Getting a LAWFUL gun back from police in MASS?


PDA






theQman23
June 21, 2009, 04:09 PM
Hey fellow gun owners. I participated in a thread about travelling through Mass under the general discussions section of this forum. You can find my post on it by searching on my name, Quentin Mise .

Ok, this thread here is to ask the question, now that I am not convicted of any crimes while lawfully transporting my handgun through Massachusetts, what are the appropriate steps to getting my gun back?

During pre-trial my counsel asked the judge point blank about my getting my gun back. He answered, "I'm not getting in the middle of that. That issue is between you and the state police."

I couldn't understand that answer, for the life of me, I thought the judges ruled on these matters, and my gun belonged to me, and the police are holding it, and I was NOT found guilty, so what was the holdup with getting the gun back?

Ok, MAss is famous for never returning the guns back to the citizens after the trials are over. I have been laughed at by three people so far for even asking if I can have my gun back. Well now my tone has changed to, "I expect an answer and clear instruction on how I go about getting my gun back, since I am not Guilty of a crime, and since it's my property." Funny how that changes the tone of the conversation. Anyway, I have been told twice now to contact Sturbridge state police evidence officer Mogan on Monday morning about the issue, and to follow her instruction.

My concerns are based on three issues:

First, only seven miles away in a town called Holland, police chief Gleason was in big trouble for selling guns that allegedly did not belong to him. The link to that article is here:
http://www.01521.com/

Secondly, I have been told that the police will give the gun back when they want to, that they will return it after my CWOF charge drops, (two charges were flat out dropped to do eroneous charging, but one is pending six months of good behavior) and I have also been told that since I am not guilty now I am entitle to the return of my property, NOW. The police and court employees OBVIOUSLY don't have a plan in place to return a lawful gun back to its lawful owner after a trial or arraignment is decided. This is UNACCEPTABLE TO ME as a citizen.

Thirdly, the arresting officer, officer Simpkins of the State Police barracks in Sturbridge, was overheard, BY ME, in the other room of the barracks discussing the high desireability of the firearm as a "backup or off duty weapon" because it was a subcompact Glock 27 model. He further stated that he could get that weapon wholesale and for less than I paid for it, (he asked me what it cost me, and I disclosed the price I paid during the wrongful arrest that took place,) and it became clear to me that he would like to either "obtain" the firearm, or purchase it through the police system, from someone who is like Mr. Gleason, who is selling guns that don't belong to him.

If I have to drive back to Mass to get it back and they won't ship it, then fine, I"ll drive up again, but then how do I keep them from arresting me again for not having their concealed carry card. I was protected last time because I was on interstate travel, (see my other thread) but in this case of going to Mass to re-acquire my gun, my business is in MAss, not NH, therefore no federal protection exists and they can hand me my gun back, watch me drive out of the parking lot, and pop me again, and based on their behavior so far, I don't put it past them to do that very same thing again. Remember from my other post, I asked for a receipt when they confiscated my LAWFULLY OWNDED HANDGUN, and they refused to write me one and threatened me to leave the station when I aksed a second time.

If I don't have my gun back in very short order, and/or if they sell it to someone else, what type of suit am I eligible to file against them?

Sincerely,
-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13
For Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

If you enjoyed reading about "Getting a LAWFUL gun back from police in MASS?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
armoredman
June 21, 2009, 04:24 PM
File with FBI/ATFE, theft of a firearm in interstate travel? I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV - get with the NRA legal team for this one.

franconialocal
June 21, 2009, 04:32 PM
Well, your story is very dynamic and "personal" to you....so the advice you get may be all over the boards, but if my 2 cents is worth anything.......

In NH, after say a domestic dispute where one party has to relinquish any weapons/firearms if deemed so by the Judge signing the emergency protective orders, the only way you can get them back is by petitioning the court of appearance (AFTER you've settled all your legal mess) for return. It usually means going in months or years later and having a hearing in front of a judge to get them back. EVERY STATE WILL BE DIFFERENT so check with your local court, PD, etc. or TALK TO AN ATTY. for help.

I'm not an expert on all your problems with transport issues, state-to-state,
etc. so I'm not even going to touch it....

Hope this helps!

spyder1911
June 21, 2009, 04:36 PM
I am not a lawyer but I would suggest talking to a real lawyer that has passed the bar exam in MASS about this case. Sounds like you may have a case for getting your gun back but you need a lawyer that know what they are doing.


And also I would get this thread locked and deleted. Taking legal advice and commenting on a open/possible case online (theft of your gun) are NOT a good idea.

General Geoff
June 21, 2009, 04:37 PM
Call the FBI, report that your firearm has been stolen (which it has been) by a corrupt police department, and they refuse to return it to you.

If we have to live with the feds, we might as well use 'em for something good.

theQman23
June 21, 2009, 05:01 PM
All very good advise, thank you. Especially about locking or deleting this thread. Even though I am only quoting what the officer actually said himself, and drawing conclusions about illegal police activity seven miles away, I should probably let that mess square itself away without commenting on it. For all I know officer Simpkins never met Mr. Gleason, and/or has no knowledge of his selling guns that don't belong to him. I am however going to investigate what happens to MY GUN.
To anyone offended, I apologize. I do intend however to call officer Mogan on Monday, see what her instruction is, and more importantly than what the instruction is, can I get it in writing, then let the process proceed legally. If I can't get either an expediant return of my property, or at least a written, legal description of what needs to and/or will happen, then I will file suit with an attorney and let the chips fall.

Thank you all for your input.

-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13

mgkdrgn
June 21, 2009, 05:01 PM
Unless the State Police decide to co-operate, getting your gun back will likely cost far more than simply replacing it. There is also no guarantee as to what condition it will be in if you do get it back.

Does that bite? Yes it does. Welcome to reality.

Kindrox
June 21, 2009, 06:52 PM
I would be going ape**** on them. While I have not researched the issue, and probably would before doing the following, this is what I would try:

1. Report the as stolen, as it is at this point.
2. File a lawsuit to wrap up the whole package. Federal filing fees are around $300 plus about $50 to serve it. Learning how to defend your rights in court? Priceless.

30mag
June 21, 2009, 06:59 PM
Take it to the SCOTUS.
"In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction."

Please?

deadin
June 21, 2009, 07:36 PM
Qman,
Sounds to me that you are in kind of a twilight zone as far as the law goes.
Neither guilty nor not guilty. I had to look up what a Mass. CWOF was. Sounds a little more serious than you indicated. Especially the bit about staying on your record.

Massachusetts CWOF - Continuance Without a Finding

What is a CWOF in a Criminal Proceeding?

Under Massachusetts Criminal Laws, agreeing to a Continuance without a Finding is not the same as pleading guilty. Technically, it is an admission that "there are sufficient facts to find you guilty" of the charges. Pleading to a CWOF will happen at a pre-trial conference as part of a plea agreement, if your attorney can get the prosecutor to agree.

A continuance without a finding is also sometimes called a continuation without a finding, or a CWOF (pronounced "quaff"). It is similar to a nolo contendere, or no contest plea in other states. A continuance plea may be available to you in Massachusetts Criminal Courts if you are facing misdemeanor charges for drug or marijuana possession charges, assault, 1st offense OUI charges, many driving charges such as operating on a suspended license or without a license or insurance, reckless driving / operating to endanger, and other misdemeanor first offense MA criminal charges.
Why Agree to a CWOF?

If your case is continued without a finding, it can help you in cases where a finding of guilty would cause you problems in your career or educational opportunities. Some job applications ask you if you've ever been found guilty of a crime, and you can honestly answer "no". A guilty plea vs. a cwof may make a difference for certain law enforcement careers, security clearances, the right to own certain firearms, eligibility for certain scholarships or financial aid, or many other reasons.

A CWOF will not make any difference vs. a guilty plea if you are found guilty of the same offense in the future. It will stay on your record, and will absolutely be used against you in the future if you are charged with a second offense.

I might be tempted to keep a low profile until the 6 months are up before I started making a stink. Of course, as said by others, you can get a lawyer and end up paying him a couple of thou to recover a $500 gun. (Maybe)

I know, I know, it's the principle of the whole thing.:fire::cuss:

Old Fuff
June 21, 2009, 07:40 PM
There is an old saying among lawyers: "It isn't what you know, but what you can prove that matters."

You can call this Officer Mogan, but I suggest that you have the attorney that represented you in the subject case to do the calling. When your lawyer is on the other end of the line a lot of BS stops quickly.

You should remember that all of this occured in a state where in cases involving guns are concerned the authorities think they are above the law - and for all practical purposes they are.

Reporting the gun as stolen to the FBI, ATF&E, etc will get you nowhere. If they know that a police department has the gun they will do absolutely nothing.

You can discuss taking legal action to recover your property, but considering where the suit would be held I think it's a lost cause - and bringing an action would cost far, far more then replacing the pistol with a new one.

This is a sad affair, and I feel for you. Do speak with your attorney and see what he says.

danbrew
June 21, 2009, 07:59 PM
here's what I think I would do...


forget about getting the gun back - as others have said, it will cost far more to legally get the gun back than it is worth
i would report the gun stolen in your local jurisdiction and say nothing about the cops having seized it


perhaps at some point in the future the gun serial number will be run and it will come up with your stolen gun flag. at best you'll get the gun back. perhaps it will have been stolen from policy custody (hmmm... i wonder?) and you could stand a real chance of getting it back. you'd have to figure out what you'd say about how/when it was stolen, and - maybe - how you "got it back" from the cops in Mass. at worst, one of the men in blue will have to explain what he's doing with a stolen gun to somebody later on down the road. karma is a bitch.

that's what I'd do - you gotta make the call on what you'll do. i'd be pissed, but like somebody else pointed out, you didn't have the gun in a case and lucked out with how the whole issue was resolved. this should be a lesson to all of us to KNOW the gun laws of the areas in which we'll visit/transit. your issue is a perfect example of how luck can run out when you need it most. also, as a postscript, never agree to a search. had you said to the officer "nope, i've got no guns in the car" and not consented to the search, none of this would have happened.

Prince Yamato
June 21, 2009, 08:10 PM
If I have to drive back to Mass to get it back and they won't ship it, then fine, I"ll drive up again, but then how do I keep them from arresting me again for not having their concealed carry card. I was protected last time because I was on interstate travel, (see my other thread) but in this case of going to Mass to re-acquire my gun, my business is in MAss, not NH, therefore no federal protection exists and they can hand me my gun back, watch me drive out of the parking lot, and pop me again, and based on their behavior so far, I don't put it past them to do that very same thing again. Remember from my other post, I asked for a receipt when they confiscated my LAWFULLY OWNDED HANDGUN, and they refused to write me one and threatened me to leave the station when I aksed a second time.

That would be entrapment on their part. They can't force you to commit a crime.

Call the BATF. Say that your weapon is being illegally held by the police department and you have cause to believe that someone is going to sell it illegally. Cite the evidence that you heard. Give names.

ConstitutionCowboy
June 21, 2009, 08:15 PM
I recommend you do some research on Massachusetts law. Look for anything that directs law enforcement or more likely the Attorney General to return such property. It may not exist. I wouldn't put it past the legislature up there(my home state, by the way) to completely ignore such matters. They'll pass law to confiscate, try, and punish and "forget" to add in returning confiscated property.

Woody

jjohnson
June 21, 2009, 08:40 PM
Just for what it's worth, I was a material witness some years ago in some long operations run by the FBI, and found that the 3 Assistant US Attorneys I worked with (New York, Texas, California) were outstanding people - with a keen interest in real justice. None of these folks would countenance any shenanigans from anyone in Law Enforcement. Would it be worth a letter to the AUSA responsible for that area? Just a thought.

rscalzo
June 21, 2009, 08:43 PM
purchase it through the police system, from someone who is like Mr. Gleason, who is selling guns that don't belong to him.

Are you the only one that hasn't heard of the Glock LE Purchase program?

You are making accusations, many that seem to be without any evidence. By your own admission, your case is not closed. While it might be in six months at this point is it still a pending case.

Jim K
June 21, 2009, 09:07 PM
Rscalzo is right. You say one charge is pending good behavior. That sounds like what MD calls probation before judgment, which means that that charge has NOT been resolved, since there has been no judgment and thus no resolution. You have not been acquitted or the charge dropped, it is pending.

I assume you have a MA attorney (if you don't and defended yourself, you are, well, lucky but not smart). Turn the thing over to him and let him fight the battle. Also he should make sure that if the last charge is dismissed, there is no record of conviction that could prevent your buying guns in the future.

Jim

akodo
June 21, 2009, 09:16 PM
http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2009/06/ghosts-contraband-and-seeking-return-of.html

that blog has some info, see if you can find some leads there

I followed some of his links to his own posts and got to here

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-long-can-government-keep-seized.html

and here

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2006/11/seeking-return-of-seized-computers.html

Let’s start with a few basic principles. First, I’m going to assume we’re dealing only with evidence (property, tangible or intangible) that was lawfully seized in the execution of a search warrant. I’m also going to assume, as I explain below, that the evidence seized was used against you in a criminal proceeding; that is, I’m assuming you were charged with a crime and that your seized property was used against you at your trial on those charges. Evidence can also be lawfully seized if the owner consents to the seizure, but since the person who gives consent can withdraw it at essentially any time. I’m not sure consent seizures are at issue here.

The other basic principle is the default procedure the law establishes for getting back property that has been lawfully seized with a search warrant. I’m sure we’re all familiar with the process of moving to suppress evidence; that tends to be the scenario in most reported cases, because the stakes are a lot higher if and when you’re charged with a crime and they want to use your property against you. Here, the person filing the motion is not seeking the return of the seized property (though that could follow if the motion to suppress is granted); they’re trying to block its being used against them in a criminal case.

We’re not concerned with motions to suppress here; our concern is with whether the government can keep the evidence (property) they seized from you and then used against you. (I suppose we’re also concerned with the situation in which they use a search warrant to seize your property, charge you with crimes as to which that property constitutes evidence, and then you somehow get the charges dismissed, which ends the case.)


As I explained in an earlier post (“Seeking the return of seized computers”), the way you go about trying to get your seized property back if (i) you have not and clearly are not going to be charged with a crime or (ii) you have been charged with a crime, the evidence was used at trial, and you’ve been convicted, acquitted or got the charges dismissed somehow. The point is that we’re concerned only with (ii) because in (i) the government has absolutely no justification for hanging on to your property.

Basically, as I explained in that earlier post, you file what in the federal system is called a “Rule 41(g) motion,” because you file the motion under Rule 41(g) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Rule 41(g) says that a “person aggrieved . . . by the deprivation of property [seized by the government] may move for the property’s return.” If the court grants the motion, it returns the property; if it does not grant the motion, you don’t get your property back.
Nothing in the law is simple, but basically the rule is that a court should not grant a Rule 41(g)-style motion for the return of seized property as long as there is a criminal case “pending” against the owner, a case with regard to which the property is relevant as evidence. “Pending” seems to be construed broadly.


-end of cut and paste

anyways, I think if you go in and demand why they are holding your property and cite Rule 41g especially with a bunch of laws printed out, you should be able to get it back pronto.

If not, you probably have to have a lawyer fill out the real 41g

30mag
June 21, 2009, 09:18 PM
I think that if he is not found guilty (not to be confused with "found not guilty"), then the case would be done with.
I don't think 'pending six months of good behavior' is a sentence, considering he wasn't doing anything illegal in the first place.

This being said, it sounds as if the case has NOT been closed.

gripper
June 21, 2009, 09:55 PM
Contact goal.org,ask to speak to someone. hey are in Northboro Ma;IIRC .

theQman23
June 21, 2009, 10:32 PM
Thanks so much everyone for being so helpful. After reading all of the replies I am getting the feeling that because there is a six month waiting period for the charge of "not having a Mass FID card" while being in Mass, (even though their own laws have an exemption against that for out of state sport shooters.......) technically the whole shebang isn't truly over until I do the six months of good behavior. So if they want to hold it for six months there isn't much I can do about that I don't imagine. I just want the state police to put that in writing, so six months from now I don't run into "new problems or delays". I also don't want those officers getting their hands on my gun before that time, and then when the six months is up, OOPS< Sorry Mr. Mise, your gun is gone...........

I am not anti law enforcement at all. In fact, my employees and I are very, very pro-cop. My father in law is US Capital police, we have counties on both side of the family, and my employees have law enforcement close to them as well. I actually go target shooting with police officers, myself. And believe it or not, it is the officers in my own family, who are even more upset about this arrest and confiscation than I would have thought. They aren't mad because they are related to me, they are mad because they support lawful and responsible gun ownership, but as has been proved in Mass many times, if you aren't already a criminal as a gun owner in MAss, don't worry, the MAss police will make you one............

I mean for Lord's sake, there is an excemption clear as day for interstate transport if you're going sport shooting, but they flat out STILL took my gun and arrested me, and now won't give my gun back. If they are getting a bad reputation up there for insane aggression against non-violent citizens, well....... so be it. Their actions are just of the negativity they are receiving.

Thanks so much for all of the support, and information.

Good Luck, I'll let you all know tomorrow what Officer Mogan says.

-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13

bigalexe
June 21, 2009, 10:47 PM
The mafia stole your gun. They just happen to be a mafia backed by FBI/ATF, the Feds, and the US Military. There are a few options i see here:

1.) Lawyer up, spend the money, fight the Bureaucracy and one day after hundreds or thousands of dollars you may get your gun back in whole or in pieces provided it hasn't been "Lost" from the evidence room.

2.) Accept the fact that you aren't going to get it back, replace it. Probably the cheapest option.

3.) Armor up, gear up and go rambo to take what is rightfully yours. This option may lead to a legitimate arrest though and isn't recommended.

Moral: Sometimes the law isn't on the side of truth, its on the side of the guy who managed to obtain a blue uniform and car with fancy lights. Its not fair or right but it is.

30mag
June 21, 2009, 11:14 PM
Moral: Sometimes the law isn't on the side of truth, its on the side of the guy who managed to obtain a blue uniform and car with fancy lights. Its not fair or right but it is.
I absolutely agree.
Legality and Justice are two very, very different things.


Take it to the press?

danbrew
June 21, 2009, 11:22 PM
You probably actually cannot replace the gun at this time.

I don't recall the exact verbiage, but one of the questions on the 4473 is are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?

You're under indictment until the issue is resolved. Is the possible penalty more than one year in jail?

Honest? Sounds like your lawyer hasn't done a great job of helping you understand the implications of CWOF. Also, the fact that you are not at all anti-law enforcement hasn't much helped you in this situation. You were willing to believe that these LE folks were like the LE friends/family that you know. I'd wager to say that any of your family members in LE would tell you never to agree to a search, although they may be silent on the issue now that what's done is done. I'm not at all anti-LE, btw, and and was a cop for a few years before choosing another path - but the one thing I learned very early is that people put themselves in jail 99% of the time.

I do hope this works out for you, although I'd count on the gun being gone. I'd still report it stolen if for no other reason than to kick the cop who eventually steals it in the balls.

Bookworm
June 22, 2009, 10:29 AM
First, you need to chill out big time, QMan. One gun isn't the end of the world, and it can be replaced.

Secondly, I don't know if you have a court-appointed lawyer or your own hire. Hopefully court-appointed.

Part of their job is to advise you on recovering your property that had been confiscated during your arrest. Call your lawyer and get their legal opinion on the subject. Have them do the work, and follow up with their department or their bar association or whatever with a complaint if they will not.

Someone already stated you could file a motion with the judge where your cases were heard. You will send the prosecution a copy, and they will get to respond. The judge will rule. You will have paperwork trail there, so the gun cannot disappear. I'm betting you don't get it back until the 6 months are up - they're not going to give a gun to someone who has a gun related crime pending in their court system.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - (you actually "sounded" upset with your post) be calm and reasonable at all times.

Good Luck, and stay out of trouble. ;)

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 11:26 AM
First, you need to chill out big time, QMan. One gun isn't the end of the world, and it can be replaced.
As a general proposition, that is a HORRENDOUS attitude.

Assuming that he has a LEGAL right to the gun, why on earth should he allow somebody to STEAL it? If he has a LEGAL right to the gun, someone attempting to EXTRALEGALLY retain possession of it is THEFT.

When is it EVER a good idea to countenance theft, and especially theft by public servants?

He needs to bring this matter to a lawyer well versed in the relevant law. If he has no LEGAL right to the gun under the circumstances, a lawyer will tell him so. If he has a LEGAL right to the gun and somebody interferes with that right, that is a civil tort. Relief could include return of the property, compensation for the "conversion" of the property, compensation for negligent or intentional damage to the property, and reasonable legal fees incurred in recovering the property.

Encouraging theft has no conceivable upside.

deadin
June 22, 2009, 11:58 AM
Relief could include return of the property, compensation for the "conversion" of the property, compensation for negligent or intentional damage to the property, and reasonable legal fees incurred in recovering the property.

With a very large amount of emphasis on the "could".
Easy enough to say when someone else is footing the bills.:mad:

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 12:10 PM
Easy enough to say when someone else is footing the bills.
When you let somebody steal from you, you've ALREADY "footed the bill".

And that's not to mention the fact that you've given them an incentive to steal in the future.

When is encouraging theft a GOOD thing?

AirForceShooter
June 22, 2009, 12:10 PM
Go to the cop house and ask for it.

AFS

Bookworm
June 22, 2009, 12:16 PM
As a general proposition, that is a HORRENDOUS attitude.

Assuming that he has a LEGAL right to the gun, why on earth should he allow somebody to STEAL it? If he has a LEGAL right to the gun, someone attempting to EXTRALEGALLY retain possession of it is THEFT.

When is it EVER a good idea to countenance theft, and especially theft by public servants?

He needs to bring this matter to a lawyer well versed in the relevant law. If he has no LEGAL right to the gun under the circumstances, a lawyer will tell him so. If he has a LEGAL right to the gun and somebody interferes with that right, that is a civil tort. Relief could include return of the property, compensation for the "conversion" of the property, compensation for negligent or intentional damage to the property, and reasonable legal fees incurred in recovering the property.

Encouraging theft has no conceivable upside.


Did you even read my post? Do so again, more carefully. And stop getting him wound up, he doesn't need to deal with the police/judges all ticked off.

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 12:21 PM
Go to the cop house and ask for it.
1. Consult a lawyer first to see if you have a LEGAL right to the gun.

2. Bring a lawyer with you to pick up the gun.

Some people think it's fun to mess with somebody, off the record, who doesn't know the law.

It's rarely fun to mess with a lawyer, on the record, about a matter in which he's both well versed and well prepared.

Going to the cops and asking for the gun is a voluntary official interaction with the police. You should NEVER have voluntary official interactions with the police without legal counsel present.

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 12:26 PM
Did you even read my post? Do so again, more carefully. And stop getting him wound up, he doesn't need to deal with the police/judges all ticked off.
I wouldn't have seen the catastrophically bad advice without reading it.

HE shouldn't "deal with" the police/judges AT ALL. That's why there are lawyers.

Competent legal counsel will tell him whether he's LEGALLY entitled to get the gun back.

If he's LEGALLY entitled to get the gun back, letting somebody STEAL it is ALWAYS a bad idea, every bit as bad as Cabela's allowing people to steal guns out of their display cases.

When is encouraging THEFT a GOOD thing?

mgkdrgn
June 22, 2009, 12:45 PM
When you let somebody steal from you, you've ALREADY "footed the bill".

And that's not to mention the fact that you've given them an incentive to steal in the future.

When is encouraging theft a GOOD thing?

I believe the bottom line of his point is something like:

If the "solution" to a $500 problem costs $1,000, then no solution is the preferable course of action (ie, logical, least costly, etc, etc).

IF the OP has to get a lawyer involved in this, he's more than likely going to spend more on legal fees than the value of the gun, with -no- assurance that he will get the gun back, or get it back in usable condition.

Does that bite? Yes it does. Welcome to reality. (unless, of course, you are willing to pony up the $'s for the OP's legal fees)

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 12:54 PM
I believe the bottom line of his point is something like:

If the "solution" to a $500 problem costs $1,000, then no solution is the preferable course of action (ie, logical, least costly, etc, etc).

IF the OP has to get a lawyer involved in this, he's more than likely going to spend more on legal fees than the value of the gun, with -no- assurance that he will get the gun back, or get it back in usable condition.

Does that bite? Yes it does. Welcome to reality. (unless, of course, you are willing to pony up the $'s for the OP's legal fees)
Legal fees are often recoverable, sometimes by statute.

Again, encouraging theft is a general harm to society. Encouraging theft by public employees is a much worse detriment to society.

I can see no upside to encouraging theft.

Consulting competent legal counsel will tell you IF it's theft.

John Wayne
June 22, 2009, 12:54 PM
Maybe you could try the ACLU? It's just crazy enough to work.

I mean, if they can get a Jewish guy to defend neo-Nazis...

rrruuunnn
June 22, 2009, 12:59 PM
A friend got his glock confiscated by police in California. He is a Texas resident. When he picked up his gun, the lady said she's never seen a civilian get his/her gun back.

Good luck,

Deanimator
June 22, 2009, 01:10 PM
A friend got his glock confiscated by police in California. He is a Texas resident. When he picked up his gun, the lady said she's never seen a civilian get his/her gun back.
Perhaps nobody bothered to take the appropriate steps to get their gun back. What does that teach somebody who illegally tries to keep it? It certainly doesn't teach them to respect property rights under the law. Nobody seems to be able to tell me when breeding disrespect for the law is a GOOD thing.

A person who does not protect his rights under the law effectively has no rights.

You can be 100% in the right, but if you just roll over every time your rights are violated, anybody can do anything to you. And you can only expect the frequency and magnitude of that "anything" to increase over time. That's not the kind of society in which I choose to live.

1. Know the law.
2. Obey the law.
3. Know your legal rights.
4. Don't EVER let somebody violate your legal rights without a fight.

theQman23
June 23, 2009, 11:09 PM
Thank you all, so very, very much for your support in the matter. I know you folks disagree in the best plan of action, and that's ok, that's why I threw the question out to a public forum, and I thank you all and appreciate sincerely all of the advice. You all want to see a lawfully purchased gun returned to its rightful owner, and therefore you are all on my side. Thanks again.

I promised a report yesterday after I spoke with officer Mogan, and I apologize for not replying until today. This is a short outline of what she and I discussed yesterday afternoon.

Officer Mogan is the official state police evidence officer where my gun is being held. She was courteous, and kind enough to return my call after I left a message stating my attempt to reach her, and my inquiry as to how to get my gun back. This is a major step over and above any and all other police I've dealt with up there so far. In other words, this officer felt like she wanted to be helpful, and was not unkind or pushy about the situation.

She instructed me to wait out the six months while the cwof is pending. No surprise there, and I was actually not upset about that instruction, because I sort of expected it. But her second instruction was that I would need to get a concealed carry card in Mass before I could pick the gun up, since they can not lawfully hand it back to me without my having one. I said, "Yes Maim you can, there is an exemption for out of state target shooters going competition shooting in Mass, for out of state residents, and that is why I wasn't found guilty in court in the first place. You surely can legally hand it back to me, without contributing to a crime," and she respectfully, and carefully retorted that there was no way the police would hand a gun to any person, in or out of state resident, without a Mass issued carry card.

I then commented that I won't be able to get a card during the six months because one of the questions on their app will prevent it, since I am apparently "under information for a crime that has a potential max jail sent that exceeds one year" and her comeback to that was that I may have to wait out the six months, then apply after the cwof drops, then wait until the permit clears, (if it EVER does since I technically got arrested up there, and being found not guilty or dismissed does not guarantee approval since they are not a shall issue state) so her answer was that I could get it back in about nine months, or potentially never.

My next request was that she ship the gun to the MD state police. I am perfectly able and legal to own the gun here in MD, even with the cwof. I just can't "purchase" right now. She said no. I then asked her if she would ship the gun to the MD state police, who would release it to me through their office, after the six months was up and therefore negate the need for their concealed carry card. She said no to that too, and claimed that it was illegal for her to ship the gun outside of MAss, which is obviously not true.

Clearly, they have no intention of ever returning it, so I told her that I am aware about the shenanigans seven miles away in Holland Mass where officer Gleason, was busted for selling guns stolen from evidence, and she assured me that my gun was safe in her hands, locked behind three doors was the term she used, and that as soon as I was in a "legal" position to take possession of it there in person, she'd "see about getting it back to me."

Her last instruction was to call an office of firearm records in Chelsey Mass, and run the scenario by them, for a second opinion and further instruction.

My lawyer at the moment, is looking into the matter, and hasn't stated anything about it yet.

The judge at pre-tril was already asked to rule about the firearm, right then and there by my counsel. His reply to my counsel was, "The state police have Mr. Mise's gun, and I'm not getting between you and them. You work it out with them to get the gun back."

I am prepared to spend up to another $1500 to get my $500 gun back just to clear a path for fellow gun owners to have a set of procedures for lawful return set in place. But if its going to cost more than that, I'll drop the lawyer expenses, and next time I drive through just file a civil suit against the police dept for a few hundred bucks and let them spend their time and money defending it. This last step of course won't occur until after the six months are up and they run me around again.

Thanks again for your support, and concern, and I'll keep you posted as the case unfolds.

-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13

Tinpig
June 23, 2009, 11:53 PM
QMan-
Here is a link to a Massachusetts lawyer who specializes in firearms law.
I do not know him and have never had occasion to use him.
He advertises in the Mass. GOAL newspaper.

Jesse C. Cohen
http://www.attorneycohen.com/

Tinpig

t165
June 24, 2009, 12:24 AM
I would be frustrated also. IIRC both the 5th and 14th Amendments guarantee a person may not be deprived of LIFE, LIBERTY or PROPERTY without due process of law. Why the Judge did not make a judicial decison concerning the firearm is beyond me...unless he is an anti-gun advocate and just wanted to make it difficult for you to obtain it back. If there was a legal reason not to return the firearm then the judge should have said so. If there was no legal authority to forfeit the firearm then the judge should have ordered it returned. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned contacting the NRA about the matter. At the very least they should be able to give you some advice and a attorney to contact with experience in such matters.

theQman23
June 24, 2009, 02:04 AM
The judge didn't seem to be anti-gun to me honestly. He answered all of my questions, and helped steer me in a direction of making informed choices, and if I had to say so, my hunch was that he was protecting me from the DA up there. The DA wanted my blood, (just because I"m an out of state gun owner, my criminal record was spotless until these folks got ahold of me so it wasn't like she was trying to protect society from a gun slinging killer or something.......) but the judge seemed like he was on my side a bit. He had to put me on cwof for something just to protect the police from looking like they made a bad arrest, or else the DA would have pushed for a trial, just like I could have pushed for one, so I think the judge got me out of there as unscathed as he possible and legally could.

As for why he wouldn't rule on the gun issue? Well, my guess is that there is controversy in the police dept right now over this Mr. Gleason in Holland MAss who was selling the evidence guns. And my guess is that there are safety concerns with handing confiscated guns back out to just anyone, and my guess is that the judge was afraid to make a ruling. I think he was legitimately scared to say one way or the other on the gun itself. He did say that the police had the authority to give it back, and they won't, so we can honestly say that the MAss state police just likes to confiscate guns, and keep them, or withold them. There is evidence to support that.

I'll be calling the NRA back again to update them on my case, but not until after I speak with the "Chelsey" gun records office. They are the next stop for now, as I was instructed by officer Mogan.

Thanks again to all,
-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13

mgkdrgn
June 24, 2009, 10:13 AM
You do realize, of course, that no matter what, when the 6 months are over they either:

1) won't be able to "find" your gun.

2) it will have been involved in an unfortunate forklift/acid bath/dropped into a wood chipper accident.

That said, I AGREE that you should get your gun back. I AGREE that the MA State Police have no right to your gun. I support your effort to get them to do the right thing.

However, to get this "done right", so that NO ONE ELSE has to put up with this bovine-scat, you are going to have to get some financial and logistical support from somewhere (NRA, ACLU, etc, etc) as this is likely going to take years and 10's, if not 100's of thousands of $ in legal fees. (Remember Heller? $4.3 MILLION at last tally)

Oh, and don't worry to much about the MA State police having to spend too much of "their" money.... NONE OF IT IS THEIR MONEY. It's the taxpayers of the state of MA's money. The MA State police will be more than happy to spend unlimited funds on this, and to drag it out for years.

4v50 Gary
June 24, 2009, 10:40 AM
Lawyer up.

Unfortunately, it will cost you a lot more than buying a new gun.

I'm wondering if you can pick up the gun, disassemble it, ship part of it back and carry the frame with you out of state?

stchman
June 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
Remind me to NEVER go to Massachusetts. I hate the Red Sox anyway.

I do recommend that you do report the gun stolen or missing. If this police department is corrupt and your gun does get "sold", you don't wnat your name then associated with it.

gripper
June 24, 2009, 01:32 PM
goal.orggo there ,establlish contact and try to get them involved-they ARE the statewide organization that is SUPPOSED to stay on top of this stuff.

eye5600
June 24, 2009, 01:34 PM
But her second instruction was that I would need to get a concealed carry card in Mass before I could pick the gun up, since they can not lawfully hand it back to me without my having one.

Can she hand it to a person who is acting as your agent and who has the right to carry? For example, you could hire an off-duty cop to be "in possession" while you pack the gun and take it to the PO or UPS for shipment to your residence.

danbrew
June 24, 2009, 02:07 PM
now that's an idea. once you get beyond the fact that they have your gun and they are never never never gonna give it back, you could amuse yourself with the following scenario.

"Ok, Ms. Jones, I understand that you cannot give the gun to me. That's fine. I've given up any hope of ever seeing this gun again. But I have sold the gun to Mr. Smith, a registered Mass handgun permit/carry/holder/whatever. Here's a notorized bill of sale. Could you please advise of the steps required for Mr. Smith to take possession of his new gun?"

Her response to this will tell you that you'll never ever get the gun back.

mp510
June 24, 2009, 04:28 PM
I do recommend that you do report the gun stolen or missing. If this police department is corrupt and your gun does get "sold", you don't wnat your name then associated with it.
Right now, the gun is evidence. Until the six month good behavior period is up, and the case is closed, the state needs to have the gun in case for some reason this mess goes to trial.

Chances are, the OP will not be able to obtain a non-res LTC. IIRC, one of the requirements is that you have an LTC or CCW in your home state. The OP is from Maryland, so I doubt he has or could obtain one.

The best thing for the OP to do is get a good lawyer to see if he can work something out with the police (or go to court if he thinks there is a chance).

highlander 5
June 24, 2009, 05:28 PM
You should contact GOAL in Ma and get the number of either Darius Arrabi or Keith Langer,they are highly versed in the firearms law of Mass. If you can get this mess cleared up as an out of state applicant you stand a better chance of getting a LTC than those of us who live here. If you go to Norteastshooters.com Darius is under the screen name of Cross X. FYI to get a Ma non resident LTC you do not need a permit from another state.

HoosierQ
June 24, 2009, 05:40 PM
I know that in matters of the Constitution, principle is a very important thing. One then needs to weigh that with some rather sobering scenarios or factors...whatever.

What is the likelihood of getting one's gun back from a state like Mass? I wonder if anyone has in recent history? If not, you've got some thinking to do.

Can you or will you place a dollar value on fighting for your principles? In other words, is it worth spending $6,000 in lawer's fee over what is surely to be a time frame measured in years to get back a $600 gun? For that money you could buy 10 of them and you be making quite a statement about your rights just by doing that!

Tough situation. Lawsuits of any sort go on forever, and ever, and ever. Not the least bit inconceivable that a suit could drag on for 10 years...I know of two with extended family members that did. Gotta weigh that in too.

eye5600
June 24, 2009, 05:56 PM
If the "solution" to a $500 problem costs $1,000, then no solution is the preferable course of action (ie, logical, least costly, etc, etc).

A couple of weeks ago, I would have nodded agreement and let it go. This week I've been reading about the Lautenberg Amendment and domestic violence situations. There are lots of people who were involved in some DV incident decades ago, and were advised by their lawyer to settle up, make nice, don't fight it, and it'll all be over in the morning. And then decades later, Congress passes the LA and they lose their gun rights.

It's really not beyond the pale that some future screen for gun sales will have the question: did you ever have a gun confiscated by the police? It may actually be worth fighting for the principle.

theQman23
June 24, 2009, 07:33 PM
thanks again so much everyone, I appreciate it kindly.

My lawyer called me today and all but politely told me to cool it. She is going to work with the police in writing, and see what she can do to establisha process whereby I can get it back at the end of six months without jumping through endless and self replicating hoops. I still think that calling them and letting them know that I know about the stolen evidence guns being sold and the officers indictment and subsequent jail time only seven miles away from where they are was a good move. They may "keep" or "accidentally damage" my gun, but I seriously, seriously doubt they'll either sell it or put it in service themselves. They know I'm watching, and have legal grounds for a suit after what happened to their "fellow officer" for doing the same thing up there.

The Chelsey records office has not responded yet, and since I"m on backoff status with my lawyer, I guess the only thing to do now is wait.

One kind gentleman mentioned having a ccw in my home state of MD, and how hard they are to get. I am fortunate enough to be eligible for a permit here in MD unlike most others, because I am self employeed and meet the deposit requirements. It isn't fair that I can get one and others can't, but I can at least use the scenario to beat MASS in the end possibly. On that note, I'm participating in an "empty holster" protest outside of the courthouse in MD where hundreds, "hopefully thousands" of gun owners and would be ccw card holders in MD are going to show up WITHOUT GUNS, but with empty holsters to make a point that there are citizens in MD who would like to actually exercise the 2nd A rights.

Thanks again everyone, I"ll keep you posted, and remember to pray for our brother Allen who was moving to KY and ran into a similiar scenario. His case hasn't been adjudicated yet.

-Quentin Mise
Romans 10:13

30mag
June 24, 2009, 08:05 PM
Can you or will you place a dollar value on fighting for your principles? In other words, is it worth spending $6,000 in lawer's fee over what is surely to be a time frame measured in years to get back a $600 gun? For that money you could buy 10 of them and you be making quite a statement about your rights just by doing that!

Something about the government taking people's guns away seems alright?

swiftak
June 24, 2009, 08:18 PM
I'm really not very surprised that the Mass. State Police would do this to you. The State of Mass. is probably the most corrupt state in the United States. Just look at their polititions. We get the news out of Mass every night and all you can do is sit there and wonder how anyone with half a brain would live in that state. I one asked a Mass. State Trooper a question at Logan airport in Boston, and he turned around and walked away like I had the nerve to talk to him.

bigione
June 24, 2009, 09:00 PM
I like the idea of selling the gun to the proper Mass. ccw holder, maybe on contingent that the full payment be much less than the cost of the gun and most of that due after the gun is released. Good luck.

Deanimator
June 25, 2009, 09:19 AM
I'm wondering if you can pick up the gun, disassemble it, ship part of it back and carry the frame with you out of state?
What would that do?

The frame has the serial number and will ALWAYS be a "gun" unless torched, crushed or rendered permanently inoperable in some other way.

He should wait the six months and if they won't give it back, treat it as a theft, going through the BATFE and the civil courts as required.

As somebody else pointed out, if that gun ends up in the wrong hands, the lawful owner doesn't want it associated with him, ESPECIALLY if the paperwork showing it was in the possession of the police either "disappears" or never existed in the first place. Which of course brings up the interesting question of whether they ACTUALLY have it NOW...

Bookworm
June 25, 2009, 11:01 AM
Eye5600 wrote:It's really not beyond the pale that some future screen for gun sales will have the question: did you ever have a gun confiscated by the police? It may actually be worth fighting for the principle.

I thought about that for a while. Very good post, Eye.

doublebarrel12
June 26, 2009, 12:52 AM
The whole thing sounds like one helluva mess for sure.. I would bet the NRA would love to handle it, if it was all legitement. I'd try to contact them and see what they say. If you are an NRA member ofcourse!

RDak
June 26, 2009, 09:37 AM
It's pretty obvious that the Mass. police are corrupt when it comes to firearms and they have simply stolen your firearm. Some officer there will probably end up with your Glock.

Just plain disgusting and draconian. And the extremely bad part is some of the LEO personnel laughed at your initial request to get the Glock back.

I'm getting too old to have my blood pressure get this high. Sorry for the rant but Mass. is a cesspool when it comes to firearms ownership. It's just that plain and simple IMHO.

Ohio Gun Guy
June 26, 2009, 11:17 AM
I worry that they will lower the bar for gun ownership so low, that it will no longer be felons, domestic assault, but also misdemeanor, and who knows, traffic & Parking tickets?

They are treating it like a privilege, not a right :fire:

Mike128
June 26, 2009, 12:35 PM
MD isn't much better. There is a thread on MD shooters that is similiar to this one.
It was a domestic violence charge. The man was found innocent but still can not get his guns back and there is no provisions to do so.

ThePunisher'sArmory
June 26, 2009, 12:41 PM
If you sponsor the NRA, in that you send them money, call them and get them involved!

smktr8
July 15, 2009, 11:09 AM
I had a problem a Few years back My cousin came from another state and stayed at my house for 3 days ended up staying in town after my wife ask him to go. He and one of his buddies got hooked on drugs and broke into a house next to me stole a tv The police ask me if I knew anything about it I told them yes My cousin told he did it and I told them where to find him. This one cop and I have had a bad past sence I was 9 and rolled a pumpkin into his car buts that another story. So long story short he never wanted anyone in town to carry he had seen mine not coverd when he came to serve me to go to court so he came back with a letter saying I am no longer a suitable person to have a gun and took it and my permit. Well I took the charge to trial and the cop droped all charges right brefor the trial. Then the cop told me himself he only draged it out because my permit ran out while this was going on and he dosent think I should be carrying a gun. I almost punched this guy right there in the hall of the court. I got my lawyer to call the Chief he told her he would not renew my permit. I moved to the next town a month befor and got a new permit from the new town. Went to the old police station showed my permit and demanded my gun now Or I was calling the FBI :cuss: because they stole it I pulled out my cell phone and then they made the cop come in and give me my weppon because he was the one who took it. So if you have a legal permit then just go to the town pd and demand your gun back there is no law for them to hold it. If they do they stole it and call the FBI!!:) Just because they ware a badge dont mean nothing!

2nd 41
July 15, 2009, 11:39 AM
Have a receipt for where your gun is currently and don't lose it.

Hiring a Lawyer>>>The agg might not be worth it. Take the path of least resistance and move on. Time to upgrade. Buy a new pistol.

Deanimator
July 15, 2009, 11:53 AM
Hiring a Lawyer>>>The agg might not be worth it. Take the path of least resistance and move on. Time to upgrade. Buy a new pistol.
What's NOT aggravating allowing allowing "public servants" to steal?

How about if it had been his car? Next time, it might be, as has been shown numerous times in Louisiana.

You get the quality of police and government you're willing to tolerate. Tolerate theft and you'll get that and more.

TimM
July 15, 2009, 12:22 PM
Are you a member of the NRA? If so contact them and see if they can help.

anyheck
July 15, 2009, 12:42 PM
The following may be relevant to your case:

"ACLU Sues District Attorney For Return of Firearm"
http://www.laaclu.org/newsArchive.php?id=343#n343

THR thread on it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=460774

My understanding, from a contact in the DA's office, is that the gun's whereabouts are totally unaccounted for and the DA is, for some reason, covering for the criminal actions of the NOPD who have little to no credibility left anyway.

Leanwolf
July 15, 2009, 05:20 PM
Massachusetts is the personal fiefdom of the Imperials Kennedys, isn't it? How dare you question their dictates and decrees! They don't want you or all the other serfs, worker peasants, and villeins to own or possess firearms, then you have no Right to them.

Bow down before your Lords and Masters. Afterall, they know what's best for you... or else.

L.W.

smktr8
July 16, 2009, 09:47 AM
2ND 41 Forgive me if I am getting you wrong but are you telling him to forget about his gun that he paid for and just buy a new one and suck it up???:confused:

That is nuts if that is the case he paid for it with his own money and no one has the right to take it away. Inless he has become unable to own one by Law. Lets face it he is looking up at a 30ft gate with no rope but that dont mean it is lost it is yours kick the dam gate down :banghead:and demand it back use the Massachusetts State Police Boston•In-state and out-of-state firearms license application processing
Firearms Records Bureau

200 Arlington Street,
2nd Floor, Suite 2200
Chelsea, MA 02150 Ph: (617) 660-4782
Fax: (617) 884-4601
! They have to investagate this report bet your gun pops up then ;)

Guns and more
July 16, 2009, 12:02 PM
Every cop needs a good "throw down gun". Need I say more?

smktr8
July 17, 2009, 08:55 AM
Maybe in the Movies but in the real world everyone has to answer to someone he just needs to keep moving up untill he finds that person it is not a lost case.

DollParts
July 17, 2009, 12:54 PM
If you ask me you need a new lawyer,but the advice about involving the NRA
is also a good start.

DollParts
July 17, 2009, 01:06 PM
Ambarrassing,but true I don't know how one can do this...My mother was staying in New York in a hotel with a friend of hers. They drove there and my mom took along her 40. At bedtime she put it in the draw of the nightstand in the hotel room. The next morning they leave she forgot her firearm in the nightstand. So she called the hotel to let them know which I understand that her main concern at that point was to secure the firearm. Her gun in someone elses hands not a good thing. The police were brought in they told her she could come pick up her gun no problem right...she contacted a lawyer when she returned to NH to see what could transpire from this she felt they would of arrested her had she gone back for it. Exactly what the lawyer said. He told her if you go back they will aresst you and charge across state lines..etc..or you can never say admit its your gun and not see the gun again. They harrassed her for so long calling her threatening that they have a warrant...she just ignored them.

Deanimator
July 17, 2009, 01:20 PM
If you saw a MA state cop forget his gun in a public restroom, would you take it home and keep it?

If not, why should you let cops keep a gun that doesn't belong to them, and to which they're not legally entitled?

Do you think the MA State Police would EVER say, "Aw, it's too much time and money to get Trooper X's gun back. Just let the guy keep it."

Either stealing is wrong or it's not.

When did stealing get to be a good thing when SOME people do it?

Deanimator
July 17, 2009, 01:28 PM
If the "solution" to a $500 problem costs $1,000, then no solution is the preferable course of action (ie, logical, least costly, etc, etc).
A woman is attacked by a rapist:

If her legal bills from defending herself in criminal and civil court because she used a gun to defend herself from the rapist would exceed her medical bills from getting raped, should she just submit to the rape?

smktr8
July 17, 2009, 04:59 PM
Well Put!!!

mgkdrgn
July 17, 2009, 09:21 PM
A woman is attacked by a rapist:

If her legal bills from defending herself in criminal and civil court because she used a gun to defend herself from the rapist would exceed her medical bills from getting raped, should she just submit to the rape?

Defending yourself against grievous bodily harm / death is hardly analogous to recovering an item being held by the police as evidence in a criminal proceeding.

If the Mass State police want to get a "bug up their butt" on this issue, they will, and there isn't a whole lot the OP can do about it that won't cost him several times what the gun did. (Id wager it's cost him that already.)

If you are willing to front him a few grand to keep up the "good fight" I'm sure he would appreciate it.

Bottom line, he'll get it back when the Mass State Police are ready to give it back, and no sooner. (Kind of like a cold ... treat it and it will be gone in 7 to 10 days. Don't treat it and it will be gone in 7 to 10 days.) I agree it sucks, but reality often does.

Deanimator
July 18, 2009, 04:33 AM
Defending yourself against grievous bodily harm / death is hardly analogous to recovering an item being held by the police as evidence in a criminal proceeding.
A PURELY monetary analysis was applied to justify allowing the MA State Police to steal. I applied the VERY same PURELY monetary analysis to self-defense against rape. If you shouldn't fight theft by the MA State Police because it would cost more than replacing the stolen item, why fight rape if the legal costs of resisting would exceed the medical costs of submitting?

How much is your right not to be assaulted or have your property stolen worth?

What's the ultimate cost of encouraging rape and theft by meekly submitting to them?

jaholder1971
July 18, 2009, 09:53 PM
Okay, CWOF is what we call a Diversion here in Kansas.

Basically, the defendant agrees that the prosecutor's allegations are correct and he/she doesn't contest the charges. Despite whatever your attorney says, it's essentially a guilty plea in exchange for them eventually dismissing the charges if you do what they tell you to.

So what am I saying? The prosecutor said the OP was illegally carrying a gun and the OP agreed. Whether or not the prosecutor's right is irrelevant now and would not expect either the court, the prosecutor or the State Police to release the OP's weapon back to him after he willingly admitted to committing a crime with it.

These types of legal wranglings don't serve justice. They make the lawyers and the .gov richer, the innocent criminals and gives leniency to real criminals. The one and only time I had to answer (false) criminal charges I had to tell both the DA and my lawyer what they could do with their diversion and set a court date. The DA didn't have the evidence and my lawyer didn't make enough money, so they dropped the charges.

winston smith
July 20, 2009, 02:54 PM
Hire a lawyer. Keep your mouth shut and stop posting about it.

deadin
July 20, 2009, 03:17 PM
Keep your mouth shut and stop posting about it.

He hasn't posted since June 24 (post #52). It's everybody else that won't let it die.

theQman23
August 19, 2009, 02:30 AM
As of right now, we are still at a stand still. The police keep saying they will give the gun back in December after the cwof drops, but won't outline exactly how they're going to do it. It's all evasive cheap talk without any commitment on their part. Sounds like listening to a currect presidential speech.
My position still hasn't changed. I am prepared to spend WAY MORE THAN THE COST OF THE GUN TO STAND ON PRINCIPLE, because, after all, most of you appreciate it. I know that if you guys were in the same boat and had the money to fight it, I'd encourage you to do the right thing too.

As for hiring a lawyer and shutting up about it........ well.......... I already hired a lawyer, that's been done already. As for shutting up about it, (and thereby letting the gestapo illegally steal what is my lawful property, ) NOT A CHANCE!!!! I am becoming more and more ashamed of the direction my great country is going every single day, and if I shut up about it the my opposition wins. As long as there is free speech, (and frankly even if there wasn't,) I'll be telling my story in an effort to promote the 2nd amdn for the rest of my life.

-Quentin Mise

Fryerpower
August 19, 2009, 08:54 PM
In the even you never see your gun again, make sure you have a document of some sort to prove that they have it. At least that way when it ends up being used as a drop gun you can help lead it back to the police (and not to you!)

PLEASE when you use an acronym for the first time spell it out.

Continuance WithOut a Finding (CWOF). It took me a while to figure out what a CWOF was. :)

Good luck and get the NRA involved!

-Jim

markfh
August 20, 2009, 12:51 AM
The last time a lawyer told me that "for the principle" wasn't a good enough reason to go to court I fired his slimy ass. Got me a junk yard dog lawyer and ate the opposition up.

Keep up the fight.

Deltaboy
August 21, 2009, 10:33 PM
Keep fighting the good fight. I'm praying you get your gun back.

theQman23
October 5, 2009, 12:12 AM
Hello everyone,
My lawyer sent me an email that the Mass state police finally responded to her. They claim that they are willing to release the Glock back to me in December, once the cwof is over, and that I don't even have to go back up there to get it. They are going to ship it to an ffl dealer in my home town, (at my expense of course) and I can pay a transfer fee, to re-aquire my own gun since the Mass police think they own in now, and once I pay the ffl transfer fee I can have it back, and that same serial number will be assigned to me again, and it'll show as though I purchased the same gun twice.
Two questions: One, once this is done do I have to wait another 30 days to buy my 2nd handgun, (I've been itching to buy another G27 just so I'll have two in case this ever happens again,) or will they waive the 30 days since I already bought this gun once?
Second question, I have to apply for my ccw in Maryland. Most Marylanders cant' get ccw because its a liberal leftist "may issue" state that requires proof of cash deposits and business ownership to get one without written evidence of a death threat. Well I've never been threatened, but I do meet the corporate owner cash deposit criteria, but one of the questions is "Have you ever been arrested on a gun charge?" Since I was found not guilty on two counts, and cwof on the third, should I have this all expunged, (that'll take a year or two I bet) before I apply for CCW in MD, or can I say, yes I was arrested but not convicted? If I say yes to being arrested and prove that I wasn't convicted do I stand a chance of getting the permit? Or will they revoke it because they can?

Thanks to all,
Quentin
Romans, 10:13

mgkdrgn
October 5, 2009, 10:43 AM
Your chance of getting a CCW in Maryland if you meet all the requirements AND have a "blank page" record are minimal.

Your chance of getting a CCW in Maryland if you meet all the requirements AND have =anything= on your record is somewhat less than minimal.

You'll never know until you try ... but the fee (what is it, $200 now?) is non-refundable.

jaholder1971
October 5, 2009, 06:47 PM
Personally, I would consider yourself lucky if you get it back at all.

Here in KS, under a circumstance like yours, part of the agreement would have been that you have likely had the piece permanently confiscated.

Why? In order to get the CWOF, you had to stipulate that everything the prosecutors accused you of was fundamentally correct, which meant you admitted that you were in illegal possession of a firearm. Firearms in these situations in most jurisdictions are usually never returned to the defendant, even in very gun-friendly regions.

cassandrasdaddy
October 5, 2009, 07:18 PM
kansas is worse than massachussets about guns?

jaholder1971
October 5, 2009, 10:02 PM
No, it's better.

But I don't know of any jurisdiction where you admit in court to doing whatever act the prosecutor said you did and agreeing it was illegal in exchange for an eventual dismissal that you would get the tool used in the crime back.

Look, he'll eventually have charges dismissed, but he did admit to doing something illegal (whether or not doesn't really matter) and it was with the gun that he did it. It's why I oppose these types of diversion agreements as it literally does no one any justice.

Kevin77
October 6, 2009, 02:07 AM
Just get a Utah CCL like everybody else seems to be doing. I think Maryland recognises them so it will work just as well as a Maryland permit.

andrewstorm
October 6, 2009, 02:52 AM
call the fbi and make a complaint,that describes the pattern and practice of the mass st police,and mention the local sherrifs sale of siezed guns.THE ONLY THING WE HAVE TO FEAR IS FEAR ITSELF! F. D.R.

Igloodude
October 6, 2009, 05:50 PM
Just get a Utah CCL like everybody else seems to be doing. I think Maryland recognises them so it will work just as well as a Maryland permit.

Incorrect. According to this site (http://www.ccrkba.org/reciprocity.html), Maryland does not honor any other state's CCW permits. Along with California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin.

Grey_Mana
October 6, 2009, 06:15 PM
If the police have your gun (or any other evidence) and you had home owner's insurance at the time the taking took place, check your policy. For me, I would file with insurance, they would pay the value (not the replacement cost), and then follow up with getting the property back or not.

Blackbeard
October 6, 2009, 06:49 PM
I'd pay the shipping and transfer fee and then sue the police department to recover those costs.

NightStalkerTX
October 7, 2009, 12:07 AM
The website listed above that purports to list states that do not recognize any other states' CHL permits would be wrong, in at least 1 case, thus untrusted in the others. Nebraska does, in fact, recognize Texas CHLs as long as the holder is at least 21 years old.

gideon_70
October 7, 2009, 12:21 AM
Squeeky wheel.

Get a letter drawn up, with court case numbers, brief summaries, and that they have not returned your firearm. Get it copied.

Now, get the names of every state congressman and contact them to do research on this.

Then. Contact the US senators and congressmen and also get THEM involved in this.

Then, send the letter to every newspaper in the area.

Then, if there are radio call-in shos in that area, find out about them, and call in and tell them that the State Police stole from you.

Then, find the names of the entire chain of command for the local SP post, and send a complaint letter to every one of them.

Then, file complants against the officers for theft.

Then, (if they have not realzied YOU are more trouble than you are worth), get serious and contact the state Attorney General and see about filing a complaint against any officers that are personally responsible for the storage of your firearm personally.

Press charges against the captain in charge of the post.

Seriously, there is a lot you can do, and a lot of things you can do to embarass them. But the more noise you make, the more likely you are to get your proerty back. Including standing in front of the post and holding a sign that says they stole your property.

Let us know how it comes out.

theQman23
October 7, 2009, 02:20 AM
Thanks for all of the advice guys. Here's a summary of my ideas after reading your posts.

First, MD does not honor ANY other states permit, under ANY condition period. Even the permits issued here come with a list of conditions, like only to and from the bank, or only to and from a certain area, etc....... even the permits that MD issues can be misconstrued as no good in MD. I am seriously, very serisouly considering a relocation to WV or PA or OH since my work is via travel and my business won't be affected by a relocation.

As for getting the gun back, I don't think that's a problem anymore, they are just going to make me do the paper trail thing again and of COURSE, spend a little money. My main question now about this is once the CWOF is up and I get my own gun back, can I immediately go buy G27 #2 or do I have to wait 30 days since I have to do FFL paperwork, and that is supposed to only happen every 30 days. Even though the first gun is ALREADY MINE?!?!??!

Thanks to all....
-Quentin

mgkdrgn
October 7, 2009, 09:24 AM
If the "every 30 days" is a Maryland thing (and i do believe it is), then it sounds like you can resolve a whole lof problems (and likely live cheaper!) by relocating. Vote with your feet.

Grey Morel
October 7, 2009, 09:33 AM
This happened to a friend of mine.

He had a falling out with a guy who knew he had a lot of guns. Later, that guy broke into his house and stole a gun from him. This dirt-bag sold it to another guy who knocked over a liqueur store with it. The police caught the robber and recovered my friends gun, but they wont give it back because the robbers accomplice is still at large and the gun is "evidence".

Its been a couple of years, and they have made ZERO progress towards catching this other guy. They aren't even looking for him. Still, they wont give the gun back. They are going to keep it in the evidence locker until the end of time just in case this second guy ever gets caught.

danbrew
October 7, 2009, 09:42 AM
If the police have your gun (or any other evidence) and you had home owner's insurance at the time the taking took place, check your policy. For me, I would file with insurance, they would pay the value (not the replacement cost), and then follow up with getting the property back or not.

Good luck with that. Insurance payouts on "contraband" siezed by the cops would never in a gazillion years happen.

theQman23
October 16, 2009, 12:36 AM
Yes, insurance companies make all of the promises in the world until you've paid your premiums. Then, when it's time to claim, it's like pulling teeth. I would never, ever make any claim, legit or not, legal or not, for ANYTHING that was under a grand, because it'll just show a claim on your policy when it's time to renew and you'll pay them back three or four times over in the next few years for whatever the claim costs. Buy the state min insurance, and keep a savings account for yourself. You'll come out WAY ahead in the end.
As for voting with my feet, and relocating? YES, you are right!. I started looking for a place to live online today. With the money I save on the cost of living expenses I should be able to go huntnig and shooting more. And be legal to carry when I do. Plus, I can give less taxes to less liberals, and more taxes, to more conservatives. Win, win, win, win, win........ why aren't my bags packed yet?
-Quentin
Roman 10:13

Avenger29
October 16, 2009, 12:54 AM
Win, win, win, win, win........ why aren't my bags packed yet?

Hell if I know. Why aren't your bags packed? :evil:

RoostRider
October 16, 2009, 01:44 AM
I had a gun taken by the St Paul PD as 'evidence'... never charged with anything.... they laughed at me when I asked for it back... I made a lot of stink with the right folks and got it back (without an attorney).... it took a long time and a lot of "talk to this guy", "Oh, you need to talk to that guy", "you'll need a letter from the chief"- "Hmmm, not sure who you talk to now".... you get the idea...

Stick to your guns.... so to speak... lol... good luck getting it back

Art Eatman
October 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
Enuf wanderin'...

If you enjoyed reading about "Getting a LAWFUL gun back from police in MASS?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!