LEO Carry in MN


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usmarine0352_2005
June 19, 2009, 04:09 AM
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If you are an LEO in MN can you off-duty carry in places like banks, schools, and airports?

Not asking, why would you want to, just if you legally can.
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psyopspec
June 19, 2009, 05:31 AM
I went so school in MN, and my college roommate's sister was married to a county LEO in the South Central part of the state. He carried everywhere because even when he was off duty, he was technically on call. Some jurisdictions not only allow it, but require badge/credentials and gun be on the individual officers even when not in uniform or on duty.

sacp81170a
June 19, 2009, 08:54 AM
What psyopspec said, though it depends on the individual department's policy. Some big city departments don't allow their officers to carry off duty. :barf:

usmarine0352_2005
June 19, 2009, 12:49 PM
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I know that policy can be different, but I'm looking for MN state law.
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GRIZ22
June 19, 2009, 12:53 PM
Not sure of MN but in most states LEOs are not limited in where they can carry. Laws prohibiting carry in banks, govt buildings, places that serve alcohol, etc apply to those with a carry permit.

The agency the LEO works for may have rules, like no drinking and gun toting.

isp2605
June 19, 2009, 07:37 PM
There's federal law that addresses your question. It supercedes state laws. Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004. It gives all LEOs and qualified retired LEOs the authority to carry in all 50 states, Washington DC, and all US possessions. The only restrictions are government agencies can prohibit carrying on government property and private persons/entities can prohibit carrying on their property.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ277.108
An agency may have internal policies restriction carrying by their officers but that would only be a policy violation and not a violation of law.

usmarine0352_2005
June 20, 2009, 05:50 AM
The only restrictions are government agencies can prohibit carrying on government property and private persons/entities can prohibit carrying on their property.



So a private business like a mall could prohibit you?


And a government entity like a school?

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Maelstrom
June 20, 2009, 06:03 AM
Yes and no.

In a police officer's home state he has full police power and so falls under the portion of law which exempts police from certain prohibited acts (i.e. carrying concealed switchblades, prohibited places of carry, etc.)

Once the police officer leaves his home state the federal law kicks in and he's essentially a CCW, subject to all the rules and regs.

isp2605
June 20, 2009, 10:08 AM
There's nothing in LEOSA that specifies home state or out of state. LEOSA applies to ALL states regardless of where the LEO is from or where he is, even while in his home state.
LEOSA has nothing to do with switchblades or anything other than carrying a concealed handgun by active and qualified retired LEOs.

Once the police officer leaves his home state the federal law kicks in and he's essentially a CCW, subject to all the rules and regs.
Not so. Using your reasoning then LEOSA would have no effect in states like IL or WI which prohibit CCW by anyone. Clearly that is not the case. The stated purpose of LEOSA is to exempt qualified active/retired LEOs from state laws and restrictions. LEOSA exempts LEOs from state rules and regulations. That's stated specifically in the paragraph (a) of the act. For example, a state may restrict their CCW licensees from carrying in a bar. Qualified LEOs are not bound by that restriction. LEOSA is very clearly worded in that regard. The government can ONLY prohibit carrying in "any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park." Unless the bar is owned by the government then the government cannot prohibit the qualified LEO from carrying there.

So a private business like a mall could prohibit you?
Correct.

And a government entity like a school?
Correct.

jon_in_wv
June 20, 2009, 11:46 AM
LEOSA is simple. IT allows qualified LEO and retired LEO to carry a concealed weapon in ALL 50 states and DC and PR exempt from any state or local laws prohibiting it. The only laws that restrict it are state or local laws that prohibited carry on specific government property. In my state of WV its courthouses, school grounds, the state capital, etc..... There is no difference if it is your state of residence or not.

Private property owners still set the rules on their property. In my state the mall can prohibit carry but if you do all they ask you to do is surrender the weapon or leave. Likely I won't be able to come back though.

IT does NOT have any effect on you employers policies. If you work for an agency that prohibits you or limits personal carry off duty as a condition of employment LEOSA does not effect that. It also does not grant any others powers that were not there before LEOSA. If you had no arrest authority in another state before, you still don't.

usmarine0352_2005
June 20, 2009, 04:15 PM
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So in their home state officers can carry in:

1. Banks

2.) Businesses (even if posted No Guns) like a Buffalo Wild Wings, MOA

3.) Post Office

4.) School




And if there in a state that isn't their home state where they work regular CCW applies?
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isp2605
June 20, 2009, 05:10 PM
So in their home state officers can carry in:
1. Banks
2.) Businesses (even if posted No Guns) like a Buffalo Wild Wings, MOA
3.) Post Office
4.) School
Nope.
Forget anything about home state or out of state. LEOSA doesn't specify. No difference.
Whether they can carry in a bank or business depends on the bank or business owner. If they post it no firearms then can't carry there. Those are private entities and only the owners of the entities can prohibit carrying, not the government.
Post offices and schools are generally government entities, therefore the government can prohibit carrying there.


And if there in a state that isn't their home state where they work regular CCW applies?
Doesn't matter what the CCW rules are, they don't apply to LEOs and qualified retired LEOs. The ONLY restrictions that apply to LEOs and qualified retired LEOs are those restrictions imposed by the government but only on goverment property and restrictions imposed by private entities on their property.
It doesn't matter if home state or out of state. Home state or out of state, all the same.
As Jon in WV mentioned LEOSA is pretty simple and simply written. Where it gets screwed up is when someone tries interposing their own interpretation and adding things that aren't in it, such as, home state and out of state. Neither are mentioned in LEOSA.

TheFallGuy
June 20, 2009, 06:16 PM
This is what I learned in school. You can argue all you want but this is what my instructors told me. Keep in mind I am pursuing a law enforcement degree in Minnesota.

While on duty an officer is exempt from any and all carry restrictions (schools,businesses, etc).

While off duty it is to be treated with carry permit in all 50 states (no schools, etc). I was also told that discretion is a key factor. While it is legal to carry in a bar here, you shouldn't do it for obvious reasons etc.

I AM NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. I AM TRAINING TO BE ONE. I don't want anybody mistaking me for an leo or claiming I said I was.

jon_in_wv
June 20, 2009, 07:24 PM
The whole purpose of the law was to alleviate the problems caused by the patchwork of different law regarding LEOs through out the country. In one state and officer could carry, in the next he can't, in the state he can he can't carry in a certain CITY, it was almost impossible to function without breaking the law regularly. NY officers are a perfect example. Some officers could carry in one burrow but now in another belonging to another jurisdiction. He would literally cross the street and be breaking the law. If he lived in Brooklyn, worked in Queens he could carry in Queens where he worked but not in Brooklyn where he lived. If he was required to carry off duty he had to move. What LEOSA does is exempt all qualified LEOs from these laws.
Next we have to get it for everyone.

TheFallGuy. Not all states prohibit carry in schools. Just the dumb ones. I disagree with telling law abiding gun toters they can't carry ANYWHERE except maybe a commercial airplane.

GRIZ22
June 20, 2009, 11:37 PM
NY officers are a perfect example. Some officers could carry in one burrow but now in another belonging to another jurisdiction. He would literally cross the street and be breaking the law. If he lived in Brooklyn, worked in Queens he could carry in Queens where he worked but not in Brooklyn where he lived. If he was required to carry off duty he had to move.

jon, could you please explain this? Not in LEOSA terms but what agency in NYC had regs like this? I worked as a LEO (Federal) in NYC and the NYC area for over 25 years and never heard of any LEO being restricted by borough.

jon_in_wv
June 20, 2009, 11:48 PM
I knew someone would call me out on that example. It was largely hypothetical. It would have been more realistic to talk about the issues that I hear happen along the New York/ New Jersey border or the DC area where the Officers may live in Maryland or another neighboring state. I meant to put a disclaimer on that example but I forgot.
My info on NY has to do with conversations I had years ago with someone and could be completely false. It was meant to illustrate a point but it historical accuracy highly suspect. I don't even know what the heck a burough is unless your talking about a donkey. I hope the overall point and my poor attempt to paint an example wasn't completely lost though.

GRIZ22
June 21, 2009, 12:32 AM
I don't even know what the heck a burough is unless your talking about a donkey. I hope the overall point and my poor attempt to paint an example wasn't completely lost though.


Boroughs in NYC, Manhattan, Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island (Kings), are all counties. Borough is also a municipal designation like city, town, village, township, etc but don't ask me what the difference is other than name. I was probably confused as I am familiar with the area. No problem!

It would have been more realistic to talk about the issues that I hear happen along the New York/ New Jersey border or the DC area where the Officers may live in Maryland or another neighboring state.

This was an issue with NYPD officers who live in counties bordering NJ. The easiest way to and from work was through NJ (NY to NJ to NY) and to stay legal they were supposed to lock their gun in the trunk before leaving NY and then get it out when they got to NY.

jon_in_wv
June 21, 2009, 10:15 AM
There ya go, thanks for clearing that up. Now back to Minnesota before this thread is totally hijacked. I'm originally a Minnesota boy and I plan on moving back in a few years.

carebear
June 21, 2009, 11:28 PM
From Montana DOJ

http://www.doj.mt.gov/enforcement/criminaljustice/concealedweapons.asp

Concealed Weapons
Montana law prohibits people from carrying concealed weapons inside city, town or logging camp limits and also contains some limits on carrying concealed weapons outside of city limits. However, a person may carry concealed weapons in many instances if he or she has a valid Montana or out-of-state permit to do so.

No weapons, concealed or otherwise, are allowed in school buildings in Montana, no matter where they are located.

Even with a concealed weapons permit, you may not carry a concealed weapon in the following places:

•buildings owned or leased by the federal, state or local government
•financial institutions
•any place where alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed and consumed
In addition, be sure to check local regulations, which may restrict carrying concealed weapons at public meetings, and in public parks and buildings.

County sheriffs can provide information on where concealed weapons are prohibited in their counties.

Montana has no prohibitions against carrying a weapon in a motor vehicle, although federal rules may apply in national parks.

Montana Residents
To obtain a Montana concealed weapons permit, a person must:

•have been a Montana resident for at least six months
•be a U.S. citizen
•be at least 18 years old
Applications are available from the local county sheriff's office. This site provides a sample application so people can review what is required and gather the necessary documentation prior to going to their sheriff's office. The form is clearly marked as a "sample only" and cannot be used in place of the application provided by the local sheriff's office.

Montana residents who want to know if their permits are valid in another state must check with the specific state in which they want to carry a weapon.

Non-Residents
Montana recognizes concealed weapons permits from some other states. Non-residents must meet the following criteria to carry a concealed weapon in Montana:

•The state that issued their permit must require a criminal records background check before issuing a permit.
•The permit must be in the holder's possession.
•The permit holder must have photo identification.
The Attorney General's Office has determined that concealed weapons permits from the following states are recognized under Montana law:

... edited for brevity ...

Law Enforcement Officers
Federal legislation signed in July 2004 exempts current and retired law enforcement officers from Montana's concealed weapon statute. Any qualified law enforcement officer with proper identification can carry a concealed weapon, overruling state concealed weapons laws to the contrary.

Qualifications
Active Officers
Under the federal law, a qualified law enforcement officer is defined as a current employee of a governmental agency who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and who has the statutory powers of arrest. In addition, the law enforcement officer must:

•be authorized by the agency to carry a firearm
•meet the agency's necessary qualifications to carry a firearm
•be in good standing with the agency
•not be under the influence of alcohol or drugs
•not be prohibited by federal law from carrying a firearm
Identification required:

•the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency by which the individual is employed. A badge qualifies as long as it has a photo ID with it.
In Montana, an officer's P.O.S.T. certification fulfills the requirements of this act.

Retired Officers
The federal legislation defines a qualified retired law enforcement officer as anyone who retired from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer as defined above and did so in good standing. In addition, the individual must:

•have been a law enforcement officer a total of at least 15 years
•have completed the employer's required probationary period, if retiring due to a service-connected disability
•have a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement plan of a law enforcement agency
•have met, during the most recent 12-month period, at his or her own expense, the same standards for training and qualification to carry a firearm as are required for active law enforcement officers in his or her resident state
•not be under the influence of alcohol or drugs
•not be prohibited by federal law from carrying a firearm
Identification required:

•a photo ID issued by the law enforcement agency from which the individual retired that indicates that he or she has met the same standards to carry a firearm as are required by that agency for active law enforcement officers, or
•a photo ID issued by the law enforcement agency from which the individual retired, and a certification issued by the individual's state of residence that indicates he or she has met, during the most recent 12-month period, at his or her own expense, the same standards for training and qualification to carry a firearm as are required for active law enforcement officers in his or her resident state
However, because the federal legislation contained no funding to create state or local programs to qualify retired law enforcement officers to carry a concealed weapon under this provision, there are few agencies that offer such programs. While some smaller local agencies may qualify their retirees, such programs are not generally available in Montana and few retired officers here are therefore able to carry concealed weapons under this federal legislation.

While a retired law enforcement officer may have a Montana concealed weapons permit, having that Montana permit does not meet the firearms qualifications required by the federal act and does not allow retired officers to operate under its provisions, either in Montana or when they travel out of state.

jon_in_wv
July 11, 2009, 11:24 AM
Last week when I was traveling back to Minnesota I got pulled over in Ohio. The officer (nice guy BTW) asked for my license and registration/insurance. I was looking all over for my registration/insurance when I realized it must be in my glove compartment with my M beloved M&P 9c. He was standing right by the passenger window and I wasn't about to fish around in there with the weapon in plain sight. I said, "This is awkward but my registration/insurance are in my glove compartment with my weapon so you probably don't want me to fish around for it." He replied by asking if I had my CW Permit and I handed him my work I.D. He looked kind of confused and stated he didn't know I was covered by LEOSA. (or had never heard that we were) Luckily I also carry copies of the memo from the Attorney General, the Director of my agency, and a copy of the statute showing my limited arrest authority and I handed them to him. He read them and responded, "hey, you learn something new every day!" He ended up giving me a written warning and sending me on my way. I thought I was getting arrested for a minute there. I know I would have been good in the long run but I was traveling with my 7 year old daughter and I know she would have had a really scarey day. It all worked out in the end though.

BTW: I really had a great time in Minnesota. There is NO place like home.

SHvar
July 11, 2009, 12:17 PM
What I am told concerning NYC peace officers is that carry is legal and expected anywhere on or off duty, unless of course you are consuming alcohol. With so many off duty and present throughout the city at any given time they are expected to assist those on duty when physically and mentally capable should the situation arise.
Basically when capable you are on duty, and can be called into work at any time.

larry_minn
July 12, 2009, 04:28 AM
Ok as a permit holder I can carry in banks, the NON secure area of airport and while drinking (as long as my BAC is uner .04)
I can not in secure area of airport, courthouses, capital (unless I notify) post offices and schools.

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