[Balog]

Lately I've been thinking of buying a rifle. Specifically an inexpensive Romanian .22 lr. See my post about that subject here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=45683 .

However, a post on that thread got me to thinking. I'm enlisted in the USMC, and I want to learn how to shoot before I go to Basic. Since I'm self taught about shooting, and have never used anything but shotguns; I have no idea how to fire a rifle. I've been worried about throwing myself into practice for fear of learning bad habits. I've already got a bad flinch going, and don't want to develop even more bad habits. I've considered buying the AQT and "Guide to Becoming a Rifleman" from www.fredsm14stocks.com , but I don't know if his methods would mesh with the Corps'. So what do ya'll think I should do? Wait for Basic and let the Marines teach me from the start, buy the .22 and launch into blindly, buy the AQT, or try to get my recruiter to show me the basics and loan me a USMC manual?

P.S. Any Marines in Arizona who want to teach an impressionable young recruit how to shoot :) ? I'll pay for all the (.22lr) ammo you can shoot;) .

[MuzzleBlast]

My opinion, worth every penny you paid for it:
Let the Marines teach you, since you will be evaluated according to their standards and methods. I have no personal experience in this regard, but Marine riflemen have the reputation of being excellent marksmen. Given that most recruits never handled a rifle before enlisting, maybe the Marines do a good job of teaching marksmanship.

[Keith]

I don't think you can go too far wrong buying a .22 and shooting it as often as possible.

I'm sure you can download the standard USMC manual of arms for the various rifle positions someplace - anybody got a link?

The only thing that gives me pause is that the rifle in your link has an entirely different type of sight than a US military arm. Military rifles have an apperture/post set up that's very different than the rifle you're looking at. That's probably not a big deal.

Oh, and I didn't notice if the rifle you want is set up for a sling? If you want to practice military style shooting you need a rifle that will accomodate a sling.

Keith

[Black Snowman]

The actual USMC instruction manuals should be for sale or even available to download. I know I've seen them at gun shows and in "Cheaper than Dirt" in the past.

Here's a CD with basicly all the USMC manuals on it at amazon: USMC manuals on CD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1930422040/qid=1066683028/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-2538609-3887262?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[BHPshooter]

Well firstly, let me congratulate you and thank you for enlisting. Sometimes I wish I could.

Second, I really don't think it would hurt a thing to get a .22 rifle. It'll give you some great shooting to get rid of your flinch, and will give you a good time, cheap. And any trigger time is good trigger time.

I've also wondered about the "rifleman" program from fred's M14 stocks, but I've never heard anything about it anywhere. But then it would give me a good excuse to buy a rifle... :rolleyes:

Wes

[Mark Tyson]

A plain jane single shot 22 is great for practicing the fundamentals. Seeing as you shoot already, I don't think you'll have any trouble qualifying. I say let them do their job training you. When you get to your unit and have some spare cash, you can buy a rifle to practice on your spare time. Course if you live in the barracks as you probably will at first you'll have to keep it locked in the unit's arms room.

[jrhead75]

I'd add this to my comment on the other thread...

You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and IMO, are at least asking the right questions. My advice would be to wait and let the Marine Corps teach you, especially if you're developing a flinch. Talking to your recruiter and getting a more up to date perspective is certainly a good idea.

Good luck.

[Balog]

They offer a sling as an accessory with the rifle for a few $ more. I wonder if their are any aftermarket sights one could put on it to make it more like the military?

[Balog]

jrhead75 wrote: You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and IMO, are at least asking the right questions. My advice would be to wait and let the Marine Corps teach you, especially if you're developing a flinch. Talking to your recruiter and getting a more up to date perspective is certainly a good idea.


Thank you, that means a lot. And you can replace "developing a flinch" with "battling a well entrenched flinch." My first gun was Satan's 20 ga. Even with reduced skeet loads that thing bruised my shoulder worse than my brother's NEF 12 ga or my Mossie 12 ga do with full house loads. One of the main reasons I want to train now is so I won't have to waste time getting rid of my flinch in Basic. I'll definitely be talking to my recruiter. And I'll try to find the sergeant who used to be at my office but got transfered across town who used to be a scout sniper :eek: . Thanks again for the kind words and advice. I truly appreciate it.

[longtom4570]

I would get the AQT from freds along with his guide to becoming a rifleman

I got both and is well worth it:D also it is shot at 25m so if you dont have

access to a long range you can still shoot it.

[cpileri]

Here you go, Marine. Practice with that 22 on this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=43081&highlight=aqt

and


http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=62315&size=big&password=&sort=1&thecat=

I order you to ace the rifle qualifications!
cpileri
(CPT, MC, USA)

[Keith]

Nah, I doubt you'll find any after-market sights for a Romanian rifle! And it would cost more than the gun to have a Smith create some for you.

I wouldn't worry about it. Apperture sighs are actually easier to shoot than the old iron and bead type sights. If you learn to shoot that rifle well, moving to an apperture will be a breeze.

Keith

[Keith]

It isn't the actual shooting that's tough to learn, it's the positions and how to use the sling in the correct military manner and STILL SHOOT WELL that are a problem!
If you are practicing to get ahead of the game in the MC, you need to learn those standard kneeling/prone/standing positions and get used to rigging that stupid sling up on your arm.

Anybody have a link showing that?

Keith

[cracked butt]

I wouldn't worry about the sights on the trainer. If you can get used to them, you will find that aperture sights on a battle rifle to be a breeze. You don't need a sling to shoot from standard postitions, but a sling does help immensely. I would spend some time plinking, especially pop cans or clay pigeons if possible. Get the rifle sighted in at 25 yards or so from a bench and then shoot for awhile of the bench to get a feel for the rifle and gain a bit of confidence in it. Note the trigger pull and how it feels, how it feels when its about to release and concentrate on squeezing through its breaking point rather than jerking it or even slapping it like you would do with a shotgun. Pay attention to your sight alignment as the trigger is pulled. After awhile, you should be able to call your shots, if the sights looked low when the trigger was pulled, you should be able to determine where the bullet hit as you pulled the trigger. Work on controlling your breathing, breath in, let it half out then squeeze the trigger. Don't hold your breath or your vision will blur somewhat after a few seconds.

Once you get the feel for shooting off a bench or support, work on shooting from a standing position. Plink away and have fun, you probably won't hit much at first as your muscles need to build up a bit in order to steady the rifle, but it will come with time and practice.

I've heard that the Marines have some decent shooters. Some of the best shooters I know were Marines- I'm not sure if the Marines train good shooters or simply attract the type that lkes to shoot rifles alot- I have a feeling its alot of both. Let them sort you out with the service rifle, and in the mean time just plink away and have fun.

[cracked butt]

.If you are practicing to get ahead of the game in the MC, you need to learn those standard kneeling/prone/standing positions and get used to rigging that stupid sling up on your arm.

What do the marines use? The 1907 style sling or the M1 web sling?

1907 sling- pictures are a little dated, but the sling is probably still the best shooting sling out there. http://www.rifleslings.com/us_1907_sling2.htm
http://www.fulton-armory.com/tea/sling.htm

M1 sling-http://www.rifleslings.com/Garand_Sling.htm

Put arm throgh loop- make loop real tight, pull tag end under clasp to tighten sling, clamp down clasp. IIRC I think the military uses a nylon version of the m1 sling*not sure though* These web slings work really well, and the best part is they can be bought for about $4-$5 at any gunshow

[greyhound]

Plus (and I am assuming here you are young) its a good way to start a life-long rifle collection!

[gun-fucious]

http://www.jarheadtop.com/books.html

[rayra]

Balog, congrats on joining, practicing - cracked butt's last link - http://www.rifleslings.com/Garand_Sling.htm is the sling in use when I went through in '87, and seems to be the same in use through '99 (last I saw up close).

I've seen USMC shooting manuals around, if you want the particulars.

None of it is hard or complicated. Any Fundamentals of rifle shooting should serve you well. And there is very little recoil from an M-16, so that should not present any trouble.
Working to eliminate your flinch is the most important thing, particularly in light of the longer-range requirements of the Marine KD course.

And I would indeed check with your recruiters - have heard of many that run some organized PT for their signed delayed-entry types, marksmanship training would be likely, too.

[caseydog]

Talking to your recruiter and getting a more up to date perspective

bwahahahahaha , sorry couldn't resist, somebody obviously talked to the 1 honest recruiter in the Corps at that time.

But seriously let the Corps teach you , since you are a rifle novice learn it their way the first time, better than trying to unlearn something . Case

[Blain]

Here you go, Marine. Practice with that 22 on this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...1&highlight=aqt

and


http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.ph...&sort=1&thecat=

I order you to ace the rifle qualifications!
cpileri
(CPT, MC, USA)


Why do stage IV and stage III both claim to be man sized targets at 400 yards, even though stage IV has smaller targets?

[Shane]

Shotguns can make one flinch, especially with hot loads. I still flinch with a 12 gauge firing buckshot or slugs--->that seems to be beyond my limit of comfort.

I think if you start off with a .22 LR rifle, you'll be in great shape and I'll be SHOCKED if a .22 LR makes you keep flinching. When you start shooting the .223 class in the Marines, the recoil is also very light so I doubt flinching will be a problem there either. And in addition, the Marines will teach you the basics of good shooting and hopefully by the time you go up to .30 cal class rifles flinching will no longer be an issue.

[Kor]

Well, I was an Army Reserve 19K11(M1 Abrams crewman), but if you live in the Tucson area, I'd be happy to help ya out. I happen to have access to an aperture-sighted Mossberg M44 .22LR bolt-action military training rifle, so you don't need to worry about buying a rifle, especially since you're shipping out in 3 weeks anyway. E-mail me through the board if you'd like to get together some Friday or Sunday for a little practice.

Not to steal your DI's thunder ahead of time, but one of the classic techniques for diagnosing/stopping a flinching problem is to get into your kneeling/sitting/prone position and dry-fire while trying to balance a penny laid flat on top of your rifle's front sight. (You may need to get another person to place the penny there for you.) If you flinch, the penny falls off; if you don't, the penny stays balanced. You might actually be able to do this with one of the rifles/shotguns that you or your family already own.

[Andrew Wyatt]

do all the shooting you can ahead of time. get all the training you can ahead of time. the marines are better than the army at teaching riflery, but they're the healthiest patient in the cancer ward.

[Balog]

Kor: that sounds great! I'm in Mesa, but I'd love to take a road trip ;) . I'll talk to my wife about it, see what the schedule looks like. I'm actually not shipping for a while. I'm doing a component change from Reserves to Active duty, so I'll be leaving a bit later. I'll try to get in touch tomorrow when I have a better idea what's going on.

[MolonLabe416]

Check your local gun clubs for a DCM affiliate. They offer high power matches and training. If you tell them you've enlisted and need basic instruction prior to induction, I expect they will jump at the chance to give you all the training you want. You'd be learning the basics - and don't let anybody tell you otherwise, the basics are what shooting is all about - from guys who are serious.

You proabably don't need to take a Combat Whampus Battle Killer course. The Corps will take care of that.

[Atlas Shrug]

To echo what Steve stated, I'll add the following:

"Excellence is the basics, mastered"

I don't recall who said that, but it's pretty much the case with most shooting. Far too many "shooters" worry about all sorts of crap, gear, high speed/low drag silliness and just don't have a clue about basics.

If you learn the basics correctly from a decent coach, get the positions WITH SLING USE down pat, you'll be way ahead of the game, and almost everyone in the military, IMHO.

[cpileri]

Here's the corrected version:
http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=65751&size=big&password=&sort=7&thecat=500


C-

[Teufelhunden]

I'd have to echo the sentiments of other gyrenes who have posted here. Unless you've been taught the Marine Corps way and have been shooting the Marine Corps way, I'd attempt to unlearn most everything you know. Alternately, just keep an open mind when you get to the rifle range, and follow your PMI's (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) instructions to the letter. Anyone who pays attention to the instructor and applies the basics will shoot expert on our range. The people that had trouble in my platoon when I was in bootcamp were the guys that decided grandpa knew more about shooting than the PMI did.

Grandpa might be a hell of a squirrel hunter, but since he's never shot one at 200 yards with an M16A2, doing it his way will hurt you more than it helps you.

Free your mind...

-Teuf

[Bravo11]

Any links to the real AQT target fired at using the correct distance.
If anyone knows the correct square sizes I could scale this image up.
Thx

[duckfoot]

Every Marine on this board will about give you the same advise, but it's not something that we can even kid about much. Marksmanship in the Marine Corps is going to be a very big part of your life. You WILL have to qualify for every year that you’re in. Your score will go toward advancing in rank pass lance corporal to corporal to sergeant etc… But if you really want a leg up on your rifle score going to High Power matches is the best advise I have heard so far. Those guys shoot in almost exactly the same positions that you will be snapping in to at recruit training. He!!, if you were closer to me I’d let you borrow the Bushy DCM and go shoot a course out at Camp Butner, but going to high power matches is the closest you can come.


Oh, BTY if you’re going to San Diego I’d start using a stair master for work ups for Mount Muther F’er and Ol Smokie. Two really big a$$ hills that you hump across and cuss all along the way over. Jarheads been arguing over, which hill is worst for years.

If ya ever find yourself out at Camp Lejeune NC (Camp Swampy to some) give me a PM and we’ll see if we can get together for some shooting.

[Balog]

I am truly touched by the generosity of those on this board. Thank you all for taking the time to try to help me. It's quite a statement about the sort of people who frequent these boards.
That being said, I've decided that I simply have to try and learn to shoot correctly before I leave. I've always been a major advocate of preparing for important events, and I'll be pulling my hair out if I simply ignore this area. As I understand it, such things as breath control and trigger pull (as well as not flinching) will be basically the same everywhere. Thanks to the advice I've received, I'll be very cautious about it. I'm getting in touch with my recruiter tonight. I should be able to get some sort of manual outlining the "Marine Corps Way" or at least find out what to buy elsewhere, and I will use this to evaluate myself. If I wasn't already off to a poor start I might be able to wait. But I simply cannot abide the thought of starting off behind. Thanks again to all who've offered to help. I'll have to see about the local DCM High Power matches.
If anyone else is interested, my offer of "all the .22lr you can shoot" still stands. As good as I'm sure Kor's help will prove, I can't get up to Tucson very often;) . Of course me and my wife were planning a trip to Prescott (a few miles south of Chino Valley), maybe I'll see if the redoubtable C.R. Sam wants to take pity on a poor, flinching lil Marine-to-be :o :)
Thanks again everyone :) :)

[jrhead75]

Oh, BTY if you’re going to San Diego I’d start using a stair master for work ups for Mount Muther F’er and Ol Smokie. Two really big a$$ hills that you hump across and cuss all along the way over. Jarheads been arguing over, which hill is worst for years.
[evil laugh]Heh! Heh! Heh![/evil laugh] :D

[iamkris]

Hey megcatia

Just an FYI (if you didn't already know)...

Lynyrd Synyrd was a famously anti-gun band with at least 2 anti songs "Gimme Back my Bullets" and "Saturday Night Special"

[C.R.Sam]

Balog...
Goodonya for goin active.

May your hitch be good for both you and our country.

Sam

[Kor]

Hey, Balog!

If you can talk the missus into a trip down here, great - if you can't get down this way that easily, I can meet you halfway in Casa Grande some Sunday. There's a nice little 300-yd public range just outside C.G. that we can use, and I can sometimes drag another of my shooting buddies with me on Sundays who's got some 6" and 8" swinging steel plates that we can use. Friday is my other day off, but I can't really do road trips on Fridays and my buddy is at work, also.

If you wanna link up with me, let me know at: glock85713NOSPAM@yahoo.com (remove the NOSPAM first).

Not to slight your brother Jarheads' advice, but you've already got bad shooting habits from your nasty-kicking 20ga. H&R, so it might behoove you to work on un-learning them first, lest you get re-cycled for bolo-ing your rifle marksmanship. First, start dry-firing at home with that penny laid flat on your front sight, and keep doing so until you get tired of it...and then keep doing it for another half-hour. ;) Keep remembering, "Your rifle is your best friend. It is your life. You must master it, as you must master your life." Once you realize that your best friend's recoil is NOT going to hurt you or disturb your aim, half the battle with your flinch is won.

Of course, as I understand it, if you DO bolo the qual first time out, you get a solid week of nothing but shooting at the range, which I personally wouldn't mind :D - but it does still reflect poorly on you if you have to take remedial training, so let's try to get it right the first time.

You may also want to try a more specific appeal on some other boards, like www.battlerifles.com, www.assaultweb.net, or www.ar15.com - something along the lines of, "USMC recruit seeks Phoenix-area Marines for rifle coaching." I know there's several good shooters and good people in the Metro Phoenix area who visit those boards regularly.

[Starpower]

From experience: If you've got military collar devices on your collar tabs, with the "aw damnit" clips on the back of em, make sure you remove them before heading out to the range. US Navy, weapons training in the 60's enroute to Nam, VERY proud of my brand new third class crow in black enamel paint on jungle fatigues (not sewn on, like now) and "OW" them things hurt, and they leave a half moon impression on your shoulder. Especially the old fatigue jacket style worn outside the pants. Had very large lapels, and them pins jabbed when forced into your skin by the recoil of an m-1 or 14. (Well, I said the 60's!) Our weapons instructor liked to show how little recoil the M-16 (Yes the a-1 without the bolt assist lever) had so he put it up to his chin and fired off a couple. I always did think he wasn't quite right.

[Balog]

Kor: sounds great! I've posted this message on BattleRifles. No takers so far, but oh well;) . Tucson should actually work out great. My wife has quite a few friends up there, and a sister church to the one we attend is in those parts as well. I'll shoot you an e-mail when I work something out w/ the wife. I'm blessed to have someone who likes shooting almost as much as I do (almost, she still has some shred of sanity about the subject hehe:) ). Thanks once more.

[Atlas Shrug]

iamkris wrote:

--------------------------
Hey megcatia

Just an FYI (if you didn't already know)...

Lynyrd Synyrd was a famously anti-gun band with at least 2 anti songs "Gimme Back my Bullets" and "Saturday Night Special"
---------------------------

Ugh, please cite some references to this label. I'm quite the Lynyrd Skynyrd fan, and I would not call them "famously anti-gun" at all. In fact, the song "Gimme Back my Bullets" has been documented to be about the (lack of) record industry "bullets" for hit songs, not firearm projectiles. I'll grant that "Saturday Night Special" takes an anti-stance, but it does not jibe with the feelings or actions of the band. I'll take them en toto over this one abberation.

My literary influences include: Ayn Rand, Jeff Cooper, and Ronnie Van Zant.

My humble $0.02 worth.

[iamkris]

OK, probably over-reacting and misinterpreting. If so, my apologies. I like their music too...Sat Nite Special sticks in my craw.

Then again, I like Sheryl Crow's music and she's a ninny.

[TX65]

Since you are in Mesa, go to http://www.accuracyspeaks.com and give Derrick Martin a call. Just tell him you have joined the corps and want to gain his advice of how you can get a leg up heading to bootcamp to standout. Respect his time since he is a busy guy. I have always found Derrick to give honest straight forward advice even if it means not making a sale. If he thinks a training program can benefit you in the time you have before shipping out, I am sure he can direct you in the local area. I wouldn't buy any rifle until you have a plan,,, I know in my area of the country, someone wanting to get started in highpower shooting only needs to show an interest and pay for ammo.

To give you substance of who you would be asking advice from, I will quote from his bio on his website.

"""Derrick Martin's lifelong interest in firearms led him to enlist in the marine corps at 17 where he first entered into competitive shooting. Upon discharge, he enrolled in the Trinidad Jr. College Gunsmithing program and graduated in 1980. He spent the next ten years in retail gunsmithing, working for Safari Arms, Smith Enterprises, & retail gun stores both in Arizona & Nevada.

During that time, he was an active NRA hi- power rifle competitor with the Arizona National Guard Rifle Team & The All National Guard Rifle Team. He became a Distinguished Rifleman in 1987, a Presidents 100 Shooter in 1988 an NRA Hi- Master in 1992, a National Guard Chief's Fifty Shooter in 1995, and became a Distinguished Pistol Shot in 1996.

He has been a continuous member of the All National Guard Rifle Team since 1988, and has been on winning teams at The National Guard Wilson Matches All-Army, Inter service at Camp Perry as well as the Australian & British Skill At Arms Matches. In 1993 he developed The National Guard's M-16 Match Rifle Program and has been a leading national proponent of the M-16 both as a service rifle & NRA match rifle.
Accuracy Speaks was founded in 1989 and has been a mainstay in the shooting sports both regionally and nationally since then. We have built and modified firearms for national and world champions. """"

[MolonLabe416]

If you're heading to Prescott, give Gunsite a call, they're just up the road about 20 miles. Explain what you need and that you've recently enlisted.

Ask for Col. Bob Young. I expect Col. Young (USMC, retired) will be glad to comp you some basic instruction.

[Balog]

Lots of great info! I'll have to check all this out when I get off work. Thanks everyone:)

[justice4all]

As a former 0311, I would suggest waiting until you get there to start learning how to shoot a rifle. IMO you will end up a better shot if you let your PMI start with a clean slate. I would focus on three things: 1) learn the basics of close order drill (how to stand at attention, salute, about face, etc); 2) get in great shape (don't focus on weight training as much as on using your body as the weight, doing pushups, situps, pullups, dips, etc); and 3) work on your basic knowledge, such as rank insignia, Marine Corps lore, etc. Your recruiter should be able to help in all three regards. Some even organize events to help many of their recruits learn this stuff.

This preparation will help you, from day one, do the most important thing you can in boot camp, DISAPPEAR. Blend in, don't stand out, and you'll have a much easier time.

Good luck, and never give up. Remember, it's all a game in boot camp, don't let it get to you too much.

[Balog]

I still haven't been able to get together with my recruiter:( . He wasn't present for our meeting on Thursday. Oh well, I'll catch him this week.

[Kor]

Hey, Balog!

I got ya some training materials - e-mail me with your mailing address, and I'll send 'em to ya.