Need professional parsers


PDA






ilbob
June 17, 2009, 01:56 PM
What does this mean?

"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

If you enjoyed reading about "Need professional parsers" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
rainbowbob
June 17, 2009, 02:10 PM
Devices that use compressed air or CO2 or springs to expel a projectile are not firearms.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 17, 2009, 02:12 PM
I'd say it means that .177 caliber air rifles firing BBs at less that 700fps and paintball guns are excluded. Sounds like bb guns producing over 700 fps and any pellet guns are considered firearms.

I would read it as:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

Or, in an easier format:
"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun which either
expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second
or
breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

To be excluded, it needs to be a pneumatic/spring/painball or b-b gun that meets either critieria A (in red) or criteria B (in blue).

As always, IANAL.

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 02:25 PM
We can break it into parts:


"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known,
A firearm is anything which meets the following criteria, without regard to the name it is given or called by.

which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles
The device is designed to eject some smaller object or group of objects

by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas
By using the force of expanding gas.

excluding, however:
Anything meeting the following criteria is not a "firearm" for the purposes of this section.

(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun
Devices designed using compressed gas, springs or can be otherwise classified as a "paintball marker" or "BB gun" (I would assume pellet gun would also apply)

which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second
As long as it can't eject more than a single projectile, and that projectile is smaller than or equal to 0.18 inches in diameter. Additionally the maximum muzzle velocity can't be equal or less than 700 feet per second.

or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;
It can go faster than 700fps and be larger than 0.18 inches in diameter if it is a ball of paint that breaks up when it strikes something and the paint is washable.

IANAL, but the laws are supposed to be understandable by the average person.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 17, 2009, 02:26 PM
cloudedice, you left out "globular" which means it needs to be spherical.

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 02:33 PM
Upon further reading, Jorg is right. Pellet guns would be considered firearms because of that pesky word, "globular."

Does this mean that my BB gun automatically becomes a firearm by placing a pellet into it? (And I were in whatever jurisdiction that definition applies)

ETA: Hah, Jorg responded before I did.

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 02:37 PM
someone PM's me an interesting sideline to this that led me to think about it some more.

Is a spring loaded dart gun a firearm in Illinois?

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 02:38 PM
Yes. The dart is not "globular."

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 02:41 PM
For reference, this definition is for the purposes of the Illinois Firearm Owner Identification Card Act (430 ILCS 65/1.1)

(from Ch. 38, par. 83‑1.1)

"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;
(2) any device used exclusively for signalling or safety and required or recommended by the United States Coast Guard or the Interstate Commerce Commission;
(3) any device used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition; and
(4) an antique firearm (other than a machine‑gun) which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1657&ChapAct=430%C2%A0ILCS%C2%A065/&ChapterID=39&ChapterName=PUBLIC+SAFETY&ActName=Firearm+Owners+Identification+Card+Act.

edSky
June 17, 2009, 02:54 PM
being somewhat of a smarty-pants, I'd have to say that pea-shooters and spit-balls can be classified as firearms. (1) is very specific, and doesn't cover everything that isn't "designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas." Like pea-shooters.

Of course it's highly unlikely that someone would be convicted of a pea-shooting violation. But I have seen people do damage with blow-guns. They are used here in Arkansas to tranquilize bears during wildlife surveys. And by Bulgarians in spy movies. :p

Phatty
June 17, 2009, 02:55 PM
Is a spring loaded dart gun a firearm in Illinois?
No, a spring is not "by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas."

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 02:59 PM
For reference, this definition is for the purposes of the Illinois Firearm Owner Identification Card Act (430 ILCS 65/1.1)

It gets better (or worse, depending on your POV).

(720 ILCS 5/2‑7.1)
Sec. 2‑7.1. "Firearm" and "firearm ammunition". "Firearm" and "firearm ammunition" have the meanings ascribed to them in Section 1.1 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act.

720 ILCS 5 is the criminal code. So the definition of firearm extends to the whole criminal code.

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 03:00 PM
Is a spring loaded dart gun a firearm in Illinois?

No, a spring is not "by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas."

Come on. You are closing in on it.

being somewhat of a smarty-pants, I'd have to say that pea-shooters and spit-balls can be classified as firearms.
I think we have a winner, at least if they are > .18 caliber peas. :)

<added>
It really doesn't matter what the caliber is because a pea shooter is not a gun and only guns are excluded.

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 03:01 PM
A blow gun could easily fall into the "firearm" category. It's designed to work by air escaping your lungs/mouth/tube. This description sure seems to fit the "firearm" description. Since the projectiles are darts and aren't paint, it is not excluded by (1).

cloudedice
June 17, 2009, 03:04 PM
No, a spring is not "by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas."

Good point. This is the reason I'm not a lawyer. :D

t165
June 17, 2009, 03:05 PM
Well I'll be damned. I live in Indiana about 1 mile from the Wabash River. Does this mean when I travel across the Wabash (into Illinois) to shoot my RWS .22 350 Magnum Pellet Rifle that I can be arrested? Am I glad I live in the great State of Indiana. We can own/shoot and carry firearms and our State Constitution requires our politicians to balance the budget and not bury Indiana in debt. Basically...if Indiana does not have the money we do not spend it.

Phatty
June 17, 2009, 03:14 PM
I think we have a winner, at least if they are > .18 caliber peas.
The .18 caliber requirement is inapplicable unless the device is a pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun. A pea shooter is none of those.

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 03:18 PM
The .18 caliber requirement is inapplicable unless the device is a pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun. A pea shooter is none of those
It only excludes those type of guns.

Since a pea shooter is not a gun, it is not excluded.

I was just kidding about the .18 caliber thing. I will add a smiley face there.

Phatty
June 17, 2009, 03:19 PM
A blow gun could easily fall into the "firearm" category. It's designed to work by air escaping your lungs/mouth/tube. This description sure seems to fit the "firearm" description.
That's technically correct. As you mentioned earlier, I doubt the statute would actually be applied in that fashion.

Since the projectiles are darts and aren't paint, it is not excluded by (1).
The type of projectiles makes no difference. Once you fail to meet the initial threshhold of the (1) exception (pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B‑B gun) you wouldn't read any further.

Phatty
June 17, 2009, 03:26 PM
Since a pea shooter is not a gun, it is not excluded.
The point that clouddice was making is that, technically, a pea shooter could be a firearm under the Illinois definition.

The statute is set up so that there is a very broad general definition (any device that shoots a projectile using gas expansion) with specific exceptions. A pea shooter is captured by the general definition and is not excluded by any of the specific exceptions.

CoRoMo
June 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
...which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and...

So, loading two BBs crosses the line?

I know of .50 cal muzzleloaders that operate on compressed air too. I guess they are technically firearms too. I always thought that since they, A. are muzzleloaders, and B. operate from compressed air, they got further away from the 'firearms' definition, than a modern inline would be. Looks like they are not only closer to the definition, they are well within it. IANAL.

ilbob
June 17, 2009, 04:15 PM
FYI. Illinois considers muzzle loaders including antiques to be firearms.

Even an original 15th century matchlock is a firearm to the state of Illinois.

ArfinGreebly
June 17, 2009, 04:32 PM
Airsoft, which uses compressed air via spring, co2, or electric pump, fires plastic BBs measuring 6mm, or 0.236 inches, at up to 500 fps (I believe).

Therefore, since it's a "globular projectile" of > 0.18 inches, that would make it a "firearm" by the above definition.

Too funny. A BB gun, shooting a steel ball at 650 fps is okay, but a plastic gun shooting plastic balls at 400 fps is not.

I used to have a pump gun that shot PING PONG BALLS at maybe 100-200 fps. That, under their definition, would be a firearm.

Once again, we see the effort to "be precise" resulting in articulation FAIL.

Six
June 17, 2009, 06:26 PM
Are marshmallows considered globular?

If you enjoyed reading about "Need professional parsers" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!