Mythbusters NFA Violation


PDA






rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 02:57 PM
Anyone else see the Mythbusters smoothbore 1911 conversion done on national TV last night?

Bet the AFT was there when they unlocked the door this morning!

What a shame they broke the law on national television without so much as mentioning the NFA law prohibiting it without a tax stamp.

Hope no Mythbuster wannabe's get in trouble following their lead!

rc

If you enjoyed reading about "Mythbusters NFA Violation" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
TexasRifleman
June 11, 2009, 02:58 PM
I've suspected that show must have an SOT on the payroll somewhere given some of the things they have done.

Don't know that to be a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Owen
June 11, 2009, 02:59 PM
definitely a case of a victimless crime.

Phatty
June 11, 2009, 03:04 PM
What a shame they broke the law on national television without so much as mentioning the NFA law prohibiting it without a tax stamp.
I didn't watch this episode, but how do you know they didn't pay the tax? I'm sure a lot of their stunts on the show require them to get all sorts of licensing, permission, etc. and they don't bother to fill in the viewers because nobody cares about that crap. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that they don't have all their i's dotted and t's crossed for every action they take on the show.

GonHuntin
June 11, 2009, 03:04 PM
What, exactly, is the violation??

Unregistered AOW???

The legal definition of an AOW is as follows:




TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter B > PART I > § 5845Prev | Next
§ 5845. Definitions
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Since the 45 auto barrel they modified was not "designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell", I doubt the charge would hold up in court.........but I don't want to be the test case either!!

AlexIT
June 11, 2009, 03:10 PM
Notice they add "Don't try this at home" so they are not held responsible for what people do that they see on their show.

blkbrd666
June 11, 2009, 03:22 PM
So, if shoot out the barrel of my 1911, it becomes illegal???

Jim Watson
June 11, 2009, 03:31 PM
Legalities aside, what did they do with it?

Oyeboten
June 11, 2009, 03:33 PM
So, if shoot out the barrel of my 1911, it becomes illegal???


My understanding, is, technically, 'yes'...

Jim K
June 11, 2009, 03:34 PM
No, but if you ream out the rifling it would be illegal.

I have no doubt that the Mythbusters producers obtain what ever licenses or tax stamps are necessary for what they want to do, and that they have the clout to get quick action. They also get cooperation from the military and the police, so the work could have been done under the auspices of someone in authority.

(Can you imagine the hoops I would have to jump through if I wanted to pack a ton of explosives into a car and blow it to kingdom come?)

Jim

NavyLCDR
June 11, 2009, 03:40 PM
Who is the AFT? Why would the American Federation of Teachers or the American Farmland Trust care about a Mythbusters show?

MagnumDweeb
June 11, 2009, 03:44 PM
What benefit would you get from having a smooth bore 1911. You'd lose accuracy like crazy.

CoRoMo
June 11, 2009, 03:59 PM
They reside in the elite category, of which the ATF has no interest in embarrassing.

They've often used a Dillon Aero M134 mini-gun, which is out-of-the-question illegal in Cali.

Nobody at the ATF cares about them.

rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 04:00 PM
Legalities aside, what did they do with it?Some stupid Bradgalena movie shows "throwing" a gun around in a sweeping circle in front of you to cause the bullet to "curve" around someone between you and the target as it is fired.

They couldn't do it with a rifled barrel, (surprise!) so they tried it with a smooth-bore barrel. (Keyholes, but no fast pitch curve balls. Surprise again!)

Anyway, I was wondering if California law even allows an AOW to be manufactured in the state, tax stamp or not?

Dillon mini-gun--- which is out-of-the-question illegal in Cali.
Nobody at the ATF cares about them.Dillon Aero is a licensed military MG manufacture, located in Arizona.
That's also were they go to film the mini-gun shoots for Mythbusters.


rc

Jon_Snow
June 11, 2009, 04:28 PM
Nope, no AOW's at all here in CA. But they probably made it in Arizona. And for a TV show a $200 tax stamp is pocket change.

rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 04:35 PM
NO, Keri made it on the lathe in the MB shop, which I assume in in California?

I know $200 is pocket change for a TV show.

I just don't believe anyone bothered to get one or they would have surely said so.

I still think they should have said it was against Federal Law to drill out a pistol barrel without a blessing from the BATmen if they had a lick of sense, or knowledge of the requirement.

rc

Prince Yamato
June 11, 2009, 04:43 PM
Actually, you CAN own evil things in California provided that you have the proper state licenses. I don't know the exact wording of the law but it basically is an exemption for film/production companies.

CoRoMo
June 11, 2009, 04:52 PM
I've always wondered about the Dillon shoots I've seen because they never seemed to disclose the location, and in fact, snickered about the illegality of the act inside California. I had guessed Nevada, but Arizona works too.

I still say that they won't hear from the ATF, ever.

rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 04:52 PM
I remember when the BATF raided the set of the Bounty Hunter TV show because of Steve McQueens sawed-off Mair's Leg Winchester.

They got in a heap a trouble.

rc

mgkdrgn
June 11, 2009, 04:54 PM
As a movie special effects place, I would rather suspect that they have just about every firearm/pyrotechnic license, seal, banner, approval, yadda yadda yadda known to man just so they can go about their daily business.

Just like the Theatre group in DC that has an FFL, so that they can receive and ship prop firearms.

Zerodefect
June 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
They have permission to do such things.

Many shows have illegal weapons. Stargate used P90's. There are special laws in effect for Hollywierd.

I'd imagine that if a gun has its bore destoyed so that it can fire blanks, then maybe thats the loophole that allows them to do what they do.

The .gov deosn't have the right to make any gun illegal anyway, but as long as the sheep are cool with it...........

maskedman504
June 11, 2009, 05:06 PM
I think most of you must not realize that getting by with anything questionable is accomplished in one of three ways.

Knowing someone high up,
Hollywood, government or God. Usually in that order.


In all seriousness, do you think the production studio employs any lawyers? :rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
June 11, 2009, 05:11 PM
Anyway, I was wondering if California law even allows an AOW to be manufactured in the state, tax stamp or not?

California DOES make exception to their NFA related laws for filmmaking.

Someone has posted the exact statutes before but there is an exception for the entertainment industry.

ETA: Found it. If one holds an "Entertainment Firearms Permit" there are no NFA restrictions in California.

No idea how you get one of those, but having and using machineguns inside California is not a problem for the entertainment industry.

It's done all the time for TV and movies.

Floppy_D
June 11, 2009, 05:13 PM
So did anyone who watched this catch the Time Warp afterwards? Super-slow-mo bullets versus watermelons, kevlar helmets, blocks of ice, tracers vs. cans of gas.... good TV! :D

Steamboatsig
June 11, 2009, 05:39 PM
The slow motion is made better if you have a DVR and slow it down even more!!!

GonHuntin
June 11, 2009, 05:41 PM
Still waiting for someone to show why it was an NFA violation???

rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 06:05 PM
Gonhuntin quoted the NFA law in post #5.

Did you miss it?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5675244&postcount=5

All smoothbore handguns are AOW's and have to have a tax stamp.

rc

Phatty
June 11, 2009, 06:13 PM
All smoothbore handguns designed to fire shotgun shells are AOW's and have to have a tax stamp.
Fixed it for you.

rcmodel
June 11, 2009, 06:21 PM
Whatever.

But since CCI makes shotshells in about all common handgun calibers, I think it is a moot point.

It has been my understanding for a very long time that you can't just ream the rifling out of a handgun barrel.

rc

Phatty
June 11, 2009, 06:30 PM
But since CCI makes shotshells in about all common handgun calibers, I think it is a moot point.
I know this is kind of going way off topic, but I'm curious about what the purpose would be for shotshell in handgun calibers? Is there actually a market for NFA handguns that shoot shotshells? If I wanted to, could I find shotshells that would cycle and shoot in my .22 handgun? If so, what would the size of the actual shot be?

U.S.SFC_RET
June 11, 2009, 06:36 PM
Purpose for shotshells in a hand gun? Snakes and rats in a barn. a 45acp is potent.

GonHuntin
June 11, 2009, 06:46 PM
Gonhuntin quoted the NFA law in post #5.

Did you miss it?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....44&postcount=5

All smoothbore handguns are AOW's and have to have a tax stamp.

rc


Did I miss it.......no, I posted it!!!

Go back and look at the definition.......the 1911 45 auto was NOT designed to fire fixed shotgun shells, so it doesn't fit the definition of an AOW.........I doubt that the existence of the CCI "shot shells" changes that fact........that you understand it differently doesn't mean you are correct.

Again, I doubt that reaming the 1911 barrel would result in an arrest for violation of NFA and, even if it did I believe it would be more unlikely to result in a conviction.......not saying I want to be the test case, but I think people are making more of this than they should.......

tcsnake
June 11, 2009, 06:51 PM
HAHAHA!!, have you seen that one dudes mustache?!
That guy can do whatever the hell he wants!

eitrheim31
June 11, 2009, 06:54 PM
TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter B > PART I > § 5845Prev | Next
§ 5845. Definitions
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

i was wondering what law they broke as well, that 45 they destroyed was not firing shotgun shells, it was still .45 ball ammo.

Tadman
June 11, 2009, 11:19 PM
One more time.....

Quote:
a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell
if it isn't designed to redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.......by definition, it ain't an AOW........

GonHuntin,
You are correct in your reading of the law, the full text can be found here (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=26&sec=5845)

However you are defining "fixed shotgun shell", much too narrowly. These, WX2-9482 CCIŽ Shot Shells .45 ACP #9 (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=289683&kwtid=211811), are shotgun shells too.

45 acp shotshells were once issued in survival packets by the U.S. military at one time according to this (http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature1001.html) article.

The following is my opinion, I cannot find any case law on this subject:
A bureaucracy which can define a malfunctioning SKS carbine as machinegun will have no problem defining WX2-9482 CCIŽ Shot Shells .45 ACP #9 (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=289683&kwtid=211811), as "fixed shotgun shells":what: thus classifying your smoothbore 1911 style pistol as "AOW".
YMMV
ATK
DOH! shuda posted here first:banghead:
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.:rolleyes:

1858rem
June 11, 2009, 11:40 PM
i was wondering what law they broke as well, that 45 they destroyed was not firing shotgun shells, it was still .45 ball ammo.



excellent point,


who brought up the shotgunshell thing? i missed the episode

Tadman
June 11, 2009, 11:48 PM
1858rem
Quote:
i was wondering what law they broke as well, that 45 they destroyed was not firing shotgun shells, it was still .45 ball ammo.


excellent point,


who brought up the shotgunshell thing? i missed the episode

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


So I build an NFA firearm in my shop, but only use in in a non NFA manner, do I still need a tax stamp?:what:

outerlimit
June 12, 2009, 12:32 AM
Whatever they do on tv, has nothing to do with the laws us common folk have to live with.

zoom6zoom
June 12, 2009, 10:13 AM
Stargate used P90's.
-not sure about the movie, but the series were filmed in Canada.

EOD Guy
June 12, 2009, 10:23 AM
One more time.....

Quote:
a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell
if it isn't designed to redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.......by definition, it ain't an AOW........

GonHuntin,
You are correct in your reading of the law, the full text can be found here

However you are defining "fixed shotgun shell", much too narrowly. These, WX2-9482 CCIŽ Shot Shells .45 ACP #9, are shotgun shells too.

No, they are not. They are defined as "shotshells", not shotgun shells. Otherwise just about every handgun made would be illegal in California since any handgun (rifled or not) that can fire a fixed shotgun shell is defined as a "short barrelled shotgun" here. That's why the Taurus Judge is illegal in California.

EOD Guy
June 12, 2009, 10:33 AM
They reside in the elite category, of which the ATF has no interest in embarrassing.

They've often used a Dillon Aero M134 mini-gun, which is out-of-the-question illegal in Cali.

No they're not. We have two of them at work.:D

Tommygunn
June 12, 2009, 10:50 AM
Many shows have illegal weapons. Stargate used P90's. There are special laws in effect for Hollywierd.

1.) Stargate Atlantis is filmed in Canada, not Hollywood.
2.) The P90s they use are not real guns. If not being shot they are dummy prop guns. If being shot they are using propane gas for the muzzle blasts and are SFX guns. They may even use CGI effects now -- but they do not use real guns.

Loyalist Dave
June 12, 2009, 10:54 AM
They've often used a Dillon Aero M134 mini-gun, which is out-of-the-question illegal in Cali.

Nobody at the ATF cares about them.

Why would the BATF worry about a California regulation? They enforce the federal laws not Arnold's laws.

Stargate used P90's. Stargate SG-1 was filmed in Canada, and have used HK MP5-D look alikes, as well as P90 and M60 look alikes. They are converted to use propane and eject "spent casings". Some are are fitted with special barrels that will chamber a custom blank, and cause the gun to function, but if you could chamber a live round, would blow up the gun as the bore is restricted to cause the gas system to operate.

LD

CoRoMo
June 12, 2009, 12:50 PM
So... if a pistol with a smooth bore barrel that is not designed nor redesigned to fire fixed shotgun shells is legal, have we gotten to the bottom of this?

rcmodel
June 12, 2009, 01:04 PM
Apparently not, as there are no commercially manufactured smoothbore handguns made in the United States.

Jim Harvey , of Lakeville Arms got in trouble many years ago for converting old S&W 1917 revolvers to smoothbore to shoot rat shoot better.

Thompson/Center got in trouble years ago for selling smoothbore Contender SS pistols that fired .45 Colt and .410 shotshells.

They had to re-design it with a rifled barrel and a removable choke system with straight rifling to stop the shot spin to make the BATF happy.

rc

Carl N. Brown
June 12, 2009, 01:21 PM
I have used .22 #12 ratshot or "snake loads" in rifles and pistols since I was a kid. But US legal handguns must have rifled barrels; only exception is muzzleloaders.

Anyway, Mythbusters has used exotic firearms and explosives, usually showing an FBI or SFPD officer standing by as supervision. I think Discovery Channel is probably lawyered and papered out the wazoo on any program that shows anything remotely dangerous or of restricted legality.

The movie being tested was "Wanted" starring Angelina Jolie as an elite assassin who could curve bullets around targets like curveballs by flinging her gun arm. Real "graphic novel" comic book ballistics. Maybe the assassins used telekinesis to control the bullets if they were so special.

toivo
June 12, 2009, 02:19 PM
The movie being tested was "Wanted" starring Angelina Jolie as an elite assassin who could curve bullets around targets like curveballs by flinging her gun arm.

I'm pretty much "scientifically challenged," but wouldn't the velocity of your arm motion have to be greater than the muzzle velocity of the weapon in order to have any effect at all on the trajectory of the bullet? Do you know anybody who can fling their arm at >1000 fps?

In reference to the OP, +1 on it being highly unlikely that anything done on the show hasn't been green-lighted by a battery of lawyers in all the relevant specialities.

Phatty
June 12, 2009, 02:34 PM
So what's the reason (if any) for restricting smooth bore pistols if a shotshell can just as easily be fired from a rifled barrel as from a smooth barrel?

rcmodel
June 12, 2009, 02:44 PM
A rifled barrel will spin the shot charge, and as soon as it comes out of the muzzle, it spreads rapidly. This makes them a very short-range proposition at best.

Near as I can figure out, sawed-off shotguns were outlawed in 1934 in response to their use by the gangsters of the era.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2885.htm

That lead to it carrying over into smoothbore handguns as well for whatever reason.

I think now it relates more to the supposedly "untraceable" gun idea, that a smoothbore pistol barrel leaves no rifling marks for CSI to look at on TV.

Like a lot of other BATF rules & regulations, it makes no sense, but it's been the law of the land since 1934, and nobody is gonna change it so it does make sense today.

rc

cowart
June 12, 2009, 04:35 PM
could I find shotshells that would cycle and shoot in my .22 handgun?Yes - see
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=586641

ChaoSS
June 12, 2009, 04:56 PM
I know this is kind of going way off topic, but I'm curious about what the purpose would be for shotshell in handgun calibers? Is there actually a market for NFA handguns that shoot shotshells? If I wanted to, could I find shotshells that would cycle and shoot in my .22 handgun? If so, what would the size of the actual shot be? Yeah, i just saw some at wallyworld yesterday.

I once cleaned out a house after the renters moved out, we found those rounds all over the place. My guess is that they were trying to kill mice with them (no idea how effective that is) or they were hunting spiders. No idea, but they seemed to be shooting them off alot in the house.

rcmodel
June 12, 2009, 05:03 PM
This is a far better shotshell for .22's then the star-crimped brass ones Federal & Winchester make.

CCI Shotcap shells:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=178005

Better pattern, more shot, no barrel leading.

CCI also makes them in .22 WRM, 9mm, .40 S&W, .38 Spl/.357 mag/.44 Spl/.44 Mag, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt.

rc

CoRoMo
June 12, 2009, 06:19 PM
How rifled does a barrel have to be to be out of the smooth bore column?

Can a minuscule amount of inept rifling check the box?
What about an absurdly arranged rifling like the picture below?
(it would obviously have little affect as rifling)

Art Eatman
June 13, 2009, 12:25 PM
Gone wanderin' way OT...

If you enjoyed reading about "Mythbusters NFA Violation" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!