[Tirod]

Wanting a Super Tackycool Doodad pistol gripped Breacher Home Defense Shotgun? Are you also interested in time shares on the Brooklyn Bridge?

I've been researching shotguns configured for the home defense role, and there sure is a lot of hype, marketing, and outright, deliberate, and blatantly dangerous stuff being foisted on the American market right now.

Let's look at the job requirements - shooting at extremely close ranges in a flimsy sheetrock container with family members probably on the other side of the wall. It's dark, quarters are as constricted as much as a typical wood land, sightlines are obstructed, you've completely lost fine motor control, and probably don't know where the BG is.

1) A 12 ga isn't required - 20 will do.
2) Magnum loads are unnecessary.
3) A shorter configuration is preferred.
4) Pistol grips are an anti-ergonomic abomination invented by Satan. :evil: Most anything else you can attach - don't.

This means the BEST and MOST RELIABLE home defense shotgun ISN'T what is pushed on the marketplace, by your friends, or those who sound knowledgeable just because they can talk jargon about a dozen obscure parts offered in the latest gun nerd magazine.

WHAT YOU NEED: a factory wood stocked 20" 12 or 20ga. Buy a plain good used one, shorten the barrel to 20", don't choke it at all, and leave it alone. Just use it monthly on the range and get used to it. Shoot comfortable slugs, light loads, and have fun. DON'T make it a macho contest to see who can handle the biggest loads. Find out what is for you, and it, the most effective and accurate load AT 20 FEET when you are half asleep and on an adrenaline rush.

No grips, rails, slings, lights, lasers, or speed loaders can or will make you better until you are experienced enough to even know what they can actually add for you, if anything. Don't fall for all the marketing hype, learn what is actually effective.

[hags]

Yep, I have a Marlin Model 60G--------.410 single shot, bolt action shotgun.
If I was to make a mess of anyone in my house with it, it would dissappear into evidence and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

The Benellis and LMTs wouldn't be going anywhere unless a whole bunch of people were in my house.

[Dimis]

one of my favorite HD guns is a youth model 870 20Ga

[Bailey Boat]

MY years of experience in making HD shotguns for friends is "less is more".... The fewer the gadgets and gizmo's the better. I begin with a box stock 870 Express, usually in 12 ga with either synthetic or wood stocks, doesn't matter either way. First I add a 3 shot extension and cut the barrel 3/4 to 1" longer than the extension and add a Tru Glo Tru-Point front sight (it at least gives some point of reference) Then I add a light with a coil corded switch attached to the forearm (left or right side according to the intended owner) and regulate the light to point of aim at 25'. Now the shot goes into the middle of the light beam for refrence. I then replace the mag follower with an aluminum unit to prevent binding. I'll clean and PROPERLY lube the trigger group, reassemble everything, take at least 8 to 10 boxes of whatever ammo I happen to have, go to the range and begin it's break-in procedure.

A single bobble and it's back to the shop doesn't matter what the bobble was. Once I'm satisfied (more or less) of it's dependability I turn it over to the new owner and accompany them to my range with another 8 to 10 boxes of ammo and show them how to use it. I stress monthly practice at a minimum and I mean MEANINGFUL practice not just throwing lead downrange.

Back to the subject, You're right, too much crap and not enough useful things are added to most HD guns......

[SN13]

I agree with KISS when it comes to HD.

[Hungry Seagull]

Wife actually prefers iron sights on her Mossy 500, there are two on her gun. One front and one mid. Sufficient for her to make corrections and put next one on target.

Ive learned a few things myself along the way as well.

I dont know about the amount of money spent, but I can count the amount of stuff that failed at the range and were thrown away.

I rather it fail and break at the range, fall off and break or whatever than under a actual break in that is being fired on.

That is why I very strongly advocate regular monthly range visists at a minimum. It proves that all of your weapons are working well and that there are either NO problems or problems will be found and addressed.

Prior to the real life actual no *&^% invasion or burglar.

[Tirod]

Bailey has some good points - and an experienced user could certainly handle the three shot extension and light.

Being able to identify the target ranks very high on safety and tactics when propelling lead in a family situation. For beginners, it may be too much - they should get the the fundamentals of handling down first before adding additional steps.

Basic Training follows the concept by issuing the M16 and the soldier keeping it in their possession 24/7 - in the barracks, during training, at chow, etc. It's a compressed situation to force good gun handling habits, security, teamwork, and simple courtesy - which is a little harder to pull off at home. Nonetheless, on "gun days," it wouldn't hurt to have a dedicated window where you have to deal with it continuously, a time period long enough to get comfortable with proper habits and ingrain them.

That said, most don't get it, if the volume of ads for pistol grips, three rail handguards, and folding stocks is any indication. That tac-junk has been lathered on shotguns for 25 years or more now, and it's not getting better.

[FLNT4EVR]

the NEF Pardner Protector fills the HD requirements nicely.A Rem 870 knock off,18 1/2 in cilinder choke barrel,2 3/4 -3 inch chamber and handles slugs and buckshot equally well. holds 5 ,3inch or 6, 2 3/4 shells,and all for a price tag under $200. whats not to like.

[SHusky57]

The only useful additions I could see on the "tacticool" shotguns could be....

1. Light - power goes out in a Katrina event; stuff happens at night need to ID what's making the noise. Of course, you could just put a flashlight beneath a SxS or spend $100 on a tacti-cool light.
2. Side saddle - I guess it never hurts to have extra ammo ready to go.
3. Collapsible stocks - makes it easier to store....?

So they aren't all useless, especially if one has the fundamentals down.

With that said, I'm still wondering what I could get for my Benelli M1 S90 on a trade-in/sell. Most people say it's the "uber-elite tactical shotgun" but uh.... it sits in my gun safe. I would much rather have a SxS coach gun than the uber-tacticool Benelli. Can I put 6 rounds on target in less than a second with the SxS? No. Can I safely and effectively use the Coach gun if I was half-awake and losing fine motor skills? Moreso than the Benelli.

[earlthegoat2]

Id be willing to bet every Gecko45 here is going to chime in how this one gadget is useful until this thread turns into another who can put the most crap on his shotgun contest.

The basic shotgun is all you ever will need. Plain stock, plain barrel, no mag extensions, no side saddles, no optics, no PGOs, no full pistol grip stocks, no speed feeds, and here comes the controversy: no short barrel (granted sometimes it is a practical necessity being what the market is right now)

[arizona98tj]

I have to ask....why would having a standard length barrel on a shotgun be of a benefit if you decide to deploy it in the middle of the night in your house?

Since I can pick the barrel length when I purchase the shotgun, why would I select one for ducks or geese when I intend to hunt neither?

[earlthegoat2]

no short barrel (granted sometimes it is a practical necessity being what the market is right now)

The point of this statement is not to say the shorter barrel is not better for home defense. It is just not as necessary as everyone wants to believe.

In other words I dont think you need two barrels for your shotgun to be able to do double duty as a defense gun and a hunting gun.

Since I can pick the barrel length when I purchase the shotgun, why would I select one for ducks or geese when I intend to hunt neither?

(granted sometimes it is a practical necessity being what the market is right now)

If you are going to buy a shotgun for home defense you are left only with 20" or less. Hence the use of the above statement.

[arizona98tj]

Thanks for clarifying that. Much appreciated.

I have an old 20 gauge pump from my early days as a kid growing up on the farm that I still retain for anything field hunting related.

I have a 12 gauge pump with a much shorter barrel for HD use. I tried some hallway work with a field shotgun and couldn't find an easy method by which to make a corner or check a bathroom without telegraphing my presence with the longer barrel. I'm rather short and so there is a reasonable limit as to just how low I can point the muzzle at the ground and not have it sticking out quite a ways. (I hope that makes sense.)

[shiftyer1]

I totally disagree. A shorter barrel is a big plus for hd. Necesary no but I don't want to be goin thru the house with a long barrel. Sometimes convieniance is worth it.

[Hollywood Marine]

My HD gun is a plain jane model twelve with factory stock and barrel cut to 24 inches. I didn't build it, it came that way and is more than sufficient to the mission. And I don't need no stinking lights or lasers, and if five rounds of 00 aint enough, I guess I'll have to get a machine gun.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Amen, brothers!!!

[Tirod]

The shorter barrel not only has the benefit of better manueverability in a constricted space, it has less barrel length exposed to grab.

Barrel length is primarily for increased shot load speed, and it's a game of diminishing returns when factored in with weight - longer barrels are heavier. It's not always best to have the biggest you can get when the wife or teenage son is the one using it.

Size a HD shotgun for the family - not just for one user.

Extra ammo is nice - but - most defense scenarios on record don't support the idea, as their are very few discharges. Three shots fired is high. If you really "need" more ammo, forearm sleeves are an alternative. This begs the question, how many actually practice reloads, or would have the prescence of mind to do that during a gunfight? Again, most homeowners don't make the effort to really get familiar or take range time to maximize muscle memory.

Options, accessories, and bolt-ons are more often eye bling than really helpful - they do more for the ego than assist in a confrontation where basic gun handling skills are lame and unpracticed to start.

If we can't successfully drive, shave and text on the freeway, why do we think we can do as much in a live firefight with a shotgun equipped with laser, white light, and trigger?

From what I've seen working retail, that's asking a lot of the public.

[earlthegoat2]

Stop working on the hardware so often and spend that time and money on the software. Then you will have money well spent.

[intheburbs]

My bedroom gun is a Mossberg 500 "camper's combo" 20-gauge that I bought from Service Merchandise in 1991. No bells or whistles, just KISS goodness. Got the lower-recoil 20-gauge for my wife - 5' 2" 110 lbs. If we're ever in a situation where we need more than 5 rounds from a shotgun, well, that's what the AR is for.

[chuckusaret]

I have a Mossberg 500 Persuader 12 ga 20" barrel with only a pistol gripe (no butt stock) for HD. I have run many practice home invasion sessions with my family. The short (30") weapon is far better for use within my house than my standard shotguns. This might be right for my house but not your house. I have all the after market stuff for it but only a few of the items make the gun better for HD. I have the receiver shot saddle and the shot follower installed and had the barrel ported. I wasted my money on: pistol gripe fore end, ghost sights, sling and laser/flashlight. It is best to Kiss or SIR (Simple is right).

[Tirod]

Just picking on the usefulness of a sling: Generally, why do deer rifles come equipped and expect you to use a sling, and shotguns are unequipped?

Use of the deer rifle on the move stalking is still reportedly 30-40% - just like field hunting with shotgun, where it's considered an impediment to rapid shouldering or carry.

If it's awkward for a shotgun, it's awkward for a rifle.

What we've seen over the years is the adoption of assault rifle attachments to a completely different type of weapon as if they share identical application. A military combat rifle in a varmint caliber has many other requirements to fulfill - and not all were such a good idea to begin with for civilian application.

Was the application of a pistol grip to the Stg 44 a result of the straight line engineering of the bolt, or truly superior handling?

I've been taught pistol grips raised the sight line in combat, exposed the shooter in incoming fire, and complicated errors in aiming. I have experienced more difficulty in switching grip from the small of the stock to the grip in tactical movement, such as drop and roll.

I think it's simply copying something that looked cool without understanding the full impact on the entire use of the weapon. I see the same thinking in hotrodding. Lots of folks buy 20" bling rims, but miss the point - it was to use huge racing brakes that forced the rim change.

We bolt on the bling, but never understand the reason behind it, and why it may even have a negative effect.

[kevbo]

Slings on rifles vs. shotguns, what leaps to mind:

A high powered rifle typically weighs a bit more than a shotgun. The larger bore of a shotgun replaces a lot of steel with air. At the end of a long day of hunting a pound or three makes a huge difference.

"Snap" shooting at big game is not commonly required. Taking a quick shot is asking for a wounded animal, a long day of tracking, and a lot of ruined meat. The game is typically spotted tens of seconds if not minutes before the shot is taken. On two occasions I have jumped a deer at close quarters, in neither case was the rifle slung, and in neither case did I have time to take a shot before the deer dissapeared into the brush. Snap shooting is very common in upland hunting. Quail, rabbits, grouse, etc. will be well out of range by the time you could unsling a shotgun.

Military style slings can be used to help steady the hold on a rifle, by looping around the off elbow. If carried in a certain way, a rifle can quickly be unslung into this configuration.

It is pretty common to need to hike a long way to get to where big game lives. Also this may involve steep terrain, and having hands free to catch yourself if you stumble is an advantage. It is also common to hike into position before dawn, and hike out in the dark. No point in keeping the rifle at the ready outside of leagle hunting hours. This might apply to turkey hunting with a shotgun, and thus turkey shotguns are often equipped with slings.

[RedAlert]

One aspect of a HD shotgun not touched on here is the aftermath of a home invasion shooting.

We live in a society where a civil lawsuit is almost an expected event anytime there has been a civilian involved shooting. You can be in your home, some BG breaks in and threatens you or your family. You shoot the BG. Righteous shoot. No Criminal action by the Prosecutor's office.

Bam! You are slapped with a civil suit by the Mama of the BG. You killed her precious innocent child. Amazingly enough, this goes to trial and you are being judged by a hand-picked jury of peers. How many pro-gun folks do you think the prosecuting attorney will let stay on the jury during the selection process? Not many, if any.

During the presentation of evidence will be your shotgun. The weapon used in the home invasion killing. Which will be the one to present your image as a frightened homeowner protecting the lives of his family. Your box-stock hunting shotgun, or the all black tactical shotgun. Which one will bring up the image of "Granddad's ole hunting gun hanging over the mantle?" The nice wood stocked shiny blue shotgun? Or maybe the all black one with lights and lasers just like the ones the SWAT teams carry?

This may sound a little fanciful; but, I bet it is all too real. Just ask Mr. OJ about civil court following an acquittal in Criminal Court. I only mention OJ because it was a well known case.

Ralph

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Only fancy shmancy thing I have on my shotgun is a CompStock.


Oh, well... that and a $3 nylon buttcuff that holds 5 shells.

That, however, is a no-brainer.

[Yo Mama]

Just ask Mr. OJ about civil court following an acquittal in Criminal Court. I only mention OJ because it was a well known case.


Did you mention he was also a well known killer. Doesn't matter what weapon he used, he killed 2 people.


OP appears that answers have focused on useful doodads. Sling, shell carrier, lights, oh my!

Bailey Boat, I'd love to see some pictures of some of those shotguns you made. Sound beautiful.

[Larry Ashcraft]

I have shotguns of just about every configuration, but the one I would grab in a HD situation would be my Citori.

Why? Because I've used that gun for over 25 years for hunting and clay pigeons. I'm familiar with it and I don't have to remember where the controls are. I always shoot clays from low ready, so the gun comes instantly into position when I need it to.

My other shotguns are toys or teaching tools, but my Citori is my working shotgun.

[jakemccoy]

I agree with the original poster. However, I'm not mad at fellow gun owners that want to trick out their gun - to each, his own.

Here's my home defense rig:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2gx4r9j.jpg

[-v-]

Folding stocks: My shotgun doubles as my "truck gun" where it sits in a nice compartment that is out of view. Were it not for the folding stock, I would not be able to fit it there, thus as a space-saving measure, a folding stock makes perfect sense. Speaking of which, seems that that's the original reason (and adjustable LOP) that folding and telescoping stocks were created...

[Tirod]

Kevbo makes a good point about sling use - we're not walking long distance thru the house - and we could be snap shooting an already identified assailant we're pursuing.

In the day, shotgun sling bandoliers sold like hotcakes - and were as quickly discarded after the first use. Having 12 more rounds on one really exaggerates the difficulties in handling and weight changes, much less the awkwardness of reloads. Although the degree of difficulty may be less, other methods of ammo carry outside the reciever of the gun suffer the same problems.

Folding stocks are for just that - to make it easier to store in a limited space. Use of the gun without it extended is generally discouraged, as plenty of militaries world wide who used weapons in the short mode found soldiers were more inaccurate, and tended to point the muzzle at various parts of their body when in combat. If Murphy can get you to shoot yourself, he will.

As for adjustable stocks, the use of body armor and the need for different lengths of pull to accomodate is well known and in use today - but the average homeowner doesn't have any. I'd venture to guess the number of shotguns in civilian hands with adjustable stocks and no accompanying armor is about 99%. Most of us don't sleep in it (I have,) don't own it, and don't need it, so why entertain the expense when it's basically useless?

It's about ego, not common sense.

[V45C]

plain OOTB m-500 with standoff and synthetic furniture , thats it , nothing else...

[scottishclaymore]

It's always a good idea not to get yourself killed for lack of shooting back.

This I think is the essence of gunfighting. I like the way you phrased that, Walter, and if you don't mind I am going to use it again.

A word about doodads. My previous occupation took me into some unpleasant neighborhoods. One evening I found myself faced by six armed gangbangers. By the mercy of God I had a 12 ga. Mossberg Maverick with a topfolding stock and a 7-round magazine tube, with an additional round in the chamber, in my equipment bag. I promptly produced the same and since I had apparently brought the only firearm to the party, the bangers decided there were easier pickings elsewhere. I got in my car and drove away. Nobody got shot, nobody got hurt.

Of course the fact that it even happened was a lack of situational awareness on my part -- something I have been working to rectify ever since.

I share that story to say this: here was at least one case where a folding stock came in handy, so they are not altogether bad.

I didn't have to shoot anybody, but if it had really come down to a fight having 8 rounds to spread amongst 6 bad guys could have been handy. Reloads on the gun would have worked almost as well.

I work a much safer job now and I carry a revolver as it is more portable than the shotgun. Still, I have a distinct fondness for that ugly little shotgun.

[jakemccoy]

There's more to a short barrel than just being able to move it around better. It also gives you a wider distribution of your shot. It can mean as much as a foot inside of a house between using a 18" barrel and a 28" barrel.

Did you actually pattern your guns and find this?

My 18" IC choke patterns similarly to my 28" IC choke and my 20" IC choke. For me, shot distribution is determined mostly by the choke, not by the barrel length.

[cchris]

This is unnecessary. (http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/50591.jpg)

I mean, does that "muzzle brake" really do much?

[seanie!]

I agree with everything but the light. If I'm going to be woken up at 3am by the sounds of something going bump in the night, I'm going to want to know what it is if I'm pointing a loaded firearm it it. Just my opinion though.

[jakemccoy]

The whole point of a longer barrel is to keep the shot pattern tighter for a longer distance...
But as a general rule longer barrels do keep patterns tighter. That's the main reason they make barrels in different lengths.

I would like for you to please start a new thread to discuss this topic about barrel length.

I'm going with the primary point of a longer barrel is for smoother swinging when shooting clays.

[ScareyH22A]

On my 20" 870 Express-
I added a Burris Speed Bead holographic sight and found that ...
you don't need a rail or a gunsmith to install this.
it is brighter than night sights.
my friend and I both shoot clay pigeons better to the point where it feels like we're cheating.
it's like a laser without giving away your position and like a laser, if your head isn't straight down the barrel, where ever the red dot is, the lead goes.
it has a 5 year battery life so I just leave it on.
after many many shots of 00 buck and slugs, it holds zero flawlessly.
I can POA for closer HD distance than the bead itself.
if the light fails, I still have the bead.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I agree to some extent, but I disagree that a PG is not an enhancement to ergonomics. It is. That's one reason why AR15s and many other similarly-gripped rifles are incredibly popular and ubiquitous - their outstanding ergos. I'm not talking PGO, but PG with buttstock.

But certainly, magnum is not needed. That's why "downloaded" weaker 2.75" loads (or even super short 2.5" loads) are the most popular "tactical" type loads for self defense / home defense / CQB. 20 ga ain't a scrunthair worth of difference either for self-defense purposes, so you're right about that, too.