[El Rojo]

Ok, I am thinking I need a FAB-10 (the PRK legal AR lower with a 10 round fixed magazine). They aren't too darn expensive and I could get any upper I wanted! Bayo lug, flash suppressor, you name it. I could have it on this rifle because it doesn't have a detachable magazine.

So I probably would want to get a varmint upper first. I will probably mainly use this gun for shooting squirrels a little cheaper than the .308 and having less recoil. I would probably want to spend less than $500 for this upper.

Or should I just go for any old upper? I mean shooting squirrels at 300 yards or less can't require too much accuracy. Would a regular match 20" upper work fine? What about he 16" barrels?

I would like to get a colapsable stock and a 16" upper just for the tactical aspects even though a tactical receiver break down, strip 10 rounds in, push pin back into place, and charge gun wouldn't be too tactical. The idea is to get an AR even though they don't want me to have one and have some uppers laying around just in case the PRK changes its mind 20 years from now.

So give me some good upper manufacturers and prices. I would appreciate it. I will be tearing my Shotgun News apart, but asking you guys and gals is funner.

New Questions. Do I want an 8" or 9" twist for shooting squirrels? I would assume I want to shoot 55 gr V-max. Any and all input is appreciated.

[Badger Arms]

http://www.ultramag50.com/

http://www.ultramag50.com/mag%20side%20full.jpg

[Redlg155]

I've been very happy with the Armalite upper I have on a Bushy lower, but these are rather pricey. I paid something like $600 from Quantico Arms, but then that's the 24" stainless steel with the free floated fiberglass HG and other neat items installed. It also had the M4 feed ramp cuts.

Right now Rock River seems the best value out there. ADCO has varmint uppers in your choice of 16, 18 or 24" lengths for $500. If you prefer chrome lined barrels, the Bushy isnt' far off in price as well.

Be sure to check AR15.com for folks selling their uppers as well. I've seen some very nice deals there.

Oh....I've also been super happy with my RR 2 stage trigger. It's great on a varmint rifle.

Good Shooting
Red

[Badger Arms]

Okay, now the serious answer. DPMS makes some good, reasonably priced uppers. This is retail, you should be able to save a good bit by buying from a dealer.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=FTBL-LPC

http://www.dpmsinc.com/products/ftbl-lpc.jpg

Here's one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3629975428&category=36258

[El Rojo]

I forgot about eBay since these are uppers!!! I will search out the rest of your links tonight when I get home. Keep it coming guys! I am getting excited.

[No4Mk1*]

How do you reload a fixed magazine AR-15?

[Steve Smith]

El Rojo, easy answer! This will fit onto any FAB-10


http://www.aresdefense.com/images/Shrike%20Ad.jpg

[El Rojo]

Thanks Steve, but the powers that be decided we didn't need belt fed weapons either!!! :cuss:

[Redlg155]

That's terrible Steve. Messing with that mans emotions like that!! :D

Good Shooting
Red

[Jhaislet]

Is that belt-fed assembly post-ban legal???

[Steve Smith]

El, I don't see why not. Can't you have 10 round belts?

[El Rojo]

No belts period.

So what about twist rate? Do I want the 7", 8", 9" or 12"? I would think 9" for 55 gr. V-max.

[50 Freak]

hey El,

I think you can have a Shrike belt fed upper. As 1) it is only an upper and not registered. 2) belt fed weapons are already available for sale here in Kali. 3) only problem is the you can only have 10 round belts unless you happen to have had a belt that was "grandfathered" in. And since belts don't have any serial numbers or date of manufactor it would be impossible to know what is "grandfathered" or not. :rolleyes:

Also I would recommend building an upper to meet to your specs. The upper should be about 100, 200-250 for barrel, 100 for bolt. and you basically have spent $400-$450 for an upper that matches your specs exactly.

But then again, ebay is an excellent source for uppers.

Also, 1:9 twist barrel is probably the best bet. Gives the greatest range of bullet weights.

Good luck.

50

[El Rojo]

I think I discovered you can't have an AR belt fed gun. Here is why. PC 12276.1 says you can't have a
"A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.
And then the clencher
(d) The following definitions shall apply under this section:
(1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device.
(2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of
accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

So if your belt fed weapon, regardless of belt size, has a pistol grip stock or flash suppressor, no can do. Then to top it off, I don't know how you would find 10 round belts that were incapable of accepting more than 10 rounds. Afterall they must be permanently altered in order not to accept more than 10 rounds.

So I could get me a semi-auto M2HB if I could find 10 round belts for it. Just about everything else is out.

Back to ARs, how hard is it to put a complete AR together. That means if I get the upper and barrel seperate, how much is it going to cost me to have the gun smith put it all together?

[50 Freak]

EL,

I'd check a little more on this as the statue your quote says "semiautomatic, centerfire rifle". An upper is not a rifle, but simply an upper, non serial numbered part" Now if you place that upper on a Fab10 lower, then you will be creating a "semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" and that is where the gray area comes in. And actually my opinion is if you have a belt (as I believe the shrikes take the cloth belts) and you cut it so that it takes only 10 rounds, isn't that something you can't reverse?

I've heard of people buying belt feds (Ma Dueces) here in Kali, but ultimately it comes down to you to check on the legalities of something, don't take the word of anyone on the boards. If their wrong, its you thats going to have a date with a jar of vaseline and an inmate named Bubba, not them.

As for building an Ar, they are the easiest rifles to build. I suggest you complete the upper yourself as it is a very good learning experience. If you can assemble a model airplane, you are overqualified to build an AR upper. Only problem that you may have is tightening the barrel to the upper. Take it to a smith and have him do it for you. I didn't have the wrench to do it so I took it to Jackson Arms in S San Fran. The guys there did it for me for free. Took them 30 seconds.

I built my upper exactly the way I wanted. Flattop FN manufactor (Fulton Armory $75), with fluted Bushmaster bull barrel ($175 ebay) and standard front sight (came with barrel), KAC RIS handguards ($100 picked up from gun show), and GG&G flip up back sight (Fulton Armory $75). All for $425 not including bolt. If you were to buy this same configuration it would cost you in the excess of $750, not including bolt.

[keederdag]

If you want to shoot 55 grn ammo; 1-10 or 1-9 is about right, also gives some flexibility to go heavier.:)

[uglygun]

Interesting debate going on with respect to the lower receivers and the discussion of what is and isn't a gun...


Remember folks, California DOJ decides what is and isn't kosher when it comes to the AR15 and AK47 as they are considered "series" types as covered under the 1989 Roberti/Roos ban. The AR15 and AK47 receivers are considered the "assault weapon" regardless of configuration, a special case was made for the FAB-10 and the DPMS single shot lower for them to be legal, to me it is a BIG surprise that the DOJ allowed it. If not for the SHRIKE than for the few STEN type upper assemblies out there for the AR15, both setups could virtually bipass the modifications made to the DPMS single shot lower or the FAB-10. If the DOJ finds out about these uppers, the status of all FAB-10 and DPMS single shot lowers could change over night. Think about it, the Ca. DOJ has a history of flopping on this when they set a new precedent on the SKS Sporter rifles.

Way I look at it, the FAB-10 and single shot DPMS lower are a good thing. Kinda hesitant at being a test case on some of this stuff though by getting one and then making it into something the Ca. DOJ wasn't aware of when considering approving it for sale.


As for belts.... TRICKY situation there. Know of a few places that sell linked ammo but get this, they've broken the links so that they won't sell it in a link longer than 10 rounds to a link. I think they put their hands over their eyes and yell out "la la la la, I can't see what you do with it after it leaves my store" once the customer has left the premises. I see 50BMG surp sold this way from time to time. Don't want to even think of the potential hornets nest that could come of all this for "importation of a high cap feeding device" if the Ca. DOJ came sniffing around. Seen some linked 308Win sold in a similar way.



Anyhow, I'm fairly interested in getting a DPMS single shot lower receiver because I'm half tempted to get one of those Ultra Mag-50 uppers, I'd rather pound the crap out of a single shot DPMS unit than risk any damage to my full fledged Ca. registered AR15s.

But I'm also hesitant to get a 50BMG upper just yet, I'd prefer a complete rifle with paper trail and serial number in the event that the things get added to the NFA regulations one day. Easier to go through the registration process if I had a AR50 probably than if I had a non-identified upper that I had to have serial numbered and wind up treating it like a Lightning Link or DIAS(I assume that is how they'd be treated) but that's a discussion for another time/thread.


El_Rojo, my custom AR15 that you fired many moons ago was a 1:9 twist. It shoots 40-55grain Vmaxes just fine :) The 40s shoot wicked nice at distances in as close as 100 yards. Haven't found a real sweet spot yet with the 55s, I may try the 60grn Vmaxes soon plus they are probably more suitable for them WAY OUT FAR critters that we were having such difficulty with last time we went shooting.

Personally, if I were gonna go for a long range AR, I'd prefer a 1:8 where I know it's gonna stabilize the heavier 75-77 grain offerings. It is borderline with the 1:9, some stabilize them fine and some don't(tighter towards 1:8 usually do it while slower towards 1:10 often don't, velocity matters too). By going with 1:8 you'd probably sacrifice the ability to use 40-45grn fly weight bullets at ludicrous velocities, but 55-60grn Vmaxes likely will do just fine at any velocity the 223Rem can squirt them out at.



What's the matter, you lose my email address or somethin? Building an AR15 lower assembly is a piece of cake, most difficult part is installing the front pivot pin detent and being careful to not losing the dent or firing the dent off into your eye if you accidently let it shoot out.

Upper assemblies are a tad more difficult if you build from a stripped upper receiver, need a torque wrench and a barrel nut wrench. Lining up the gas tube can be slightly tricky. In the end it's just so much easier to buy one of the many upper assemblies out there that are offered in virtually every flavor imaginable, something out there will meet your fancy.


And if you want to get a bit of an AR15 fix, I'm planning to head out to McKittrick this weekend with a friend to do a bit of shooting. Gonna put my 300WinMag through it's paces while getting in some practice using the Mil-Dot reticle, gonna go for grouping the WinMag at 500 yards and beyond. Wouldn't mind busting some bunnies as well.

[ElToro]

arent those 1919 browning repros cali legal ? the have a pistol grip that hangs off the end..

that FAB 10 just doesnt do it for me... have you seen how you have to reload it ? what a CF !

[50 Freak]

El,

Yeah the Shrike uppers don't do it for me either. I'm lucky that I have a grandfathered AR so I don't have to deal with the FAB10. A couple of BetaMags would pretty much have the same function and be a lot cheaper. Only use really for a shrike is for the Class 3 people. And getting a Class 3 here in Kali is just about as likely as Rosie O'Donnell winning the Miss America Contest while being married to Michael Jackson. It just ain't going to happen.

Not many options left for us here in Kali. Have you considered either a FAL or a M1A, or Mini-14 or even the Robinson Arms M96? That looks to be very promising. All can be bought in Kali (minus pistol grips).

I agree with Ugly, I'm going to have to pick up a DPMS single shot lower as I plan to put a Ultramax 50 upper on it. And if for any chance I do decide on the Shrike upper, a DPMS lower would surfice perfectly.

Also yes the 1919 Belt fed is legal in Kali, so I don't see why a Shrike on an AR lower wouldn't be.

[Hkmp5sd]

http://www.brpguns.com/images/xmg.ht1.jpg
http://www.brpguns.com/images/scope7.jpg
Yes, that really is an AR lower under all of that.

[50 Freak]

Very nice, whats the specifics?

[El Rojo]

"even the Robinson Arms M96". Doesn't the M96 have a pistol grip? That would make it an AW. Wait you are right, it didn't make it on the list so you could concievably take the pistol grip off. I already have an M1A, but I want an AR type gun darn it!

Ugly, I could build an upper because I could probably get Leroy Johnson to work on it (gunsmith that works out of his garage in Rosedale). He just told me he couldn't work on ARs because of transfer issues, but he didn't know about the FAB-10. However, I think I agree with you, less hassle to just buy a complete upper with a headspaced bolt.

Sounds like I probably want to get a 1-8" twist. That way if I want to shoot some heavier bullets I can. Keep the input coming guys, I have about 8 AR links from the internet. Thanks for the help.

[50 Freak]

El,

Robinson Arms sells a model specifically for the Kali Market. They basically ship a rifle to you without a pistol grip. The AR bolt pretty much headspaces itself, so you don' t really need to worry about it. But your probably right. For your first AR, you should just buy a complete upper. You can always build another upper and configure that for "tactical" "sniper" or etc later, as you become more familiar with the AR class of weapons.

One thing about ARs is they are very versitile. They will take all caliber down from a .22 to a 50 bmg with just one lower. Wish I had bought more ARs before they got banned in Kali.

Best luck and AR-15.com is the absolute best place for info about ARs.

[Hkmp5sd]

Very nice, whats the specifics?

Sorry, forgot to post the link.

It's a WWII MG-34 upper in 8mm Mauser manufactured by BRP Corp (http://www.brpguns.com/). It's a tiny bit expensive at $4,750 a copy. But worth it if you have a select fire M16 lower. A .308 conversion is available for $1,200.

[El Rojo]

http://www.phoric.com/upper.jpg
Bushmaster 20" Pre-Ban V-Match Complete Upper Receiver, flat-top, fluted, includes bolt carrier assembly (including charging handle), birdcage flash hider. Only 100 rounds put through the barrel. These fluted uppers are $625 new from Bushmaster, I'm selling for $475. Shipping via UPS ground is included. It shoots great and is in new condition. I accept pre-payment by paypal or money order.
I talked him down to $450 shipped!!! I am now a 1/2 official AR-15/FAB-10 owner boys and girls!!! I am getting excited. My compliments to the king of fire support Redlg155 for suggesting the AR15.com classifieds. I can't wait! I still have to get my FFL dealer to get in touch with the FAB-10 people and see how much that is going to run me.

Here is what I need help with now. First, I am probably going to need to get a lower receiver parts kit, as I believe the FAB-10 comes stripped. I have heard people recommend the RRA 2 stage NM trigger. Could I just get a standard parts kit and standard trigger and have a local gunsmith trick it out? I need to call my trigger guy and find out if he can do ARs. Just got off the phone with him. He can turn a standard AR trigger into anything I want it to be for $70! Plus I will probably have him put on my QD stud too! [evil grin, delighted smile]

Next, what kind of scope rings should I get for this flat top? How tall ought they be for a 40mm scope and then for a 50mm scope. I would ideally like to get another Leupold 6.5-20x50 LRT, but the budget is tight. So I might get a 4-12x40 of some sort to hold me over.

I will probably need an Accuwedge too right?

Keep hooking me up brothers and sisters. I need to cram this AR stuff. Thanks for all of your help so far.

[Hkmp5sd]

Why be normal? :)
http://www.redstarmuseum.com/images/fab10/colors/16.jpg

[Sven]

Nice project - I will probably follow suit at some point. Looks like you got a great deal!

[45R]

I had a chance to shoot a FAB10 today. It was interesting. Something about having a neutered AR is disturbing. The rifle shot great but the rifle jammed once and it was a pain in the ??? to clear and the joke of the day was that you need a punch and a rubber mallet for take down.


How about a SU16 from Keltec?

[dave3006]

Nothing personal to El Rojo. I just can't do the FAB-10 thing. As a prisoner of occupied Kali, I would rather drive to Arizona and buy the real thing before I purchased this abortion of a perfectly good rifle. Every time I would pick up the thing, it would remind me of how much I hate the socialists.

I have my Garand and a Mini-14. That will have to do for now until we are liberated.

[uglygun]

Armalite's 1 piece scope mount is pretty decent, for mounting a scope to an AR15 flattop it's about perfect.

The only exception, I find that it doesn't allow enough room for forward mounting scopes with REALLY long eye relief. That is part of the reason I put an adjustable butt plate on my rifle, to get additional stock length for a proper cheek weld behind my 6.5-20 Leupold Long Range. But I'm also a tall wookie like creature, it helps to have a longer stock as it just fits the rifle better to me.


Was out in McKittrick today, got in some GOOD shooting while putting my mil-dot scope to use.... ranged the target for 500 yards and shot some groups, after it was all said and done my friend whips out his GPS unit and marks the waypoint of the shooting position and the target position. Results came in as .28 miles! That's 495 yards! Even if the silly thing was rounding up to .28 miles from something like .275-.279 it's still a very close range stimation as .27 miles is 475 yards.

Just need to work on my load, was trying a new load today and it's not quite flat enough, I'd guess muzzle velocity for the 190grn SMK is right around 2750-2800 as it's only a midrange starting load. Gonna push the charge weight up and see if I can get it closer to the 2900-2950 range. The load I shot today was about 1.5MOA lower at 500 yards than a previous load I had tried.

Group size was just over 7 inches in extreme spread but all shots landed on an 8x14 inch piece of legal paper that I was using for a target and as a known size object for purposes of ranging.


I LOVE THE MIL-DOT MASTER!

El_Rojo, I'll be ready to go shooting again in a week or so. Maybe we can head out yonder and put some rounds down range, you can see if you like my JP Enterprises single stage trigger on my accurized AR15. Plus I want to put my accurized AR on paper at 500, I haven't yet put it on paper at any distance beyond 100 yards.

[El Rojo]

If anyone is interested in possibly getting a FAB-10, let me know. There might be a quantity discount. My FFL charges cost + 10% + s/h + tax + dros. I always get my guns cheaper with him. If you within 2-3 hours of Bakersfield, it might be worth it to go in on one of these "neutered" guns. There are plenty of places to shoot round here as well so you can pick up your gun and shoot for free all at the same time.

[Steve Smith]

If I were in your shoes, I'd find a good pro-2nd lawyer, discuss it with him, and get a friggin Shrike. A belt is not a feeding device. Without a spring it cannot feed crap. It HOLDS ammunition, but cannot feed it. The upper feeds the belt though it, not the other way round.

I'm not telling you what to do, but if I were in your shoes I'd take the step.

[El Rojo]

Wasn't the price tag on that thing like over 2g's? Sorry Steve, not even remotely in my ball park.

[Steve Smith]

3gs, actually. I'd expand my ball park.




Steve, still wanting to build that 1919 this winter...hmmm.

[artherd]

Steve- know any good lawyers?

$3k and sticking it to the antis in GRAND style sounds like a good deal to me.

Going to have a difficult time taking it to the same range the local CHP frequents though.

It may, actually, be CA legal. And CA can't add to their laws, withought renewing them and allowing another window to 'register' AWs.


From http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/revregs2.htm

"Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine;"

So 10 round belts then. Good. All my existing stock of 5.56mm belts were purchased YEARS ago, in cash. Probally also want to avoid something like a fixed SAW type can for ~200rounds.