Overall length of SBR's (AR-15, etc.)


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dillynfw
June 21, 2009, 07:59 PM
What's the overall length of a particular SBR like an AR-15 with a 10.5'' barrel?

The overall length of a FN F2000 is 27.2'' according to wikipedia. So is the F2000 subject to SBR regulations? If not, why not?

Also if not, then the SBR NFA requirements seem kind of silly.

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Dan Forrester
June 21, 2009, 08:05 PM
My 10.5 AR came out to 28" with the stock all the way in. For comparison, my underfolder AK is 27" folded.

Yes SBR and SBS and all NFA regulations seem kinda silly. Originally when the Gun Control Act of 1934 was drafted revolvers and pistols were included as NFA weapons. The SBR, SBS and AOW categories were put in to prevent people from chopping down rifles and shotguns into pistols to get around the law. Pistols and revolvers were removed from the final draft of the GCA of 1934 but the SBR, SBS and AOW categories remained.

Dan

Yellowfin
June 22, 2009, 01:52 AM
Has there been any effort to get SBR's removed from the NFA list? It's quite pointless.

Quiet
June 22, 2009, 03:24 AM
Federal SBR lengths...
Barrel length = less than 16"
Overall length = less than 26"

waterhouse
June 22, 2009, 12:15 PM
What's the overall length of a particular SBR like an AR-15 with a 10.5'' barrel?

Mine is a hair over 28". I think perhaps 28.5, but I don't have the form 1 in front of me.


The overall length of a FN F2000 is 27.2'' according to wikipedia. So is the F2000 subject to SBR regulations? If not, why not?

No. Because the overall length is greater than 26" and the barrel is greater than 16". That's what the law says. Don't go looking for logic and reason in gun laws.

husbandofaromanian
June 22, 2009, 12:41 PM
This all seems like history to me. My state, Tennessee, just passed the "Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act" and starting next month FEDERAL GUN LAWS OF ANY KIND WILL NOT APPLY to the citizens of Tennessee so long as the gun is stamped "Made in Tennessee".

So we will no longer have to worry about NFA laws (although machine guns are still out by state law).

I can sell guns out of my RadioShack store with no FFL.

We will no longer have to worry about barrel length.

I can send my 15 year old son to by my next silencer for me.

I can make my own 37mm cannon (modern propellent) so long as I am able
to carry and use it by myself.

Unless of course the Federal Government would care to challenge this 10th ammendment issue and take it to the supreme court.

waterhouse
June 22, 2009, 02:00 PM
Thread drift:

I'm not so sure about your interpretation of the Tennessee law.

I'll have to check, but I believe Tennessee law is worded very similarly to Texas law, which basically says

*Suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, etc, are illegal
* It is a defense to prosecution if you registered those illegal items under the NFA


In other words, if those things aren't registered and have their tax stamps from the Feds, they will still be illegal under Tenn. law.

39-17-1302. Prohibited weapons. —

(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs or sells:
(1) An explosive or an explosive weapon;
(2) A device principally designed, made or adapted for delivering or shooting an explosive weapon;
(3) A machine gun;
(4) A short-barrel rifle or shotgun;
(5) A firearm silencer; . . .

. . .

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the person’s conduct:

. . .

(7) Involved acquisition or possession of a sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun or firearm silencer that is validly registered to the person under federal law in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Records. A person who acquires or possesses a firearm registered as required by this subdivision (b)(7) shall retain proof of registration; or

husbandofaromanian
June 22, 2009, 04:19 PM
I don't think reality has sunk in yet. This bill passed last week and it's law
next month. As a citizen of Tennessee, I will not be subject to Federal Law
when it comes to firearms and ammunition manufactured in Tennessee and
stamped "Made in Tennessee".

Not much is being said about this. Probably because it's such a SHOCK!!!

Thread drift? Maybe

Fantastic news? Definatly!

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jun/12/guns-parks-firearms-freedom-become-law/?partner=yahoo_headlines

Ron James
June 22, 2009, 04:43 PM
I think you had better step back a step and smell the coffee. Tennessee can change state law, they cannot supercede or cancel or lessen Federal law. If there was a federal law in effect prior to the passage of the state law, then it is still in effect. Remember, right or wrong, the states cannot mandate to the Feds. If I remember correctly a war was fought over that matter and the south lost.:)

waterhouse
June 22, 2009, 06:37 PM
As a citizen of Tennessee, I will not be subject to Federal Law
when it comes to firearms and ammunition manufactured in Tennessee and
stamped "Made in Tennessee".

Right, but even in the "best case scenario" where the Feds don't arrest you and take you to federal court, and then put you in jail while you appeal, you still can't just make your own suppressor or SBR or SBS and have it be legal in Tennessee.

Tennessee state law only allows those items if they are registered with the Feds under NFA. Otherwise they are illegal.

therefore, you will have to worry about NFA things, you will have to worry about barrel length, and your 15 year old son won't legally be able to buy a suppressor from anyone. Thinking you will be able to do any of these things will likely get you into a lot of legal trouble.

dillynfw
June 22, 2009, 11:38 PM
Remember, right or wrong, the states cannot mandate to the Feds. If I remember correctly a war was fought over that matter and the south lost

That doesn't have anything to do with law. "Might makes right" and "This was resolved, Constitutionally, through the courts and/or legislature" are two different things.

In fact, Constitutionally, at least on a collective basis, the the Feds are beholden to states' mandates. Not that the Constitution has had anything to do with life in America since the early 1900's.

This thread went off topic.

A F2000 can easily be carried under a coat with a legal barrel, which makes a mockery of the SBR law.

Dan Forrester
June 23, 2009, 12:56 AM
Husbandofaromanian: Montana and Tennessee’s new laws are simply a challenge to interstate commerce. We want to do this as tactfully as possible to maximize our chances of a victory in the courts. Making 37mm cannons, silencers and machineguns is not a good strategy. But a Rosa Parks with a Tennessee made single shot .22 rifle is!!!

Dan

husbandofaromanian
June 23, 2009, 10:16 AM
AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 4, relative to exempting from regulation under the commerce clause of the Constitution of the United States a firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured and retained in Tennessee.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE:

SECTION 1. Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 4, is amended by adding Sections 2 through 7 of this act as a new chapter thereto.

SECTION 2. This chapter shall be known and may be cited as the “Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act”.

SECTION 3. The general assembly declares that the authority for this act is the following:

(1) The tenth amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees to the states and their people all powers not granted to the federal government elsewhere in the Constitution and reserves to the state and people of Tennessee certain powers as they were understood at the time that Tennessee was admitted to statehood. The guarantee of those powers is a matter of contract between the state and people of Tennessee and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Tennessee and the United States;

(2) The ninth amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees to the people rights not granted in the Constitution and reserves to the people of Tennessee certain rights as they were understood at the time that Tennessee was admitted to statehood. The guarantee of those rights is a matter of contract between the state and people of Tennessee and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Tennessee and the United States.

(3) The regulation of intrastate commerce is vested in the states under the ninth and tenth amendments to the United States Constitution, particularly if not expressly preempted by federal law. Congress has not expressly preempted state regulation of intrastate commerce pertaining to the manufacture on an intrastate basis of firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition;

(4) The second amendment to the United States Constitution reserves to the people the right to keep and bear arms as that right was understood at the time that Tennessee was admitted to statehood, and the guarantee of the right is a matter of contract between the state and people of Tennessee and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Tennessee and the United States; and

(5) The Tennessee Constitution clearly secures to Tennessee citizens, and prohibits government interference with, the right of individual Tennessee citizens to keep and bear arms.

SECTION 4. As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:

(1) “Firearms accessories” means items that are used in conjunction with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function of a firearm, including but not limited to telescopic or laser sights, magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and grips, speedloaders, ammunition carriers, and lights for target illumination;

(2) “Generic and insignificant parts” includes but is not limited to springs, screws, nuts, and pins; and

(3) “Manufactured” means creating a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition from basic materials for functional usefulness, including but not limited to forging, casting, machining, or other processes for working materials.

SECTION 5. A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Tennessee and that remains within the borders of Tennessee is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured in Tennessee from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported into this state. Generic and insignificant parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition, and their importation into Tennessee and incorporation into a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured in Tennessee does not subject the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition to federal regulation. It is declared by the legislature that basic materials, such as unmachined steel and unshaped wood, are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition and are not subject to congressional authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition under interstate commerce as if they were actually firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition. The authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce in basic materials does not include authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition made in Tennessee from those materials. Firearms accessories that are imported into Tennessee from another state and that are subject to federal regulation as being in interstate commerce do not subject a firearm to federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached to or used in conjunction with a firearm in Tennessee.

SECTION 6. Section 5 of this act shall not apply to:

(1) A firearm that cannot be carried and used by one (1) person;

(2) A firearm that has a bore diameter greater than one and one half (1 ½) inches and that uses smokeless powder, not black powder, as a propellant;

(3) Ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or

(4) A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or other firing device.

SECTION 7. A firearm manufactured or sold in Tennessee under this chpater must have the words “Made in Tennessee” clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as the receiver or frame.

SECTION 8. This act shall take effect upon becoming a law, the public welfare requiring it.

===========================================
How can you read the above new law and tell me that Federal law still applies
to me being a resident of Tennessee.
If it is made in Tennessee from basic materials and stamped "Made in Tennessee",
Federal gun laws no longer apply to me.

NightStalkerTX
June 23, 2009, 10:26 AM
Good luck with that. Let us know how it works out for you.

waterhouse
June 23, 2009, 12:39 PM
How can you read the above new law and tell me that Federal law still applies
to me being a resident of Tennessee.

How can you read the law posted in post #7 and tell me that your 15 year old can buy your next silencer?

Once again, the law you posted says that Tennessee doesn't have to obey Federal gun laws. Tennessee STATE law states that you can only own NFA items that are registered under Federal law. Do you see the problem here?


Until they change the wording of the State law, you will be in violation of the state law by owning any suppressor marked "made in Tennessee" if you haven't paid the tax and registered it with the NFA branch. The second you make a suppressor without paying the tax and filling out the paperwork, you will be in violation of both state AND federal law, just as I would be if I tried to do the same in Texas (our laws on this matter are worded very similarly.)

If they have already amended section 39-17-1302 then all you will have to do is deal with the Feds trying to put you in jail.

I fully support what Tennessee, Montana, and others are doing, but you need to carefully read all of the laws before you start building SBRs and suppressors in your garage.

Also, to your earlier statement:

So we will no longer have to worry about NFA laws (although machine guns are still out by state law).

I believe, based on the law posted in post #7, that machine guns are legal in Tennessee if you follow all federal laws.

husbandofaromanian
June 23, 2009, 12:42 PM
Stop raining on my parade! I'm trying to celebrate here!

waterhouse
June 23, 2009, 12:57 PM
If you celebrate in the way you are talking about you'll spend a long time in jail.

If you keep spreading the news that NFA laws don't apply to Tennessee residents you may encourage someone else to break the laws and they'll end up spending a lot of time in jail.

There may come a time when all of your state laws are in your favor. That time does not appear to be right now, although from the wording of the recent Act it may be headed that way. Good luck with it, but currently there is no need to end up with jail time, fines, and a felony record to save a $200 tax.

zoom6zoom
June 23, 2009, 01:03 PM
There's many things I'd like to be, but a "test case" isn't one of them.

billwiese
June 23, 2009, 03:35 PM
We absolutely do NOT need NFA (esp MG/suppressor) cases coming up, clouding matters, until Heller is really locked down, and RKBA is fully incorporated across US.

Remember, the reason why we have Heller (5-4, I remind you) is because we got Kennedy and Gura stayed away from "ultra evil guns".

Our biggest threat to guaranteed RKBA is bad lawyers bringing bad cases trying to tilt at windmills.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Ron James
June 23, 2009, 05:10 PM
I wonder how many other wise good people will wind up in prison over this?:banghead:

Girodin
June 24, 2010, 02:04 PM
This all seems like history to me. My state, Tennessee, just passed the "Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act" and starting next month FEDERAL GUN LAWS OF ANY KIND WILL NOT APPLY to the citizens of Tennessee so long as the gun is stamped "Made in Tennessee".

So we will no longer have to worry about NFA laws (although machine guns are still out by state law).

I suggest you read up on the commerce clause of the constitution. These state laws will not pass muster unless the SCOTUS makes a radical change in their commerce clause interpretation. Not something I would be betting on.

General Geoff
June 24, 2010, 02:15 PM
Has there been any effort to get SBR's removed from the NFA list? It's quite pointless.

The entire NFA is quite pointless.

Sam1911
June 24, 2010, 02:31 PM
Griodin and General Geoff -- I'm sure by now you know to check for year-and-a-day-old posts before coming out swinging.

;)

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