Build your own?


PDA






mcdonl
June 19, 2009, 09:04 AM
Hi all, I was just browsing the guns in www.unclehenrys.com and this ad caught my eye... not because of the gun but because of the last sentance....

AK47 Build your own AK47 using the only receiver flat that you don't need a tool or a press to bend, You can bend it by hand. All holes and all openings are already cut out by laser and both bolt guides are incl. This ad is for the flat and guides only. All other parts must be purchased elsewhere. Note, bending the flat makes it into a firearm even w/out other parts. If it is legal for you to own a firearm then you can build one for yourself. $49 Plus Shipping-Contact Information-Naples, ME

Is that true? It is like saying, if you do not have a license, but you built your own car you can drive it.

Seems misleading and illegal.

If you enjoyed reading about "Build your own?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ClickClickD'oh
June 19, 2009, 09:10 AM
Build yes. Sell, no.

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2009, 09:14 AM
Seems misleading and illegal.

Nope. Any weird state laws notwithstanding it is perfectly legal from a Federal standpoint to build your own firearm as long as you can legally own one.

As mentioned, selling could potentially cause a problem though, so be careful.

sanerkeki
June 19, 2009, 09:21 AM
It is like alcohol. If you make some for your self it is not illegal as long as you do not sell it or make it in quantities that would suggest that you have intent to sell it.

OurSafeHome.net
June 19, 2009, 09:33 AM
I think the kgBATF allows you to distill some ludicrously large amount of alcohol "for personal consumption" each year. 100 GALLONS(?), I think. But you cannot sell it.

CoRoMo
June 19, 2009, 09:34 AM
My oldest brother is an engineer. Back in college, he built a 1911 in one of his machining classes, as a project. I don't know what kind of grade he got from that, but he still has that gun, and it operates like any $1,000 pistol would. After he finished it, my dad caught the bug and machined out one of his own.

Since there are no serial numbers on these pistols, FWIH, it is illegal to ever sell them, gift them, or will them to anyone. IIRC, they'll need to stamp in a serial number, and it can be anything; a date, their name, anything.

mcdonl
June 19, 2009, 09:37 AM
Ok cool... I know laws around buying/selling are so strict that building may consider you a manufacturer... Kinda funny... You can build it, but not sell/give it away...

Thanks guys

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2009, 09:58 AM
You can build it, but not sell/give it away...

Not sure about giving it away, but no selling without some potential problems.

Gifting I'm not sure about.

everallm
June 19, 2009, 10:01 AM
I think the kgBATF allows you to distill some ludicrously large amount of alcohol "for personal consumption" each year. 100 GALLONS(?), I think. But you cannot sell it

One hundred gallons per person per year to a maximum of 200 gallons per household of BEER or WINE for personal usage.

NOT NOT NOT distilled spirits without a licence or the A part of ATF will come a knocking.

You can apply for a Small Alcohol Fuel Producer permit that allows personal production of up to 10,000 proof gallons per year for fuel purposes but they do check up on the whole denaturing, not drinkable part..........:evil:

Sam1911
June 19, 2009, 11:16 AM
You certainly may sell a firearm you've build yourself. There are clear BATFE guidelines for doing so.

Yes, if you decide to sell it, it will need a serial number and manufacturer's information (that's YOU), engraved on it to meet their specifications.

This is a popular subject of conversation in the AK-building community. I know the information has been shared here on THR, but if you want more examples, search on www.akfiles.org.

Or look it up on the BATFE's site.

-Sam

deadin
June 19, 2009, 11:31 AM
At what point would you need to get a SOT if you built and sold?
At some number you are going to be considered a manufacturer.
More than one a year or what?

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2009, 11:33 AM
Yes, you can sell them but as I posted above you open yourself to potential problems.

If you decide to sell you risk:

Trouble for improper engraving, identification of the manufacturer, serial number etc.

Trouble for being called a true "manufacturer". You sell one gun maybe no problem. Do it a few times and you might call down the wrath.

Trouble for potential tax violations for not collecting the excise tax if they do hang the term "manufacturer" on you.

So tread very lightly. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea :)

At what point would you need to get a SOT if you built and sold?
At some number you are going to be considered a manufacturer.
More than one a year or what?

There is no specific number. The ATF says vaguely:

The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of
trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing
firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

They also define "in the business", basically they say if you are attempting it as your prime source of income.
ETA:

Definition of "business" posted below.

Should be clear but it's vague enough for them to have attempted to hang it on people in the past.

Just be very careful.

Class 2 SOT is an entirely different animal. That's a Special Occupational Tax and is required if you are going to make machineguns.

The SOT is in addition to the Manufacturers FFL.

Sam1911
June 19, 2009, 11:37 AM
At what point would you need to get a SOT if you built and sold?
At some number you are going to be considered a manufacturer.
More than one a year or what?

Unfortunately, that's BATFE's little secret. If they codify a number that's o.k., then they'll be encouraging folks to actually DO it.

If they leave it up in the air, they can prosecute you if they feel you deserve it. One...Fifty...somewhere in between, and up to them. :mad:

It boils down to intent. You may not build a gun with the intent to sell it without holding a manufacturer's license. But you can build a gun and then choose to sell it later -- that's o.k. Who's to say when your intent changed? Did you install the last screw and then say, "naaah, I don't want it?" Did you buy the parts kit thinking, "I'm going to make $500 on building this gun for someone?" Hard to prove innocense.

-Sam

TexasRifleman
June 19, 2009, 11:43 AM
t boils down to intent. You may not build a gun with the intent to sell it without holding a manufacturer's license.

That is not correct either.

The law IS codified, but it would be for a jury to decide.
It has nothing to do with intent. You may build a gun with the specific intent of selling it as long as you don't meet the definition of "in business".

The legal definition is in 18 USC 44

21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.


So, it's written down, but it's going to be left to a jury.

It's a roll of the dice potentially.

nalioth
June 19, 2009, 11:55 AM
Something that's not been mentioned yet, but if you sell a home build, you are assuming the liability that some idiot isn't gonna shoot themselves in the foot and sue you.

The manufacturers maintain huge insurance policies for this.

Sam1911
June 19, 2009, 12:10 PM
That is not correct either.

The law IS codified, but it would be for a jury to decide.
It has nothing to do with intent. You may build a gun with the specific intent of selling it as long as you don't meet the definition of "in business".


Hmmm. My mistake. Thanks for the citation.

I've extrapolated too far, but I think we're heading in the same direction. I wouldn't trust the "principal objective of livlihood and profit" clause to keep my butt out of trouble. That text could be read (and maybe even SHOULD be enforced) as though you could have a little side concern where you did this regularly. But I don't think that would be defensible.

-Sam

ILikeLead
June 19, 2009, 06:05 PM
WHile it is legal to ferment alcohol for personal use, it is not legal to DISTILL any amount without permits, liscenses, certain equipment, etc...

Sorry for the hijack, but I hate to let misinformation go by without correction.

If you enjoyed reading about "Build your own?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!