Anomalous Open Carry


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LWYM425
June 17, 2009, 01:37 PM
*** does that mean??:p

I was reading a thread about concealed carry, and though I KNOW that WA state (my residence) will issue a CPL for concealed carry, I did not know where the state stood with open carry. Below is an exert from a wikipedia search for open carry (If you don't like wikipedia, tough; its convenient and for the most part accurate- or close :neener: ).

Two Questions:
1) If I drive to/through a "Permissive Open Carry" state am I fully lawful carrying open even though I'm not a tax payer of that state?

2) What the heck is anomalous??? Is that another way of saying "its complicated," "Carry at your own risk, ya could get hassled," or will I be accepted and ignored :o

Thanks!

Permissive Open Carry States - A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens without permit or license. Also open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.

Licensed Open Carry States - A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They also permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Also open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.

Anomalous Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is generally lawful, but the state may lack preemption or there may be other significant restrictions.

Non-Permissive Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is not lawful, or is only lawful under a limited set of circumstances, such as when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense.

As the map shows, seven states and the District of Columbia fully prohibit the open carry of firearms. Additionally, there are eleven states which permit open carry without requiring the citizen to apply for any permit or license.

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ilbob
June 17, 2009, 01:51 PM
These are phrases OCDO made up. They have no legal meaning. Most of the wiki article came from and was created by OCDO posters (including me).

I would be very careful about relying on Internet sites for legal advice.

Their site claims that OC is legal in rural areas of IL, but recently it has occurred to me that it is actually felony UUW. I have pointed this out to the site owners but as of yet they have not changed their map.

<added>
OCDO = opencarry.org

Nickotym
June 17, 2009, 04:18 PM
According to dictionary.com:

Anomalous= 1: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected : irregular, unusual 2 a: of uncertain nature or classification b: marked by incongruity or contradiction :

As to open carry in rural parts of IL, I would expect that they mean it is de facto legal, but maybe not de jure legal.

Oro
June 17, 2009, 04:47 PM
1) Rights and laws are not reserved to state residents - if a state allows open carry, anyone can do it, not just a resident, as long as no license is required. This is comparable to speed limits or free speech. If you are a WA resident and in CA, the laws aren't different for you.

2) WA is called an "anomolous" open carry state because it's not expressly permitted, but it's not made illegal. It's simply not addressed.

The basic theory of English law is that if it's not forbidden, then it's allowed - laws exist to restrict your actions, but not to define them. For example, no where in the RCW (revised Code of Wash.) does it expressly say that riding a bicycle is legal. But no one in their right mind would insist that since it's not expressly made legal, it is therefore illegal. So open carry in WA is legal for that reason. I think they list WA as "anomalous" because of the car-carry law (no open car carry without a concealed license. Sort of stupid).

In a sense, you are right, "anomalous" in their usage there means, "it's complicated, read the rules." ;)

LWYM425
June 17, 2009, 04:53 PM
Thanks guys!

Oro, thank you for the break down

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 05:00 PM
As to open carry in rural parts of IL, I would expect that they mean it is de facto legal, but maybe not de jure legal.
No. There is a discussion on OCDO about it.

nalioth
June 17, 2009, 06:08 PM
If I drive to/through a "Permissive Open Carry" state am I fully lawful carrying open even though I'm not a tax payer of that state?
Rights and laws are not reserved to state residents Or other country's residents, either.

You are subject to the laws of the land you stand on.

ArfinGreebly
June 17, 2009, 06:08 PM
An anomalous open carry state would be one, for example Ohio (at least until recently), wherein the state law says "yes, you can carry," but (under something called "Municipal Home Rule") various municipalities or counties have ordinances stating "no, you can't."

So, you jump in your car in City A, and you're just fine. On your way to City B, you drive through City C, where they've got a "home rule" ordinance prohibiting carry in cars. If you get stopped for speeding in City C, you have a problem.

Some states (like Nevada) have preemption, under which no local government may enact ordinances contrary to state law. Nevada has an "anomalous" handgun registration thing: in Clark County (Southern Nevada/Las Vegas), you are required to get a "blue card" that registers any handgun you own. This rule applies nowhere else in the state.

A few years ago, Nevada passed preemption, which makes it impossible for any other county or municipality to impose registration or other limits of that kind. In the legislative session that enacted this, a compromise was required to get the votes, and this compromise was that Clark County would be allowed to continue the "blue card" practice, while the rest of the state would be entirely free of registration.

Nevada is an open carry state. However, because of this compromise, it has a registration anomaly for Southern Nevada (Clark County = Las Vegas, North Las Vegas (and Nellis), Henderson, Boulder City (and Lake Mead), and Blue Diamond/Bonnie Springs).

You can open carry in Clark County, but the "blue card" is required. Therefore, since the rest of the state (and it's a BIG state) doesn't have any registration requirement whatsoever, Nevada is a "mildly" anomalous open carry state.

Ohio was (is?) considerably stickier; their anomalies have (had?) their own gravitational field.

Oro
June 17, 2009, 09:36 PM
Hey, by the way, did you all see those new interactive maps at OCDO? Nice job someone did putting those together...

http://www.opencarry.org/maps.html

conw
June 17, 2009, 10:15 PM
I misread it and thought it said "anonymous open carry." You know, like all those threads on opencarry.org where someone says "I went to a new gas station OCing, paid up, and pumped. Got a strange look but mostly friendly, good people there. Thumbs up!"

NavyLCDR
June 18, 2009, 03:33 PM
On the OCDO website, anomalous means that a state's firearm law contains an anomaly pertaining to open carry. In Washington state, that anomaly is that you cannot place or carry a loaded handed in a vehicle without a CPL. Otherwise open carry, without a license, is completely legal.

There are very few laws written which specifically make actions legal. 99.9% of laws make actions illegal, and, if there is no law making an action illegal, then that action is legal.

LWYM425
June 18, 2009, 03:40 PM
Wow, thats pretty sweet... got my cpl so i guess i can carry however whenever (save those federal laws of course). With so few restrictions it funny that you (I) don't see more people doing it... I hear its more regular east...

Oro
June 18, 2009, 03:51 PM
I hear its more regular east

I don't OC on the wetside in town, etc. I do when I am hiking or deep in the woods in/around the Cascade foothills or Cascades proper, or the wildernesses of the OP.

Just this last Sunday, I got some stares from a few passers-by in cars as we got prepared at the trail head, strapping on a military shoulder holster and pistol. Then a few hours later we ran across a large black bear. So I don't feel paranoid at all.

In Eastern WA, I never see anyone OC'ing around towns, though I am sure some do. But if you step out into some DNR land, USFS land, etc., you will see LOTS of guns openly carried - both handguns and long guns. Now that I have lived in the PNW a few years, I am really beginning to like Eastern WA, for many reasons.

NavyLCDR
June 18, 2009, 05:42 PM
There are restricted places in Washington state applicable to all firearms, CPL or not:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

Bobarino
June 18, 2009, 06:01 PM
here's the WA law pertaining to open carry:

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm Unlawful carrying or handling Penalty Exceptions.


(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

the bolded part is the "anomaly". it leaves a lot open for interpretation. however, there is an unpublished state appeals court ruling in State v. Cassad that ruled that the mere open carrying of a firearm in public is not enough to warrant alarm. it may cause alarm, but it doesn't warrant it.

there are still some agencies and officers that will harass open carriers in WA, BUT they all know it's legal in the end and know that if they arrest you or detain you for it they are in for some deep do-do.

slowly but surely, the WA OCDO group is normalizing the practice and educating law enforcement on the subject.

Bobby

catspa
June 18, 2009, 06:38 PM
Cite for NavyLT's post #11:

RCW 9.41.050(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Also, section 060 contains a bunch of exceptions to that, so look it over too.

I basically do like Oro does - conceal in town, OC in the woods. I also keep a rifle handy. Does that make me an anomaly?

Parker

kurtmax
June 18, 2009, 07:52 PM
On the OCDO website, anomalous means that a state's firearm law contains an anomaly pertaining to open carry. In Washington state, that anomaly is that you cannot place or carry a loaded handed in a vehicle without a CPL. Otherwise open carry, without a license, is completely legal.

This is the correct interpretation. The previous poster that said 'anomalous' means OC is not codified as being legal is incorrect. Most states have no laws prohibiting, or allowing, OC.

Alabama is similar to Washington in that it is 'anomalous' because it requires a permit to carry in a vehicle, concealed or not.

LWYM425
June 24, 2009, 02:46 PM
For those of you still interested I thought I'd share the response I got from the PD. The original question was open ended on open carry

(only 2 weeks to get a response :rolleyes: )

Generally there are no prohibitions on public open carry. There are some exceptions such as courtrooms, jails, some schools, etc. There is also some case law that says that local governments can create additional restrictions as reasonably required, but very few jurisdictions have gone to any length to establish such restrictions.

Private property is an entirely different matter. Private businesses have the right to set standards of conduct for their customers and they can refuse service to people for various reasons- one of those being open carry of firearms. Some businesses don't concern themselves with open carry, but many do have policies or they defer to managers and give them authority to set policies. A number of the large chain stores have very specific policies that prohibit the open carry of firearms. Should you be asked by a business to secure your firearm or leave the premise, you should comply. Otherwise you could be subject to trespass.

While you have the right to open carry in many situations, I always warn people that want to open carry that it will frequently result in a call to 911. When we get the call we get very little information and only one side of the story. We will respond to the incident knowing that a firearm is involved and not knowing if this is a case of someone acting in a threatening manner, suffering from mental health issues, involved in criminal conduct, or simply practicing open carry. Our officers will respond with safety in mind and depending on the circumstances, information we have been given, etc it is possible that you will be detained and questioned until the officers have had sufficient time to contact all involved parties and find out what the facts are.

Personally, I grew up in a location where a significant percentage of the population were very involved with hunting and the sight of firearms did not cause much public excitement. But I have changed my practices in regards to carry of firearms since living in a much more suburban area. While I often carry my firearm when I am out in public it is concealed from view. As a result I have never had any negative contacts. Seems to me that it is a much easier way to go to leave those that are not familiar with firearms in their comfort zone. At the same time I can feel personally secure in having my firearm available as needed. I can accomplish that with concealed carry.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Yours in public safety,

Deputy Chief *****

Oro
June 24, 2009, 04:44 PM
Well, you got an accurate, thoughtful, and considerate letter from the department. Someone took some time to put that together. Good deal.

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