[arcticap]

This interesting new article claims that Savage cheapened the design of the breech plug of their smokeless muzzle loader which can cause gas cutting that can potentially lead to catastrophic consequences.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

[madd trapper]

I have a Savage MLII and its a good rifle. Taken some deer with it. Toby Bridges has a wealth of knowledge about Muzzleloaders. Friends have warned me about Savages Blowing up . Always thought it was operator error, using duplex charges or failing to seat sabot.Looks like I will be calling Savage next week.

[AdmiralB]

Toby Bridges has a wealth of knowledge about Muzzleloaders.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but after reading the link, I did some research.

It seems Mr. Bridges ran into legal problems that precluded continued employment with Savage. No idea what they were, other than criminal, but a felony record (and I'm not implying he is a convicted felon, just exploring possibilities) wouldn't be much use working for a firearms company.

Anyway, after ten years working with the gun, immediately after these difficulties and the acrimonious loss of his job...his gun explodes?

Look at those pics...he had his cheek to that stock when it went, and he's not hurt?

Beggars belief, IMO. One hard-to-believe event might be OK, this is a series that's just too tough to swallow.

[madd trapper]

I did hear that too, Toby Bridges being let go from his job at Savage. Savage has done extensive testing with MLI and MLII rifles trying to get blow ups. I've heard of barrels bulgings from a Savage Forum. But what is going to fail first in this rifle would be the sabot. I think if people use common sense and follow Savage recommendations on loads and bullets it will be allright. But some people like to experiment with duplex charges and tighter fitting bullets/sabots.The rifle with Savage's recommended loads with right scope and shooting conditions can easily shoot out to two hundreds or more . I have taken deer out to a 180 yds with this rifle .I have to agree looking at those pictures and I'm amazed the shooter wasn't injured .

[arcticap]

Quoted from the article:

At least a half-dozen other shooters witnessed the incident, along with about twenty Missouri conservation officers who were at the range to qualify with their handguns that afternoon....

....The rifle that blew on me had more than 6,000 rounds through it. However, I had replaced the breech plug after every 500 to 600 rounds. But as I discovered the more I scrutinized the blown rifle and the other Model 10ML II rifles I was shooting at the time - replacing the breech plug DOES NOT remedy the design flaw that is built into this high pressure muzzleloader....


A lot of what he says makes perfectly good sense. But then if the problem is widespread and serious, we'd probably be hearing about more of the Savages blowing up.

But safety is an issue that's important to everyone and it's better to be aware and cautious then to not be at all.
This reminds me of a professional saying that goes, "In medicine anything is possible." That's because inexplicable medical occurances happen on a regular basis. Just because an event might only happen to some guns doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at all. It just means that it only happens to some guns and someone should examine some of the possible factors about why it happens to some and not others.
I've also heard that it's a known fact that the right harmonics and certain vibration frequencies can bring down certain types of bridges just like human voice waves can shatter glass.
So I don't think that any possible causes for the exploded Savages should be discounted just because of who Toby Bridges is. Maybe he is a "David" going up against a "Goliath", and I'm not betting against him. :)

[AdmiralB]

Yes, anything is possible. But is it probable?

Is it probable that the gun would fail, right after he parted ways (acrimoniously) with Savage?

Doesn't pass a smell test, IME.

[arcticap]

He states that there were witnesses at the range and quite honestly, I've never been able to smell anything coming through my internet connection. :D

[AdmiralB]

He says that. Have any been heard from?

How many ML10s are in circulation? Thousands? Tens of thousands? I have no idea.

So one gun has blown up. Small odds, one in thousands.

What are the odds that someone experiences a catastrophic failure like that and is uninjured? Less than 50% I bet.

How many ML10s are owned by people who worked for Savage? A VERY small percentage I bet.

How many of those people no longer work for Savage? Some percentage, might be a lot, might not.

How many of those who do not, left Savage on bad terms?

Multiply all those odds up, throw in a modifier for the fact that it happened RIGHT at the time he parted with Savage...sorry.

If it REALLY happened, he'd have a helluva basis for a lawsuit.

If the design is really that poor, why (since this apparently happened years ago) wouldn't Savage change the design? It wouldn't cost that much.

It also appears that Mr. Ball disavows Toby's story, too.

[mykeal]

I don't own, nor do I have any reason or intent to own, a Savage muzzleloader, so I really have no interest in the veracity of Mr. Bridges' claim.

If it REALLY happened, there actually be little basis for a lawsuit, as the only damages were to the gun itself. If Bridges had been injured, then he'd have basis, but it's a pretty clear point of law that if there are no damages, then there's no claim. You don't get to sue just because you filled your pants.

If the design is really that poor, why wouldn't Savage change the design? Because to do so would put into discoverable fact that Savage considered the design poor. It's an admission of fault, and if there ever was a failure causing injury Savage would be virtually defenseless. It's a sad fact that in today's litigious society designers often compromise design improvements out of fear of the lawyers.

The most cogent argument on either side of the debated is that there is only this one claimed instance. It begs credibility when there aren't more occurrences.

[AdmiralB]

Well, after much consideration...I think Mr. Bridges' crusade is not having the intended effect.

I just ordered a 10MLBTSS-II.

[arcticap]

Good for you, it's one of the most accurate & easiest to clean muzzle loaders made.
Enjoy shooting it! :)

[madd trapper]

I'm keeping my Savage MLII and will be using it for hunting. The Savage is well built muzzleloader. After reviewing those pictures I find it hard to believe no one was injured in this mishap.The barrel really looks like an obstruction was in the barrel when fired .To cause that kind of damage.Savage has a pressure hole in the receiver ring to relieve high pressure. To prevent high pressure gases flowing back into the operator's face.Really if you stay with Savages recommended loads , you can't go wrong .If you do everything on your part the Savage's loads has the power to take a deer out to 300 yards.

[AdmiralB]

Good for you, it's one of the most accurate & easiest to clean muzzle loaders made.


Thank you, sir. I was this close (holds thumb and finger really close together) to buying a TC Omega with the laminated thumbhole, but then I figured...the ML10 can do everything the Omega can, but the converse is not true.

[4v50 Gary]

Whether you believe him or not, pull your Savage breechplug and check it. It's the prudent thing to do.

[Mr_Pale_Horse]

the ML10 can do everything the Omega can, but the converse is not true
Really? I thought there were a handful of states where you could use one but not the other, or have regulations changed?

[arcticap]

Some states don't allow hunting with the 209 primer, enclosed actions, scopes, electronic ignitions, certain projectiles and/or smokeless powders.
But the Savage ML10 can be used with black powder in those states that simply won't allow it to be used with smokeless powder, with "smokeless powder" being the operative words.

[driftrider]

My breechplug is fine. The only part that gets gas cut if the vent liner that the primer flash goes through, and it's a replacable wear item and intended as such. I've got at least 200 rounds through my 10ML-II, and I see no signs of gas cutting. The only one gassing anything is Toby Bridges.

So lets review this situation. Toby Bridges works for Savage testing and reporting on the 10ML-II rifle. He, by his own claim, has over 20k shots through 10ML's, including 6K through the one he blew up, all without incident. Bridges was well known for testing charges that are well outside anything that Savage recommends for the rifle, including duplex and triplex charges that can be VERY unpredictable and dangerous, and publishing such tests despite being instructed not to do so by Savage (for obvious liability reasons).

Add to this that Bridges had made demands of both Savage and Henry and Bill Ball (the designer and his son) to pay him more money, including a letter that he sent to Bill Ball threatening blackmail with just such an incident as a catastrophic failure. Savage and the Balls tell Bridges to go blank himself for insubordination and breach-of-contract. Shortly after he's canned by Savage, he published photos of one of his 10ML-II's (with 6K shots already through it safely), that had mysteriously blown up just days before he was canned, with with what Bridges claims to be a Savage recommended load which he never used.

He also claims that he was shouldering the rifle when it happened, and that he was so shaken he lost sleep over it, which is funny considering that Bill Ball has said that Bridges called him right after the "incident" and was laughing about it. It's also strange (nothing short of an honest-to-God miracle, really) that Bridges escaped without so much as a scratch, given the severity and location of the damage to the rifle.

Bridges claims (despite have absolutely NO background in gunsmithing, engineering, applied physics or any other qualifying technical field) that the failure was caused by the unthreaded end of the breechplug somehow trapping high pressure gas that caused the failure. The problem with that is threefold. First, if the barrel can withstand the full pressure of the gas, so can the portion of the barrel where the breechplug is. Secondly, if the breechplug is tightened properly, the "snout" portion fits inside the barrel and the shoulder of the plug is firmly butted against an adjoining surface in the barrel, creating a de facto seal that would keep significant amounts of gas out of that area, and also eliminate any gas cutting. Gas cutting requires that a significant amount of hot gas FLOWS through a gap of sufficient size. Even if the gas can get by that shoulder, the breechplug is sealed by the threads behind is providing nowhere for gas to flow to. A tiny amount of gas flows in and then stops as the pressure equalizes. Thirdly, if you look at the picture, it's readily apparent that the failure occured well forward of the breechplug, which is still intact and remaining in the barrel. What it looks to me like is a double load and/or bore obstruction just ahead of where the powder and bullet would be seating in a properly loaded rifle. If that is the case, then the cause of the failure is clearly shooter error for failing to detect and clear a bore obstruction or double loading the rifle. Even the finest CF rifle will blow up if there is a bore obstruction, but that is no indictment on the rifle for the failure.

So here are the facts about the Savage:

It is the ONLY muzzleloading production rifle that EVERY gun produced is proofed to CF cartridge standards. When you go buy a T/C, Knight, Traditions, CVA, White, etc... the first person to fire that rifle is YOU. If there is a flaw in the barrel, you are the proof tester that will find it (the hard way). These makers only proof test a sampling of the barrels that are made. Savage proofs EVERY gun, no exceptions.

Savage pressure tested the 10ML-II to 129,000 PSI repeatedly during development, without a single catastrophic failure. To those who don't know, the hottest SAMMI spec magnum CF rifle cartridges don't exceed 65,000 PSI.

There are hundreds of thousands of 10ML and ML-II rifles out there, and they've been in production for over 10 years, and yet there is but one confirmed catastrophic failure, the circumstances of which are highly suspicious.

The only "problem" with the Savage is that it gives folks all the rope they need to hang themselves. If you look at the various 10ML forums, you see a large population experimenting with loads that are WAY beyond the few fully tested safe loads that Savage has published in the Owners Manual. Yet, I've yet to see one credible post my someone stating to have suffered a similar catastrophic failure from their rifle.

I trust my 10ML-II, enough that I wouldn't think twice about letting my wife or kids shoot it (if they were old enough). I also follow Savage's recommended bullet and powder recommendations. I get very good performance (about the same as a 150gr T7 charge), with ZERO fouling and no need for hasty cleanup. In fact, I sight my gun in at the end of Sept, and leave the bore as-is until January. No fouling shot necessary.

Oh, and if this one incident is enough to dissuade you from buying a 10ML-II, would you buy a Sako rifle? The answer should be no, given the rash of blown up guns that occured with the Finn Lite model a couple years back. In that case, there were MANY rifles that blew up because of a bad batch of barrel blanks they got from their foundry that weren't properly heat treated. The problem was isolated and has been corrected, but it makes you think. In Savages case, there has only been one such incident. I'm not going to panic about one incident. All guns can be blown up under the right circumstances.

Mike

[alsaqr]

Within the past few days posts have been made on several sites with this same subject. The very first post by the OP on this site was about the Savage muzzleloader.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3450576

I do not have a dog in this hog hunt. Do not even own a Savage muzzleloder. For over 45 years I have dealt with propellants and high explosive as an EOD man. Have made lots of pipe bombs for instructional and research purposes. These bombs used every type of popular propellant. The Savage muzzleloader shown on that site was not blown up with a recommended load of smokeless powder. Intentionally or otherwise, that gun was turned into a pipe bomb.

Look at the blue colored area inside the rear of the barrel. That is where the charge was when the gun went off. That powder charge was 2.25-2.5 inches long. A charge that long was well in excess of any recommended load. The Savage muzzleloader has been fired using a huge charge of Alliant 2400 with no damage to the gun or shooter. 2400 is not to be used in that gun.



http://www.gunblast.com/Muzzleloading.htm

Now for the one and only critic of the Savage muzzleloader who has extensively used the rifle; that being Toby Bridges. I have never met Mr. Bridges, but have corresponded with him. He was for years the preeminent proponent of the Savage muzzleloader, and I mention him here only because of recent developments regarding his relationship with that firearm. Recently, Mr. Bridges experienced a catastrophic failure with a Savage muzzleloader using smokeless powder. This concerned me, because I own and use an identical rifle. Mr. Bridges has published this incident on the internet, and is now advising against the use of the Savage, after years of promoting the rifle.

I want to preface my following thoughts on this matter by stating that I have no dog in this fight, and this is just my opinion, after investigating this matter as best as I could. There are, however, a few facts that pertain to the relationship of Toby Bridges and Savage Arms. Mr. Bridges worked for Savage, with the job of testing and promoting the 10MLII muzzleloader. He has fired more rounds through Savage muzzleloaders than anyone to my knowledge. After a few incidents that are none of my business resulted in Mr. Bridges having a falling out with the inventor of the rifle and a run-in with the law, Mr. Bridges also was fired by Savage Arms, for failure to perform his job, and having a really poor attitude. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Bridges suddenly had a 10ML blow up while he was supposedly testing it. The gun was utterly destroyed, but the shooter was not scratched. He was supposedly shooting a safe load in the gun; one which in fact I have exceeded many times. Now Mr. Bridges declares the Savage unsafe. This is, keep in mind, after he was let go by Savage Arms. I have seen pictures of the destroyed rifle. There is no way short of a divine miracle that someone could have been sitting behind that rifle with his cheek pressed to the stock, and have not been seriously injured. My opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it, is that the gun was intentionally blown up.

[Miles J]

I likewise have been following this information on the Savage 10 ML-II, as I was interested in purchasing this muzzleloader. I found the following information helpful in making an informed decision.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/96998-savage-10ml-ii-may-have-big-problem-3.html

http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm

I have now been using this muzzleloader for two years and I'm quite impressed with it's capabilities.