Insert for flare pistol


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godsdog
June 11, 2009, 01:57 PM
Has anyone got any input on the insert that adapts the plastic Orion marine flare pistol to fire .38 special rounds? Just heard about this myself, don't know anything about it.

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MagnumDweeb
June 11, 2009, 04:14 PM
That ought to be interesting. A single shot of .38 spcl versus a shot of colored willy pete.

Actually know a Orthodox Jew (he looks like a Rabbi to most) for when he goes to New York City always carries a few flare guns. He says he can carry them because they are 'signaling devices' and that they are not outlawed in the city parts where goes.

"Hey there mister mugger I'm going to fire off this flare here to let people know I need help, could you please not come at me while I'm getting ready to fire it off." Mugger moves forward cursing and demanding, and would-be victim frightfully fires off the flare. "Well gee there mister mugger rolling on the ground won't put out that willy pete you got all over yourself, I realize you are burning alive and all but could you quiet down."---Can just imagine a self-defense claim coming out that one. I'd rather have the flare round as opposed to a single shot of .38 spcl.

cuervo
June 11, 2009, 04:18 PM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/050406_firelauncher.htm

Ed Ames
June 11, 2009, 05:02 PM
The ATF determination was based on non-rifled inserts. Why wouldn't they be rifled?

Speedo66
June 12, 2009, 06:48 AM
Interesting that the article mentioned the "eventual" destruction of the flare guns.

How many shots is "eventual"? Every gun faces eventual destruction (of one type or another) by shooting it.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
June 12, 2009, 06:57 AM
I imagine the german surplus metal 25mm flare guns carried by the sportsmans guide would fare better.

chuckusaret
June 12, 2009, 11:00 AM
I have several Orion marine flare pistols on my boat. As they are designed they work well and safely and who in their right mind would modify them as shown in the video. The manufacturer of the barrel mod is just asking for a law suite against him, not to mention one from Orion also. The modification looks like a good way to reap much harm on a persons thumb and index finger.

deadin
June 12, 2009, 11:06 AM
I would imagine the manufacturer would argue that the insert was just to use .38 Special/ .357 Mag flares. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge :barf:)
Surely they didn't think that someone would be stupid enough to shoot actual ammo in them.:rolleyes:

In answer to the earlier question "Why aren't they rifled?" Rifling would raise the pressures even further with a ball load.

Ed Ames
June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
Dunno... micro and very long twist rifling don't do much.

There are .45C to .22LR and .308 to .32acp sleeves and the ones I've seen are "rifled".

Ed Ames
June 12, 2009, 11:14 AM
Dunno... micro and very long twist rifling don't do much.

There are .45C to .22LR and .308 to .32acp sleeves and the ones I've seen are "rifled".

deadin
June 12, 2009, 01:24 PM
And these are for firearms that are designed to handle a much heavier cartridge than the one being converted to.
Big difference of shooting a .22 LR in a gun chambered in 45LC and shooting a 38 Sp. in a plastic flare launcher.:what:

Carl N. Brown
June 12, 2009, 01:42 PM
The 12 ga sub caliber inserts are for firing .38 Special etc in a 12 gauge shotgun.

When used and fired in the common white or orange plastic flare gun, the frame breaks between the breech face and the barrel pivot and usually shatters into several pieces. That virtually constitutes an unregistered handgrenade. I would not have confidence in using the 12 ga adapter for .22 shotshells in a flare gun either.

There are inserts to fire 12ga Marine Flares in a 26mm Flare gun, also. If used for 12 ga shotgun shells, even a brass or iron flare gun may fail. Using the .38 adapter in a 12 ga adapter in a 26mm flaregun does not appeal to me either.

Live ammo produces more chamber pressure than a flare shell, and most available flareguns are deliberately NOT designed to be used with ball ammo of any type. Shoot only flares in a flare gun, and save the subcaliber 12ga inserts for use in 12ga shotguns.

Yes, there are inserts advertised on the internet for flare guns, but that does not make the flareguns any stronger.

Ed Ames
June 12, 2009, 01:44 PM
Point was the quotes around "rifled"... they have scratches but not much twist.

Anyway, it would be easy to design a converter with breach that would handle high pressures. If rifled I'm not sure why it would be an AOW or a firearm at all.

RyanM
June 12, 2009, 01:56 PM
Anyway, it would be easy to design a converter with breach that would handle high pressures. If rifled I'm not sure why it would be an AOW or a firearm at all.

Problem isn't chamber pressure. An aluminum insert by itself can handle .38 SPL fine. The problem is the rearward thrust on the breech face. I don't know what chamber pressure flares operate at, but I doubt it's higher than 200 PSI. Probably closer to 100.

But if we assume it's 200 PSI, then that pressure on a .729" circle (Newton's third law means you don't have to figure out the diameter of the case inside; the force pushing the case back is identical to the force pushing the bullet out)... the lockup experiences 83.5 pounds of force.

.38 SPL, on the other hand, is 17,000 PSI on a .357" circle. 1,701.7 pounds.

Even a .22 short (21,000 PSI, .223") exerts 820.2 pounds.

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Ed Ames
June 12, 2009, 02:23 PM
I think the numbers speak for themselves.

For themselves but not to the point.

It would be easy to design a converter with breach...

DHJenkins
June 12, 2009, 04:53 PM
Great. Now I want a flare gun.

As if I don't already have enough things on my 'to-buy' list.

Thanks alot.

godsdog
June 12, 2009, 05:11 PM
So where do you get them? These inserts...

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