[fmjcafe]

I saw that my local Steak and Shake restaurant has banned CCW. Here`s a copy of the e mail I sent them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am a regular customer of your restaurant located in Ballwin, MO. As you may know, MO. recently passed a law allowing law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. One facet of the law is that businesses may post a sign banning concealed weapons from the premises.

I was very disappointed, on a recent visit, to see such a sign posted at your Ballwin store. What I would like to know, is this a corporate policy or are individual franchisees allowed to make the decision to ban concealed weapons from their stores. If it is a corporate policy, I would like to know why Steak and Shake feels that allowing a law abiding citizen that has gone through a seven day waiting period with a background check to obtain a permit to purchase a concealable weapon, followed by an eight hour gun safety course, followed by further background checks by the MO. highway patrol and the FBI, poses a hazard to the safety of your employees and customers.

As you surely know, criminals don`t submit to the above mentioned process and don`t respect signs banning them from entering your stores with their weapons. Perhaps they will even be enticed to choose a posted business for a robbery knowing that the customers and staff are unarmed. If that turns out to be the case and the unthinkable happens and patrons or employees are wounded or killed in a robbery, Steak and Shake may find itself liable. By restricting a person from carrying their legal concealed weapon into your store, you have assumed responsibility for their safety.

Finally, as a twenty year customer of Steak and Shake, I will no longer patronize any of your stores that display a sign banning law abiding citizens from entering one of your restaurants with a legal concealed weapon and also will be compelled to make your position known to my family members and friends that choose to go through the process for obtaining a license to carry.

I look forward to your reply,

[AZRickD]

Good activism. Most wouldn't bother writing.

Rick

[JPM70535]

I don't know if this is Corporate policy or not, but I have not seen signs posted at any of the Steak and Shakes in the Central Florida area, but having read your post I am certainly going to check more closely. If I find a ban on CCW I will have eaten my last burger there.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT INSURES ALL THE OTHERS!!!

[Logistar]

Well done!

Logistar

[4v50 Gary]

Been to Steak & Shake once and once was enough. I'll find a Cracker Barrel instead (and if in Tennessee, Papa Catfish).

[rock jock]

Funny little thing about that restaurant. First time I saw their sign I thought it said "Steak and Snake". I kept wondering who would eat at a place that served up beef and reptiles.

[dkochan]

Ignore the signs and carry anyway. If you are carrying concealed, no one will know.

[Mike Irwin]

Is that chain wide, or just the local ground cow restaurant?

I don't get to the midwest often, but when I do, I ALWAYS go to Steak and Shake. Fantastic burgers...

[gunsmith]

The outcome of your letter,and all pertinent phone numbers and Emails
so we can all advise them our dollars are going elswhere!

[Logistar]

Ignore the signs and carry anyway. If you are carrying concealed, no one will know. I have no real problem doing that (it is legal in Kentucky unless asked to leave) but I'd rather send a message that I will not support this attitute.

Therefore I will try REALLY hard to avoid these locations and let them know why as well.


Logistar

[cordex]

Some friends and I generally get together at S&S about once a week and we're pretty close with the late-night manager and waitresses. I carry there all the time (though I don't believe I've ever been "made"). There are no posted "No gun" signs at the one I go to.
If I remember, I'll ask the manager if she knows about any corporate policy regarding firearms.

[tiberius]

Good letter - keep up the diligence.

Around here they don't have any signs, which is a good thing because they do have the best fast food burgers around.

[ARperson]

I don't think it's a corporate policy. I saw my first non-LEO open carry when I was about ten in a Steak n' Shake.

Could it be a franchise situation where each is independently owned and operated? If so, there's a lot of leeway to make such limitations.

[fmjcafe]

I haven`t heard back from S&S yet but there is another location a couple miles down the road from the one in Ballwin. I`ll run by there this evening and see if it`s posted.

[chrisinmo]

fmjcafe.

Good post. How are you? We met at John Ross' range for qualification.

I must be lucky or unobservant because I have not started seeing any of these signs pop up in South County.

I agree with the above post that carrying anyway lets the owners of posted businesses think their anti gun stance is ok with people. I like the idaes of the letter as well as the No guns = No money cards that other states have used. That is hard evidence for them that there was a person in their store who feels strongly enough to drop one of the cards. Imagine a business owner who starts finding these business cards in thier cash drawers or stapled to their guest checks explaining that based on their no CCW stance they will not be getting business from that customer any longer. I like the idea of both. I may even put a form letter on my computer to plug in the name of the business then print, sign and mail it. But the card in hand is another idea I really like. I may have to odrer up a run of them.

[Futo Inu]

Good on ya. Let us follow your example.

[Standing Wolf]

I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots. I'd write to the owners of any businesses that posted such signs, but haven't encountered any.

[fmjcafe]

I checked out another local S&S and it wasn`t posted so it appears that the individual franchisees are free to act as they see fit. I`m still waiting to hear from the corporation.

[fmjcafe]

I just got off the phone with the manager of the S&S outlet in Ballwin and he told me that posting the signs was a corporate decision. They have not replied to my e mail yet.

Here`s a link to their web site:
http://www.steaknshake.com/default-home.asp

Also here is contact info for the Missouri / Kansas Division:

Missouri, Kansas
Division Office
12173 Prichard Farm Road
Maryland Heights, MO 63043
fax: (314) 298-8218
phone: (314) 298-1323

Let em have it.

[fmjcafe]

More info:

I just called the division office and a very polite man told me that the signs would be coming down. He said that some other people had gotten involved and the legal dept. advised that the signs be removed. I guess we will have to wait and see on that, but to me as long as my local outlet is posted I have a problem. I`ll call again tomorrow during regular business hours and see if I get the same story.

[cordex]

Very interesting.
Keep us informed.

[tiberius]

I doubt Lubby's is posting these signs. :)

[Quartus]

Good work, fmj. Nicely done letter and good follow-up. Thank you.


Keep us posted...

[morganm01]

Just a suggestion,

Next letter, include a blurb about the Killeen, TX woman who was in Luby's and had her CCW handgun in her car as a psycho ran around and shot everyone killing a lot of people including her father. Quick search should find the story.

[C.R.Sam]

Good work fmjcafe.

Sam

[4v50 Gary]

One man lobbygroup in the manner of Jim March. Bravo fmjcafe!

[tiberius]

The Luby's massacre happend in 1991 so any handgun in the car would have been just as illegal as one on the person. Which of course makes the law even more ridiulous, but won't help your case regarding Steak & shake.

[clange]

Good work, but i'd hold off for awhile until we find out what the deal is with the law. I bet there will be a lot more signs going up, should the law be upheald, as well as more people ready and willing to give them hell. If it doesnt go into effect the signs will come down anyway (cause we lost where it counted).

[Brian Dale]

Good point, clange. In fact, if other restaurants post CCW prohibition signs, you'll be able to tell them,

"I'm going to Steak & Shake instead. They value the rights and the safety of their customers, and they let ALL of their patrons benefit from the choice of some customers to carry. In fact, if posting your establishment ends up attracting criminals here, I'm glad that I'll be over at Steak & Shake. Thanks for the warning, and have a nice day."

Well Done, fmjcafe!

[fmjcafe]

One man lobbygroup in the manner of Jim March.

:what:

I`m not worthy!

[fmjcafe]

Here is Steak and Shake`s reply to my e mail:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for raising your concern regarding the "concealed weapons"
issue in Missouri. We always appreciate hearing from our loyal guests and
we make every effort to fairly address each concern we receive.

As you probably know, in conjunction with the Missouri legislature's
decision to allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons, the
legislature carved out numerous exceptions including a broad exception
allowing businesses "open to the public" to post signs prohibiting
concealed weapons on their premises. After carefully considering whether
to post such signs, we as a company concluded that our concern for the
safety of our guests and employees compelled us to exercise our rights
outlined in the statute and post the signs. We certainly realize the
"right to bear arms" is an undeniable, constitutionally protected right;
unfortunately, as a company charged with providing a safe environment to
our guests and employees, we are forced to consider "worst case" scenarios
and focus on the inevitable reality that some people will abuse their
rights under this statute, perhaps tragically. We cannot allow that risk
to endanger our employees and guests.

I hope you appreciate the consideration we have given to this issue.
We have a sixty-nine year history of serving millions of guests who are
consistently loyal to us. We hope you will continue to be one of our loyal
guests.

Kindest regards

:banghead:
Their contact info is a few posts above....

[Quartus]

Well, their position is clear - they are anti-safety.


Morons.

[cordex]

I said ...
An associate living in Missouri has informed me that Steak 'n Shake restaurants in his area have recently been putting up signs prohibiting law-abiding customers from carrying concealed weapons while dining, apparently in response to a recently passed (though stalled in court) bill which would allow citizens who pass certain background checks and training requirements to obtain a permit to legally carry a handgun for self- protection.

He reported that after contacting your organization, he was led to believe that this is a corporate policy rather than a local one, and that Steak 'n Shake feels that they must establish this prohibition in order to ensure the safety of their customers.

As a long time and extremely frequent visitor to your Indiana locations (especially the Avon area), I am greatly concerned by this turn of events. Just last week I visited a Missouri branch of your restaurant (though didn't notice the sign in question) and might well do so in the future. I am well known to the night crew at the Avon location and I like to think of myself as a valued customer. I intend to speak with the manager of that location to determine if I will continue to do business with your organization.

I routinely carry a handgun whereever I am legally allowed, to include my visits to Steak 'n Shake. The friends I meet there often do the same. Though I respect the right of private businesses to deny service to anyone they wish - including those who lawfully carry guns - I'm saddened that you no longer wish to do business with myself or any other overwhelmingly law- abiding citizens that choose to carry a weapon for defending themselves.

I have some questions for you on this subject.
1. Is this policy intended to have any effect on members of your chain outside of Missouri?
2. Does Steak 'n Shake take legal responsibility for the safety of its disarmed customers while they are dining there? What provisions are taken to ensure this safety?
3. Is it the belief of your company that someone who has passed State and Federal background checks, and follow the laws that govern them are a threat to other customers or employees?

Thank you,

Hmmm ... their corporate headquarters are very close to school ... I may walk over there some time and see if I can have a chat with them about this.

[Steel]

As you surely know, criminals don`t submit to the above mentioned process and don`t respect signs banning them from entering your stores with their weapons. Perhaps they will even be enticed to choose a posted business for a robbery knowing that the customers and staff are unarmed


Good point!

[tiberius]

What really makes me sad about the response is that Steak and Shake has a history much like Luby's that should make them strong supporters of legal carry.

I couldn't find a reference on line because it happened before the WWW, but when I was an undergrad at the University of Florida, in Gainesville Florida, in the late 1980's there was a grisly murder at the local S&S. It seems that a disgruntled employee came it at closing time, forced the 4 or 5 people working at the time into the freezer at gun point and executed them all with head shots. It has ever since been known in Hogtown as "Murder burger" or "Steak and Shoot". Think what a legal concealed handgun could have done in this case.

The only only online reference I could find using Google was from some haunted places site....no real news stories :(

http://theshadowlands.net/places/florida.htm

Gainesville - Steak and Shake on 13th Street- Five people were murdered in the wee hours of the morning inside the walk-in freezer by a disgruntled employee. Current employees will not stay in there alone anytime of day or night.

[clange]

Well if the law goes through and they dont change their policy they're going to get a lot more attention (from myself included).

[Henry]

I just finished sending them a polite e-mail advising that I will not patronize their restuarants given their policy. I know that my e-mail is only "a drop in the bucket", but they add up. Hopefully, they will reconsider this policy.

[cordex]

Okay, at first I got the same boilerplate email as FMJCafe, so I tried again.
Today I got this:
Dear Mr. ********:
My name is Barry Paige and I am Associate Counsel for the Steak n
Shake Company. Thank you for contacting us regarding the signs we posted recently forbidding concealed weapons in our Missouri restaurants. After carefully considering your concerns (which were similar to concerns raised by other Missouri Steak n Shake guests), we have reconsidered our previous position and have removed the signs forbidding concealed weapons. We hope you understand the reason we took our initial action and, correspondingly, we hope you will continue to visit our restaurants. Thank you for your concern. I wish you well with your future endeavors. B. Paige
Starting to look better.
My particular email was bounced from Taritha Braun to Dave Milne to Barry Paige (they left the forward stubs and notes in).

Don't give up after you get a form letter. Keep pressing and sometimes you'll get through to somebody.

[fmjcafe]

Outstanding!

[bogie]

The thing to remember here is that MOST of these folks are not anti-gun. They're fence sitters, generally don't know a lot about the issue, and they tend to "knee jerk" in the direction of perceived safety. Be polite, be courteous, be informative, and be firm.

[Brian Dale]

Well Done, fmjcafe and cordex!

[bigjim]

OK now we need top flood them with thank you letters for changeing their position.

Then we need go eat there and email scans of the dinner receipts.

I will do so next time I am any where near one of those places.

[sobrespetsnaz]

A few months ago 2 employees at a steak and shake in the city were executed by some former employees who raided the cash register.

[mljdeckard]

fmjcafe and cordex did it absolutely right. THIS is the kind of effort required to keep the momentum on our side.

What dkochan is suggesting is the absolute WRONG way to do it. On THR, we follow the law. PERIOD.

[Treo]

And?

[rondog]

What dkochan is suggesting is the absolute WRONG way to do it. On THR, we follow the law. PERIOD.

BIG difference between a law and a corporate policy. I will carry. PERIOD.

[Treo]

Hey guys this thread is over FIVE YEARS OLD

[mljdeckard]

Depending on the state you live in, corporate policy IS the law.

[twoclones]

Ignore the signs and carry anyway.

I think it was important that the letter be written. Would have been better if 500 letters were written and they felt it on their bottom line.

[Starcheck55]

Hey guys this thread is over FIVE YEARS OLD


posting here is a double edged sword. if you start a new thread about something, invariably someone will pull the old "don't you know how to use a search function?"

so this time instead of starting a new thread they found the old one.
:shrug:

[Oro]

so this time instead of starting a new thread they found the old one.

No, the new thread posting was about a robbery/murder. That was different than the original discussing CC policy.

It's entirely not the same as the perennial non-search threads like:

"What is the best 1911"
"Discuss 9mm vs. .45"
and of course:
"What's the best Zombie gun?"

Year or more old threads should be like old Soldiers - just let them fade away. Or better yet, lock them shut.

[Guns and more]

Well written. I'm sure some corporate suit thinks a sign will ban all firearms or that somehow the sign will negate a lawsuit when the shooting is over.

[twoclones]

Hey guys this thread is over FIVE YEARS OLD

Yet it is more relevant than ever. Americans need to stand up and be counted because loosing any one of our rights from the Bill of Rights will endanger the other nine.

[Prophet]

Agreed. If the thread had never been 'resurrected' (zombie thread? lol I know bad pun) I'd have never seen it nor would have any of the other newer members. This (that is, the original nature of the thread and not the resurrection of it, be it resurrected by an off-topic or on-topic post) is a prime example of what THR should be about. I sure wouldn't complain if we saw more of this same thing around here.

[Treo]

. Americans need to stand up and be counted because loosing any one of our rights from the Bill of Rights will endanger the other nine.

The Bill of Rights does not grant me a single right, it merely acknowledges rights I already have. I was "Endowed by my Creator W/ certain inalienable ( cannot be transfered to another including the state) rights, among (partial list does not include ALL my rights) these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This was acknowledged by the state over 13 YEARS before the BOR even existed.

I still want to know what a 5 Y/O thread has to do W/ a robbery now

[rabidgoldfish]

Brother,

They tore down the Steak and Shake on 13th in Gainesville where those people were murdered. They rebuilt a brand new store on the same lot about a year ago.