upset the heat treatment of the blade?
maskedman504
June 18, 2009, 05:18 AM
Haha.
This thread should be title "Journeyman Knife Making".
So much knowledge I am lacking; I thought a bench-grinder, set of files and some stones were the way to go.
So much to learn there is; I must. /Yoda
7X57chilmau
June 18, 2009, 10:53 AM
Mokwepa,
You could do the tempering either way, with the guard on or off. If the guard is very large, it could over-heat the already tempered blade and soften it right at the blade/handle interface... Not good. But to do that, the guard would have to hold enough heat to raise the blade temp over about 500F before the guard cools.
I'd probably HT the 2 together.... But I'm not sure about that...
If I assembled after heat treat, I'd assemble quickly and quench the guard asap to prevent too much heating.
Heat treating simple carbon steel can be simple or complex, it seems. For centuries, the village smith did HT as I described, more or less. Heat to transition (Loved the description of transition in your link, HSO), quench, temper. A 30 minute operation.
Now, if you look up recommended HT for 1095, for instance, you find that to get the most from the steel, you've got precise temps, hold times, and about a 3 or 4 hour process. That's not practical in an open charcoal forge run by an amature like myself. I've gotten pretty useable results with the older traditional technique. I'm sure it would be better if I followed the more modern procedures, but....
Havin' fun yet, Mokwepa?
J
7X57chilmau
June 18, 2009, 11:00 AM
Maskedman,
Nope, this is pure amature forging!
There are basically 2 ways to make a knife. You can hit steel until it's knife shaped, or you can carve away all the steel that isn't knife with files and grinders.... Many very professional knife makers use both techniques, both turn out very good blades....
I forge because I love the primal nature of fire, steel and hammer. And I was able to assemble the equipment on the cheap. Excluding fuel, my setup has me out only about $400.... Fuel costs me about $15/8 hour day, burning Royal Oak Natural Lump charcoal....
J
hso
June 18, 2009, 01:16 PM
There is no heating after the guard goes on.
Oil quench and just don't stick to tang in. You'd prefer to edge quench and then quench the whole blade. Just leave the tang to air cool unquenched.
Mokwepa
June 18, 2009, 02:13 PM
I cannot seen to upload pics.
I did heat treat the blade, then heated the gaurd and fitted it, then temperd the steel. Just need to epoxy the horn on. Ill get a pic soon.
Hope this worked.
Here is the knife basicaly finished. Im busy stitching a scabbard at the moment. Ill take pics with my 30D and put them up so that more detail is shown.
Mokwepa
June 19, 2009, 03:39 PM
The sun is catching it bad but the blade is straw colored. I did overheat the point though with the tempering. It started to turn a brownish color.
Ill wait till the scabbard is finished then put on some more pics.
I need some ideas for a carry knife ie: smallish low profile utility knife. Any of you have ideas?, i have a blade design in mind but would like to do something different with the gaurd/handle.
Is it possible to platt steel? I thought of cutting the tang into three strips and then heat and platt. Think its possible?
7X57chilmau
June 19, 2009, 04:09 PM
Mokwepa, I REALLY like it! You've done what appears to be a great job on your first forged knife!
Don't sweat the brown temper on the point. In many applications, this would actually be desirable, as it leaves the tip somewhat tougher and more resistant to breakage. It is still rather harder than a typical sword of old, and should be well in to the RC50+ range, if all went well.
I don't quite follow you on the question about platt?? Do you mean plate, like plated metal (chrome plating and such)? That is usually done electrochemically. Or do you mean laminating?
If you mean laminating, it's all about forge welding pieces together. That's the first step of making damascus steels. Forge welding is very possible, many do it. It takes alot of practice to get good enough at it to use the end product in a blade. I've had difficulty forge welding. Spring steel will not forge weld well.
I gotta say it again. I'm proud of you, you've done well!
This is the knife design I prefer for a small edc... Forge the tang out straight first, then forge the blade. When all the forging's to your satisfaction, bend the handle and guard to shape. It looks springy and flexible, but with adequate steel sizes, it's quite rigid. The handle material on this one is about 3/16" thick and 1/4" deep where the handle does its bend at the butt. My grip can move the end of the guard by about 1/32", maybe 3/64" if I really squeeze.....
Forged from a leaf spring piece, the blade is 2-3/8" long, 3/32" thick, 7/8" deep, and hollow ground by hand with an angle grinder. Been in a pocket clip sheath in my pocket for 4 years now.
I like simple knives with no furniture. Eventually, handles and scales scratch, break, crack, loosen....
J
bikerdoc
June 19, 2009, 04:34 PM
Nice indeed> been toying to try my first atempt by using an old boken file and using stock removal method. Let you all know what happens.
Mokwepa
June 19, 2009, 04:34 PM
Looks very cool. I would do a longer blade and i dont have a belt grinder to do the hollow grind but i can do a flat grind on my small belt grinder. Ill definately considder. I realy like the handle design. Simple, easy yet functional. Have you got a pic of the clip sheath for me to look at.
Mokwepa
June 19, 2009, 04:45 PM
Bikerdoc, do the hammer forge thing. Its quite easy. I was worried about the tecnical side for a while but have been keen to try it for a while and just never got round to it.
Its very easy with a bit of now how. Have a look at the links given in this thread. Next time you have a barbeque, throw in the file and wip out the hairdrier and before you know it you'll have a hand forged knife. I started by testing my simple forge just to see how easy it was to beat steel and as i hammerd i saw a blade forming and went from there. You will make mistakes as i did but like anything the next one will be better and so on.
The moment you throw that file in the fire, you will not be able to stop. I garantee. It is lots of fun. Keep us posted. Im keen to see other beginner smith's work.
hso
June 19, 2009, 06:40 PM
He means braiding the steel to make it interesting, and yes it is done. You need a bunch of tongs and clamps to make it work.
Get a post vise if you can. That will make like easier.
In the absence of that get a strong forge assistant to hold the uncut end while you plait the ends.
The easiest thing to do is get a piece of steel cable (wire rope) and forge part of it into a single billet with no "braid" and then forge weld the rest so the braid is left visible. You'll need lots of flux for both ends. If you can't get flux readily and cheaply then use borax like in "20 Mule Team" boraxo soap. The borax on the hot metal will remove oxide that will prevent good forge welding of the various strands into a single piece. Look up cable damascus making techniques.
messerist
June 19, 2009, 08:25 PM
I've braided steel by clamping it in my post vise and using a oxy torch to keep the steel red hot and mobile. It looks kinda cool. Will try to find a photo I have of the knife and put it online. It is not digital so it might take a while.
You are truely infected with the knifemaker bug....congrats! Excellent knife:D Do you have access to some local hides/skins for a sheath? That would look cool!
Mokwepa
June 21, 2009, 03:24 AM
I can get certain skins, but i have a big roll of regular cow leather that im using. Will do some cool ingraving on it though and give it that primitive look. Started building my new forge from a car rim. Battling to find a blower though. The wife wont give up her vacume cleaner. Ive got a fan from a small heater, not sure if its enough air though.
Cannot deside what knife to make next. I supose thats the problem of knife making, the possibilities are endless now.
Im keen on making a gladius sword, a loveless design fighter or a utility knife that i can carry, o and a prirate type knife.
Mokwepa
June 21, 2009, 08:19 AM
7x57....
Im starting a similar design to yours with a longer blade(more of a fighter look, yes i like fighters and aggresive looking knives).
The long tang handle, do you start with a flat rectangular bar and forge the long thin tang by beating it on the edge or cut out the thin tang then just heat and beat the skeleton handle ito shape?
hso
June 21, 2009, 10:54 AM
Almost any blower stronger than a computer fan will do, hair drier, vacuum cleaner, even car radiator fans.
Mokwepa
June 22, 2009, 07:33 AM
Ive started the new knife. Doing the curly handle design, type fighter. Done the basic shaping but am putting on hold till the new forge is finished(tomorrow). I took some pics of work in progress but dont have the camera here. Ill put some pics up soon.
7X57chilmau
June 22, 2009, 08:19 AM
Mokwepa,
The EDC knife I posted earlier was forged from a rectangular piece of leaf spring, about 1.5" X 5" when I started, I guess. I recently forged this hunter with a friend from a coil spring section.... Forgeing these from round sections requires some practice with a cross pein or straight pein hammer, to spread the steel in the desired direction.
Sorry i did see that one at the beginning of this thread, good looking hunter!
Im picking up a railway track(soon to be my anvil) this afternoon and the forge is almost done. Getting a high power hair dryer on wednesday (untill i can get something better) then its A for away with the hammer forged knifemaking.
Thanks for the reply, i really hope this thread stays active, i will do my best to post regular updates and pics.
bikerdoc
June 22, 2009, 10:48 AM
Hey guys, for those of us who cant or will not try forging how about some advice on stock reduction.
thanks
Doc
7X57chilmau
June 22, 2009, 10:57 AM
Wish I had some to impart, Doc.... The only stock removal I've ever done is to use an angle grinder or bench grinder to finesse the shape of a blade after forging...
I'd love to hear some basics on stock removal too, including specific low-cost machinery and basic techniques for both hand and power tool use.
J
hso
June 22, 2009, 11:26 AM
Stock removal starts with a flat piece of steal and just bypasses all the heating and beating part. :neener:
Well, there is all that cutting out the profile step instead of beating the thing into shape. ;)
In all seriousness, stock reduction simply substitutes cutting the blade shape from the flat piece of steel and then grinding away the metal on the bevels for beating the flat piece of steel into the blade shape and setting the bevels. Instead of forge and anvil and hammer and tongs you need a saw (it can be as simple as a hack saw or all the way up to an expensive band saw) to cut the shape of the blade, some grinding tool (hand files or up to a nice KMG grinder) and a way to hold the work still while you ply your will to it (I have seen a 2X4 nailed to a bench and a couple of clamps holding the blade blank to it as the simplest way).
That's a pretty 30,000 ft view of things, but I've seen angle grinders and hand files and even palm sanders used to remove metal from the blade blank. I've seen blade blanks cut by drilling holes around the perimeter of the sketched blade shape and then then cuts made along the dotted line with everything from jewler's hand saws to hack saws to jig saws with metal cutting blades. I've seen portaband saws clamped to benches and used for cutting blanks. I've seen inexpensive rotary tools with side cutter bits and expensive narrow blade band saws used to cut blanks and I've seen pricey scroll saws with jewler's blades used. Whatever folks have on hand to speed the work up I've seen used to cut the blank. To shape the bevels for the edge I've seen hand files or angle grinders or upside down palm sanders or 4" bench belt grinders all the way up to "Square Wheel" and KMG knifemaker's belt grinders.
bikerdoc
June 22, 2009, 11:34 AM
Thanks HSO, Gonna give it a try.
highorder
June 22, 2009, 12:16 PM
I've seen blade blanks cut by drilling holes around the perimeter of the sketched blade shape and then then cuts made along the dotted line
I use this method when blanking out blades from material any thicker than .250"
Any thinner and the band saw does the job.
Mokwepa
June 22, 2009, 03:30 PM
I must say though, nothing(almost :)) gives more satisfaction out of hot beating steal into shape. Might not be as pretty by oh so strong and personal. Thats what im after.
I am not disrespecting stock removal (i started this way. but enjoy making life difficalt for myself, i do like the primitive way, i am comentating on how i feel, im 27 and race classic GP bikes (1960 or so, as a hobby, I like older stuff(built good in the old days, before i was born)). My first hammer forged knife has earned its space on my bedside table. It might be my first but im proud and i love it.
Mokwepa
June 22, 2009, 03:36 PM
jig saws with metal cutting blades
done that on my first pangas(SA for machete). It works for sure on anneald steel or not(worked for me before i knew about the word anneald).
This is the new knife that im doing. Just basic shaping done. Will continue this afternoon...hopefully with the new forge.
Oh yes, how do you draw out a blade and prvent it from curving upwards, do you need to flatten out the spine of the blade?
messerist
June 23, 2009, 07:22 AM
Nice forge set up! To keep your blade from bending upward there are several methods. One is to keep the blade straight as you forge, another is to forge a "counter bend" in the blade. Good luck!
Mokwepa
June 23, 2009, 09:08 AM
Thanks messerist, im trying the counter bend tecnique. How would you straighten as you go along? would you not just damage the cutting edge side?
7X57chilmau
June 23, 2009, 09:24 AM
Mokwepa,
That's quite a setup there! Hardcore! Are you forging on an actual rail siding? My first anvil was a ground rail segment, but dammit, it wasn't still attached to the sleepers, LOL!
When I forge a single edge blade, first I curve the blank towards what will be the edge. How much to curve is a bit of an art, and I seldom get it right, but it helps.
If I need to straighten the blade during forgeing (because I misjudged or forgot to pre-bend), then I'll typically place the blade edge up on the anvil and gently strike the highest point with the hammer. This will waver the edge, but that can easily be re-straightened. It is much harder to do this than to pre-bend correctly....
Lookin' forward to seeing your new kit!
J
Mokwepa
June 23, 2009, 09:38 AM
Thanks 7x57. Ill get a pic of my new forge up in about an hour.
Thanks for the tips on forging. Ill definatly try the pre bend on the next knife.
It is just a piece of rail. Got my brother to cut me a shorter piece of track.
Let me go take a pic of the forge
hso
June 23, 2009, 09:49 AM
You need to take a grinder to the face of your hammer and put a very slight crown on it. Shorten the handle a bit as well (a little at at time since having a little too much is much better than a little too little) and you'll find the work to go easier.
As far as the blade curving, flip it over more often.
Also, get a short wooden club that you keep in a bucket of water. Heat the whole thing to red and flatten it with the club. That keeps you from moving metal around, but allows you to flatten the blade as it is held along the section of rail.
The other thing to do is to NOT form the tang that early. You don't have anything to hang onto the way you've done it. Since you cut the tang instead of forged it you can wait to the end to do that anyway.
Mokwepa
June 23, 2009, 10:28 AM
Makes sense.
What do you mean by crowning my hammer, is this rounding the corners of the face?
Ill definatly shorten the handle. it is quite heavy to use.
Ill get the pic of the new forge up in the morning (forgot my camera in the office).
7X57chilmau
June 23, 2009, 10:41 AM
Use a grinder to make the face of the hammer a bit of a dome, so there are no hard corners to print in the blade. My primary forging hammer is a 38oz ballpein, and the "flat face" has been ground so that its center is probably about 1/8" higher than the edge. This also helps the hammer move metal faster when drawing out, as the curve tends to push the metal to the sides like a blunt wedge, instead of just mashing it.
HSO, he doesn't mean the way the blade curves away from the anvil while forgeing, but the way it will curve to the spine as the edge is drawn out. That is solved by curving the blank towards the edge before drawing out....
Mokwepa, if you can, try to mount your new "anvil" on a sturdy stand. The top of the anvil shold be at the height of the base of your fingers as your arm hangs by your side. That will help your hammer face hit parallel to the anvil face, also helping to avoid hammer printing the blades....
Here is the new forge. 2" air inlet, should be enough. Still need to get a good air source (hair dryer for now).
The top of the anvil shold be at the height of the base of your fingers as your arm hangs by your side. That will help your hammer face hit parallel to the anvil face, also helping to avoid hammer printing the blades....
7X57chilmau
June 23, 2009, 11:19 AM
Looks workable! A step or 5 above the last system, I'd say...
FWIW, you can generally remove the fan unit from a hairdrier and run its motor on 12VDC.....
J
bikerdoc
June 23, 2009, 11:37 AM
You guys are amazing. I am lurking and leaning. Thanks for the free education.
7X57chilmau
June 23, 2009, 12:14 PM
Doc, I learn at least as much as I teach, just by having to think about this stuff enough to put it into coherent words. I could post to threads like this for hours....
I found myself at the forge last night for the first time in a few weeks.
I've been on a flint'n'steel firemaking streak now since last fall when I first saw it done (yes, grew up in a cave...). I've forged a few steels and burnt a few tins for tinderboxes.
At work I had one of those Altoids Tiny Tins, about the size of a Zippo. You know where that lead me. To a 2 finger strike-a-light, and the rest of the kit to fit the tiny tin.
Put the kid to bed at 7:45, had fire in the forge by 8 (struck with flint'n'steel, of course). Burnt up the little tin in a charcoal brazier beside the forge. Finally tempered the finished striker at in the fading light just after 9, as the skys began to open up with yet more rain. I'm sick of rain!
Down in the man-cave, I brushed off the scale and tested the striker. A bit harder to use than a full sized one, but plenty workable.
I used a hammer to knock some flakes off a flint I'd picked a couple weeks back, and got one I was satisfied with. I packed about 3' of jute twine around the bottom of the little tin. In the centre, about 10 folded squares of charcloth, then the strike-a-light, and the flint on top.
All told, 2.25 x 1.25 x 0.625" for a flint'n'steel kit. I'm happy!
Sure was a nice way to spend the evening....
J
hso
June 23, 2009, 12:36 PM
The best way to crown a forging hammer is on a slack belt grinder. Quick and easy.
Next would be with a palm sander with a soft pad under the paper. Just angle it so the center is high and work around the center.
Lastly would be the "shoe shine" method using a belt from a large belt sander like a shoe shine stand would buff your shoes. Lots of work, but it produces a great surface without risk of removing too much metal.
7X57chilmau is correct in that you need that chunk of rail on a solid base. If the base absorbs the energy of the hammer blow you don't get a lot done very quickly. The height should be as described, hammer flat on the anvil with the handle horizontal in your hand. That gives good flat hammer blows.
You don't need much more than 6 inches of rail to work on anyway since you can't work much more than 4 inches of bar at a time. Just make sure it is on a solid base that will support it and not rob any of the energy from the hammer.
I used a 4.5" angle grinder and alot of determination to grind a horn on one end, which is useful for bending operations. Unfortunately, I chose to do this in the basement :uhoh:, and the wife became somewhat miffed at me when black rings of iron dust began to surround every magnet on the refrigerator. :what::fire: The angle grinder is now confined to outside use...
:banghead:
Whatever the anvil is mounted to should have a few specific properties. It should above all be stable. It should have the anvil staked to it, so they will move as one. The stand should be resiliant, returning energy back to the hammer. My old anvil was mounted on a wooden stump, but the new one is larger than the easily available stumps in my area (coastal area, stunted growth), so I built a new one out of 2x12 pt lumber. It's basically a truncated paramyd, with the top sized to seat the anvil's foot. The new anvil's about 250#, but I still stake it to the base.
J
Mokwepa
June 24, 2009, 03:19 AM
That is a cool looking piece of track. Going to have to modify mine now....dam you :)
Wow, my new forge works great, even with the hairdryer. Made some progress on the knife however, how often do you change your original design once you see the knife taking shape? I am supposed to be making a smalish carry knife, but after beating yesterday, she looks beatiful big, with very clean lines.
Can you ark weld two pieces of leaf spring together the heat red hot and forge the welded are......ive got a plan just dont know if it can be done, i think it should, what do you guys think?
7X57chilmau
June 24, 2009, 08:57 AM
The silicon content of spring steel makes it all but impossible to weld, from what I've read. I've been tempted to try what you're talking about, with my gassless mig setup, but haven't yet.
I CAN tell ya that it's been an abject failure each time I've attempted to forge weld spring steel either to itself or to mild steel. Just won't "stick", even when clearly at welding heat with adequate flux.
Sometimes when I fire the forge, I know exactly what I want to make. Sometimes the steel tells me what it wants to be. It usually turns out better when I follow my plan, tho...
Smaller knives are, to me, a bit more of a challenge. The heats don't last as long and a mis-struck hammerblow leaves a proportionally larger ding. You'll want to carry your EDC knife, well, every day, so a little more practice before you turn it out wouldn't be a bad thing.
Since your RR track doesn't afford you the use of a hardy, you can use a cold chisel (sharpen it up a bit better than usual) to hot cut steel, if you'd like to truncate a blade. Do this on a scrap bit of steel, not on your anvil (no need to dent up the anvil face...).
J
Mokwepa
June 24, 2009, 09:01 AM
Here is the new knife. I did ark weld the handle and got a good weld, im not sure what is going to happen when i heat and beat the weld though.......guess ill find out soon though. The black line is where im going to trim the blade to my desired shape.
This is the new setup, far away from any sensitive people :), theres going to be lots of Ding were i live. I know the track is too low but it will have to do for now.
Looks like an interesting knife, but she's a biggy! Lookin' forward to seeing it done!
J
hso
June 24, 2009, 09:46 AM
Can you ark weld two pieces of leaf spring together the heat red hot and forge the welded are......ive got a plan just dont know if it can be done, i think it should, what do you guys think?
I'm not sure what you want to do.
Weld two short pieces together to make a longer piece? No, won't work. It will always fail. Even if you're just trying to get a tang longer. You'll always have a weak area.
Weld two pieces on top of each other and then forge out to the larger piece? Yes, that can be done. You have to flux the work heavily and you'll need to get your forge up to high enough temps for the two pieces to weld. Then you have to beat them out and fold them and flux them to death and put them back in the heat. Then repeat. A few more times. Just like making damascus. If you don't do this the inhomogeneities will wreck your finished knife.
As to the steel telling you what it wants to do? All the time. I had one knife when I was learning to forge that had it's own ideas about what it wanted to look like. I only thought I knew what I wanted it to look like. The problem was it kept changing it's mind. At one point it looked like it was going to be a clip, then a drop point, then it was a chisel tip for a minute. Eventually I decided that one of the two of us had to make up their mind and I completed it as a drop point. (in all truth the steel only seems to have a mind of it's own, it's really only the lack of experience or planning on the part of the smith that makes it seem that way {although sometimes it is fun just to see what the steel wants to do on any given day;)})
Silverado6x6
June 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
This is interesting because it shows what challenges some of us all over the Earth have with making efficient tools and how we evolve from that point on.
I was into Japanese sword making techniques and metal folding to work out impurities and I have tons of broken shank huge air tool chisels that we use on these 30 lb. air tool guns to remove concrete from the inside of mixer drums on trucks, these bits are incredibly tough, same material as the smaller air tool chisels you would use in a zip gun, they however do not like to be bent, lots of small sparkles when ground.
I am going to try an idea of wrapping combination's of chain like bicycle, chainsaw or just plain industrial link chain that I have ample supplies of and then hammer wielding this into bars. Wrapping the harder brittle core with a more flexible steel has been done a long time, it using common discarded materials that still allow a superior end product is what counts. Though for centuries the Japanese made swords out of well used old iron skillets that had ingrained carbon in them, nowadays people are talking about the revival of Damascus and using metal combinations that were unheard of years ago.
However I live in Alaska and heavy tools like a really big professional anvil are hard to come by so what I do have is some old bucket loader counterweights that are basically slabs of cast iron, an old large backhoe bucket and lots of heavy structural girders thats been cut up. So I plan to make my own anvil, I can get railroad track as well up here but we do have lots of cast off worn out bucket parts and grader blades because we do a lot of year round road maintenance up here.
I just bought a Seki City Damascus folder that needs to be finished and I am going to use some African gabon ebony on it, would be neat if you could have a supply of wood like that in your area, people would pay plenty for that stuff. Two small pieces of that wood cost me $10 plus shipping.
Mokwepa
June 24, 2009, 10:48 AM
HSO
Have a look at the knife above my last post. I welded the bottom of the handle to the bottom of the blade. All i want to do is blend the weld in with the steel to make it look one piece. I doubt that ill get a reply before i try it, im leaving work in 10min. Ill show you the outcome tomorrow, wish me luck.
It is a big knife but man i love big blades. My EDC at the moment is a Cold steel Rajah 2, quite a monster of a folder.
Mokwepa
June 24, 2009, 10:53 AM
African gabon ebony
Very nice. Beatiful dark wood always looks good.
Ive got access to lots of cool wood out here in the bush. From a live tree(the ones that need to be removed), how is the wood prepared(dried without cracking) into slabs suitable for knife handles?
7X57chilmau
June 24, 2009, 10:56 AM
Silverado6x6,
Cast iron generally makes a poor anvil. It is not resililiant, so it absorbs the hammer blows instead of returning energy to you. It'll work, but you'll work harder.
Railroad track has the opposite problem. Because the web is so thin, it adds alot of spring to the track. Again, you work harder.
The railroad track is better suited to light-duty anvil work, though.
Have a look over on Anvilfire. Lots of people there working cable and roller chain damascuses. Some of it works out VERY well, too!
Consistant forge welding is still beyond me.
Mokwepa, since your weld has held through being made and cooled, I'd guess your chances are pretty good. I've made the odd throwing star, welded from 2 pieces of mild steel. The weld forged out very well. Granted, you've got the additional difficulty of differnt alloys, but I'm somewhat optimistic for ya!
J
hso
June 24, 2009, 11:53 AM
All i want to do is blend the weld in with the steel to make it look one piece.
Because of the differing compositions it won't blend visually. When you clean it up you'll see a difference between the two and it will become more apparent after soaking in vinegar, polishing or as rust forms. On the other hand, if you don't clean it up it may not show.
Silverado6x6
June 24, 2009, 09:06 PM
I really know almost nothing about knifemaking and I am just starting to get involved but from what I understand the wood has to be dried extremely well, the pieces I bought were dried for three years the seller says. This is the seller:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=400053683583
And the knife:http://cgi.ebay.com/Damascus-Seki-City-Linelock-folder-SC-J2_W0QQitemZ330330268196QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ce937e224&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14&_trkparms=|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A30
I am really interested in making my own style of Damascus and I saw this, I made a low bid and was quite surprised that I won it.
Very nice knife! Looks like you are coming along fine!:)
hso
June 25, 2009, 12:23 AM
Look for stamping die blocks. Absolutely amazing to forge on.
Look for old anvils that you can resurface. I'm always surprised by what you can find in old barns and camps.
The Sec/Treas for ABS used it and my hammer and dinky one brick forge at the Youth Hammer-In and he kept commenting on how nice the forge was and then on the hammer and then the anvil. He wanted to know where I got each one and repeating how impressed he was. I paid paid as much for the hammer as I did the forge and not much more for my 165 lb anvil. The anvil came from Terry Jones in MS. The forge was made by my buddy "Bear" in Bristol TN. The hammer came from the guys at Big Blue Hammer.
Mokwepa
June 25, 2009, 07:08 AM
Yep, i should have listend. Do not attempt to weld spring steel. It didnt come out too bad but on the one side it did crack arround the weld. Its not serious and should not make the knife week as the weld was done in a place for cosmetic reasons only.
Another thing, my forge does work a little too well. Stuck the blade in and when i pulled it out, i had a three quarter knife :(. So no the blade is a little shorter than it was supposed to be. Not a great day by the fire, cut myself with a angle grinder and got bit by my dog.
I suppose we all go through a learning curve. I learnt 3 leasons yesterday, watch the heat on the forge, dont weld spring steel and dont stick your arm into a dogfight, just give the bu%^ers a good kick :)
Going to heat treat this afternoon and temper then finnish up tomorrow. Ill get a pic up sometime tomorrow.
7X57chilmau
June 25, 2009, 09:08 AM
Ha! Gotta hate that. I've had more than one knife slightly truncated by over-firing the forge... Always happens on one of the last heats for some reason.
Good to know about the weld. I figured it might happen, but hey, someone had to try it!
I wonder if you've noticed yet just how little air you really need to forge, once the coals are good and mature? Do you have good control over your air volume, or is it an on/off sort of affair?
When I started out 4 years ago, my forge would consume about 15kg of charcoal per knife, in about 6 hours of forgeing. I used alot of blower. After running this way most of the first year, I began to notice that if I used only maybe a quarter of the air I had been using, the fire was more uniformly hot, cleaner and more efficient.... And it was finally a reducing fire. No more flame-cut markings on my blades.... The dagger on my post on Page 1 shows the flame cut markings I mean. Looks like water droplets on the blade.... WAY too much oxygen in that fire!
J
bikerdoc
June 25, 2009, 09:54 AM
Hey my friends, I need more education. Please respond to my post in Knive grinding questions Thread.
thanks,
Doc
hso
June 25, 2009, 02:13 PM
I'm afraid you're going to find you've ruined the blade by leaving it in too hot a forge too long. Both mistakes (http://www.cashenblades.com/Info/Forging.htm) leave the blade steel badly weakened by decarbuization and bad grain growth. What you probably have now is a chunk of metal that won't take or hold an edge and that is subject to breakage.
Everyone risks making these mistakes and ever forge has a pile of junk blades that the smith burned up.
7X57chilmau
June 25, 2009, 02:28 PM
If he cuts back to unburnt steel, it should be OK. Further forgeing should restore the grain structure of anything that wasn't heated past yellow-white heat (anything that wasn't sparking, ie. burning). I assume it wasn't left at too-high a heat for more than a minute or 2...
I've noticed decarburation myself, manifested in a couple ways. First was in my knives.
Before hardening, I put a 90 degree edge on'em with a bench grinder, just to help me make out the profile I want. After HT, I sharpen from there. Takes a while. I've found that the first edge doesn't do that great, but once a blade's been re-sharpened a few times, it does much better. It just takes a while to get beyond the decarburized surface, the outside fractions of a millimeter...
The second time I noticed was when I started making strike-a-lights for flint'n'steel firemaking. A steel is tempered rather harder than a knife, just the palest of yellows on the striking surface. Fresh from the forge's HT, they don't spark well. But if I grind off the surface (gently, no overheat), they do great. Again, it's a few tenths of a millimeter to find the "good" steel.
Man, what a fun hobby....
J
7X57chilmau
June 25, 2009, 03:10 PM
HSO, that was a pretty great link! Very informative.
J
Mokwepa
June 26, 2009, 03:24 AM
Morning guys. More bad news.
I melted the handle off at the back bend. Man im pi$%^d with myself. Didint learn from my first mistake. Im so dissapointed, after all that work i go and trash the handle.:(.
Im left with a coll looking blade with a long thinish tang with a little curl at the end. What do i do now? Toss it? I would like to finish it and thought of putting on a wood handel, not ideal but at least it will still be a knife. This blade has become my experimantal/learning curve blade.
Is there any way to anneal just the tang, to drill holes for brass pins to secure the handle?
Again, MAN, IM DISSAPOINTED.
bikerdoc
June 26, 2009, 07:15 AM
Bummer, Mokwepa
hopefully you can salvage it.
messerist
June 26, 2009, 07:27 AM
I think you can go the same route you did with your first posted knife. Use a hidden tang style. I don't know how thin your tang is however so that would be the deciding factor. Most of my mistakes end up as happy accidents. I'll post one tonight when I get my camera. Bikerdoc I wish I could impart some sage stock removal techniques for you but I use a hand file almost exclusively to remove my metal. Grinders and I don't get along. Good luck:)
Mokwepa
June 26, 2009, 07:46 AM
Started the wooden handel. Making it out of "Black monkey thorn" a local wood. Coming together slowly. Going to take a pic now, should have it up soon.
Got the wood slabs to fit. Just need to shape. Any advice on drilling the tang for pins, without having to anneal the whole blade?
7X57chilmau
June 26, 2009, 08:32 AM
Sounds like your new forge is gettin' the better of ya! LOL. I've had it get away a few times myself, frustrating, but a good lesson.
I like to lift the coals covering the knife so I have "windows" thru which to observe the heat's progress... But still, sometimes.... *sizzle*...
Annealing the tang will require that it be heated red and cooled slowly. IF you wrap the blade and first inch of tang with a wet cloth, and keep the cloth wet, you may be able to cool the rear of the tang slowly enough to anneal it enough to drill.
Place only the tang in the fire, keep the cloth wet without allowing drips to run down the tang (or it may crack on ya), and let the fire die. If you can keep this kosher for 10 minutes-30 minutes, you should be able to get a pin or 2 in....
But if you had to re-harden the blade, that would be no disaster either, eh?
Looks pretty cool, actually...
J
bikerdoc
June 26, 2009, 09:01 AM
I like it.
Took my piece of file out of the ashes this AM. It is still magnetized, drilled fairly easy, but it does not sparkle when I grind it.
Do I have Junk?
hso
June 26, 2009, 09:10 AM
Just anneal the tang with a torch and let it cool in a pile of ashes or just put the tang in your forge and leave the blade out then put the whole thing in a pile of dry ashes to cool.
7X57chilmau
June 26, 2009, 09:28 AM
Biker,
Nope, should be fine. A normally aspirated fire for a few hours cannot decarburize more than a few thou of the surface metal. It takes hours and hours and hours at heats above critical temp to decarburize deeply.
The sparks *should* be similar to what they were before, but perhaps cooler looking, as the softer steel will shed larger, cooler pieces, and fewer will become incandescent.
Get grindin!
J
Mokwepa
June 26, 2009, 09:28 AM
Do you meen, heat tang with torch then place blade in cold ashes untill cool? Is this right?
Mokwepa
June 26, 2009, 10:12 AM
Could i just epoxy the handle on! Would that be strong enough ?
I am so impressed that you folks are doing stuff like this. I certainly don't need a new hobby, but this looks quite compelling.
My wife and I need new wedding rings. How close is the equipment you use for forging steel to what you'd use for precious metals? I'm guessing that's closer to casting bullets than pounding out steel, but I'm amazed that this can be done in the back yard with bricks.
(Posting from where my wife won't see...)
7X57chilmau
June 26, 2009, 11:48 AM
My stepfather's a retired goldsmith, among other things. I've seen him do some basic silversmithing, and his toolset for that is completely different. Very fine work. Mostly I've seen him drawing out and shaping wires using drawplates, soldering, etc. His heat source is generally a small acet/air torch setup. I've not seen him casting ring blanks... Can't offer much more.
Working of precious metals is an altogether more careful and meticulous craft. When he works with a jeweler's saw, he does so over a leather apron which catches the gold dust for re-use. I've only had the chance to watch him work a couple times, and only on small, simple projects, so can only offer so much insight...
But Goldsmithing is to Blacksmithing as Watchmaking is to Engine Rebuilding....
I can tell ya that carbon steel bracelets leave rust stains on wrists, though... :)
J
hso
June 26, 2009, 12:42 PM
Is this right? Yes
Would that be strong enough ? No, but when it comes off you can just go back to putting it on with pins and epoxy.
BTW, That has a nice look to it. Good lines. You have a pretty good eye. Keep trying. Keep reading. Keep learning.
hso
June 26, 2009, 12:44 PM
How close is the equipment you use for forging steel to what you'd use for precious metals?
It is a question of scale.
My 165 lb blacksmith anvil and 8 lb hammer vs a 10 lb jewler's anvil and a 12 oz hammer.
I've worked a little in both jewelery and now in steel. It's target .22s compared to artillery.
Neither are as difficult to do as you think starting out, but neither are trivial.
But Goldsmithing is to Blacksmithing as Watchmaking is to Engine Rebuilding....
Great analogy!
BTW, I know several knifesmiths that started off as jewelers.
Derek Zeanah
June 26, 2009, 12:53 PM
It is a question of scale. My 165 lb anvil vs a 10 lb jewler's anvil.
Lol.
I started a long-winded reply here clarifying myself, then decided this likely wasn't the proper forum.
The thing I've learned here is that there are alternatives to $1,000+ kilns for creating high heat. I've seen lots of contraptions made out of brick, for instance. This also means that books in the local bookstore focusing on using precious metal clay aren't the only way to solve this problem.
Still impressed as hell with what I'm seeing here. I had no idea we had this kind of talent here. :D
7X57chilmau
June 26, 2009, 01:19 PM
And we're the rank amatures! Guys burnin a bit of charcoal behind the shed a few times a year!
We've got some REAL tallent here too, like Valkman, Faud, and so many others... Then over to gunsmithing, with RCModel, Tuner and the others... This place is a great resource!
WRT the expensive, fancy tooling... I've found that in most persuits, the first 98% of perfection is relatively easy. The last 2% costs dearly, with ever deminishing returns.
"Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough". While at first glance, it's an invitation to sloppy work, to me it says something else:
Run whatcha Brung.
J
hso
June 26, 2009, 02:25 PM
J,
I use the 80/20 model.
80% of the time, trouble, skill, cost is in the last 20% of getting it perfect.
7X57chilmau
June 26, 2009, 02:38 PM
:) I can buy that.
6 pages and one new backyard bladesmith one new basement stock remover in the world - so far! This thread makes me happy :)
J
hso
June 26, 2009, 06:15 PM
The day camp my daughter goes to is interested in having one or more of the smiths that put on the ABS Youth Hammer-In spend a day demonstrating and teaching kids what's involved in forging tools and knives.
Perhaps we'll have a couple more new bladesmiths in the world from that.:D
bikerdoc
June 26, 2009, 06:44 PM
Zipidee -do-da,
My little blade is grinding nice and sparcking just lile you said it would J !
Got the basic shape and geometry. Drilled the holes for the scales.
Some more grinding, and then some hand filling, mount the scales and fini.
Maybe some time next week I will be done.
messerist
June 26, 2009, 10:34 PM
Mokwepa looks like you did just fine with your little mishap blade! I said I would post a photo of one of my many redesigns due to failure on my part or the steel's(95% mine). Here is a blade that began life as a skinner but due to a crack that appeared after hardening, turned into a little shorter utility/skinner
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/messerist/shortknife010.jpg
Mokwepa
June 27, 2009, 03:26 AM
Thanks for all the praise and coments. 17 beers down last night so their aint going to be much progress today. In my drunken stuper last night, I did manage to start a fire at 2am and throw the blade in for annealing. Will at least try to drill the holes for the pins, when i can see straight:)
Mokwepa
June 27, 2009, 03:55 AM
Oh yes, I convinced our chef to give forging a go. Built him a wheel forge and pointed him in the right(if i can call it that) direction. He started last night and i got some pics but nothing great. It put some pics of his first attempt when he makes a bit of progress.
BIKERDOC CAN YOU POST SOME PICS OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING?
bikerdoc
June 27, 2009, 08:12 AM
BIKERDOC CAN YOU POST SOME PICS OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING?
Today 02:26 AM
Will try today if the grandkids give me a few minutes:banghead:
hso
June 27, 2009, 09:21 AM
17 beers down last night so their aint going to be much progress today. In my drunken stuper last night, I did manage to start a fire at 2am and throw the blade in for annealing.
Ok, this isn't fatherly advice (cause I ain't your Daddy), but it comes from someone that's been around forging and smiths for years. If you ever stop respecting the dangers inherent in forging it will maim or kill you. I repeat, this is not kids stuff and if you don't treat every aspect of it with respect you will not only ruin hours and hours of work, but you could end up ruined yourself.
Gonna drink? Stay out of the smithy.
Mokwepa
June 27, 2009, 10:50 AM
Coppied loud and clear.
Im not stupid enough to wield a hammer when im in that state.
Going to finish the knife this afternoon. Just a case of straightening, heat treating and tempering then fit the three pins in the tang. Did manage to drill the holes with a bit of effort but its looking good. Ill get a pic of the finished knife soon. Cannot wait to start the next one. Im keen on doing a spear.
Mokwepa
June 28, 2009, 03:21 AM
Finished the blade, ooooh, nice and sharp. I deccided to leave the blade heat treated black. I think it looks very cool with the dark handle(polished it up). Just have to do the final fit of the handle and sand the pins flush with the wood. I had to heat and straighten and heat treat three times to get the blade straight. I was too nervous heating the blade so i thing the first few times, the steel wasnt hot enough(I have a bad habbit of melting the blade just before its finished. Any tips on keeping the blade straight through the treatment? It has been temperd as well.
bikerdoc
June 28, 2009, 10:46 AM
Here it is. Needs lots more work but i am going slow and learning.
Youre making progress. I presume that is the handle material, if so what is it? Looks like bone.
Please keep the pictures comming, im curious to follow and learn from other tecniques.
Finished mine today, ill get a pic up tomorrow. Ive got guests for 5 nights so I wont be able to start the new one untill they leave. Im almost certain that im going to do a bowie style knife. I need to figure out how to do the gaurd out of brass though. Anybody have advice on casting one out of brass?
bikerdoc
June 28, 2009, 03:13 PM
Thanks,
Wood is local maple that I will stain a light maple and seal
Have the leather for a sheath.
Kind of like that I started with a small project, even if by accident.
Final purpose of the knife I have no clue. It is not like I dont own 4 dozen. but It has been fun. However it ends up, I did it! Have along way to go but with my limitations slow and careful thinking is the only way to go.
Doc
hso
June 28, 2009, 07:10 PM
You can sand cast brass if you can heat it hot enough. Carve your model of the guard out of wax and pack sand with some cement around it or ceramic mold material. Be sure to leave an opening through which you can pour the brass into the void. Void? Yes, once you have your mold set up heat the thing until the wax pours out and then pour the molten brass into the mold. You'll end up getting a generally guard-shaped lump of brass once it cools.
Look up brass casting on the net for detailed instructions.
As to going for a "bowie", don't. You haven't mastered basic technique yet so there's no point jumping to the next level in size. When you've worked out all the problems with 4 or 5 inch blades is when you jump up to 9 or 10 inch blades, not while you're still trying to figure out how to not burn up your blade.
Ok here it is. Finaly done. The mark on the blade is basically a brand mark from a huge male lion that i knew very well. The Bartia male died last year while doing battle with a buffalo at the ripe old age of 15 (very old for a male lion). He did kill the buffalo but died in the process. Quite a honorable death for such a magnificent lion.
Im sure i could manage a crude bowie. It might be large but ill give it a try. Im not expecting to turn out a masterpiece and if i skrew it up, ill make another. Appart from time, this is probably the cheapest hobby i have. I do have the time to use/waste, im stuck in the middle of the bush for a month at a time.
Silverado6x6
June 29, 2009, 09:07 AM
Mokwepa I have some real respect for what you have done, I am a firm believer that there is on occasions a spiritual bond or spark created when man works with steel. I can handle high end tools like an artist such as operating a milling machine, I can fabricate copies of objects like motor mounts and other items that cross my path in my line of work as a concrete batch plant engineer.
Where I live in Alaska I often have to make my own parts, transplant engines to get the most out of old equipment and basically turn junkyard scrap into working equipment.
Don't ever feel like what you do is substandard, cheap or something that is of amateur quality, thats not what its all about, where I live in the USA its quite common for the idle rich to go out and spend tons of money on bling, like buying a Hummer and then bolting everything they can find on it and then they never use it as it was designed, all its good for is bragging rights.
About 10 years ago I designed high powered LED flashlights, much of my ideas were immediately copied by Chinese contractors and massed produced and flooded the market, I could not compete against that, but what I do nowadays is totally different, I create one-off projects only, always changing and never replicated and so far I have yet to see copycatters. I drive a truck with such unique lighting systems on it I routinely get asked by people where they can buy it, I tell them what was involved and their eyes get all glassy looking when on one such project I told them I cannibalized an LED advertising sign and built it into an extremely bright linear progressive turn signal, running/brake multifunction tail light. By the time I tallied the cost of reworking the tailgate, the lexan, the paint and hours of fitting they just give in and accept that they have no artistic creative talent.
That is what you have right now, that is your spirit so to say extending into your work, keep it up and keep us informed please. This morning I am going to work early I recall I have these huge chunks of worn out material we use inside the huge concrete mixing machine, they look like ploughs but are really hard wearing, I am thinking of making an anvil out of one.
I also have cast off grader blades, loader bucket steel and lots of hard surface metal dies that are used in our concrete block making plant.
I am looking forward to making my own forge and getting into this as well, here in Alaska big knives are actually needed, tough knives to skin moose.
Silverado6x6
June 29, 2009, 09:17 AM
I am passing on this article because I am going to build this, I have absolutely everything needed already lying around at my shop, we use pneumatic cylinders a lot and I have various controls, I may have to buy a footswitch though. I see nothing wrong with using a hammer and anvil but I do not have an anvil, I do have something I can build that would simulate it.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f57/home-made-air-hammer-944/
Contact Ron Claiborn at 2928 Ellistown Rd, Knoxville, tn, 37924 and I bet he'd be happy to share plans for forging presses and power hammers with you. Ron builds some nice equipment, but you're far enough away that he'd probably just work with you to get what you want.
Mokwepa
June 29, 2009, 02:45 PM
Silverado, looks good. Wish i had access to cool machinery and parts. Hammer will have to do for now. Keep us posted with what youre up to and what you end up making in the knife department.
Going to do some research on basic damuscas, think its going to be too involved for my hammer.
theotherwaldo
June 29, 2009, 02:59 PM
Hey, don't worry about competing with the pros. Don't get hung up on all the equipment.
Just keep taking what you have and making what you want.
Just keep learning.
7X57chilmau
June 29, 2009, 08:37 PM
Mokwepa! Looks great! I'm on vacation this week, this is the first (maybe last) time I've had to sit at a computer since Friday... But that knife actually came out really nice looking.
Bikerdoc, yours is comin' along too! The point has a real SAK shape to it, eh? Should be a nice little user.
Hso, I hope your hammerin' camps do produce a few. One day, we'd be a sorry bunch if these basic techniques were lost.
I try to get friends out to my forge all the time. Have limited success, even with offers of "we can make a knife in one day, any way you like, and you can keep it". The few that do come out get a little speach on the rules. All odd numbered rules are the same. "Sometimes, black steel is hot too." They look funny at me after the third time.
Usually, it's about 3 hours later when they pick something up and smoke curls from their leather gloves..... Then they understand. :)
J
hso
June 29, 2009, 11:38 PM
We had a group of Boy Scouts from Oak Ridge show up at the Youth Hammer-In to look. I got tagged to talk to them and being the safety geek I asked what temp do the smiths work the steel at and got a quick answer from a couple. I then asked what temp the steel turned red and got a couple of answers. I then set the hook and asked what temp will burn you and one answered correctly. "So you can get burned well below the temperature that you can see the steel is hot, correct?" You could almost see the "ah-hah" light bulbs above their heads. No one is stupid enough to grab red steel but plenty of folks will grab gray/black steel and leave lovely grill marks on their paws.
The most prominent piece of first aid equipment I insist on at these things is a 5 gallon bucket filled with ice and water. Any time any kid gets the least little bit of heat they plunge the wounded part in the bucket and keep it there until they can't feel the burn any more. We had 4 kids in the bucket this year, but not a one blistered.
Silverado6x6
June 30, 2009, 12:31 AM
I have to fabricate a lot of equipment from scrap up here in Alaska being that it costs too much to have something shipped up here and on almost every occasion when I have some project that required a lot of heat from torching or welding there is always one of the employees or usually one of the two owners walk right into my shop and pick the darn thing up! A person could get rich to make a handy thermo sensitive indicator like a warning magnet that flashes when heat is detected.
Anyway I am not trying to hijack a thread here but I got to tinkering around at 6am this morning at work, I grabbed an old but new very large Timken roller bearing race and took it outside to my big traveling carbide cutoff saw we use for rebar and heavy iron and sliced it in half, I think it went to an older style rear axle of a concrete mixer, so I then got it orange and with one end in the vice and the other in a pipe wrench I slowly straightened it, of course it curved.
No biggee, I think, I'll just get it hot again and start whackin away with my short handled small shop sledge, turns out this steel may be 52100, its like 62 Rockwell, duh! My newest file barely scratches it. ITS A BEARING RACE! It does NOT like to be beaten on and fights every hammer blow, I was keeping the heat low because I'm no dummy and I have broken bearing races because they are brittle but I was thinking what an awesome edge it would have after I normalized it straight, had to clarify what normalizing 52100 involved, its rather finicky and needs a three step process with consecutive lower heats, minimal heats in between.
Makes me drool for that laser handheld pyrometer at out hardware store, so just a couple of hours ago I posted all this on a knife making forum, the regs say this steel is NOT for a beginner, too hard to work with, thats OK with me but after many pages of browsing I find that this very steel is highly sought after as long as it real 52100, apparently some races don't have enough in it, I think a large industrial Timken bearing should have the right steel so I have a straight piece now thats about 1 1/2" wide and about 10" long, its thicker on one side, its a roller bearing race of course, thats not bad I think as this will make a nice strong heavy survival type of knife, I wish I could make it a bit longer for the tang, next time I will only cut another race once. I may just weld a piece of mild steel flat stock to it and have that in the handle, I have some incredibly strong welding rod and as long as I make a zig-zag weld it should be strong I guess.
I absolutely need an anvil for this, I have my eye on some stuff in the yard that should work, they look like chunky plows, they were inside a concrete mixing machine. I have a 4 1/2" Hitachi hand grinder and tons of discs for it plus my little 4" Makita I usually keep 24 grit sanding discs on, I also have a small 1" belt sander but its kinda wore out, tomorrow I'm shopping for a 2x42 at Sears.
Mokwepa
June 30, 2009, 12:50 AM
I may just weld a piece of mild steel flat stock to it and have that in the handle, I have some incredibly strong welding rod and as long as I make a zig-zag weld it should be strong I guess.
Be very carefull welding on the tang. Even though you might have strong rods, you are still going to have to heat up good and proper for heat treatment. The different steel densities are going to expand and contract at different rates and more than likely crack. The welds on tough steel tend to crack next to the weld and not on the weld. Im far from an expert but even a spot weld on my last knife went bad on me. Make a shorter, one piece for now, at least you will know its solid and strong right through from tip to butt cap.
Silverado6x6
June 30, 2009, 01:06 AM
What time is it there? Its 8:04PM here, I agree about that and I think this one will just be a shorty, I do have a whole shelf of obsolete heavy equipment races to cut and roll flat. What do you think of using this steel?
messerist
June 30, 2009, 07:02 AM
I've used bearing races for knives. Forged very hard but made some good blades. I think it is the same steel as bearings are made of, 52100
hso
June 30, 2009, 11:38 AM
Makes me drool for that laser handheld pyrometer at out hardware store
Most hardware store non-contact pyrometers won't have the upper range you need (OTOH a hardware store in AK may have goodies you typically wouldn't find in the lower 48). They typically only go up to around 500 degrees Fahrenheit. No where near the 1400 you need for forging temperatures. Using a magnet to determine if the critical temperature has been reached is a standard practice with blade smiths. Some can use the emitted color of the steel to tell, but that's a skill that is beyond my ability.
I got this handy color/temp graphic from this nice little website - http://www.navaching.com/forge/heat.html
http://www.navaching.com/forge/forge.gifs/tempcolor2.jpg
Bearing steel has been used to make excellent blades. They do tend to be complex in the heat treat though.
It is never a good idea to weld steel together for the finished blade or tang. Smiths will often weld an extension onto bar stock to make it easier to handle in the forging process, but they're intent isn't to incorporate that welded section into the knife. Some old production methods did use a chevron weld to attach a piece of mild steel to carbon steel in an attempt to economize. The weld was a couple of inches up in the tang and looked like a "V". The first rivet usually was in the part of the tang that was the blade steel and the second rivet went in the mild steel welded onto the blade steel. Like our friend from SA has seen, the welds tend to crack.
7X57chilmau
June 30, 2009, 02:03 PM
It's no real trouble to weld simple high and low carbon steels, but when you get into complex alloy steels like 5160, 51200, some of the alloying elements really mess with the welds. I'd avoid trying to weld them at all costs. They are, for our intents, pretty much weld-proof. If the weld does stick, they'll fail in the heat affected zone. They behave strangely.
I've not tried to work 51200, but most of my knives are made from 5160 spring steel. This is pretty much what you'll find in the average leaf or coil automotive spring, a near endless source of material. While it benefits from an elaborate HT regime, not unlike 51200, it does respond quite reasonably to old-school heat-quench-temper too. I've found the finished blade to be quite tough, compared to similar 1085 blades, but slightly softer if I temper them the same. Their extra toughness allows me to leave the temper a shade or 2 cooler, to achieve a similar result to a plain carbon blade.
Some bearing races are also made from 440 class stainless steels. If your old bearings aren't frosted with rust, they may be stainless.
Mokwepa, you asked a few posts ago about getting a blade to stay straight thru the quench. That's one I've fought since the beginning too. Here's what I've found....
First, make sure the blade is held for quenching with the spine up, edge down, and move it around in the quench fluid in an up and down direction. Side to side would cool one side faster than the other. That's a warp!
When I first made blades, I'd forge'em to shape, and on the last heat, I'd tap them about, trying to straighten them. Then I'd heat and quench. Half the time, they'd warp.
Now, after I spend that heat straightening them, I re-heat them and recheck them for straight. Sometimes they'll shift a bit. Very little work done in this heat. Repeat a couple more times, working out any last bends, but do not try to cause any shape change in the final heats, especially as it cools below red heat. Then, do the hardening heat, quench and check... Chances are, there was much less warping this time. I think these last 2, 3 or 4 heats is basically similar to a normalization. When we straighten on the last heat, we risk leaving distortions in the steel's structure, and the next heat/quench lets those distortions pull the blade about.
That's the sense I can make of it, anyway.
HSO: Ice bucket. Will remember that, next time some newbies are about....
J
7X57chilmau
June 30, 2009, 02:05 PM
Mokwepa,
Yup, my least expensive hobby too... I've been at it 4 years now, I'd guess I have yet to spend $1000, including fuel costs.... Equipment's likely in the $400 range...
J
Mokwepa
June 30, 2009, 03:19 PM
Mokwepa, you asked a few posts ago about getting a blade to stay straight thru the quench. That's one I've fought since the beginning too. Here's what I've found....
Thanks for the info. Ive had it wrong. I final shaped, then heated cherry hot and dunked vertical into oil, and pulled out a cork skrew:) Im glad you can quench horizontal, i battled to find a container tall enough to hold enough oil. On my next knife (a bowie, im going to at least try it) ill do as you say and hopefully get it straight first time.
HSO, Thanks very much for that colour(SA spelling :)) graph, itll help me understand a bit more about what im doing. Thanks again.
Two more nights of driving guests then its bang,bang on the spring steel.
Mokwepa
June 30, 2009, 03:21 PM
Oh yes, Hope i never see that bright yellow colour again.
Mokwepa
June 30, 2009, 03:24 PM
weld to attach a piece of mild steel to carbon steel in an attempt to economize
These guys must have been cheap. How much extra would 3-4" of good steel cost, probably less than the welding rods used :)
hso
June 30, 2009, 03:36 PM
Mokwepa,
I was referring to the old days when knives were in huge demand and had to be forged back when cutlery steel was expensive compared to mild steel. I think 1800s time frame. I think it was done in the latter "mass production" days of Sheffield, but don't quote me on that.
Mokwepa
June 30, 2009, 04:29 PM
I think it was done in the latter "mass production" days of Sheffield, but don't quote me on that.
Interesting. Makes sense on mased produced knives but sucrificing quality and reputation in the process.
HSO, sounds like you've been smithing for a while, do you teach and offer courses(i read the PM and assume that you do, thanks for the advice. I will be carefull. I recently learnt how valuble your eyes are, got a steel splinter infront of my pupil from grinding. I get payed to look for animals and my eyes pay the bills. Since then, even my ray bans have pit marks, i always keep my eyes coverd now) Ive checked on your profile but doesnt say any thing. Have or do you sell your knives? Hopefully one day ill be able to sell mine, if i ever get that good. It must be hard parting with the first one, even my "disaster" knives meen allot to me cause i made them, and it took time and a fair amount of brain power :)
hso
June 30, 2009, 04:47 PM
The best I can say is that I'm a student of forging and I've been around it for years. I've forged a dozen or so blades, but nothing to get excited about.
The real heat and beat crowd here includes Fuad Acawi (http://acremetalworks.com/) and Stephen Fowler (http://fowlerblades.com/). Occasionally Larry Harley (http://www.lonesomepineknives.com/index.asp) shows up.
Silverado6x6
July 1, 2009, 07:11 AM
I am on my kids computer, mine died last night so I'm off to town here in a little bit to buy a new one, I don't know if it was a hard drive failure or what but it did have Windows XP which I liked, I have no choice now but to buy one with Vista, I won't ever buy a high dollar puter, did that years ago, then 6 months later its obsolete, I'll buy one on average every 3-4 years, my last one was a really decent HP that I loaded up with max memory and a 22" LCD monitor.
There was an Ebay auction last night, I missed the final bid cause puter screwed up but there was a guy selling homemade damascus blades at some really decent prices, I think he was basically selling other club members knives, they did not look cheap.
messerist
July 1, 2009, 09:48 AM
Mokwepa. I've been forging blades for 15 years and like 7X57chilmau I always quench horizontally. I guess the most important thing to remember when working your steel is to maintain even hammer strokes on both sides of the blade. It balances out the stress your putting on the steel and makes your process straighter. Another thing to get in the habit of is to normalize your steel after forging. You heat it to the non-magnetic stage then take the blade out and allow to cool in the air to where you can touch it. Do this three times before you put the blade in your annealing medium after a final heat. Now this is going to sound sorta voodoo-ish but I have heard from several blacksmiths and blade makers that the magnetic orientation of your blade has something to do with warpage. You need to make sure that your blade is in relatively close alignment with magnetic north or during the rapid cool down during the quench the blade will slightly warp toward magnetic north. True or not? Maybe some other members have heard of this occurring. Since you are in the southern hemisphere I would have no idea how strong the magnetic pull would be. Sounds crazy eh? But one feller swore by it. I'm not convinced of this phenomenon and do not worry about my blades magnetic orientation while quenching, but then I have never had alot of warpage issues either. I'll stick to even hammer strokes and normalizing....but then now that I think of it, my quench tank is oriented north-south.....naaaaw! Good luck to you:).
AppalachianMtnMan
July 1, 2009, 01:07 PM
Hey guys just found the forum and would like to say I love it. I've been working in a forge with my dad since I was a lil guy, making anything needed. Plows, chisels, tools, and of course knives and even a few swords. Just waned to add some pics of our last knife, and our shop set up. Hopefully I can learn a lot here, and also help out now and then.
Nice knife. Wish i could get hold of some railway spikes.
HSO, I was sitting watching some lions this afternoon when i rememberd that i have a old motorbike chain. Now, if i roll it up and tack weld it just to stay rolled up, then weld a length of rod to hold on to, and finally heat it red hot and beat it sensless into a flat bar then remove the rod..........do you think it will work?
What does fluxing entail and is this esential for creating simple chain damuscas?
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 03:05 PM
MTNMAN, welcome.
What furnace setup are you using?
I got an old vacuum cleaner today to replace the hair dryer.
AppalachianMtnMan
July 1, 2009, 03:10 PM
My dad built our forge in the late 70's. The firepot is an old hub out of some mining equipment, and the rest is just welded flat steel, with concrete poured in. We always burn coke for the best heat, and use a a shop vac plugged into an outlet controlled by a dimmer style switch so we can vary the speed and amount of air. We also have an old hand cranked blower on stand by if the power goes out.
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 03:17 PM
Sounds good.
Have you got any experiance in making basic damuscas blanks?
AppalachianMtnMan
July 1, 2009, 03:24 PM
I do not. Sorry I can't be of any help there. There are some good videos on you tube about it though. I've never done a damuscas knife, but I would like to some day. Heres a slightly better pic of our forge setup, and I have some video loading on youtube of our knife making if your intrested. http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee356/tnplowboy07/leavedec17th-jan6th011.jpg
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 03:32 PM
Most definately. Quite a set up. Im still using vice grips to hold my steel. I need to get some decent b/smith pliers but cannot afford new ones at the moment. Im going to try get some from a local farming depot for cheaper.
When you get the vid up send us a link.
AppalachianMtnMan
July 1, 2009, 03:37 PM
All of the tongs you see hanging there are handmade, with the exception of two pairs, one of which is a nail mold, the other is a .45 cal. round ball mold. As are the dippers and the shovel in the back ground and almost everything else we use for forging.
HoosierQ
July 1, 2009, 03:38 PM
The whole north south thing is interesting. There will be "measurable" differences in the metal due to its alignment at cooling...measurable in the sense of using some sort of instrument...not necessarily by eye. The orientation of molecules of a hot material cooling down followed the magnetic field of the earth...doesn't have to be iron.
And you'd want to align the thing with a compass...magnetic north...rather than true north.
The hemisphere your'e in wouldn't matter unless you took this rather interesting hypothesis even farther and aligned the molecules not only lengthwise but pointing at the tip or the tang. On earth, North is positive and South is negative. So to align the molecules the same in both hemispheres, you'd face the same direction.
I cannot imagine that this would matter at all but it is interesting to ponder.
This is a really great thread. I am only sorry I cannot add anything to it.
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 03:49 PM
HoosierQ, why do you say that you cannot add, are you not a knife maker? If not you should start :)
hso
July 1, 2009, 03:56 PM
do you think it will work?
What does fluxing entail and is this esential for creating simple chain damuscas?
Yes and Yes (but there's no such thing as "simple" chain damascus)
Without flux you will not get the chain to forge weld because of oxide formation. There's a lot of void space with chain and it is horrible material to try to work with. It is most certainly not a beginner's material and has little merit except the novelty. If you have some powdered nickle or nickel steel you can use that to help fill voids and enhance the pattern.
Clean the chain thoroughly of any dirt or rust or gunk or grease before tacking it together. You can use powdered borax laundry soap if you cant find welder's flux. Flux it heavily while you fold up the chain. Flux it again. Wrap it in steel wire as tight as possible. Tack weld it. Flux it some more. (notice I keep repeating "flux"?) Weld on your handle.
Heat it to orange and flux. Heat and beat just enough to make it stick together. Heat and draw out on the anvil. Flux. Sprinkle more high nickel powder, Heat, Flux, Fold, Beat. Repeat. You're trying to work a horribly inhomogeneous material into a homogeneous billet.
I heard the most accurate description of how to use motorcycle chain to make damascus, Put the chain on your bike and go get some steel to forge.
You're much much better off looking for leaf springs from trucks and mining equipment to work with. You're much better off scrounging some nickle steel to put between your spring steel to make pattern welded steel (damascus). But the best thing for you to do is avoid trying to make damascus until you can consistently forge tool/spring steel into blades without any problems. Then dive into damascus.
hso
July 1, 2009, 03:57 PM
Quite a set up. Im still using vice grips to hold my steel. I need to get some decent b/smith pliers
Weld an extension onto your vice grips. That's what a lot of guys do starting out.
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 04:12 PM
I heard the most accurate description of how to use motorcycle chain to make damascus, Put the chain on your bike and go get some steel to forge.
LOL, Classic.
Im a bike rider and your idea sonds good. Going to stick to leaf springs for now. How does leaf spring steel compare to bought stuff? Is leaf spring considerd fairly good stuff for knife making? It seems to hold an edge.
Mokwepa
July 1, 2009, 04:15 PM
Weld an extension onto your vice grips
Have you by any chance got a pic? I cannot picture how you would extend the handles without interfearing with the locking mechanism.
Got to go home now, doing a day drive(7 hrs), must find buffalo and leopard.
Thanks for all the advice.
HoosierQ
July 1, 2009, 04:26 PM
Mokwepa
Very kind of you to ask. I have put handles on existing blades and that is the extent of my experience.
Here is my most recent. The blade is my grandfather's butcher knife that he used his entire life. Used an antler and pinned in the blade.
So I can put a handle on 'em but I have never made a real blade from real steel.
hso
July 1, 2009, 04:46 PM
I cannot picture how you would extend the handles without interfearing with the locking mechanism.
I'll try to get a picture from one of the local smiths, but they tack onto the outside of the handle that doesn't have the adjustment screw.
bikerdoc
July 1, 2009, 10:48 PM
AppalachianMtnMan,
Welcome to THR!
HoosierQ, Nice handle work
To all, I will be lurking and posting but the Doc has put my gringing to a halt due to increased nunbness in my hands and arms and posibly damage to my C5. :cuss:
But I am still a Knife guy:D
Valkman
July 1, 2009, 11:50 PM
Is leaf spring considerd fairly good stuff for knife making? It seems to hold an edge.
Yes it is - it's good carbon steel.
AppalachianMtnMan
July 1, 2009, 11:55 PM
Heres the video I said I would add. Its not much, we did all the shaping with the 10 pound hammer laying at the anvil base, we were in the clean up and final shaping stage by this time. Doing the beating is my Dad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmVVm27hclc
hso
July 2, 2009, 03:26 AM
Careful about leaf springs, the conversations with experienced makers I've participated in view springs from equipment made before 1980 as being superior to those after. The discussions center around the quantity/quality of scrap used in the manufacture of steel after that time and the resultant quality of the leaf springs. The rule of thumb is that higher end euro vehicle springs or pre '75 springs were preferable because they would be hight quality 5160. Mercedes and Volvo being especially preferred.
maskedman504
July 2, 2009, 03:31 AM
Although I said this on the second page of this thread:
This thread is brimming with information for anyone with a desire to enter into knife making. No opinionated B.S., no attitudes, no anecdotal evidence. One of the best threads I have ever read on THR. Thank you to those are are forging (literally) the way.
Got started on my bowie yesterday. Didint have too much time but did get the basic beating done. My guests leave today so ive got the next week to work on it. The counterbend tecnique works like a charm. I didnt counterbend the end 2" so that it would curve at the tip. I do find im working quicker and getting the hang of beating consistently. My new/old vacuum works great, 3 speed settings and doesnt overheat the steel on the lowest. Ill keep posting over the next few days the progress of the bowie.
messerist
July 3, 2009, 11:20 PM
Looking good! I'm gonna do some forging tomorrow if the weather holds:)
Mokwepa
July 4, 2009, 03:50 AM
Made some progress yesterday. Profiled the blade. Ill get a pic up today if i can. Have andy of you casted a bolster/gaurd out of brass, how did it turn out and how did you do it?
You're going to need to even the edge out. That curve in the middle is going to make grinding a real pain.
Heat it and whack it on the rail/anvil. Literally, just use the flat surface of the anvil to whack the whole length of the blade spine to flatten it just like you were chopping the anvil in half with the spine. That will push that hump toward the cutting edge and even it out.
Mokwepa
July 4, 2009, 10:58 AM
Nope....I like that curved look. You are right, it will be a pain grinding the sharp edge but im going to anneal and file it by hand, only on the sharp edge. Im going to leave the forged look on the side of the blade (i love that forged look).
Made a mold for my gaurd. Shaped wax, then made a plaster mould and melted the wax out. Dont know if it will handle the heat but you'll find out tomorrow :)
Thanks fpr the reply HSO. Have a good weekend.
PS. Our chef finished his knife, ill get a pic soon.
hso
July 4, 2009, 01:19 PM
Mokwepa,
If you like the recurve edge, then it's easy to leave in, but that humpback spine is just that easy to take out.
Of course you might like that too, or you could just grind it flat.
Good to hear the vacuum cleaner blower is working well for you.
Your plaster mold needs to be dry, dry, dry before the brass goes in or it might not just crack, but explode. Be sure to pack sand around it in a pot so that if it does crack it will have less potential to loose any brass.
Mokwepa
July 5, 2009, 03:17 AM
Thanks HSO.
I got the brass to melt but it seems too holt for a cold plaster mould. When i poured it into the mould it agitates and leaves ripples and bubbles in the brass. I know from casting bullets for my BP rifle, you only get good clean bullets when the mould is hot and the fluid can cool slowly. Any way, i tried. Think im going to do a steel gaurd (same as on the Primitive Fighter), but different shape. I was looking at my CS Black Bear last night and thought of doing a second finger quillion (dont know the correct name). The wood ive got for the handle is Rhodiasian Teak. Its a nice deap redish colour.
Do you think i should do the second quillion?
hso
July 5, 2009, 08:51 AM
If your mold held up and your only problem was bubbles in the brass give it another go with the mold hot.
On the other hand, if you have enough brass to melt and pour you could just shape it.
Subhilt is the term used. They're a matter of taste and mostly decorative. They're also usually too large since many times they're made to match the guard on the knife instead of the hand of the user.
Mokwepa
July 5, 2009, 10:12 AM
Thanks HSO.
One more question for today. I dont realy have enough motor oil for treatment of this knife but ive got a ton of "sunflower cooking oil", can i use it for heat treatment?
theotherwaldo
July 5, 2009, 02:33 PM
Mokwepa: Try using clay instead of plaster for your brass mold. Dry it, bake it in the same place that you melt your bronze, then pour the bronze in the hot mold.
-That's the way it's been done for thousands of years!
Plaster just breaks down from the heat, emitting lots of CO2 in the process and making your brass all foamy.
messerist
July 5, 2009, 06:15 PM
I've used canola oil for years. Been working so far on 5160 and old files. I bet that sunflower oil is in the same catagory. Good luck!:)
hso
July 5, 2009, 08:53 PM
People have been using all sorts of quenching fluids from vegetable oils to "used" motor/transmission oils to specific metallurgical quenching fluids. Then theres water and salt solutions.
The sunflower oil should work just like the canola oil messerist uses. Try heating it to about 120 F before using it to quench. If you get a piece of 4" pipe that you can weld up and stand vertically you can vertically quench in it. If you use iron pipe you can heat your oil before the quench.
Mokwepa
July 6, 2009, 07:58 AM
I drilled out the one piece handle and the handle almost goes right over the tang, but just doesnt. Can i heat up the tang and burn it into the handle for a perfect fit like i did with the waterbuck horn on the primitive fighter?
7X57chilmau
July 6, 2009, 10:18 AM
Back from vacation! Fog never cleared, so missed out on the stepfather's new blunderbuss.... Bummer...
Your bowie looks good, Mok!
I use a galvanized steel wash tub for my quench tank. Allows quenching of works up to about 18" long, in used motor oil.... Seems to do the job.
J
hso
July 6, 2009, 11:00 AM
handle almost goes right over the tang, but just doesnt.
show us first
Is your tang forged down to a rat tail or is it still full width and thickness. If full width you should just cut the antler in half lengthways and pin the scales on with some epoxy in the middle. If you have a stick tang then you should just heat dull red hot and burn it in.
Mokwepa
July 6, 2009, 11:15 AM
Ill get a pic up tomorrow. Battery is flat. Im basically using a one piece blank of teak. I stood it verticle under the drill press and drilled three holes the length of the tang. Then cleaned/joined up the holls with a file. What a anoying tedious job. I did get it to fit in the end, slightly loose but going to use epoxy filler and then pin it once the blade is done and handle shaped.
I drilled holes through the gaurd and now need to create a rectangular slot for the tang, even a bigger pain. The gaurd is 6mm leaf spring that has been anneald. It drills easily but is to small to fit a decent file in :( . Ill do what my dad says, ill worry it out.
My tang is basically a rectangle 80x15x6mm and is not taperd. Wanted to keep it fairly bulky and strong.
hso
July 6, 2009, 01:43 PM
rectangle 80x15x6mm
Then you want to cut the wood into two halves and either flat epoxy and pin it on or you want to cut it in half and router/gouge a channel down the middle that you epoxy and pin.
You've taken the hard route and will have tons of trouble getting a good fit (unless you make a reduced tang).
Mokwepa
July 7, 2009, 03:10 AM
My goodness you are right. Got the handle to fit with allot of effort. Shaped the handle last night and did the basic sharpening of the blade. Just need to shape the slot in the gaurd for the tang, more hard work:) Its looking good. Definately my best work yet, but i supose it aint over untill its over.
bikerdoc
July 7, 2009, 05:03 AM
Still lurking and learning. Feeling a bit better, going slow and with careful thinking. By wearing a brace on my arm,, vise grips, clamps and gloves have started to grind again about an hour a day.
Keep educating me guys!
7X57chilmau
July 7, 2009, 09:12 AM
Doc, glad you're feeling better..... All the repetative motions required for stock removal on a knife blade could be hell on an aging hand.... I know mine (not yet aged, early 30's) require frequent shake-out even when sharpening a new blade... Any fine work tends to cramp'em up.
Here's a tip for ya, Doc, though it involves using power tools for stock removal: Alot of us enjoy hollow ground blades, but most think this to be beyond the tooling of the average joe. It's not.
You can hollow grind a blade with a hand-held angle grinder. Here's how I do it. First, have the outline of the blade more or less finalized. I often use a bench grinder for this. Just shaping the spine and profile of the edge. I use the bench grinder to put a 45 degree per side edge on the knife. This gives me a guide so I can visually see how much edge thickness is left as I grind the hollows...
Now I C-clamp the knife by the tang to a piece of angle iron that I can chuck in a bench or post vice. I try to set the knife at about mid-belly level, point towards my belly. The point is over the angle iron, making things safer.
I get the angle grinder and install a heavily glazed surface grinding wheel on it. Badly glazed wheels cut slowly and leave a relatively smooth surface compared to a fresh wheel. You can cause a wheel to become heavily glazed by surface grinding a piece of steel with excessive feed pressure, and allowing the work to become very hot. The glazed wheel will look like many of the spaces between the grains have been filled in. I like to ensure that it has no sharp corners on the grinding surfaces too, as I prepare the wheel.
Now brace the back of the angle grinder in your lower chest, with the wheel at an angle to the face to be ground. The higher the back of the grinder is held, the deeper the hollow grind will result. Bracing the grinder allows you to maintain maximum control. Move your whole body to move the wheel, keeping angles consistant. Grind first one side, then the other. Try to make'em match. Try to end the hollow grind in a pleasing way.
Finish with filing/sanding by hand, of course.
I use a 4.5" machine for my hollow-grinding needs. Smaller wheels would produce a deeper hollow.
Far as I can see any idea is a good idea. Make the knife the way you want and learn from it. I would bet if you make a knife and its the hard way you will figure out a different method for the next one and so on untill you have a system that works for you. I tend to read a lot before I start any project.
Mokwepa
July 7, 2009, 11:03 AM
Ive read that some guys silver solder the blade to the gaurd to hide the join. Can some one explain how this is done? Does it not mess up the tempering and heat treatment, i presume this is done after heat treatment?
Could i not treat and finish the knife, then carefully heat the join and dab a bit of regular solder in there to fill the space? Will it stick and close the slightly rough join?
7X57chilmau
July 7, 2009, 11:30 AM
Solder, be it silver or plain old lead/tin, will fill a joint. Both will stick to steel, provided the steel is VERY clean and VERY well fluxed.
The heat would be applied to the tang/guard, and the blade clamped in a vice as a heat sink. Lead solder works at quite low temperatures, and little effect on the HT would result from proper lead soldering. Using higher temp solders (silver) would result in some softening in the immediate area of the guard, but this typically is not an area where full hardness is required.... I generally temper my tangs and blade spines (especially near the guard) at about 550F, blue/purple. Any solder that melts below this point could be used without softening the area significantly.
This would be a good application for a good hot torch, so the joint can be accomplished before the heat travels far into the blade.
Lead solder will darken to a very dull grey in time. Silver solder will stay bright unless it is tarnished. So will leadless plumbing solders stay bright, to a degree.
Do make the joint fit as well as possible. Solder joints are weak if the solder layer is thick. Thinner is stronger (just like any glue joint).
Use more flux than you think you'll need. Heat the joint, not the solder.
J
7X57chilmau
July 7, 2009, 11:31 AM
You can close a joint up by forging the hot guard onto a cold tang too.... Or by making the hole in the guard undersize, and driving the tang thru it to get the final fit....
J
Mokwepa
July 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
Thanks 7x57
Thats exactly what i wanted to know.
This forum is truly great and has greatly enhanced my ability to further my hobies. Thanks to all that keep my new found hobby alive.
You can close a joint up by forging the hot guard onto a cold tang too.... Or by making the hole in the guard undersize, and driving the tang thru it to get the final fit....
Im sure ive asked before but cannot remember, I tried this before and the gaurd stuck solid to the blade(primitive fighter). Wedging the red hot gaurd to the blade, will this not effect HT or would i do this first and then HT the gaurd and blade in one shot?
Is it OK the straighten a very slightly bent tang when the blade is cold if it has been properly anneald?
Once again, thanks for the help.
Im off home so will chat tomorrow, want to do the pinning and HT tomorrow if i can. Decided to only put a pic up when im finished, man, im even surprizing my self with this blade, Im very very pleased so far.
7X57chilmau
July 7, 2009, 01:15 PM
If I were "forge fitting" the guard to the tang, I'd plan to HT the blade afterwards. If the tang were tapered a bit, the guard could still be removed after fitting.
I've straightened tangs on knives after HT by heating with a propane torch and tapping back to straight. Only if the bend is more than about 1/4 of the tang's lenght back from the blade. Hardness is not terribly relevant in the back portion of the tang. In fact, most knife makers leave the tang dead soft - the tang is the last place one wants a brittle fracture.
J
Mokwepa
July 8, 2009, 03:41 AM
Makes sense.
I plan on doing the same with the bowie. Dont want it to break. How should i temper the blade(colour)? I want a good edge but i plan on using this one so it'll have to be durable. I thought yellow on the cutting edge, brown on the tip and temper through to normal colour on the tang, does this sound right? Going to HT this afternoon then assemble tomorrow.
7X57chilmau
July 8, 2009, 08:37 AM
Yeah, I'd probably go for somewhere between straw and full yellow for the edge (with the lightest yellow in the "belly", the curve to the tip where most cutting is done, while trying to get the spine and tip to at least a brown, and the tang to blue at least.... Feel free to cook the rear of the tang to full soft.....
That's pretty close to how I try to temper most of my larger blades.... I've used my dagger for splitting 2x4's and stabbing malicious car doors.... It's hard enough to keep a "fighting" edge and tough enough not to chip out when twisted while embedded in sheet metal....
J
Mokwepa
July 8, 2009, 09:02 AM
stabbing malicious car doors
Ilike it allot:)
Dont know what im going to do with mine, just this morning, me and one of my guides had to slice and dice a dead wildebeest to encourage the scavengers to come clean it up. Would have been fun if the bowie was done.
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 03:06 AM
Yey, the final day:)
Almost done with the Bowie. I will definately have a pic of the finished knife by the end of today.
messerist
July 9, 2009, 06:59 AM
I can't believe how lazy scavengers are becoming. When I was stationed in California a very large basking shark had washed up on the beach. It laid there for days with an occasional seagull poking at its mass. Well finally the residents of Carmel started complaining about the pleasant odor wafting up from the shark so they brought in a demolitions company and they blew the shark up! After the sand had settled you couldn't see the beach for all the seagulls and other scavengers feasting! They just needed someone to come in and cut up their steak for them. Let's get some pictures posted!!!:)
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 10:03 AM
Sorry man, Vultures are finishing it as i write this.
Epoxy is busy drying now(30 min left) then ill get a pic up.
Think i got over enthusiastic with the tempering. tip, spine and tang are blue and the cutting edge is brown/straw colour. Hope i havent skrewed it up but i figure that this blade will be used for more heavy duty stuff so slightly softer should be better, do you agree?
7X57chilmau
July 9, 2009, 10:15 AM
Sounds like a temper somewhere between a hard-use knife and a short sword.... I'll bet it'll be serviceable, though the edge will wear somewhat quickly at the tip. Yellow to brown for the bulk of the edge is just fine.
A sword would typically be tempered to a brown-purple for the cutting edges, FWIW.
Ain't gonna be a shaver, but if all went well, you should be able to beat on it like a kukri, one of the world's hardest working (and fighting) knives....
Back on Page 1, have a look at the heavily curved fighting knife.... Notice the glint of brown/purple on the blade... A similar temper, I believe...
J
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 11:39 AM
Well here it is, finally done except for the final sharpening.
I am O, so happy with my new knife.
Decided to keep the case hardend colour instead of polishing, I think it looks beautifull.
Dimensions: Length = 33 cm (OAL)
Blade = 21.5cm
Blade thickness = 6mm
3 x welding rod pins
Rhodesian Teak handle
That looks pretty good! Very clean looking furniture!
I'd hate to have to maintain that recurved edge, though.... But I prefer sharpening with flat stones, myself.
How does it balance? Can we get some shots of the other side, and maybe some close-ups of the handle and guard work?
You've come a long way in these 9 pages. Sure looks like you're having fun!
J
hso
July 9, 2009, 11:59 AM
Great work!
Your ricasso is a little small and you have just a little gap between the guard and the ricasso, but those aren't uncommon for folks that have a lot more experience than you do. Work on getting a better plunge for your bevel. The multiple hammer marks aren't what you want to see and indicate you need to improve your hammer control. That's something a smith will chew your tail about. Good job.
You're going to find that the rough surface of the steel may become a real problem for promoting rust. Keep an eye on it.
I agree that the bend in the blade looks like a bend and not a recurve. I agree that it will prove annoying to deal with.
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 12:10 PM
Luckily I prefer to sharpen my blades with a diamond stick and prefer free hand so the curve wont be a problem. I have got access to a mini belt sander designed for sharpening knives and have sharpend this blade (before HT) with it and it seems to work just fine.
Those marks on the blade are not hammer blows(except for the area close to the gaurd), it seems to be from carbon build up and then with hammering, creates these dents where the carbon was.
The knife is very blade heavy, next time ill do a nice heavy butt cap.
Please remember that this is the third (3) knife that i have ever built from scratch. Im very happy and think that this bowie is a huge improvement from my other two. I do realise that i have lots to learn. They can only get better with practice.
Ill try get some close ups.
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 12:16 PM
Batterys flat. Will try in 30min.
7X57chilmau
July 9, 2009, 12:28 PM
Mok, don't take our criticisms to heart, without them improvement is difficult! Few would believe that one could turn out such a piece with only a couple weeks experience and 2 other blades produced, based largely on the guidance of a few guys (mostly amatures themselves) on the internet.
Your work is a testament to you and your tenacity and your creative vision. Every blade shape is a result of compromises and the smith's vision, and every shape has its weaknesses. The trick is to have a blade with mostly important strenghts to counter a few minor weaknesses.
Hso's right about rough surface blades being somewhat more rust prone, but if you are reasonably careful to put it away dry after use, it should be fine. From what little I know, you're not in one of the world's wettest places anyway, eh?
I've got great respect for the skills you've built in such short order, using the most basic equipment. Good on you!
J
Mokwepa
July 9, 2009, 12:46 PM
Thanks. Going to take some closeups now. Will post in about 10.
I'll say it again.... You did some real nice work there, Mok! I really like the guard's shape...
The blade has a touch of single-edged Kriss-ness to it, I think...
J
bikerdoc
July 9, 2009, 02:40 PM
I like it! Wish i could do it. Still learning to grind on wood. But I will catch to you one of these years
hso
July 9, 2009, 04:00 PM
Mok,
I'm not referring to hammer marks on the blade, it looks fine from that standpoint. Where you set your bevel at the ricasso is called the "plunge". You can see that there are some hammer marks there. That indicates that the piece "bounced" a little when you were setting the plunge and that the hammer didn't fall on the exact same spot while you were giving it a good whack. That can happen if you don't have a solid enough grip on the steel and it moves a bit or it can happen if you get in a hurry and don't land the hammer in the same place or it can happen when you don't hit hard enough on your first blow with the hammer. You also have to "feel" where the first blow set the plunge on the edge of the "anvil". Most of the time you make that first blow and the slide the blade back and forth a little feeling for the "dimple" the anvil made on the underside of the blade. When it drops in place you give it another hard blow to fully set the plunge. Those two blows should be all you need to start forging the bevel.
You're doing great, just keep reading and keep beating steel.
HoosierQ
July 9, 2009, 05:20 PM
That is a very, very nice knife. Love the teak handle, very nice.
messerist
July 9, 2009, 09:34 PM
You should be able to turn a wildebeest into steak tartare for the vultures in no time flat with that blade. Great job! One word of advice for you when making your guards. Measure the thickness and width where the guard meets the ricasso. Then undersize it just a little and transfer those measurements to your guard. Drill out the hole and then start filing out the guard a little at a time, checking your fit as you progress. Tight fitting guards are easiest to solder. Hope that helps with your guards. Again great work! Good luck!:)
Mokwepa
July 10, 2009, 07:26 AM
Ok, Im keen to try a spear. Something like a Zulu Assagai.
How much harder is it to forge a socket type spear? Ive given it some thought and am a bit worried about the socket. I dont have a propper anvil so i dont know how im going to forge the socket into that cone shape. Anyone have some ideas for me?
Mokwepa
July 10, 2009, 08:51 AM
OK, started playing with the bowie.
Can any of you guys give me some tests that i can put the bowie through. I would like to test edge holding capabilities and blade strength.
Dont know if the water bottle test is any good, been told its a good test for sharpness and handle/tang strength.
I forged mine from a high carbon railroad spike. High carbon is relative with a railroad spike, but ones marked with H or HC on the head are actually about 1040 steel, which with a water quench become suitably hard for spear use. No temper needed. 1040 is also much easier to spread the socket on, it must be forged out very thin. The bottom of my sockets is typically under 1mm thick.
I start with the point in the tongs and the head in the fire, aiming for a high yellow heat. I forge the head back into the spike's body. I ALWAYS forge the tang or socket or handle first, and the blade last. This helps to avoid bending up a forged blade unnecessarily, and avoids too many heats to the blade's steel after it's shaped. Take pains to avoid folding the head into the body, just drive it in without folds.
Then using a cross pein or straight pein hammer, I forge the head end of the spike out laterally, to begin to form the socket. The steel will spread towards the flats of the pein on the hammer, so this helps spread the steel in the direction you'd like. After many heats, you'll have a very ugly piece that looks rather like a garden trowel with a roughly triangular blade... At the top of the socket, try to forge in a spine that goes down about 2-3" into the socket, to carry bending forces from the blade into the socket. Like the vein on a leaf.
Continue spreading the socket until you've got enough material to make the socket. I aim my spearheads for 1-1/8" shafts, so that requires 1.125" X 3.14, or about 3.5" wide "trowel", and the socket is usually about 6-7" long. I clean up my sockets by cutting off the rough edges with a hardie or cold chisel.
Now flip the work and forge the blade you desire. The socket is still a flat triangular plate.
Once the blade is shaped, coax the socket into a conical shape. A pointed steel bar can help to form it around. The edges of the socket should about meet, but not overlap. The socket is left unwelded.
Straighten, normalize, heat to medium red and quench in water (or appropriate medium for the steel you're using... I'm using 1040 RR spike)....
Taper the end of your spear shaft to match the socket. Ram the head onto the shaft. The unwelded socket will spread slightly and grip the shaft very firmly. Drill thru both the socket and shaft, near the base of the socket, and pin the head to the shaft.
The spearhead's OAL is about 13", 6" blade, 7" socket/tang.
While I have yet to make one, there should be a steel fitting on the base of the spear too. This can be made from a piece of iron pipe, forged to a point at one end. Provides a wear surface, and a striking/stabbing piece on the butt....
Here's the first one I made, for a friend.... It's a bit rough, but it turned out OK. Also, I've used the same technique to turn out arrow points from 1/4" music wire.... But that needs more careful heat treat. Fun to make, a challenge in hammer and heat control. The arrowheads are about 3" OAL, and fit 5/16 shafts.
I don't consider pop bottles to offer any challenge to a decent tang, but they do show some sharpness and cutting ability. I play that way myself on occasion. A katana seems to be the hardest blade to weild properly to accomplish a good cut. My dagger performs similarly to your bowie.
A decent test of edge and blade strength is to chop a 2x4 in half. When the edge is firmly embedded, be sure to twist and reef on it. If it doesn't break or chip out, and the blade/tang holds up to extended chopping, you're doing well.
I destructively tested a small blade once just to see. It was a crude music wire blade, like my little pen knives. I clamped the tip in a bench vice and pulled. It flexed (with no perm. bend) to about 60 degrees over 2" of blade before breaking. I was OK with that.
I hate testing my creations to destruction, though, I'd have to say.
J
Mokwepa
July 10, 2009, 10:34 AM
I agree, I dont want to break it, im just keen to see if my hardening and tempering were done OK.
7X57chilmau
July 10, 2009, 10:57 AM
If your hardening and tempering are OK, spend some time hacking relatively heavy wood, using the knife as a hatchet. If:
The blade or tang breaks, it is too brittle or was overheated (which would show with a very coarse grain at the break)
The edge chips: Temper too hard.
The edge rolls or dents or burrs: Temper too soft
The blade or tang bends: Temper too soft or hardening failed. Possible low hardening temperature, or too slow cooling.
Knife stays straight, edge wears but doesn't burr or chip out: You got it right.
Spring steel is mighty tough stuff. You'll likely see edge wear and maybe a minor burr here or there, with generally good survival. That's been my experience...
Test tip strenght by stabbing the tip into wood, then pulling the butt over to cam it out. If the tip bends or cracks, you have an obvious problem. It should just dig itself out.
J
J
hso
July 10, 2009, 12:07 PM
Mokwepa,
Look up the ABS cutting competition test if you want a thorough test of the blade.
1 inch hemp or sisal rope free hanging cut (how many thicknesses will it cut in one chop)
Untreated framing 2X4 chopping (how long does it take to chop through a single framing stud)
How many cuts through 1 inch hemp or sisal rope can be made before it slides instead of cuts
Bending without taking a set or breaking (don't do this with your knife unless you're willing to watch it break or take a permanent bend)
Mokwepa
July 12, 2009, 05:25 AM
Guys, im on leave for a week now.
I have started a Zulu fighting spear though and will update with pics when i get back from leave.
hso
July 12, 2009, 08:31 AM
That would be very interesting.
Any chance that there are any tribal smiths that you could send pictures of?
7X57chilmau
July 13, 2009, 11:15 AM
I've been thinking (as I wallow in my ignorance of S. Africa) if there must not be some local smithing going on there, but that may be the result of watching too many movies.
I finally got around to making the spear butt-cap I mentioned a couple posts back this weekend. I neglected to get a photo though, I'll fix that when I get the chance....
The spear was the primary arm of the world's armies for millenia. More effective in unskilled hands than a sword, and a fraction the cost to produce (about as easy to make as a small dagger, but with a reach that far exceeds), one has been in the hand of every grunt in every campaign until the last couple hundred years.
Those grunts walked alot, APC's being in short supply. The spear was their staff. A wooden butt will quickly be worn short. So a steel cap is applied.
Since spear fighting techniques are the immediate decendants of rifle/bayonette forms, it can be seen that a butt-stroke is integral. So our butt cap might as well be an offensive weapon too....
The cap I made is a short socket-mounted bodkin style penetrating point. My spear shaft is 1.125" diameter. I started the cap with a bit of 1" pipe nipple (1.315" OD) that came out of my water well a couple years back. I cut off about 2" of unthreaded pipe, and the threads on one end. Had I a longer piece at hand, I'd have used it, but this was available, about 3" overall.
The nipple I had was galvanized, so I used a bench grinder to remove the bulk of the zinc to avoid the toxic effects of zinc heated to forging temps. I also ground off the threads, leaving part of the pipe thinner than I'd have liked. More on that later.
I placed the nipple in the forge and allowed the rest of the zinc to burn off while I found other things to do.
Now I held the hot nipple by the thick (previously unthreaded) end, and began forgeing down the previously threaded end. By continuously turning the piece while forgeing it in the corner between anvil table and anvilface, I was able to easily reduce the diameter of the pipe. I continued until the pipe was closed in, fluxing with Borax and forge welding the piece as it closed up..... It looked like a crude wine glass without a foot at this point. The thin steel where I'd ground the threads off was a bit weaker than I'd have preferred (this wouldn't be the case If I'd used enough material in the first place and hadn't had to use the threaded portion). I used my MIG setup to build it up a touch, then finished working it into a short bodkin, maybe 2" long and 3/8" thick at the point. I ground a 90 degree pyramidal point on it.
Then I held the piece by the point, and forged the socket down to match the shaft's OD, same as before, but slowly and carefully. I used my post vice as a caliper to compare.
Finally, I relieved the butt of the spear shaft until it was a very tight fit with the cap. Banged it on, making some pretty good chips in my basement floor in the process. Cross-drilled and pinned with a copper pin to finish.
This little project turned out far easier than I'd imagined. Preventing buckling of the pipe as you forge it down is easier than you'd think. It should wear well thru any number of miles, and I'd hate to be the unfortunate fellow with his head interposed between this implement and an immovable surface...
J
hso
July 13, 2009, 11:59 AM
I placed the nipple in the forge and allowed the rest of the zinc to burn off while I found other things to do.
Any zinc coated metal should be avoided for any forging if you can't remove all of the zinc before heating. There are too many sad stories of smiths being harmed by zinc fume to make it worthwhile.
7X57chilmau
July 13, 2009, 12:47 PM
Yup, this I know. All but trace was removed before placing the piece in the fire. I don't think any was present inside the pipe (it was pretty rusty), but did this to be sure.
All exterior zinc was ground off prior....
J
theotherwaldo
July 13, 2009, 01:56 PM
-That's why I stick with black-iron gas pipe wherever possible for this kind of stuff.
No, I don't 'smith - yet - but I weld a good bit.
Back in my Society for Creative Anachronism days I made a bunch of Roman-style pilae. The heads were made from junk throwing knives that were far too brittle for their original function. Many were already broken. I notched them on the grinding wheel and broke them to match their new function, then took them to a local school and used an EDM machine to make rivet holes.
Then I went to a dump site and scrounged up some slide bars for the sides of old baby beds to use as pilum shafts. They were a little large in diameter for scale, but, since we didn't want them to bend like the originals, that was OK. These were hammered straight, a flat was ground and hammered on one end to accept the blade, holes drilled, rivets made from de-tempered nails, then the whole thing was assembled on drilled-out shop broom sticks. Some had (black iron) pipe-nipple ferrules, others were wire-wrapped. We didn't reinforce the joints too much, as we preferred to break the stick rather than bend the rod.
They wound up looking like this, except that they had leaf-shaped blades:
http://axis101a.com/images/pilum_large.jpg
Greebe
July 13, 2009, 02:28 PM
I know its not a knife but here is a tomahawk that I reforged, shaped, and heat treated from a poorly designed tomahawk. It was good steel but a crappy design. The blade was very fat and needed to be thinned and had a funny up swept blade. I did this project when I was about 17 in my dads shop. That was 12 years ago and it has seen heavy use in Alaska and it is still going strong. I even re-tempered the blade once over a charcoal fire while out in the Alaskan Bush.
It usually was fitted with a hickory handle but when it wore out while out in the bush all I had around was diamond willow, so I made this one quickly with the idea that I would re handle it when I got somewhere to buy a piece of hickory. That was 4 years ago now and the diamond willow has held up much better than hickory ever did. I am now sold on the willow for tomahawk handles. Anyways enough talk, here is the photo:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r58/GreebeDBS/Hawk.jpg
Greebe
7X57chilmau
July 13, 2009, 02:36 PM
Nice work, Gentlemen!
Greebe, this thread isn't really limited to knives, I think, despite the title.... It has grown beyond what Mokwepa intended, I think, and so has he!
One thing's for sure.... I'm glad I'm not one of the poor saps in the front lines of some long forgotten army of yore. Man, that was an aweful, bloody art.
J
messerist
July 13, 2009, 09:52 PM
This thread is getting better with every post! Keep it up boys! I got some things in the works and will post asap. Good Luck!:)
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