[GSonnen]

I'm looking for some wisdom here.

A little background on me: I'm 40, married, two kids, strong Christian, and strong supporter of the 2nd Ammendment (NRA lifer). I have a CHL in Texas and carry pretty much all the time. I'm very active in cowboy action shooting and compete in 2 to 3 matches a month. My kids are 6 & 8. They do plink, but are not disciplined enough to compete yet, so they usually watch and help pick brass at our monthly CAS shoots.

I've attended the same church in my hometown for almost 10 years. We attend weekly service, Bible study, & send our kids to Sunday school regularly. Last week, my son (6) got in the car after Sunday school looking pretty sad. I said 'what's wrong', my 8 year old daughter proceeded to tell us that Mrs. "Smith" (the teacher on duty for this month) verbally brow beat & repromanded my son for drawing pictures of guns. His assignment was to draw a picture of something fun he did this weekend. They day before he was at a cowboy match with me. His picture was of some cowboy shooters firing rifles at steel targets (again pretty crude crayon pics done by a 6 year old.) Mrs. "Smith" repromanded him in front of the class telling him that guns are "evil", and it is "illegal to discuss or draw them in a church". This left my 6 year old pretty confused and saddened as his mom and dad are both avid shooters.

I don't know Mrs. "Smith" well, but I called her the next day just to get the facts from her perspective. At the end of our discussion, I found her to be an old curmudgeon who is very anti-gun & anti-second ammendment, both of which she apparently gladly shares with anyone that will listen. I ended the call civilly and proceeded to call our pastor to discuss. He is pro 2nd Ammendment and regularly shoots Sporting Clays with me. He was not happy with our situation, but informed us that this was not the first time Mrs. "Smith" bestowed her personal wisdom on other church members. He spoke with her and really got no where as she feels "guns are evil and have no place in society."

My wife & I are really at a dilemma over this. We've decided that our kids should not be in the class when Mrs. "Smith" is the assigned teacher. She cycles into that position every 3 or 4 months. That really leaves us torn as we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord, but we are afraid of the moral direction they may get from this dear old lady. It looks like our Pastor is unable/unwilling to persue the issue any further even at our request.

Anyone have similar issues in their church? If so please share your wisdom,

Greg

[LarryS.]

I'd suggest holding your pastor's feet to the fire through your church structure if by no other means than talking to the deacons and other officials. If the pastor gets like feedback from other than just your family perhaps he'll come around and do the right thing. There's a chance if Mrs. "Smith" gets wind of the talk she may change her attitude and/or decide to leave. Better her than you!!
With 10 years invested, I wouldn't leave the church except as a very LAST resort.

[sneedb82]

Unfortunately... not the same situation.

My home church (in Lubbock) was pastored by a CHL holder, as well as an avid hunter. There are approximately 20 CHL licensees in the congregation, and no issues have ever come from any other Sunday school teachers preaching a "social" issue such as that before. I know when I taught a SS class while in attendance and member there, I spoke on several occasions to the proper use of them if we were to use them or need them, in the context of the 6th Commandment (though shalt not murder). The kids I was dealing with lived in the bad side of town and were brought in on a bus ... most kids have had experiences with EVIL uses of guns, the illegal kind.

The church we are members of now (we have moved 2 hours away from home church), is in a small town. The small town is a fairly rural, but more liberal area than previously located.

I've yet to discuss with the pastor, but he does not own a pistol, or even discusses these types of things. However, there are many individuals who hunt and use firearms, so I do not think it would be an issue.

I think that the pertinence of the "what we do for fun on the weekend" is not necessary to the use or understanding of Biblical teaching or stories. The object lessons or fun activities even for a 6 year old should be Biblical. It's always fun to talk about hobbies or what not, but I think the pastor should remove this teacher from the rotation. She obviously is more in line of teaching while in the flesh than of the Spirit. If she was of the spirit, she would NOT infringe anyone's belief of the 2nd Amendment, nor disobey the Biblical teaching of a Father teaching his son in the ways of the Lord, or anything else that happens to be perfectly legal.

Under the current law, the CHL holders can carry inside the church, and therefore not illegal unless there is a 30.06 sign posted on all entrances that the public will use at the Church. Sorry for your frustration and the lack of moral compass this sweet "saint" has. I'll keep Mrs. "SMITH" in my prayers for her conviction of the laws of the land being upheld... even while teaching a SS class.

[jfdavis58]

Do you think your kids are old enough to learn a little discretion: don't draw gun pictures or talk about guns in church? Certainly you've taught him/her to be discreet about other matters and what to do if that 'discretion' is violated by somebody.

Forget that advice about the pastor, his feet and fire, church doesn't/shouldn't have political boundaries. And that old bat should be just as welcome as you and your family. Church is about GOD. Christian churches are about forgiveness and inclusion despite differences in secular opinion.

Have your 'little shooter' draw pictures of the family together eating at a picnic-they do that at SASS event, right!?!?

[Rockwell1]

1 Timothy 5 17/20
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[c] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”[d] 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

If you have an issue with that teacher take your kids out of class when she's working. As long as her doctrine is sound and she's teaching in accordance with your denomination's standards her opinion of the second amendment is irrelevant

[OurSafeHome.net]

Luke 22:36 "But now," he said, "if you have a wallet or a pack, take it; and if you don't have a sword, sell your robe to buy one."

Luke 22:38 They said, "Look, Lord, there are two swords right here!" "Enough" he replied.


Sound like the guys in this story would not be welcome in Mrs "Smith"'s Sunday School class...

[YoungBrave]

I am an atheist; but not one of those who is angry with God. I don't think I could ever explain to you my religious beliefs, or would even like to try. What I do know is that if anyone was trying to brainwash my children I would boycott them. Whenever you know "dear" ms. anti-gun is teaching, take your children out of class and either take them to the adult service, or take the family out to brunch, and when the church community asks you why, tell them. Eventually "dear" Ms. anti-gun will be put out to pasture, or you will have a day off church every 3-4 months (which is about how often you can´t go anyways due to illness, weddings, funerals, etc.) I hope I don't sound too cavalier about this issue...I've always been practical to a fault; but there is little in the world that I dislike more than the idea of my kids being browbeat into a way of thinking that they did not arrive at by using their noodle.

[eqfan592]

First, I have some issue with jfdavis's suggestion that the children learn some "discretion." My problem is that this may be taken by the children to mean that enjoying firearms is something to be hidden away and/or ashamed of on some level. Please note that I am not saying that is what you feel personally, simply that it is how the children (and others) may view this course of action.

I'm a confirmed Lutheran, but I'm no longer of the Christian faith. However, I know for a fact that there are several strong pro-self defense verses, and that while killing may be against the 10 Commandments, I don't believe it is written anywhere in the Bible that weapons are inherently evil.

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

I wish you the best of luck. :)

[Deus Machina]

Agree with YoungBrave above.

The steps I would take are as such:

Report it to the pastor--which you did.

Tell the kids just not to mention the guns around her/at sunday school. They should learn this for public schools anyway, sadly. Don't say they should hide their interest, just that--like other things--some things don't belong in some places.
After all, if she's teaching Sunday school how it should be taught otherwise, it's irrelevant as it pertains there.

If she brings up anything about it, hold a torch to the pastor and anyone else in charge. It's not her place to berate your children needlessly or condemn legal activities.

If that doesn't get her out of the picture, just go on a picnic every time she's in charge, and let the people in charge know why. Taking the young'ns out of Sunday school is the religious equivalent of talking with your wallet.

However, I know for a fact that there are several strong pro-self defense verses, and that while killing may be against the 10 Commandments, I don't believe it is written anywhere in the Bible that weapons are inherently evil.

You could do well to remind her--and your children--this is the case.

After all, a more literal (depending on who you believe) translation is 'thou shalt not murder,' not 'thou shalt not kill,' and there are distinctions made. Many verses condone protecting yourself, your family, and your property.

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

This is also a very important lesson, but remember it's better to tell them "don't believe everything you hear, make up your own mind" and not "don't believe everything you hear--what you think is always correct." That's the lady's problem.

[hso]

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew. Not something he said to others or something he did to anyone else, but over something he drew. And since this isn't the first time something like this has happened she has established a pattern of behavior that will not change.

Her behavior was completely inappropriate and the leadership should assign her a role where her lack of judgment and personal control won't result in her verbally brutalizing anyone that can't see it as her problem.

[eqfan592]

"This is also a very important lesson, but remember it's better to tell them "don't believe everything you hear, make up your own mind" and not "don't believe everything you hear--what you think is always correct." That's the lady's problem."

Deus, that is a VERY important distinction, and I agree 100% with you.

[NotSoFast]

I agree with Rockwell1. Keep your children in the class except for the days that particular teacher cycles in.

I think I would have to have a discussion with the pastor on what I considered browbeating and forcing another's political views on an impressionable child against the parent's wills. I say this because it isn't just about the Second Amendment, but about manipulation and control, both of which are abuse and harassment. I think if your pastor started to hear those words, he just might be conducive to changes in his teaching staff.

[Kind of Blued]

I'd make an effort to have her removed.

She made a spectacle out of your kid, flat-out lied to them (illegal to draw guns in church?!), and lacks the basic social skillset that a Christian should have, i.e. tolerance and honesty.

And no, I don't care how convinced she is that she's been "called by the Lord to serve the children". She clearly isn't good at it and should be removed.

[Rockwell1]

please feel free to disregard this entire post

If you've had a discussion with the Pastor and you've expressed your disquiet to him I would let it drop right there. Unless the man is preaching blatant heresy God placed him in authority over that church, not you .

If you really feel strongly that this woman is a detriment to your children and you've prayed about it and feel that this is what God would have you do, Remove the kids (without any fuss whatever Do all things peacably and in order)from class when she teaches.

If you attempt to manipulate the church into doing what you want by telling them "Our kids won't be in Sunday school as long as SHE'S teaching" Biblically that's witchcraft and it has no place in church.

Bottom line pray, forgive & pray some more and do what God wants you to do.

And no, I don't care how convinced she is that she's been "called by the Lord to serve the children". She clearly isn't good at it and should be removed.

Maybe God put here there yo teach her that skill set so she can bet good at it.

God doesn't call the qualified (if you think he does look at Peter) He qualifies the called.
Again, this post is my opinion based on my religious training and beliefs. You are free to disregard it in its entireity

[The Lone Haranguer]

She is entitled to her opinion, but not to spread total misinformation. Illegal in a church? :rolleyes:

[bangkok]

I am a bit shocked by some of the responses! Trying to have her removed for a lack of tolerance and honesty? Tolerance is a two way street! And removing your children, the world is full of people that don't believe what you or I believe, we learn "to" deal with them and we learn "by" dealing with them. I don't believe that this woman spouts off anti-gun sentiments every week, it happened once, move on.:)

[GojuBrian]

Nope, this woman was there to teach your son about the Bible, not about political issues. She needs to keep her views to herself concerning parents children. It's not her place to decide if guns are or are not right for your son. Seemingly, she is just an ignorant bat.

I would keep my son away from her and her skewered political agenda.

You have done the right thing so far, but I would press the issue.

[GojuBrian]

The main issue here is not how she feels about the 2nd amendment or gun control. The fact that she beraded your son and put him on the spot calls for immediate removal of working with children. :mad:

[SCKimberFan]

Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew.

This is the best answer yet. If she berated him in front of the other children in class, she isn't much of a Christian.

we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord

During those Sundays when she is teaching the class, have your own Sunday School at home and teach them about the LORD. It is your responsibility to do so anyway.

[danprkr]

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

AMEN to that! One of the things that hardly anyone teaches kids now a days is how to think for themselves. But, be prepared. Once they learn it on their own they are in for a more difficult life. Society tends to frown on thinking. Heck you'll be in for a more difficult child rearing experience - I guarantee that your children will not hesitate to use this on you :D But, it'll be worth it when they make you proud later in life.

As to this particular teacher. I would go the remove while she's teaching route. If asked I would calmly state, "That's between me, her, and God."

If she happens to ask I may tell her, but probably not. After your phone call you know how she feels, and you can be fairly certain that she's not changing.

As to acquiescence/discretion - NO! And, I know that it can be hard. I once was nearly arrested because I wouldn't apologize to a 7th grader for breaking up her fight. Long story, but the bottom line is that I didn't think apologizing was the right example to set for either my foster son, or the young lady involved. Don't set this one for your son.

[danprkr]

The main issue here is not how she feels about the 2nd amendment or gun control. The fact that she beraded your son and put him on the spot calls for immediate removal of working with children.

Good point. I can go with that. Wish I had thought of it.

[Apple a Day]

If she's wigging out and berating kids because of crayon pictures then it's time she was put out to pasture. I'm sure there are plenty of other usefull jobs she could be doing in the church which don't involve her yelling at kids.

[Nate1778]

Get up in front of the congregation and berate her amongst her peers. Yes, its childish, but it feels so good. :neener:


Just kidding, I don't know what I would do, I agree with most, she is entitled to her opinion, what ruffs my nipples is the berating of the child in front of his peers. I would think that if I were to approach her to discuss the matter I would have been more flamed about that then the gun portion. I would have also let her know if it was illegal to talk about them or draw them in church the authorities should have been called and insist that she do so next time. Police love spending there time enforcing laws made up by citizens.

[Just One Shot]

This is a good opportunity to teach your kids a good life lesson. Explain to them that just as some do not believe in and follow God, some people do not believe in the right to bear arms.

Let them know that even though people have opposing views we are not to give up on them.

For the unsaved we pray to the Father for them that He would open their eyes and hearts to His truth.

When given the chance we speak the truth to them so as to give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to convince them of their need for the Savior.

For the anti we speak of the importance of gun ownership and what it means to our personal freedoms.

Iran is the perfect example. Right now the people of Iran are protesting the recent election. Many have been slaughtered because the goverment's croonies are the only one that have firearms.

If the same situation were to arise in America, then the government would be less likely to use deadly force due to the fear of retaliation by it's citizens.

In both instances, all we can do is explain our position on the matters at hand. It's up to the individual to decide if what we speak makes sense and then to decide their own course of action. Ultimately, they are the ones who must live or die by their choices!

[nitetrane98]

If I remember my churches correctly, nothing will be done to the old bat because she's a rich old bat.

[xwingband]

I've had a few talks with the guys in my "small group" about guns. Most know I own a gun and like to get others to shoot. Many are supportive, but don't see owning a gun themselves. A few obviously see no need for guns, a bit idyllic but they don't cal them evil or the like. So far it's been pretty good.

I like Just One Shot's idea. Use this as a lesson. Take the verses that speak of the Pharisee's, how they cleaned the outside of the cup hoping to make the inside clean. Then the old stand by of "Judge not lest ye be judged. Pull the plank out of thine eye before..."

There are plenty of good scriptural examples to help this situation. You have spoken to your pastor, and should respect his authority. Teach your son to do the same. Respect her authority, but there are also many verses that call one to be blameless and without shame. The quicker he's used to the idea that people are different, the better person he'll be and a better servant. Reinforce that the scripture is how we divine God's will.

[USSR]

Personally, I'd be more upset at the pastor. He's the one making the call, or in this, ignoring the situation. Whether it's because of not wanting to offend an important member of the church (the teacher), or not wanting to lose a teacher, he's negligent in his duties in not correcting one of his flock.

Don

[CoRoMo]

Despite my knee-jerk reaction to this story, post #14 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5700218&postcount=14) is the answer.

I'd hate for you to be so frustrated with your pastor's inaction that you can't be fed by God's word when he teaches it. You need to let that go.

However, you cannot put your children into that known environment ever again. She obviously won't change, so you should expect that she'll publicly browbeat children regularly. Your children should not receive such treatment, and your children shouldn't have to witness such treatment toward others.

Pray for her. Pray for your pastor. Pray for your kids.

[BCCL]

"He was not happy with our situation, but informed us that this was not the first time Mrs. "Smith" bestowed her personal wisdom on other church members."

Right there tells you all you really need to know.

Every church has one, and the best thing you can do is keep your kids as far away from her as possible, especially now that you have called her about this. From here on out, I can promise you she will make it her personal vendetta to hound your kids because you dared to speak up to her.

She will eventually sour your children on church to the point where they don't want to go at all, if alllowed to.

[MovedWest]

Just an idea... Show the kid she's a duff by taking him to the pastor and discussing the matter (and guns) in the sanctuary of the church. Have your son ask his advice. This will do better than telling him anything. It will show your son she was wrong by saying guns cannot be discussed in church by discussing them in the church with the church leader.

If you tell him she's an old bat, it's just your word against the church lady. If you show him via the pastor, it'll stick.

Don't tell the pastor what you're up to though as he'll divert from it to avoid conflict in his congregation. Just advise your son has questions about the incident and wanted to hear from the pastor himself as an authority. That's what he's there for, right?

Afterward, point out to him that you all discussed it in the church which drives the lesson home. Make sure you state that everyone has opinions and some peoples' opinions differ greatly from others. This will be a pretty good lesson for him about social interaction if you can pull it off well.

My big thing with the whole matter is that she just flat out lied to the little fellow by saying it was wrong. The way she did it was bad, but what she said was just flat out wrong. For that I would reconvene with the pastor and pursue that matter aggressively.

My 2 cents.
-MW

[KBT1911]

I'm not a fan of church so I'm probably the wrong guy, but It could be a good opportunity to explain to the wee ones that there are people who disagree and that some of those people use their authority to force their opinions on others. I believe another member mentioned deiscression. this will be a good test of that for the kids.

Looking at it logically and seeing that this woman is doing stuff like that and the pastor blows you off like you don't really matter, how attached are you to this church?

[Walkalong]

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child Yep, this is the way to go. Hold her accountable.

[Zundfolge]

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew. Not something he said to others or something he did to anyone else, but over something he drew. And since this isn't the first time something like this has happened she has established a pattern of behavior that will not change.

Her behavior was completely inappropriate and the leadership should assign her a role where her lack of judgment and personal control won't result in her verbally brutalizing anyone that can't see it as her problem.
That's what I was going to say.

I'd also talk to other parents and get them on this same bandwagon.

Then take your kids aside and tell them that some people have different beliefs than we do, and some people are just plain wrong and you have to learn to sort out for yourself the things people say.


On a side note, there's people like this in every church and while I am a devout Christian, I don't attend any church regularly because frankly (to paraphrase Dennis Miller) I love the Lord, but I don't trust most of the people that work for him.

[kwelz]

I no longer hold any religious beliefs. However I know from my younger days that there is plenty of information int he bible that support our Pro Self defense stance and lay low her arguments.

[SSN Vet]

Major Bummer....

we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord, but we are afraid of the moral direction they may get from this dear old lady.

Well old bitty "Smith" obviously isn't teaching them about the Lord now is she?

I would clearly tell my kids that Mrs. Smith is wrong.... but seize the teaching moment to discuss how you act when confronted with people who are wrong. Respectfully disagreeing is a little hard when it's adult vs. kid.... but I'll bet your kids are sharp enough to understand the difference.

This past school year, I quietly pulled my daughters out of their Sunday school class because their teacher was a barking drill seargant with the kids. It was awkward, because we've know the lady for years and generally like her and her husband. Their daughter has even baby sat for us. But their are some unruley boys in the class who have slack parents that can't teach them self control.... so the lady uses the only method she knows that works. Personally, I'd have the parents interupted in their adult class and require them to remove their little darlings from the class. And "uninvite them" untill they learned some respect and self control. (If the pastors didn't like that... they would have just volunteered themselves to teach the class in my stead :) )

It all starts in the home and no teacher at church or school is going to be able to teach your kids like you can. Also, their not the ones who are going to give an acount for YOUR kids.

If Sunday school isn't a positive experience, becasue the kids are out of control, then I don't require my girls to go.

As for Mrs. Smith... you're not going to change her.... but I would write a strongly worded letter to the Deacons Board (or Elders or Presbyters, or whatever you have) and make it clear that it's their duty to make sure that their Sunday school program is Christ focused and doesn't degenerate into a "platform for anti-American liberal politics"

If they don't have the sack to put ol' bitty Smith in her place or pull her out of the class, then I've got news for you..... there's likely ten time worse things going on in the church that you just don't know about yet.

I'll say a day after Father's Day prayer for you to have the wisdom and grace to know and do the right thing.

I beleive you can be an earnest brother of sister in the Lord and have a opposite opinions on gun politics. I also beleive it's my responsibility to, in as much as it's up to me, to live in peace with others. But it is also my responsibility (not the churches, and not the schools and certainly not Hilary Clinton's village) to raise my kids.

In your situation, as I understand it, the issue is not gun control, it's an abusive teacher who has gone beyond what's proper and right and humilitated a young child to satisfy her political agenda.

Then again... you could take it up with her husband.... though I doubt such an woman accepts even her husbands authority..... buy at least you can punch him in the nose..:p

[taprackbang]

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew.

Big time +1...

Hey PM coming your way. I would like to tell you about my church

[SSN Vet]

Just an idea... Show the kid she's a duff by taking him to the pastor and discussing the matter (and guns) in the sanctuary of the church. Have your son ask his advice. This will do better than telling him anything. It will show your son she was wrong by saying guns cannot be discussed in church by discussing them in the church with the church leader.

If you tell him she's an old bat, it's just your word against the church lady. If you show him via the pastor, it'll stick.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in this approach....

From time to time, my oldest has hit me with a theological stumper (like... "does God have nipples")...

When I answer her... I try to go straight to the book, as it's the authority of the Word that matters, even more than Dad's opinion.

On a couple occasions, she's hit me up with seeming contradictions in scripture. We read everything together and then talk about it. Then I ask her what she thinks. I may or may not tell her what I think, but have on a couple occasions, encouraged her to ask our senior pastor.

My main objective here is usually not the question, but rather encouraging her to form relationship with a man whom I love and respect.... and to show her that we have resources in the Christian community to turn to for help.

Funny thing is.... Pastor will usually read a few applicable verses with her and then say "so what do you think?"

Now, our church is by no means a "relativistic", "you have your truth and that's o.k." type of place. But rather, he understands that when a person discovers an answer from the Word, it's theirs for life and they learn how to go to the Word for answers.

[Stirling XD]

You may not have control over her, but you do have control over your kids. When it's her turn to teach, do something else as a family. Have Sunday school at home and then go to church services. Stay home and watch a good family movie. Or just take that day to do something fun as a family.

Whatever you decide, take the high road when you do it. This is a character building opportunity for you and your children. Don't blow it by launching an anti-Mrs. Smith attack campaign. If someone asks why you weren’t there last Sunday tell them, “we decided to go on a family picnic”. If someone asks you about the situation with Mrs. Smith, explain it in a way that is respectful of her. If she is as curmudgeonly as you described and someone asks her about it, she will likely reveal her true colors as she goes off on a rant. It’s been my experience in conflicts like this that whoever resorts to personal attacks loses.

It sounds like you have handled things maturely so far. Keep it up. As you take “the high road”, you will be teaching your kids to take “the high road”. And isn’t that what Sunday school is all about?

Just my $.02 worth. Good luck.

[DeepSouth]

Might I recommend leading a study (family or otherwise) on the topic of biblical self defense. It will challenge you and help your children to understand why we believe certain things are morally ok.

You can use my sig for a starting place.

[Rockwell1]

All the responses about making her look bad in front of the Pastor or going to the Deacon board or basically pushing the issue until you get your way (manipulation, root of witchcraft) are designed to do one thing and one thing only, create disunity and dissension in the church.

You’ve told the Pastor, he’s the head over that congregation and he hears from God (if he doesn’t you’re in the wrong church). He’ll know what to do. The Bible says we are to be subject to the governing authorities because God himself put them in that position to do his will. (That includes Sunday school teachers as well as, Pastors). If you’re truly convinced that this is the church that God has placed you in then you need to submit to the Pastor’s authority. (Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft) I f you’re not willing to submit to his authority in this, again he’s not preaching heresy or false doctrine, maybe you should consider finding a church where you are willing to be under their headship.

[Arkansas Paul]

I am a Christian, and go to church and I'll tell you if a leader of any kind got up and was spouting their personal opinions and nothing was done about it, I would find somewhere else to worship. Christian churches are about what's in the Bible. In fact the Bible says to speak where the word speaks and be silent where the word is silent. Church is no place for personal opinions. Period.

[sammy_adams]

Just how much child abuse will people put up with in the name of church unity and respecting authority figures?

Because that is what this old bat is doing.



:(

[mgkdrgn]

To put it bluntly, "Mrs. Smith" has a bug up her wazoo that needs to be removed. Either that or "Mrs. Smith" needs too be removed to a place where her 'bug" won't effect anyone else.

Your pastor is apparently well aware of the problem, and lacks the authority (?) or the will to do anything about it. (my vote would be the latter)

So, now it's down to your will.

[Yoda]

Explain to your kids the difference between facts and opinions. Encourage them to stand up, even at their young age, and explain to persons in authority that they don't agree with their opinions.

My oldest son, in 6th grade, had a math teacher explain to everyone in class how those military officers were so childish, because all they wanted was to have more nukes than the other guy. My son asked the teacher what his background was, then he explained that HIS dad (that would be me) had attended all sorts of military schools on the subject and had devoted his life to the issue, and he didn't consider his dad to be childish.

When my oldest son told me what he had done, I asked him what the teacher did after that. My son said that the teacher just got quiet for a short while, then he went back to teaching math.

- - - Yoda

[ljnowell]

As long as her doctrine is sound and she's teaching in accordance with your denomination's standards her opinion of the second amendment is irrelevant


Yes, her opinion is relevant because she reprimanded a child and forced her views upon him.

I wouldnt be as civil as you are. I had an issue with a sunday school teacher myself once. Long story:

I had an uncle who was a homosexual. He died a while back. Our family was very open about his orientation, as he had a life partner that he was with for almost 30 years. During sunday school the teacher told the class that all homosexuals go to hell no matter what. When my son questioned her she told him that his great uncle, that he loved, was in fact burning for eternity in hell. It didnt end pretty. While I do love the lord and love my church, I can have an acid tongue and it did not bother me a bit to pour it on her.

I feel that you need to stand up to her and tell her that she is not to teach these things to your child and shouldnt be teaching them to any child. You should also talk to your pastor again and tell him that he is in danger of "thinning his flock" if he doesnt correct her behavior.

[IndianaBoy]

Our Monsignor chuckled when my fiance asked for his permission to bring her glock to church. (Missouri law requires pastor permission.)

:D

[Rockwell1]

had an uncle who was a homosexual. He died a while back. Our family was very open about his orientation, as he had a life partner that he was with for almost 30 years. During sunday school the teacher told the class that all homosexuals go to hell no matter what. When my son questioned her she told him that his great uncle, that he loved, was in fact burning for eternity in hell. It didnt end pretty. While I do love the lord and love my church, I can have an acid tongue and it did not bother me a bit to pour it on her.


You just opened up a doctrinal can of "My God is better than your God " worms that has no place in this discussion. by begging the debate is homosexuality a sin (please note I'm offering no opinion )

The topic of this thread was how to deal with a second amendment issue within the confines of the church. The question was not doctrinal at all.

I predict a rapid desent into acrimony and name calling followed by threadlock

[Larry Ashcraft]

The topic of this thread was how to deal with a second amendment issue within the confines of the church.
Absolutely. Please keep on topic.

Religious discussion will get this shut down in a heartbeat.

[BonesofGa.]

I once told a young person that it's all right to get mad, it's how you deal with it that makes a difference. I don't care if we are talking about guns or religionin my church, my goal is not to send a kid home feeling like dukie! Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt. Salt being a preservative, but also makes you thirsty for more!

[SCKimberFan]

Absolutely. Please keep on topic.

It has been kept on topic. His post was an example, with a teacher making that statement. Other than that statement made by a Sunday School teacher in the example, this has been about what to do about the teacher in question. Even that post addressed the issue.

Please don't get too quick with the threadlock button.

[SleazyRider]

Seems to me this is a First Amendment issue, not a Second.

[ljnowell]

You just opened up a doctrinal can of "My God is better than your God " worms that has no place in this discussion. by begging the debate is homosexuality a sin (please note I'm offering no opinion )

The topic of this thread was how to deal with a second amendment issue within the confines of the church. The question was not doctrinal at all.

I predict a rapid desent into acrimony and name calling followed by threadlock


It is in fact an identical situation and I didnt open an anything into anyones religion. I was using anectdotal evidence to show what I would do when faced with a similar experience. My point was to explain that you do not have to be afraid to open your mouth because it is church. Thanks for being so useful in this thread and policing it, you are a virtue.

[ljnowell]

It has been kept on topic. His post was an example, with a teacher making that statement. Other than that statement made by a Sunday School teacher in the example, this has been about what to do about the teacher in question. Even that post addressed the issue.

Please don't get too quick with the threadlock button.

Thank you kimberfan, too many people here are too quick to jump on a bandwagon. I guess I messed up and said homosexual on a mainly conservative site. The point is the same. Speak up for yourself.

[chris in va]

I would tell her in no uncertain terms she is to keep her opinions to herself and in no way will publicly embarass my kids again.

[Rockwell1]

Thanks for being so useful in this thread and policing it, you are a virtue.

You're most welcome

[Larry Ashcraft]

Please don't get too quick with the threadlock button.
If you'll notice, usually I'm way too slow with the lock button.

Good thread, so far. Just a word to the wise.

[twinsdad]

The three big issuses are :
Her wastimg the time that has been set aside for the teaching of GOD's WORD and her treatment of the child. The third is she has exposed herself as having a lying spirit.

[GSonnen]

Seems to me this is a First Amendment issue, not a Second.

S.R., I think that is a very bright comment and very true.

I've read through all of this and every comment deserves some recognition.

The thoughts that I have resolved:

1) I don't want my children to think of gun ownership as something they need to keep "hidden" or "secret", yet they need to use some discretion as to how they speak of their family hobby. Our Right to Bear Arms is not a skeleton that needs to be hidden in a closet. I don't think this situation was a lack of discretion on my son's part.

2) I don't want to supercede the authority of my Pastor. He is my friend and a very loyal servant of the Lord. God has called him to lead our church and I have no place second guessing him here at a job he does very well. I like to respect authority where that respect is earned. Out Pastor has earned my respect and loyalty.

3) We don't want to use our children's lack of participation in Sunday School as a token or leverage in the matter. I feel that's passive-aggressive and I don't work that way. Today we did receive several emails from church friends wondering why we didn't attend Bible class or Sunday School yesterday. My wife and I are still attempting to formulate a response that is truthful, but not a source of gossip or ill will.

4) Leaving our church is not an option, unless things got really ugly. We have many friends in the congregation and have spent 10 years here.

5) I feel this is something we will struggle with for a while. All of you have been a source of insight that I appreciate. I'm sorry this is just my second post on THR. I've been a member here for a while, but just read the topics.

Thanks to all.

[akodo]

Go back to the pastor. Tell him you strongly believe in the 5th commandment, honor thy father and mother

"Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Exodus 20:12.

"Honor thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Deuteronomy 5:16.

"Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father . . . ," Leviticus 19:3.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and thy mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord," Ephesians 6:1-4.

"Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged," Colossians 3:20-21.

"My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother," Proverbs 1:8.

"A wise son maketh a glad father: but a foolish man despiseth his mother," Proverbs 15:20.


Then bring forth these


Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell

Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell

Clearly, this lady is making it hard for your children to follow the 5th commandment. This stumbling block cannot be allowed to remain in your life...or in their lives.

As a good christian, you have ONE option, and that is to seperate your children from this particular teacher.

This means one of three things.

#1 you find another church
#2 old lady is removed from her position
#3 you pull your kids out of class whenever she teaches.

Ask your pastor if he sees ANY other option that is consistent with what the bible commands.

I suspect he will relent and do some schedule swapping so that your kids never have her as their teacher. I also bet he has a real serious talk with her.

[akodo]

you talk about not wanting to use your children's absence from sunday school as a means of leverage.

Then don't use it as such, but I still think you are biblically required to remove them until conditions change.

Just don't say 'please change or I will remove my kids'

State 'I feel that the Word of God commands me to remove my children from a place where they are hindered in following God's Commandments, and I MUST remove them. Please understand.'

Really, I don't see this as any different from a sunday school teacher talking about 'It's okay to lie on insurance forms and get more money!'...or a sunday school teacher known to swear a blue streak, etc etc.

Surely, you'd pull your kids from a sunday school where the teacher mentioned that. Your pulling kids from that sundayschool wouldn't be 'leverage' it would simply be a protective act.

[DHJenkins]

What does "draw something you do for fun on the weekends" have to do with bible study?

Sounds like the old bat just wants to be in charge of some kids.

[Nate1778]

Next class have the boy draw targets. ;)

[CoRoMo]

James 1:19
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

Proverbs 10:19
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

Proverbs 16:32
He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.

Proverbs 17:27
He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

Ecclesiastes 7:9
Do not be eager in your heart to be angry, For anger resides in the bosom of fools.

James 4:11
Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

[ohgrady]

This is conduct between private individuals. The Bill of Rights is about restrictions on the Government to protect individuals from the Government.

If you invited your neighbor to a barbecue and he says something you disagree with, you can tell him to shut up and leave - it's not a First Amendment violation. If your neighbor showed up carrying, you can tell him, not on my property - that's not a Second Amendment violation. If you neighbor has a backpack, you can tell him you intend to search it if he comes in - it's not a Fourth Amendment violation.................

That aside, have others had problems with this teacher? What concerns me is having someone of apparent authority telling your children that guns are evil. That could effect your children's view of you - a child might think if guns are evil and Dad carries a gun, Dad is either involved in evil or is evil. Is this a church that has deacons and elders who play a role in how things operate? Maybe it's time to have a meeting about the teacher and Dad's enjoyment of his 2nd amendment rights?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I would specifically request (in writing; a letter) the church to take action to either (a) remove her from duties as sunday school teacher, or (b) instruct her that she is to never again impose her personal views on the children, which happen to inconsistent with the constitution, irrelevant to bible study, and specifically harmful to the psyche of your children. And explain why in great detail. Be very courteous and tactful, but firm. Send copy to pastor, all elders, all deacons.

If it doesn't work the first time, try again with another letter, and then "insist" rather than "request" that one of those actions be taken.

Then failing that, find new church.

P.S. I'm agnostic, if that matters.

[geniusiknowit]

This is something your children will continue to encounter.

The important thing is that they learn your son did nothing wrong, there's no reason to be ashamed, and there's no reason to keep it hush. There is no good reason why they should be "discrete" about the responsible ownership and usage of firearms.

If you teach them to be respectful toward others, to respect themselves, and to have a responsible attitude about firearms, they'll be better equipped to deal with these situations when they encounter them in the future.

As to how to deal with this woman... see how your children feel about her. If they really detest her, then they aren't going to be learning much from her. It may be better to pull them from the class when she rotates in, but you have to weigh that against how they may feel about being separated from the other children in the class, too.

[catspa]

I think Yoda and genius are on to something here. I was raised up in a church, backslid in my late teen years, and never came back. But I think this could be a valuable opportunity for your son to learn to deal with anti-2A beliefs held by others.

I think if it was my boy, I'd send him back into her class, having memorized the following sentence:

"Mrs. Smith, my family and I disagree with your belief, and would like to point out that the only reason you can state your anti-gun opinion freely is that people with guns fought and died for your right to do so."

Then I'd hide behind the doorpost and video the look on her face.

Parker