[valnar]

I've got a handle on handguns, but don't know where to start with rifles. At this point in time I have no purpose in buying one, not plinking, not hunting. I'm just trying to educate myself.

Can anyone list the most common cartridge types "in order" so to speak of power? The list of cartridges as I peruse ammunition sites is quite large. I'm sure some are speciality, rare or obsolete. But some are the regular mainstream rounds.

Which are those?

Sorry for the "dumb" question. :confused:

-Robert

[dakotasin]

there are so many cartridges that you are asking quite a bit... here's a brief overview of what the most common cartridges are. for sure, i will miss many, but these are common for each bore size...

.224: 222, 223 rem, 22-250, and 220 swift.

.243: 243 win, 6mm rem

.257: 257 roberts, 25-06

.264: 260 rem, 6.5 swede, 264 win mag

.277: 270 win

.284: 7-08, 284 win, 7 saum, 7 wsm, 7 rem mag, 7 stw, 7 rum

.308: 30-30, 308 win, 30-06, 300 saum, 300 wsm, 300 win mag

.323: 8x57, 8 rem mag

.338: 338 win mag, 338 rum

anything beyond this is likely well beyond the scope of what you'd be looking for. there are many, many holes in the list, but the list has the basics. as far as power rankings, generally as you increase bullet diameter, you increase power (many exceptions). as you move right in each bullet diameter, you increase power (eg in the 257, the 25-06 has more power than the 257 roberts).

[Ohen Cepel]

There are so many out there I will never be able to keep them all straight.

I have an excellent book "Cartridges of the World" that I refer to often. It will answer most if not all of your questions.

[valnar]

dakotasin, Those are all considered common? Wow.

I was looking at Marlin lever actions specifically (in addition to others).

Where does the .45/70 and .22 Winchester Magnum fall?

-Robert

[Sisco]

Where does the .45/70 and .22 Winchester Magnum fall

Opposite ends of the spectrum.
.22 mag is good for hunting squirrels, 45/70 will take down a buffalo.

Did a Google image search, didn't come up with much that would show a side-by-side comparison of different calibers but here's one
http://www.estatecartridge.com/html/rifle.htm

[ny32182]

There are many, many, MANY more "common" rifle loads than there are common handgun loads. Rifle rounds carry velocity and energy levels that handguns simply can't touch. Keep in mind that the .223, used by the military, is considered "weak" by rifle cartridge standards. Even so, a 55 grain standard ball load reaches 3100-3200+ fps and carries over 1200 lb-ft of energy. The right .223 load will penetrate a 1/4" steel plate from 500 yards away.

Valnar, what do you want to do with your rifle?

[valnar]

Valnar, what do you want to do with your rifle?

Absolutely nothing yet. I really don't have a reason to get one at all. Just gettin' edjumacated.

I've been reading a lot of posts, as I should have before i posted myself, and am slowly getting the gist of it.....

-Robert

[Aleko]

You don't need to have a reason to get one. I know I didn't (still don't) have a reason for a rifle, I just woke up one morning and decided I wanted one. :) I liked the looks and a "cool" factor of AR, so I started asking dumb questions to learn more about them and shortly after bought my first AR. It’s fun to shoot and “play around” with (as in accessorizing it).

[4v50 Gary]

Most common are those akin to the military usage including:

1) 30-06 - used in the 1903 Springfield and the M-1 Garand
2) 7.62 mm Nato and its civilian counterpart the .308 Winchester. Used in the M-14 (M-1A Springfield as the civilian counterpart is sometimes called), FN-FAL, HK-91/CETME.
3) 7.62x39 mm - Russian bullet for the AK series & SKS rifle
4) 45-70 - Developed by our military after the Civil War. Popular for lever action guns like the Marlin Guide Gun.
5) .303 Enfield - readily available rimmed cartridge popular also because of the surplus of Enfield rilfes
6) 8 mm Mauser - or 7.92 mm Mauser. For the German Mauser 98 and its derivatives
7) 7.62 x 54 mm Russian - for all the surplus Moisin Nagant that have entered this country and the Dragunov sniper rifles.
8) 5.56 mm Nato (and the .223 Winchester) - fodder for the AR-15 family of weapons and perhaps one of the most popular cartridges today.

Non-military include:

9) 22 LR - can't forget America's favorite and most affordable plinker round
10) 30-30 Winchester - bottleneck & rimmed cartridge, it probably has killed more deer than any other cartridge.

[ny32182]

Well, to simplify even further: The two "standard" calibers are .22 and .30. Anything above that is considered to be quite large. There are different chamberings that produce vastly different power levels.

In .22 caliber, you have .22LR, .22mag, .223rem/5.56NATO/5.56x45.

In .30 caliber, you have .30/.30 win, .30-06, 7.62x39, .308win/7.62NATO/7.62x54.

The .270win is also a very common deer round even though its never been adopted by the military to my knowledge.

The above are the MOST common rifle rounds; ones that you are absolutely guaranteed to be able to buy anywhere. Might want to start with those.

[Kaylee]

well, if the purpose is just plinking, and you want a lever gun, and you're mostly a handgun guy anyway.... why not just get a pistol caliber carbine? There's .357/.38, .44, and .45 Colt versions out there that I know of.

Not only can you share ammo back and forth with a handgun, you're also halfway to playing with the cowboy guys. :)

-K

[valnar]

Those last few replies were *extremely* helpful.

Is there a difference between the .223rem and .223winchester?

How do the ballistics of a .357Mag or .44Mag from a Marlin lever action compare to a .223 (either one)?

Thanks!
Robert

[Mike Irwin]

What you're seeing on the ammo sites is simply the tip of the iceberg...

With foreign cartridges (that US companies don't load, but for which you'll still find guns), proprietary cartridges, wildcats, obsolete rounds, etc., it's not inconceivable that the list of rifle cartridges runs to 5,000 or more.

[DougCxx]

---Perhaps it would help if you listed the country you reside in: if you are looking for a plinking gun, then one important factor is to be able to find cheap ammo.
~

[SDC]

The difference between the .223 and the .357/.44 is effective range; the .223 Rem is a high-velocity rifle round good for varmints, etc. out past 300 yards or so, depending on the rifle, but the .357 and .44 are handgun cartridges that just happen to be available in a rifle, with an effective range out to maybe 100-150 yards. Yours is a real "chicken and egg" question, because it helps to know what you're planning on using it for before you narrow it down to a specific cartridge.

[hksw]

If you can, try to get a copy of Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes. It will have a comprehensive list and short description of past/present, obsolete/current cartridges. These will include rifle, handgun, and shotgun ammo.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0873496051/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-3600474-1283852#reader-link

[valnar]

because it helps to know what you're planning on using it for before you narrow it down to a specific cartridge.

Hmmm. Without a good answer, I will say from plinking to self-defense. Killing bears or elks are not a priority, but stopping a human would be the only real use of one, not that I have anything planned along those lines!
:eek:

-robert

[Mike Irwin]

Cartridges of the World is a great reference, but it's simply not comprehensive.

I really don't think any work on cartridges could be comprehensive.

[ny32182]

Hmmm. Without a good answer, I will say from plinking to self-defense. Killing bears or elks are not a priority, but stopping a human would be the only real use of one, not that I have anything planned along those lines!


I use my rifles for the same thing.

The two best rifle rounds for these purposes are the .223/5.56mm and the 7.62x39, fired from the AR and the AK, respectively.

Both rounds are CHEAP compared to other rifle rounds (for deer hunting, etc), and both are much more effective than pistol rounds, especially from any distance away. Both are fired from lightweight, high capacity military proven platforms.

People will debate the AR vs AK until the end of time. Suffice it to say that both are excellent guns. The AR is much more accurate and a bit more effective at longer range, is lighter, and more ergonomic. The AK is more effective at close range and is generally more reliable under extreme adverse conditions.

Anyway. You've opened a can of worms. Good luck.:D

[valnar]

4V50 Gary and ttbadboy gave answers more to what I was seeking.
So I guess a better question would be:

What are the top 10 calibers and their relative power rankings, common availability in the USA and cost?

I'm not a naturalist or survivalist by any stretch of the imagination (I live in a vinylville in a suburb), but if I wanted to have a couple a rifles "just to have", what tops the list?

At that point, when I find a use for them, I'll go buy more. To give you an idea, when I bought my first handgun 5 years ago, it was a 9mm. After I shot that for a few years, I've come to realize .38sp/.357Mag is my favorite caliber (moving from semi-autos to revolvers as you can surmise.) :D
I don't really have a need for those either, but that's another story.

-Robert

[Black Snowman]

Likely your longest, close, rifle range is going to be 100 yards, 200 at the most. The choices I'd recommend, in order of power, are

.22 LR (cheapest ammo, not recommended for defense)
.223 Rem / 5.56 NATO (inexpensive to premium ammo available reansably priced, best bet for home defense, good on people, doesn't go through walls well)
7.62x39 Russian (cheapest, big enough to take small-medium game, least expensive guns)
.308 (lots of ammo choices from cheap to premium. Too much penetration for urban defense, big enough to take about any animal in the US.)

If I was going to only have 1 rifle it would be a semi-auto .223 for combination of fun, cost-effectiveness, target, and still be viable for home defense.

[98G]

**4V50 Gary and ttbadboy gave answers more to what I was seeking.
So I guess a better question would be:

What are the top 10 calibers and their relative power rankings, common availability in the USA and cost?

I'm not a naturalist or survivalist by any stretch of the imagination (I live in a vinylville in a suburb), but if I wanted to have a couple a rifles "just to have", what tops the list?

-Robert**

6 Calibers: 5.56X45 which is essentially identical to .223 Remington, 7.62X51 which is essentially identical to .308, 30.06, .243, 30/30, and 7.62X39. Of these, all are military loads except for .243 and 30/30.

If you want a good rifle, look no further than the AR series. I personally prefer the Bushmaster and Armalite products. Excellent ergonomics, easy to shoot with low recoil and good range and power. Everyone should own one. This is the centerfire rifle to start with. Later you'll want an AK in 7.62X39 and also an M1A or M14(7.62X51) but the AR is the one to start on. Standard 20" barrel and standard A2 sights. Rounds are about $0.15 each.

98G

[Sisco]

Here's something else to think about; ammo availability.
.22LR, .22mag, .223, 30/30, .243, .270, 30.06 are available just about anywhere ammo is sold.
I personally like 25.06 for deer, shoot .30 cabine and .22 Hornet for varmits and fun but you probably can't find ammo for them at WallMart.

[valnar]

I still am on the fence from an earlier thread about getting a Marlin levergun for plinking too.

Question for y'all.

Out to 100 yards, how is the .44Mag from a rifle barrel? How about .357Mag? Does it compare in power to any rifle caliber at short ranges?

-Robert

[Dave R]

Valnar...yes, the .44mag at 100 yards is generally considered "good for Deer Hunting". The .357 Mag is considered light-to-marginal for deer hunting.

Another way to look at your original question is, what rifle cartridges sell the most?

This is not scientific, but my hunch is that the following centerfire rifle cartridges sell the most:

-.30-30
-.223
-.30-06
-.308

The 7.62 X 39 also sells pretty well, but only shoots in AKs, SKS's and a very few bolt-action rifles (notably CZ).

The cheapest of those listed for off-the-shelf cartridges are probably .223 and .308. .223 has less recoil, and that's what I'd start with if I were starting again.

OTOH, if you go with .44mag in a lever gun, no one could say you made a bad choice.

[dakotasin]

my big thing is accuracy/precision shooting (which covers my varminting and hunting), so i'll let others answer your questions concerning ar/ak's and that stuff...

i just wanted to say that don't get locked into thinking that rifles begin and end w/ ar's and ak's... i really don't like auto-loading rifles. most of my rifles are bolts (like rem 700's, win 70's), and levers...

out to 100 yards, a marlin lever gun in 357 or 44 mag is a fun, effective rifle... however, i'd advise that you stick w/ rifle cartridges for rifles - and if you are really hung up on levers, it is awfully tough to beat the 30-30. cheap to shoot, more power than either the 357 or 44 mag at range, and recoil is tolerable by anyone.

[ReadyontheRight]

If you are looking for a rifle to just get into rifles, I suggest something in .22lr, .223, 7.62x39 or .308 (listed in ascending order of "power").

You can get inexpensive ammo in all these calibers and plink away.

.22lr and 7.62x39 offer the added bonus of inexpensive, quality rifles available (Romanian trainers, Ruger 10/22, Marlin, Winchester, Remington .22s, SKS, SAR1...)

The .22lr or .223 will not be useful to you if you plan to ever hunt any kind of large game.

If you want to start with one rifle and are not all that concerned about ammo cost, I suggest a $500 M1 Garand from www.odcmp.com and Korean surplus 30-06 ammo at ~$80/400 rounds. With a Garand, you can shoot in high power rifle competitions, hunt (with the right ammo) and nearly always draw interest at the range.

No offense intended at all, and pistol caliber rifles are definitely cool, but not really what I would consider a "rifle".

[labgrade]

Other than your "possible defense" comment, I'd suggest almost any in .22 long rifle cartridge. Under $10/500 rounds & everybody should have at least one.

Great excuse to eventually buy any handgun in the same caliber & there's many, many excellent examples of these as well.

.22 LR is plenty fun too 100 yards, inexpensive to shoot all day, can be had in very accurate platforms, all but zero for recoil & an excellent way to develop your rifke skills.

You can always work up from there.

[Futo Inu]

I'm no expert, but as a stab in the dark, I'd first divide between what I'll call "hunters" and what I'll call "other shooters", with the latter being people who may be hunters but also military rifle collecters, or more enthusiastic about range sessions & accuracy, or handloaders, or handgunners, or those with police/military background and interest - basically, anyone with an interest in guns above and beyond the average guy on the street.

For Hunters (aka joe sixpack), I'd imagine the list of most popular "sporting" calibers would be something like:

1. .22 long rifle / .22 short / .22 long
2. 30-'06 Spfld
3. .30-30 Win
4. .270 Win
5. .243 Win
6. .223 Rem
7. .308 Win
8. 25 - '06
9. .22 mag
10. 7.62 x 39 Russ
11. .22 Hornet
12. .257 Roberts

I'm sure I'm missing a few.

For other shooters, it's really hard to say, and it depends on the discipline / interest of the shooter, but general it will involve more non-standard and nearly-wildcat status rounds, rounds above .30 caliber, and more military surplus cartridges (after all, shooters like to shoot, and shooting is cheaper if the ammo is cheaper, like with military calibers). One might guess all of the 12 listed above, but put .308 much higher on the list (say, 3rd), and add the following pretty popular cartridges:

13. .280 Rem
14. .22 - 250
15. 8mm Mauser
16. .250-3000 Savage
17. 7x57 Mauser
18. .300 Win Mag
19. .338 Win Mag
20. .375 H&H Mag
21. 6.5 x 55 Swede
22. 5.45 x 39 Russ
23. .35 Rem
24. .45-70 Gov't
25. 7mm Rem Mag (this should be much higher up)
26. 7mm-08
27. .260 Rem
28. .35 Whelen
29. 8mm-'06
30. .220 Swift
31. .284 Rem
32. .303 Brit
33. .222 Rem
34. .222 Rem Mag
35. 6.5 Rem Mag
36. .30 Carbine
37. 7.62 x 54R Russ (belongs higher up on list)

many others. Sure I've missed a few popular ones yet.

Then there's all the benchrest / Contender type cartridges:
.22 PPC
6mm PPC
6.5mm BR
7mm BR
.300 Whisper
.357 maximum and others based on long pistol cartridges

And all the big bores:
-other .375s, like .376 Steyr
.416 Rem Mag
.458 Win Mag
.500 and other Nitros and double rifle rounds

And all the super magnums & relative new short magnums:
-the Rem ultra mags (7mm, .300, .338??)
-Winchester short mags (7mm, .300, .223, ??)

And all the specialty/proprietary magnum cartridges:
-Weatherby's and Dakota's magnums in nearly all calibers - the Weatherbys are pretty popular among the average sportsman with magnum-itis.
Norma has a couple magnum rounds, too.

[valnar]

That would be a lot of different rifles, no?
Or do some of those calibers share the same rifle platforms?

Another question would be, which of those rifle calibers are the most common and not considered Wildcats? Just the first list?

(Excellent post by the way. Wow.)

-Robert

[SDC]

Out of Futo's list, there are probably six that are the most common (most of them simply because they are/were military cartridges, and there's a source for surplus), and they break down into three basic power/range groups:

1) .22 Long Rifle (short-range: good for plinking, small game, and some varmint control; maybe even for self-defense in a pinch)

2) .223 Rem/7.62x39mm/.30-30 (medium range; again, good for plinking, varminting, self-defense, some hunting)

3) .308/.30-06 (longer range, with more power; good for just about everything you'd care to use it for; the .30-06 has been used to hunt just about every game animal in the world).

Most people who get into shooting end up owning at least one rifle in each of these categories, so don't say I didn't warn you :D

[David4516]

"Another question would be, which of those rifle calibers are the most common and not considered Wildcats?"

Here is my list of what I think of as "common" calibers (smaller to larger, based on bullet diameter):

Rimfire:

.22LR: Best anit-popcan round ever. 30 gr bullet at about 1100 FPS

.22 WMR (aka .22 Mag): Very similar to the .22LR, but the case is much longer, so you get a signifigant boost in velocity. This is a good caliber for taking out little fuzzy things at 100 yards or so. 40 gr bullet at about 2000 FPS

Centerfire:

.223/5.56mm: This is what the M16/AR15 shoots. Too small for hunting most animals, but like the rimfire rounds, good for small fuzzy things. 55 gr bullet at about 3250 FPS

.243 Winchester: This caliber is based on the .308 winchester. It is about the smallest caliber I would consider for hunting deer. 80 gr bullet, 3300 FPS

.25-06: Another smaller caliber based on a large one. This is basicly a .30-06 with a smaller bullet. I hear it's a great deer round. 100 gr bullet at 3300 FPS

.270 Winchester: Also based on the .30-06, good deer caliber and can be used for elk as well. 130 gr bullet at 3100 FPS

7mm Remington Mag: Based on the .338 Wincheter Mag, this caliber is suposed to be a real "flat shooter". Should be good for just about any north american big game, except for bears. 160 gr bullet at 3000 FPS

.30-30 Winchester: One of the very first calibers to use smokeless powder. Also, along with .30-40 Krag, one of the first calibers to use the now VERY popular .308 inch diameter bullets. It was first chambered in the Winchester model 1894 Lever action rifle, and this combo is still very popular, over 100 years latter. 150 gr bullet at 2225 FPS

.308 Winchester/7.62mm Nato: Another millitary caliber, used in the M-14 and the M60. Many other calibers have been based on the .308, most notably the .243 Winchester. It is similar the .30-06 in preformance, but the case is much smaller, so it can be chambered in short action rifles. Good for shooting just about anything smaller than bear. 165 gr bullet at 2800 FPS

.30-06: VERY popular caliber, possibly the most common hunting caliber in the USA. It started out as a millitary round and was used in both world wars. In terms of ballistics, it is VERY similar to .308 Winchester, but can be loaded with heavy bullets, so it has a slight edge. 180 gr bullet at 2720 FPS

.300 Winchester Mag: One of the "most powerful" calibers to use the .308 diameter bullets. 180 gr bullet at 3050 FPS

7.62X39 Russian: This is the round that the AK and SKS shoot. In terms of power, it is similar to .30-30 Winchester. The bullet itself is slightly larger in diameter, it is .311 instead of .308

8mm Mauser: Another millitary round, this is what the germans used in both world wars. The bullet itself is .323 diameter. In terms of power it is similar to .30-06, 170 gr bullet at 2720 FPS

.338 Winchester Mag: Now we are getting into the really big calibers. You can kill almost anything with a .338 Winchester Mag. 225 gr bullet at 2940 FPS

.444 Marlin: Basicly a super sized .44 Mag for use in Rifles. 300 gr bullet at 2200 FPS

.45-70 Goverment: One of the oldest calibers still in use today. It started out as a black powder millitary round in the 1800's. It is a farily short range caliber, but shoots a very heavy bullet. 400 gr bullet at 1870 FPS

Sorry this post was so long...

[Mike Irwin]

"One of the oldest calibers still in use today..."

You know, when you get right down to it it is simply AMAZING that for all of the developments that have come along, including some of the new gee-whiz uberbang rounds, some very popular calibers are pushing a century or more old...

.45-70, .30-06, 6.5x55, 7mm and 8mm Mausers, .30-30 Win., .35 Remington, and others, are all either at or OVER the century mark.

[ksnecktieman]

I am surprised no one has said yet. If you are new, and want to buy a rifle, just one rifle,and do not know where or for what you will use it yet,,,,,,,... The 30.06 is the most versatile rifle round available. Over the counter, without reloading, you can buy ammunition from a 55 grain sabot projectile(accelerator), for long range varmints, to a 220 grain bullet suitable for elk. You can usually find an assortment of three or more loads in any walmart here in Kansas, and anyone, anywhere that sells ammunition will have at least one flavor of 30.06.
My last catalog from clearview investments lists military surplus 30.06 ammo for eight and a half cents per round if you just want to make noise and shoot targets that is a hard to beat price for any centerfire.

AND when you get yourself a gun safe? Always buy one for twice as many guns as you own, you will probably grow into it:)

[RustyHammer]

Price check, isle 5.

Cheapest I could find on Clearview Investments' website was 17.5 cents per and it's corrosive stuff. Danish will run you around 27 cents in bulk, IF you can even find it. (30.06 surplus is drying up fast.) There are cheaper shoots .....

That said, I love my M1 Garands (30.06 and .308's) !

[ksnecktieman]

sorry, I should have read the advertisement, instead of the headline.
The headline states "as low as 8 1/2 cents per round when purchased in package quantities".
The package includes ammo cans(2 in 50 cal size for 2.50 ea.) and stripper clips(96 for m1 garand at 59cents ea)and bandoliers(16 at 50 cents ea), 768 rounds(8 1/2 cents ea), and total is 134.95$
This is from the clearview flyer dated as "late fall 2003" issue.

Not a bait and switch, but a bit deceptive, I did not read the text because at present I do not own a 30.06

[TODD3465]

The comment about .30'06 surplus drying up fast reminded me of what I'm doing.
I reload, so every time I go to the public range I rummage through the "brass bucket" there and most of the time come home with 10 to 20 30'06 cases.
Funny thing is I don't own a .30'06 but by the time I get another Garand I'll have plenty of free brass to load up for it.;)

[twoblink]

First,

Let me give you some advice... There are evil men on this forum. EVIL. (Some evil women too!)

They will tell you "Well, for plinking, a .22LR can't be beat!"
then some will say ".223, versatile, and NATO... cheap to shoot..AR's look tactical"
Some will say, "308, NATO, good for huntin' too when a .223 really doesn't leave as much margain of error as you want"
Some will say "30-06, can 5 million + rifles and 50 million + rounds be wrong?"

then you will get it from the metric guys "7mm, 7's a lucky number"
"why go 7mm when 8mm is available?"

You will hear name dropping "257 Roberts.."
"xxx Weatherby"

What you will find out later is.. shoot, you need one in every single caliber, as everybody has their favorite calibers and will convince you, that you need one..

You will have started with a simple question, and soon, you will get Tamara-itus and start buying rifles in droves..

So stop reading this thread! It will make you lose money!!! The people on this board are EVIL.. I use to own 1 gun, now I own 10. It's not curable either!! RUN!! RUN AWAY!! Don't stare into the light!!

:evil: :neener:


BTW.. Might I recommend a 308? :D

[David4516]

"I use to own 1 gun, now I own 10."

Only 10? You need more :p