FBI "tripwire" program Targets Gun/Ammo buyers


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Jumping Frog
June 13, 2009, 05:01 PM
From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090613/ap_on_go_ot/us_lone_wolf_terrorists

When investigating a terrorist network, FBI agents can often access e-mails, phone records and documents to build a case. In some cases, they can develop informants to penetrate the group and provide intelligence.

But a killer acting alone rarely tells anyone what he's planning, let alone when or how. That makes it hard for authorities to determine who is prepared to commit a criminal act in furtherance of a perceived cause.

Trying to counter that threat, the FBI has created what it calls "tripwires." These are programs that seek tips from businesses whenever someone buys significant amounts of materials that can be used to make explosives, or large amounts of weapons or ammunition.

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama. The man, who relatives said suffers from mental illness, triggered a criminal investigation and he was eventually arrested.

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

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yokel
June 13, 2009, 05:32 PM
A bit unsettling, to say the least.

The Bureaucrat Elite love guns, and they own plenty of them. Unfortunately, they don't want anybody else to share the same benefits. Bureaucrats love telling everyone what to do and they have enormous influence. Bureaucrats desire control. Control = No Guns

FBI Reichsführer Müeller should be a kind of horrific preview of the kind of people we will all become if we continue to let our government treat us as though we were incapable of moral self-control.

everallm
June 13, 2009, 06:35 PM
And this is different from the ATF requirement to an FFL to notify them of bulk purchases of firearm how....?

If some crackpot muppet is buying bulk lots of hexamine, nitric acid, oleaic suphuric acid, nitromethane or Phosporus Pentasulphide (to name but 5 fun ingredients) I want someone to ask the question "Why....?"

ants
June 13, 2009, 07:42 PM
In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn. Oh, Puhleeez.

Crackpots like von Brunn don't even know a 'tripwire' exists. He used the rifle he could get.

ConstitutionCowboy
June 13, 2009, 09:21 PM
And this is different from the ATF requirement to an FFL to notify them of bulk purchases of firearm how....?

Is this illegal or something? ...To buy firearms "in bulk"?

If some crackpot muppet is buying bulk lots of hexamine, nitric acid, oleaic suphuric acid, nitromethane or Phosporus Pentasulphide (to name but 5 fun ingredients) I want someone to ask the question "Why....?"

Is this illegal as well? ...To buy these chemicals? Until whoever buys these or any other chemicals does something illegal with them, it's nobody's business but his.

It is my intention to buy about 10 Ruger LCPs as soon as I get the money together. The FBI and ATF will surely know about it when I do. What I do with them is none of their business unless I do something illegal with them. It's none of their business what I do with any of the MORE than 10 guns I already own unless I do something illegal with them.

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

Here it is, folks. The groundwork has been laid to lose the exception of all the old and black powder guns from needing background checks for purchase. They'll want to close the tripwire loophole now that there has been an incident that fell through that loophole.

I wonder who'll be the first to come to the plate with this...Will it be Schumer? Feinstein? The Brady Bunch? The ATF? Obama himself?

Woody

daorhgih
June 13, 2009, 11:12 PM
so here goes:
You don't have to be guilty to be convicted, anymore. 2d Amendment Foes Tighten Their Nooses. So Be forewarned, Gun-owner;
and do not kid ourselves, gentlemen. THEY WANT ALL OF OUR GUNS.
One small millimeter at a time "they" will demonize the gun, marginalize the gun-owner, and make their move "to make the nation safer for all Americans" by removing the threats ( that's "Us".) The real threat to "them" is the 2d amendment, NOT the gun it defends. The secondary threat to "them" is anyone who defends that amendment ( that's "Us") and owns a gun.
Whether it be the "Automatic" (a demonizing word) that was used to assassinate a doctor, or the pre-ban, unregulated auto-loader (another set of demon words) .22 cal. long-gun that assassinated the guard in D.C., "they" want them all, and "they" want us. Us; they want you, and me. Wise up. What are you prepared to do? At 0300 the knock on your door will not be a neighbor asking for a cup of flour.
When the hue-and-cry is "No guns for white supremacists", where will you be? Marginalized? When the hue-and-cry for "No guns for abortion opposers" heralds a new confiscation scheme, where will you stand? Marginalized a little bit more. It does not matter about how you really feel about those two particular causes, because the REAL, ROOT cause is "CONFISCATION": by any means.
The next major causal event will likely be closer to the bone in D.C. And very high up. Don't say you were not forewarned. "They" will choreograph any scenario in order to demonize the gun further. The handwriting has been on the wall for a long time. Did you read it? It's never been LESS about Bambi.

taprackbang
June 13, 2009, 11:16 PM
they (the FBI) can develop informants to penetrate the group and provide intelligence.

I happen to know one of these so-called informants. He spilled the beans to me and he knew what he was talking about. (I corroborated names.) He was just a 'little' too proud of himself; he bragged constantly about his 'moleness.'

What a dufous this guy was.

Neverwinter
June 13, 2009, 11:27 PM
Is this illegal or something? ...To buy firearms "in bulk"?
Obviously not, or people would have been arrested for it. Have there been any incidents of people being arrested for buying bulk firearms or ammo?


How is this any different from the $10,000 reporting requirement for bank transfers?

damien
June 13, 2009, 11:30 PM
Places like ammoman.com sell most of their ammo in 1000 round quantities. For them to report to this "tripwire" they would have to report almost every purchase. Anyone think they do that? I don't.

TheFallGuy
June 14, 2009, 12:10 AM
how much ammo is considered to be a large purchase? I buy up what I can get, 100-300 rounds at a time these days. But so do a lot of gun owners. I have bought 2000 rounds in one transaction before (this past January at a gun show) with raising eyebrows.

Are we talking about 10,000 rounds? 50,000?

I guess I don't see it as a big deal. Now if it is 100 rounds that is a different story. I have nothing to hide and I invite any government agent to look around all they want. I am not a criminal. I am not a terrorist. I am not a right wing extremist. I have been accused of all of those things by people that just don't understand me or my ways...

SHvar
June 14, 2009, 12:13 AM
You know years ago when I purchased my last car I paid in full with a check of over 20,000, it was reported to the FBI. When I put my downpayment on the house I bought, it was reported (over 30,000), and when I got the lone for the rest I had to sign an agreement that I wasnt supporting terrorism in any way and the FBI was notified of my financial activities.
Its almost a shame that you cant do so many normal things without the FBI being told about it.
Now its time to slowly reverse the rules, and intrusions that we now are limited by, and placed there by those who say they are keeping us safer (but they are keeping themselves safer only).

george29
June 14, 2009, 12:28 AM
Old hat stuff. FBI has always had certain tripwires in place, today, they are mainly on the computer. Google "How to build a suitcase nuke" and you just tripped a wire, I just might have tripped one right now, who knows, I personally don't care because I have nothing to hide and I'm not building or planning on building a nuke. There are old trip wires in libraries, gun shops, explosive outlets and probably a hundred other areas that I wouldn't have even thought of. I don't see how one can equate FBI tripwire with losing our rights. Maybe it's late, I'm mellow from a few beers and currently harbor no ill will on anyone. Maybe tomorrow I will be an AWM (angry white man) and write something different.

daorhgih
June 14, 2009, 12:59 AM
I searched for "tripwire" in the search column of this site and was given 2,278 citations in less than 0.007 seconds. HSA can do much better with their $12,000,000 computer nets. Computers are wunnnerful. Every conversation on THR or TFL, or ALL other sim. sites is continually monitored for buzz-words. I need not tell you what they are, but two of them are "assassinate", and "Obama/Biden." Guess why. HSA is always watching you. Ft. Mead and Indianapolis are the two headquarters for east of the Miss. Keep your nose clean. And buy bulk. Believe in yourself and never trust a lifer.

Double Naught Spy
June 14, 2009, 10:14 AM
In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.
Oh, Puhleeez.

Crackpots like von Brunn don't even know a 'tripwire' exists. He used the rifle he could get.

Right. This has NOTHING to do with von Brunn. He was a felon who had not had his rights restored. His purchase wasn't going to show up on any government computer in any form or fashion because he didn't make a legal purchase. He didn't need to buy tremendous amounts of ammo for the task either.

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama. The man, who relatives said suffers from mental illness, triggered a criminal investigation and he was eventually arrested.

It didn't work here either. He wasn't hunted because he purchased in bulk. He was hunted because he blabbed his intentions to a bank teller who reported the incident.

sernv99
June 14, 2009, 11:20 AM
You know years ago when I purchased my last car I paid in full with a check of over 20,000, it was reported to the FBI. When I put my downpayment on the house I bought, it was reported (over 30,000), and when I got the lone for the rest I had to sign an agreement that I wasnt supporting terrorism in any way and the FBI was notified of my financial activities.

IRS gets notified about big money transactions to catch folks money laundering and tax cheats. Where you get this idea that the FBI gets this info from the get-go is beyond me.

I happen to know one of these so-called informants. He spilled the beans to me and he knew what he was talking about. (I corroborated names that he dropped.) He was just a 'little' too proud of himself; he bragged constantly about his 'moleness.'

What a dufous this guy was.

let me guess, some informant also told you where Jimmy Hoffa's body is located too, huh?:rolleyes:

Marlin 45 carbine
June 14, 2009, 11:29 AM
yokel and daorhgih right much nail it on the head.

runrabbitrun
June 14, 2009, 12:03 PM
yokel and daorhgih right much nail it on the head.

I concur. :)

seanie!
June 14, 2009, 12:21 PM
Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama.
I think it probably had more to do with the fact that he told somebody that he was going to kill the president!

SHvar
June 14, 2009, 12:51 PM
How do I know that the FBI is informed, because its been done since 9/11, how do I know aside from that? The bank tells you ahead of time (at least they did), and you must sign a form notifying you of this. The IRS is but one organization that is informed of your financial activities, sometime they have to notify others about them when certain amounts are exceeded.
Trust me I know its done.

chuckusaret
June 14, 2009, 02:05 PM
I speak with the voice of experience. I did a large group buy of ammo for my shooting buddies and received a call from the ATF. Was thanked for my time and understanding

christcorp
June 14, 2009, 02:16 PM
People tend to mix up "Illegal" with "Unusual". It doesn't matter if something is ILLEGAL to buy or LEGAL to buy. If you aren't a farmer/rancher, and you you buy a large stock of fertilizer; it may be LEGAL, but it's also UNUSUAL. With today's panic buying of guns and ammo, that puts a different wrench in the works. In the past, if you weren't an FFL dealer, and you bought a lot of guns or ammunition at one time, that could definitely be seen as unusual. But now, buying a case of 1000 rounds is NOT unusual in the least. So the "Tripwires" have to be changed and reassessed.

McKnife
June 14, 2009, 03:44 PM
I met an FFL in central Texas... went to talk to him about doing some potential transfers.

He got to runnin' his mouth with old War stories and such, and then proceeds to tell me that weeks earlier, some fella asked him to order 100 .50 BMG Incendiary Armor Piercing rounds because he didn't know where to get any. He quoted the price and made the deal, and even took payment.

The FFL thought it was strange that the gentleman ordered that particular cartridge and in such "high quantity" -- so he called his ATF contact and reported him as a possible domestic terrorist. -- They did an investigation and even visited the gentleman at his home.

I asked if he was charged with anything and I immediately left after he said that the gentleman "was clean... false alarm.":fire:

Be careful... there are taddle-tales around EVERY CORNER!:what:

ilbob
June 14, 2009, 06:18 PM
It matters little whether you are legal or not. If you do something some .gov entity thinks is suspicious or they don't approve of, you will get extra scrutiny. Especially if you are a law abiding taxpaying citizen.

Sometimes it is legit. Most times it is just an exercise to remind us who the boss is.

Vern Humphrey
June 14, 2009, 06:42 PM
Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama.
And they needed a tripwire to know this guy was a dangerous nut?:what:

benEzra
June 14, 2009, 07:07 PM
IRS gets notified about big money transactions to catch folks money laundering and tax cheats. Where you get this idea that the FBI gets this info from the get-go is beyond me.
The Patriot Act greatly expanded bank-transaction reporting requirements in the name of "catchin' terrorists". The IRS is not the primary recipient of most of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act,_Title_III

sernv99
June 16, 2009, 07:03 AM
as I say again, FBI doesn't get a hold of this info from the get-go, meaning banks don't report to the FBI. All this stuff goes to IRS and throughout the Dept of Treasury (my bad for not stating Dept of Treasury explicitly). Dept of Treasury then disseminates this info to any other fed agency as they see fit.

husbandofaromanian
June 16, 2009, 11:12 AM
I think I tripped a wire when I was selling muzzle loading derringers on the street side (legally). After Metro gave up on finding something illegal, an ATF agent came out and inspected my stuff. They couldn't get anything on me. But it was obvious that if I stayed in business, they where going to find a way to get me so ended my business on that incident.

Pizzagunner
June 16, 2009, 11:19 AM
Tripwires only catch the foolish, if that. The careful plotter would take extreme pains to not draw any attention to himself.

A competent lone wolf is probably the most dangerous criminal type going. No one rats him out, no one knows what he is up to. No one gets dissatisfied with their cut or their role.

Prisons are filled with guys who've been caught, usually having been turned on by friends or informants if not caught red handed. However, the odds are exceedingly high that there are also dudes out there committing crimes who are never going to be caught, or if not worried about capture, are not going to be stopped before they act.

SHvar
June 16, 2009, 12:30 PM
Ok, because you say the IRS only gets it, I guess the banks, and the form you have to sign stating that the FBI gets the info is all a lie.
If you say so.

308win
June 16, 2009, 12:46 PM
Even after 9-11, the federal alphabet agencies are to this day paragons of the 'silo' effect when it comes to sharing information. If the federal (and local) agencies ever get their acts together to share and more importantly share their analytical capabilities and results of that analysis a lot of potential ner-do-wells are going to be under a lot of scrutiny they really don't want. And so will the rest of us; this isn't anything new.

ezypikns
June 16, 2009, 12:57 PM
is REALLY buzzin' now.

Zundfolge
June 16, 2009, 01:27 PM
So I assume anyone that owns a Mercedes 300TD Station wagon and has a large garden should make sure they don't both fill the tank on the Merc the same day they buy fertilizer for the garden or buy a copy of Boston T. Party's Gun Bible :neener:

KBintheSLC
June 16, 2009, 01:50 PM
I remember reading this a couple of days ago... FBI tripwires are not a new thing, unless you consider things that started under Hoover to be new.

It was funny when one fellow in the article commented that there is no way to stop this type of "solo" attack, aside from assigning a cop to every citizen. Has he not heard of "shall issue"? Seems that it might be as effective, but just slightly less costly. ;)

sernv99
June 17, 2009, 07:43 AM
Ok, because you say the IRS only gets it, I guess the banks, and the form you have to sign stating that the FBI gets the info is all a lie.
If you say so

negative, I didn't say ONLY the IRS gets the info.

here is the fed's guide for financial institutions to report suspicious activity regarding large monetary transactions:

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/materials/en/prevention_guide.html

chuckusaret
June 17, 2009, 11:31 AM
People tend to mix up "Illegal" with "Unusual".

Large ammo buys by the average Joe citizen catches the scrutiny of big brother just as when someone makes a large purchase with a credit that is normally used for small items, cloths etc. The credit card company calls the card holder.

JohnBT
June 17, 2009, 02:31 PM
You mean unusual like the time my friend wanted to borrow $10k off my credit card in a casino?

It was so far out of the ordinary that the card company rep asked me every possible question she could think of. Yes, I got the money and yes I was paid back with interest.

Ha, of course I was going to get paid back - they were moving and had transferred the contents of their office safe to my safe for few weeks.

John

wildbilll
June 18, 2009, 11:52 AM
Earlier is this thread, there were statements regarding writing checks and signing loan documents and getting reported to the government.
I don't believe that there is any reporting requirment for a bank or mortgage company to report a check or electronic transaction to the IRS or any law enforcement agency at the time of the transaction. The only reporting that takes place is the Loan company issues IRS 1099 forms yearly.
I don't believe there is any ant-terrorism staments in any loan documents.
If I am wrong, please show me where it is written. And please don't be general about it; show the precise wording.

JohnBT
June 18, 2009, 06:35 PM
How precise do you require?

John

catspa
June 18, 2009, 07:58 PM
daorhgih: One small millimeter at a time "they" will demonize the gun, marginalize the gun-owner, and make their move "to make the nation safer for all Americans" by removing the threats ( that's "Us".)

Do you mean like in Germany in 1893, when the Mauser gunworks would only manufacture and sell 7mm rifles to the Spanish and their colonies, not the 8mm that became the German standard? Maybe I should go out and buy another .243 rifle.

Parker

wildbilll
June 19, 2009, 12:34 AM
How precise do you require?

John

:D You so funny!

Yet the claim of reporting a check transaction and some anti terror mumbo jumbo still can't be substantiated.

daorhgih
June 19, 2009, 10:47 PM
Dunham's local sports store here has .308 Winchester grey-box by the 1060 ammo-can for $599. I went and bought two cases. The girl seemed confused about the ad, as it didn't state any limit. I suggested she hail the manager. She did. He says, 'Sell him ten if he has the money!" I like Dunham's !! !!

heviarti
June 19, 2009, 10:53 PM
I'm amazed I didn't hit one wearing my Wycon Chemical 'best shot in the west' baseball cap to the airport

daorhgih
June 19, 2009, 10:59 PM
FBI finds hollow-point bullets in Annapolis home of suspected Holocaust museum shooter
Search warrant records from the FBI show that agents found a 100 rounds of hollow-point bullets and many other items in the Annapolis apartment used by James von Brunn, who has been charged with killing a security officer at Washington's Holocaust Museum.

catspa
June 20, 2009, 02:27 AM
Many other items. Were there knives in his kitchen drawer, perhaps?

Parker

ConstitutionCowboy
June 20, 2009, 12:29 PM
Can you imagine the hoopla if he had a gas stove in there?

The guy committed murder. His hate was the apparent motive. What hollow point bullets had to do with it is unclear in my mind. And what's this "charged with killing"? Didn't he commit murder? There is a difference. I think the Baltimore Sun is trying to equate killing with murder.

You might kill in self defense. You murder with malice.

Woody

ConstitutionCowboy
June 20, 2009, 01:10 PM
I just thought of something...I have a gas range. I've got a gas bar-b-que grill, too. My number of tripwires is growing...

Woody

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