[mudriver]

I have a real problem (or hypothetical)

I will be living in an apartment temporarily for several months. I have a 9mm but also wanted a long gun, mostly for taking to the range, but also potentially for defensive purposes. I want to use an M44 because:

1. Bayonet (should reduce the need to pull the trigger!):rolleyes:
2. Less monetary risk if stolen
3. I have and load plinking ammo for this gun
4. Bayonet:D

So my hypothetical question is - if I actually wanted to load an 'apartment' load in 7.62x54 what would I use? I'm less concerned about lethality than wall penetration. This weapon is mostly a "get out of my place or this pointy thing will really hurt you" but if necessary will still make a hole in a perp.

So whadya all think? Am I crazy?:uhoh:
I load down lots of loads so I'm comfortable doing that....

[dullh]

In an apartment penetration will be an issue with any load from any gun, be it a long gun or handgun. Worse from a rifle I would think.

Ever considered a shotgun load? I'm betting someone will come in here and disagree, but a nice 2-3/4" reduced buckshot load like what Federal offers might be a better choice in an apartment.

Those walls are really thin.

[The Bushmaster]

#7 shot of 2 3/4" 12 gauge Dove and Quail will tend to hurt a bunch at close range and will have less chance of penatrating the wall...

[The Bushmaster]

@#$%^&*!!! This damned fool web site just told me that I had to wait 60 seconds before I could post a second post. Hell!! I hadn't even posted my first one..What gives...?

[mudriver]

I like the small shot approach, but I really want to use the M44. Is there a way to use shot out of that?

[dmazur]

I live in a neighborhood with houses 50 ft away (adjacent) to possibly 150 ft (if across the street.)

While I have a Garand and am an enthusiastic supporter of fine battle rifles, there is no way I would consider using it for self-defense in a housing development. The risk of penetrating walls and injuring/killing innocent people is simply too great.

I can't imagine an apartment complex could be any better, no matter what the construction method.

According to my uncle, who was in the Battle of the Bulge, bayonets were rarely used in WWII. Room clearing techniques as used by modern soldiers/police were yet to be developed, but the last thing they wanted was a longer rifle in close quarters. Something to think about, as you imagine the utility of that frog-sticker...

Based on logic, as I have no actual experience in shooting intruders, I would get some kind of lock box to secure your 9mm pistol (which is probably more valuable than the M44) and practice with that. When you get good in daylight conditions, add a flashlight to the problem and practice with the iron sights against the illuminated target. There are a variety of techniques for holding the flashlight and shooting at the same time. It isn't easy.

The M44 brass capacity isn't large enough to replace a shotgun, so if you want a shotgun for defense, get one. If your state permits the pistol grip and 20" barrel, this type offers compactness for close-quarters handling.

Summary: Pistol or shotgun for an apartment. Ixnay on the ifleray.

[Roccobro]

Summary: Pistol or shotgun for an apartment

Sorry, I have to agree. And I'm a cheap bastard and afraid of my junk getting stolen too..

Justin

[ArchAngelCD]

You can buy a M44 for the range and fun shooting and also buy a used Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 for home defense. The shotgun can be had for under $200 if you look around and will make a much better HD weapon than a Mosin Nagant. BTW, I like #4 Buckshot better than Birdshot for HD.

I would like to tell you the M44 is a good choice but it's not for many reasons, sorry...

[conwict]

Have you ever shot a Mosin? I don't think you could handle it indoors without a flinch if you anticipated (correctly) the amount of sensory overload it would generate inside. I don't understand why you don't just get a shotgun, which covers the problem of thin walls nicer than almost any option. If you're exceedingly concerned with thin walls and overpenetration, search for some of sm's posts on how to build and test your own cover material. Then put it behind where you would anticipate firing a defensive shot at your target.

If you're more concerned with burglary than actual bodily injury, just spend the money in a good security system. You have your computer at home...right? That's worth more than $1-200...right?

Stop overthinking things :)

[rcmodel]

Yes, you can build a good home defense load using your 7.62x54R rifle.
(Or, as good as a Mossy can be for HD!)

Think Gallery loads.

I'd suggest a 110 grain SP bullet intended for the .30 Carbine, or the 100 grain Speer Plinker half-jacket.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=618190

Load with Ed Harris's "The Load" of 13 grains Red Dot powder.

Keeping the velocity around 1,500 FPS or so, either bullet I suggested will mushroom and limit penetration to no more then buckshot or common handgun calibers.
Without blowing the sheet-rock off the ceiling.

And either bullet will take out a BG just fine.

rc

[conwict]

rcmodel seems to know his stuff, but I always fall back on www.boxotruth.com for penetration info. Not something to take lightly and, as I'm sure rc would agree, not something to go solely on another's internet post. Test and verify for yourself, as well.

[Steve C]

If the m44 was the only gun you had you could put together a cast bullet with a load of Unique or Red Dot that would be equivalent to a 9mm pistol load in velocity however it would likely penetrate more than a pistol round as the longer heavier rifle bullet will have a higher ballistic coefficient.

I'd suggest you use the 9mm with good hollow points for self defense. Even though it will penetrate walls its unlikely you'd hit anyone as there's lots of space between individuals even in apartments.

[rcmodel]

Sectional Density increases penetration.

Thats why I suggested the 100 grain Speer Plinker / Red Dot load.

Very low Sectional Density on that bullet.

rc

[RoostRider]

You can, without a doubt, load the round down to the point that it will not penetrate any more than a handgun, and you could even put lead shot in there if you wanted (it would be difficult, slow, and ineffective against most intended targets IMO).

Do they still make Glazer Safety Slugs? You might get those in the right caliber instead of loading shot in a rifle.....

No matter how you look at one of those options, you would need to work up an appropriate load and test it in your gun repeatedly to be sure....

This would not solve the issue of maneuverability and ease of use if needed and it would be only as effective, or worse, than a comparable handgun.

It would be a lot less hassle to just get a handgun.... or a shotgun if you're comfortable with the maneuverability issues...

[Marlin 45 carbine]

since you have a 9mm all you need is an expanding slug (124gr hot load suggested) for inside your apartment.
will do the job on a BG one shot knock down with good shot placement and very likely come apart in the interior partitions.
don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy buddy.;)

[mudriver]

I feel pretty good about using a 9mm, however, I'm still thinking about the utility of the bayonet. The bayonet, you see, is a psychological weapon and the Russians used them mostly against civilians (most countries keep bayonets for the same reason - civies won't charge troops that form a tight line with them extended). So, I would use situations where I would want to have less than lethal options. Buttstroke, or just pointing the bayo at someone.

Manueverability isn't an issue in my apartment, its small with really just one hallway.

I was thinking about using red dot loads. I use them now. I think 10g with a 100g bullet is around 1200 fps. What if I loaded the lead bullet backwards?

BTW - most of my jobs were focused on 'overthinking' stuff. I'm just that kind of person. It does annoy the wife quite a bit.....:evil:

I do shoot Mosins quite a bit, loaded down it won't be a problem. I also don't think I can buy a gun in the state I'm temporarily residing in...

[rcmodel]

Buttstroke, or just pointing the bayo at someone.Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe a Mossy with a bayonet mounted is approaching 5 1/2" feet long.

You would stick it in the ceiling in the middle of butt-stroking a midget.

And you would have absolutely no room to maneuver it in a hallway.

Bad idea all the way around!

rc

[zxcvbob]

RC beat me to it, but I'd recommend about 12 or 13 grains of Red Dot with flat- or round-nosed .30-30 bullets (either cast or plated.) That's probably still going to penetrate like a 9mm FMJ.

[conwict]

[124gr JHP 9mm] very likely come apart in the interior partitions.

I disagree based on my own experience. I've shot a variety of 9mm loads (I don't handload, talking factory loads - but good ones) mostly in 115gr JHP into wood and sheetrock and it seeems to plug nearly every time.

[junior geezer]

i've fired a hard-cast 113gr lee fn over 5.0 grains of red dot out of an SKS and the bullet went straight through a 14" pine firewood log, end for end, about 50% of the bullet emerging from the far end. i am very certain the bullet would have penetrated completely if not for the phone book i had backing the log, "just in case."

the bullet was "pristine" save for the rifling marks. the distance from which i fired, eight feet.

myself, i would hesitate to consider using any reduced centerfire load in an apartment. were i you, i would use the 9mm, loaded with safety slugs.

[mudriver]

For those of you following this insanity:

What if I cut a 100g lead bullet in half - a 60g really flat bullet? Low sectional density?