1860 Army .44 Trouble Shooting question.


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Ratdog68
June 24, 2009, 04:52 AM
My friend (Andy) told me this evening that he's noticed his revolver isn't behaving normally.

When the muzzle is pointed down and he goes to cock the hammer, it doesn't. However... when the muzzle is pointed up and he goes to cock it, it functions normally.

I told him I'd inquire here. I don't own one, so, I'm not too familiar with 'em. Am I off base with expecting it's going to be rather similar to my Walker? M'be an issue with the wedge not seating the cylinder correctly... allowing it to slide forward when muzzle down and seating correctly when muzzle up? I haven't had the opportunity to see it first hand to inspect it myself... but will probably have a chance to do so next Tuesday when I see him again.

Anyone have anything further I should look for ?

Thanks for your time.

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Oyeboten
June 24, 2009, 05:56 AM
...possibly...the Spring which tensions the Hand, is broken...

mykeal
June 24, 2009, 08:01 AM
It's not a problem with cylinder end play. Oyeboten is correct, the hand spring is either broken or bent so that it isn't providing enough force to push the end of the hand into the ratchet teeth on the back of the cylinder.

The Walker shares the same action design as the other Colt open tops from that era, with the exception of the Paterson.

BHP FAN
June 24, 2009, 10:39 AM
+1 on your hand,or hand spring being broken.

Ratdog68
June 24, 2009, 10:54 AM
Any special tools needed to make a repair? Where would a feller turn for an exploded view of the gun?

BCRider
June 24, 2009, 12:38 PM
If the problem only showed up after a complete strip down and cleaning it may just have gone back together wrong. Or the hand's pivot pin may have sheared or loosened and fallen out, the spring may have broken, or even the metal of the hand itself may have broken.

It could be any one of about 4 or 5 things but I have to agree that it sure sounds like an issue with the hand assembly. To fix it you'll need an assortment of tools including a spring winding jig and assortment of music wire and maybe a bench, vise, metal stock, files, etc to make a new hand if it has cracked off the finger...... :D

So it's likely that you may not be able to fix it first time out unless it's just a misassembly issue. The first trip will probably be an exploratory one to find the issue. So enough well fitting screwdrivers to disassemble the gun and a few basics is all you're going to need for the first trip.

Ratdog68
June 24, 2009, 12:51 PM
To my knowledge... he hasn't done anything with the gun for a while... he's been pretty busy with life.

rcflint
June 24, 2009, 02:10 PM
Look on the VTIgunparts website. there is an exploded view and parts list there of the 1860, both the Uberti and the Pietta.

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/default.asp

mykeal
June 24, 2009, 02:11 PM
To fix it you'll need an assortment of tools including a spring winding jig and assortment of music wire and maybe a bench, vise, metal stock, files, etc to make a new hand if it has cracked off the finger......

Be careful. Some people might not understand that you're kidding - even with the smiley face.

All you need is a set of gunsmithing screwdrivers - about $25. You can use household screwdrivers but you stand a very good chance of damaging the screw heads.

Here's a breakdown; this happens to be an 1860 Army, but it still applies as far as the action parts are concerned.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%201860%20Army/Uberti_1860ArmySchem.jpg

Ratdog68
June 24, 2009, 02:35 PM
Already familiar with the need for the right screw drivers for working on firearms... and have them. Having never had one of these open, figured it'd be prudent to find out if there's a special tool needed for the job. LOL BCRider owes me a little fodder here and there... I took it as such. :neener:

Appreciate the exploded view of it. Nice to have it to reference to... thankee mucho.

BCRider
June 24, 2009, 03:00 PM
WHAT? ! ? ! YOU DON'T HAVE A PORTABLE SHOP IN THE TRUNK OF YOUR CAR! ? ! ? I thought everyone did.... :D

Just thinking that if it's been a while and he's been busy enough to just shoot and do a basic cleaning rather than a full on down and deep cleaning that the action may be fouled with powder residue and the hand is just stuck. Certainly I was shocked at how much crud was in the actions of my Remmies after that one day. Not sure when they were last fully stripped down before I got them so I guess I'll find out now that I know I'm starting from squeaky clean guns..... Yeah, yeah, I know.... if they are squeaky then I need to oil 'em.... :D

Ratdog68
June 24, 2009, 03:14 PM
Trying to rebuild the tool supply... three burglaries on the job-site last year and I lost $15,000 worth of tools in all. No... the Seattle PD aren't doin' squat either.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's just all gunked up. Don't know if he's taken it down for a deep cleaning (ever). I've known him for about a year, and don't think it's been shot in that time... how long before? I dunno.

Tommygunn
June 24, 2009, 03:21 PM
If the cylinder doesn't rotate with the muzzle pointing down, as the OP said, the handspring isn't likely broken.
If it was broken, aiming the gun upward would cause it to fail to push forward and engage the cylinder ratchet. It would probably engage the ratchet if aimed down, though, unless it was gunked up.

When the muzzle is pointed down and he goes to cock the hammer, it doesn't. However... when the muzzle is pointed up and he goes to cock it, it functions normally.

Oyeboten
June 24, 2009, 04:30 PM
Good point Tommygunn...


It was late night and I had it bass ackwards...Lol...


Hmmmmm...side play in Hand, maybe?

Cylinder end-play...binding/catching on the front somehow..?

Fingers McGee
June 24, 2009, 09:00 PM
If the cylinder doesn't rotate with the muzzle pointing down, as the OP said, the handspring isn't likely broken.
If it was broken, aiming the gun upward would cause it to fail to push forward and engage the cylinder ratchet. It would probably engage the ratchet if aimed down, though, unless it was gunked up.


And it only took 13 posts for someone to think of this.

Each time I had a hand spring break, I pointed the pistol down when cocking so gravity would drop the hand into the cylinder ratchet to advance to the next chamber.

Not advancing when pointing down leads me to believe end play is the culprit.

madcratebuilder
June 25, 2009, 08:32 AM
Not advancing when pointing down leads me to believe end play is the culprit.

+1
The tip of the hand could be broken or worn.

junior geezer
June 25, 2009, 02:37 PM
as noted in a previous thread herein, i have had numerous problems with the wedge(s) on my steel-frame replica 1860 Army; they eventually becoming bent through repeated firing. on more than one occasion, to fire off my last remaining charges, i would have to point my revolver skyward while cocking, as this was the only way i could get the cylinder to turn. a bent wedge can make for excessive end play.

Ratdog68
June 25, 2009, 02:49 PM
he had it bas-ackwards. It advances when pointed down, does not when pointed upwards. I'm also suspecting that it hasn't been opened up and given a good cleaning... and he hadn't heard of lubing the gun with a veg-based oil for use and a petroleum based for long term storage. It's probably all gunked up. He also didn't know about not using gunsmithing screwdrivers on his gun. I'll be seein' him next Tuesday and will be bringing my screwdrivers with me and see what I find inside.

Thanks all for your input.

Fingers McGee
June 25, 2009, 04:47 PM
he had it bas-ackwards. It advances when pointed down, does not when pointed upwards. I'm also suspecting that it hasn't been opened up and given a good cleaning... and he hadn't heard of lubing the gun with a veg-based oil for use and a petroleum based for long term storage. It's probably all gunked up. He also didn't know about not using gunsmithing screwdrivers on his gun. I'll be seein' him next Tuesday and will be bringing my screwdrivers with me and see what I find inside.


In that case, it's definitely a broken hand spring.

BHP FAN
June 25, 2009, 05:03 PM
parts # 18 and #7 [in that diagram] are suspect.

Ratdog68
June 25, 2009, 05:33 PM
Appreciate the input fellers... mykeal for the schematic, and BHP Fan, for the part number reference too.

Smokin_Gun
June 25, 2009, 07:29 PM
When the muzzle is pointed down and he goes to cock the hammer, it doesn't. However... when the muzzle is pointed up and he goes to cock it, it functions normally.

What is said above would be just the opposite if it were a handspring being broken.
Held bbl down the hand would fall forward to the cylinder and turn it and the bolt would lock up...held bbl up it couldn't turn the cylinder...

Fingers it only took me one reading :O) I just read it...

Hellgate
June 28, 2009, 11:30 PM
Same thing happened to me with two different ASM Colt's revolvers in a single match: Broken hand spring. I had to point the gun down to cock it. I have successfully replaced the hand springs with a good bobby pin spring by pulling out the broken spring (used a sharp chisel to slightly flare the insertion of the spring) then put in the proper length of bobby pin segment, peened it in place and the hand worked great. It had more tension than the original but has worked like a charm.

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 03:12 AM
As it turns out, his 1860 is a Pietta, not an Uberti. I took it apart tonight and found that the "trigger and bolt spring" (#26 in the Pietta diagram) is broken. As you lay the gun with trigger facing upward... the right hand side of the spring was not only broken off, but missing altogether. The screw head was a bit buggered up, leading me to suspect the gun's been dug around inside at least once before. Andy told me he's never had the gun apart. He bought it used. There was a minor amount of brown uglies just beginning to grow inside. All we had on hand at his leather shop was some 600 grit paper and some WD-40. So... we buffed everything clean with it and wiped it all down good.

Upon reassembly, I found that the "roller" (#20 in the diagram) on the hammer does not spin/turn. Since all I had available was WD-40... we shot a bit in there to soak.

With the muzzle raised, the hammer does not lock in the cocked position, the trigger remains rearward, as if having been pulled to fire. It functions normally with the muzzle parallel with the floor or pointed downward.

Everything else seems to be pretty good inside his puppy. Never had one of those apart, simple enough to tear down. I note that his is set up to accept the carbine stock attachment. He had no idea until I showed it to him and explained how it attaches.

Who's a good source for parts for these?

rcflint
July 8, 2009, 03:35 AM
VTIgunparts.com

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 03:36 AM
VTIgunparts.com
Grassy-Ass Ameeeeeego !

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 03:50 AM
1860 shoulder stock: Dixie Gun Works has them - $175 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7272)

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 08:53 AM
I assume you did not replace the broken trigger/bolt spring; the characteristic of not going into full cock with the muzzle raised is consistent with that spring being broken/bent.as you described (if I understood it correctly).

The 'roller' in the hammer does not need to spin; it only needs to be round. Keeping the surface lubricated is all that's necessary.

You can lubricate the action parts with regular gun oil; these parts do not see the combustion temperatures in the cylinder and barrel so the 'no petroleum based oils' prohibition does not generally apply. However, mineral oil based lubricants/rust preventatives work just as well, and since they should be used in the combustion areas, there's no reason not to use them in the action as well.

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 11:00 AM
I assume you did not replace the broken trigger/bolt spring; the characteristic of not going into full cock with the muzzle raised is consistent with that spring being broken/bent.as you described (if I understood it correctly).

The 'roller' in the hammer does not need to spin; it only needs to be round. Keeping the surface lubricated is all that's necessary.

You can lubricate the action parts with regular gun oil; these parts do not see the combustion temperatures in the cylinder and barrel so the 'no petroleum based oils' prohibition does not generally apply. However, mineral oil based lubricants/rust preventatives work just as well, and since they should be used in the combustion areas, there's no reason not to use them in the action as well.
No, not replaced last night. Now that he knows what's wrong, he can arrainge for buying a replacement. Last night was purely exploratory surgery and a good cleaning. When he gets the part in, I'll get it lubed up well inside with a proper oil. For now... the WD-40 residue is better than the gunk I found inside of it. LOL

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 11:03 AM
1860 shoulder stock: Dixie Gun Works has them - $175 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7272)
Yes, so I see. I think he needs one.

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 11:23 AM
I believe he does too. Pics and range reports, of course. :cool:

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 11:55 AM
Yep. No problem with the WD-40 and diagnostic surgery. Well done, really, especially since you claim no great experience inside the action. Lots of people would be reluctant to do what you did.

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 12:04 PM
Yep. No problem with the WD-40 and diagnostic surgery. Well done, really, especially since you claim no great experience inside the action. Lots of people would be reluctant to do what you did.
LOL The fun part was waiting until I had it almost completely apart (now... he's intently looking over my shoulder to see what I'm doing so he can have some sort of idea as to the steps I'm using... and voicing the order of things coming out and how they laid in there... ) and lookin' at him and sayin'.... "I've never seen the inside of one of these... I love learning on someone else's gun." (True statement too... I was learning on the fly). He just smiled and muttered under his breath "A-hole". Heck... I didn't even have any left over pieces when I was done !!!

What was even funnier was... he asked me if I'd brought my screwdrivers with me (when I got there). I told him to go get his gun. He says... it's right here !! (Sitting infront of him was MY 1858 NMA which I'd just laid down) I looked at him and said "Uhhh... we're taking YOUR gun apart... YOURS is the 1860 Colt version." He got this stupid grin on his face and says... "Yeah... I knew that" and went and got his gun.

Well... "leather class" never did get around to my working on my pattern for the holster I'm going to make for my 1858 NMA... (which is why mine was there)... but, I had more fun tinkering on/with his.

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 12:23 PM
Strangely, I've always found it easier to work on other people's property too. There have been numerous times I couldn't bring myself to crack a project open, until I had performed the exact same thing on something owned by another. With a friend like me, who needs an enemy? Right? :D

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 01:11 PM
I ever broke into a Colt was my buddies brass frame 51 Navy .
He broke the trigger-stop spring . Brought over the part he ordered from God Knwos where , and did not have the old one . The new one was WRONG , too long . Had to pull apart one of my revovlers to figure out what it should look like, then went to work with my files . It came out perfect . That was a stressfull lesson . Key was to buck up your confidence level and go for it . Now I am unstoppable , nothing will deter me from repairs . Its just a machine , I can build it if someone else can , with the right tools that is .
The only way to learn these and save hundreds of dollars in repairs is to do them yourself :) These Repros are so innexpensive and parts even cheaper , why not dive right in ? Do several repairs , then start workin on trigger honing and smoothin stuff out . There is ample litterature and WEB info of how to also out there . Dive in !

Das Jaeger :)

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 01:29 PM
Well, there are some things, like trigger sears, that really should be left to experienced people. Getting a sear wrong could be quite dangerous.

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 01:57 PM
Well, there are some things, like trigger sears, that really should be left to experienced people. Getting a sear wrong could be quite dangerous.
Ya mean? I should'nt've gone with giving it the Presidential Solution while I was in there?

http://www.cpomakita.com/images/product/large/9564cv.jpg

;)

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 02:06 PM
That's about enough tool for the task. Any task. :what:

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 02:20 PM
would you go about getting experienced MyKeal ?
It aint magic , its mechanics , and math , and a fine hand and eye . Aint hard , it just takes doing it enough . I also stated you should start small . Then end big , then keep it up , master it , perfect it , etc, etc ....Like I also stated its extremely cheap to replace parts on these repros .
How do you think gunsmiths learn , they do it , they ruin stuff too , they jump in thats how , over and over and over and over till they get it right .
You trust your safety to only a gunsmith ? Interesting .

Das Jaeger , nobody is a Master until your a Master of learning , its mental . :)

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 05:49 PM
I don't believe anything I wrote said one shouldn't do one's own work, small or large, cheap or expensive. All I said was that there are some tasks that should not be done by inexperienced people. Not all, just some. Every gunsmith I know, in fact, every skilled worker I know, learned their craft from an experienced teacher, a craftsman. Some went to school, others worked alongside and under the eye of someone who had the experience being sought. That's where the learned how to properly dress a sear. They didn't work on a dozen until they got one right, leaving the mistakes to someone to endanger others with.

I did not say that you shouldn't take a Colt percussion revolver apart, clean it, replace parts, reassemble it and shoot it. I did suggest that if one decides the sear needs polishing that one should seek some help with that.

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 06:06 PM
if you have the oportunity to go to school, or learn under a Smith , for sure . Fortuntley I had both and learned from the Master more than school ever began to teach me even before entering school .
Nobody taught the Masters , they became Masters by doing first . Chicken or the egg here ? There was never a Master until someone Mastered it on their own to start with , right ? Then the Master might have taught it to someone else .
I don't recommend sear work either for the unexperienced . The only way I know of to learn it is to do it and try it out , under someone or not . If you want to learn it that is .

Sincerely , Das Jaeger :)

BCRider
July 8, 2009, 06:49 PM
LOL The fun part was waiting until I had it almost completely apart (now... he's intently looking over my shoulder to see what I'm doing so he can have some sort of idea as to the steps I'm using... and voicing the order of things coming out and how they laid in there... ) and lookin' at him and sayin'.... "I've never seen the inside of one of these... I love learning on someone else's gun." (True statement too... I was learning on the fly). He just smiled and muttered under his breath "A-hole". Heck... I didn't even have any left over pieces when I was done !!!

So apparently being a "character" isn't a prerequisite to be a member here in the BP forum but it sure don't hurt.... No wonder we all get along so well.... :D

I don't really see anything wrong with opening stuff and looking it over even by a novice. It's when the files, stones and angle grinders come out that it's time for a sober second look and a session of "measure three times before cutting" before laying hand to tool.

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 08:04 PM
and for sure a bigger hammer won't fix it if the little hammer already ruined it .
Treade slowly doing any of the work no matter how minor is a good motto .. :)
If you think its beyond you , it probably is , but it doesn't mean you can't try it or learn to do it eventually . And there is only one way to do that , DIVE IN . :)

Das Jaeger :)

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 08:19 PM
So apparently being a "character" isn't a prerequisite to be a member here in the BP forum but it sure don't hurt.... No wonder we all get along so well.... :D

I don't really see anything wrong with opening stuff and looking it over even by a novice. It's when the files, stones and angle grinders come out that it's time for a sober second look and a session of "measure three times before cutting" before laying hand to tool.
LOL Hopefully, it's characters (like a number of us here) that keep the rest coming back to be entertained a little bit. I know that I just try to not take myself so seriously that I forget to have fun while doing something. If'n yaz ain't havin' fun... what's da point in doin' it?

Ratdog68
August 29, 2009, 11:16 PM
Traditions sent me a replacement Trigger Bolt Spring (#19) (which was broken). Today, I pulled Andy's gun apart and replaced the spring. The adventure continues. Exploded view included for reference.

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/images/cats/Pietta_1860_Army_1861_Navy.jpg

Upon reassembling the gun, initially, when cocked, the trigger was not setting against the sear, but the cylinder would rotate and the hammer would drop under spring tension as soon as you'd let go of the hammer. That seemed to correct itself very quickly and then would cock the hammer if the gun were levelled as if firing. If it was laid over on it's side (gangsta style) while cocking, it wouldn't remain cocked and locked. Same was true if barrel oriented downward and upward. That appeared to have worked itself back to normal with some more cycling of the hammer.

Here's where the gun stands at present...

Cock the gun with barrel oriented upward and it overrotates the cylinder's timing by about 1/3 of the hammer's width. Pull the trigger and the cylinder back peddles itself one complete chamber cycle (to the same 1/3 hammer width over-rotation). The bolt (#12) does not move upward and engage the cylinder... at all.
Cock the gun with the barrel oriented: downward, level, and laid over (gangsta style) and the only change is, the cylinder does not back peddle as it does if oriented upward. The over rotation remains the same and the bolt does not engage the cylinder.
I tried varying the tension of the hold down screw (#33) for the Trigger Bolt Spring. If good and snug, the cylinder over-rotates the cylinder to one half of the hammer's width. As I loosened the hold down screw to the point of no longer being able to hear the clicks while cocking... it corrected it only to the point of being 1/3 of the hammer's width of over-rotation. Snugging it down until I can hear the clicks again, but not as snug as before... it remains at the 1/3 width of the hammer's over-rotation.


If I VERY softly cock the gun, the cylinder rotates into the properly timed location... but, the bolt does not move up and engage the cylinder.

The hand (#7) seems to engage and rotate the cylinder just fine... but, if the barrel is oriented upward... the hand appears to be pulling the "back peddle" affect to the cylinder since the bolt is not moving upward to engage the cylinder. I would suspect that the end play present of the cylinder moving on the base pin (#21) is causing the hand to back peddle the cylinder as the hand retracts... thanks to gravity pulling the cylinder against the hand.

With the barrel assembly off and the cylinder off the base pin... cocking the hammer and pulling trigger... I feel some very definate staging and creep in the trigger before it breaks from the sear.

History... this gun was acquired by my friend Andy "used". He accepted it in trade for some of his talents with leatherwork. He has never fired the gun. When I pulled the gun apart initially to inspect it... I found it gunked up with powder sludge and gun oil. The Trigger Bolt Spring was broken when I opened it up... and the portion of it that had broken off was nowhere to be found inside. The hold down screw was buggered up. So... it would appear my friend received a buggered up gun as the payment for his time. The long/straight portion of the Trigger Bolt Spring (which works with the trigger) is the portion of it that was missing. The replacement Spring I received from Traditions has a bit more arc to the portion that is like the remaining part (which operates the bolt) of the original spring. The new one is also just a hair wider than the shorter portion of the original (which operates the bolt).

The only thing I haven't cleaned (yet) are the nipples. I didn't have a nipple wrench intially... but, I do now. So... I know I'll be working with a clean/oiled action as this little adventure progresses.

His Jaegerness has been kind enough to volunteer to walk me through the troubleshooting/repair phases. :cool: Now... we'll see if I can follow directions. :D And, the good news... I get to practice on/learn on someone else's gun. :evil: WITH the owner's knowledge/permission. Cracking it open to clean the action was way beyond his comfort zone, so, he's happy to get some help.

As a side note... this Pietta 1860 has some very nice CCH on the frame, and will accept the carbine stock. The grips are a nicely grained matte finish to the walnut.

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 12:20 AM
what is the end play on that gun anyways, never even asked ya that ?
How sloppy is your cylinder to forcing cone ?

Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 12:39 AM
what is the end play on that gun anyways, never even asked ya that ?
How sloppy is your cylinder to forcing cone ?

Jaeger
Using my calipers... the end play appears to be approx. .004" with the hammer cocked. I'll go snag up my feeler gauges to see what the gap is between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Yup.. .004" feeler gauge will go in, the .005" feeler gauge will not go in between the forcing cone and the cylinder's face.

Smokin_Gun
August 30, 2009, 01:31 AM
Any special tools needed to make a repair? Where would a feller turn for an exploded view of the gun?

If you have any feeler guage stock you can make a hand spring very easily.
Springs are about .018" or so ... take an industrial razor blade (boxcutter type) Tap the old spring out of the squeezed crimp from the hand. Trim width first and cut to length...put a curve in the end to slide freely in the hand/spring channel.
It may take a couple trys...just use two small pliers to make bends, and try not to bend the spring at the hand.
:cool:

Hellgate
August 30, 2009, 02:42 AM
Does the bolt come up through the frame with the cylinder removed? I've seen burrs in the frame cutout cause the bolt to hang up. I've also seen burrs keep the bolt from dropping back down with the cylinder removed so the gun wouldn't function unless you pushed the bolt down to free it. So, just make sure the bolt is free to move.

I have made a new hand spring from a bobby pin. You just have to find the right size in your wife or daughter's hair clip drawer. They are spring steel and so far, so good for me.

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 10:40 AM
looks to me with the last advice given from the boys , and what I have on PM's and the phone , your well on your way to fixin her now . :D
I am sure with a little patience and a soft touch your going to become a fine pistolsmith in time .

On a side note , I had to chuckle inside when I called you a gunsmith in a post days ago and you downplayed it when we were talking about putting a new bolt spring in for that 60 . You said that is hardly gunsmithing :D .........I knew it wasn't , and generally isn't , just a matter of dropping in a new spring Buckwheat ! But I wasn't about to tell you that till you were on your way to go get the gun yesterday :D ........I bet ya feel different about the spring now , and do consider it gunsmithing dont ya :neener: :D ...Just like the hand spring I told ya to check yesterday too , they take a little fiddlin :D
But with all that said , I can say Grasshopper does pay attention well :D
I do still want you to Mic that bolt/trigger spring to make sure they sent you one in close to specs . :)

Das Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 12:00 PM
LOL Yup... I had NO idea that a Trigger Bolt spring could/would need fitting. I was under the impression that it just dropped in and you resumed play. Otay... add that piece to what needs fitting. Kewl... my first 'smithing lesson learned.

Otay... lemme get some coffee in me and I'll dismantle to the trigger bolt spring and get to measuring. For the sake of perspective, I'll reference a measurement as "fore/aft", "width", "height" in relation to how the piece fits into the gun and whether it's measurement is along the "fore/aft" (muzzle to grip), "Width" (left side/right side of gun) and "Height" (grip trigger guard to hammer)... unless there's other terminology guidlines I need to follow... related to 'smith-speak.

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 01:16 PM
For the sake of trying to clearly communicate my work... I'll define the long/smoothly arc'd half of the spring to be the "Trigger" side, which lays on the left side of the revolver's frame (oriented in it's level/firing position). The "Bolt" side has the compound curves along the main arc and lays on the right side of the frame.

Measurements:

Spring metal thickness .031
Overall fore/aft length of Trigger half of spring 1.2655
Overall fore/aft length of Bolt half of spring 1.580
Overall width of entire spring .328
Width of trigger half of spring .122
Width of bolt half of spring .112
Height of trigger half of spring's arc .144
Height of bolt half of spring's arc .144
Height of the bolt's arc on the tip of the compound curve .080
Fore/aft length of bolt's arc compound curved tip .350
Fore/aft measurement from outter most part of the spring heel to the union of the two halves is .360 (If deducting this length from the overall of each halve's length is of importance)

Did I miss sumpin' ?

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 01:17 PM
Howdee ,
Well , don't get me wrong , sometiems they indeed do just drop in , and should be very close , but this is Italy were talking , the Land Of Wine and Vacations :D ......Were also talking Pietta not Berretta qualtiy here or QC of Berretta .
Main measurement you need that I am wondering about is the long leg of the spring , don't care about much else , to start with . GO ahead and do the short leg too . :D How much it's bent is irrelevnat at this point , etc , etc ...
You can use a piece of flat bar stock or metal ruler to lay on the round end of spring to pull your measurements from with you calipers , or Mic to be straight to the legs . Obviosuly the long elg is easy to emasure , but carefull not to cock your mic or calipers for the little leg .

Will be off and on today here , but with allthe genious's here you shoudl be able to runthsi guns oon I hope unelss you need more parts or to fab a new Hand Spring, which I am almost positive you will :D

Jaeger

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 01:19 PM
you didn't miss anything , your just anal retentive or a butt-hole, you choose :neener:

I gotta cook Eggs benedict up right now for the msises and I , then will be back :D

jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 01:33 PM
For the sake of trying to clearly communicate my work... I'll define the long/smoothly arc'd half of the spring to be the "Trigger" side, which lays on the left side of the revolver's frame (oriented in it's level/firing position). The "Bolt" side has the compound curves along the main arc and lays on the right side of the frame.

Measurements in BOLD are for the OLD/broken spring

Spring metal thickness .031 .032
Overall fore/aft length of Trigger half of spring 1.2655
Overall fore/aft length of Bolt half of spring 1.580 1.181
Overall width of entire spring .328 .328
Width of trigger half of spring .122
Width of bolt half of spring .112 .1151
Height of trigger half of spring's arc .144
Height of bolt half of spring's arc .144 .0875
Height of the bolt's arc on the tip of the compound curve .080 .066
Fore/aft length of bolt's arc compound curved tip .350 .350
Fore/aft measurement from outter most part of the spring heel to the union of the two halves is .360 (If deducting this length from the overall of each halve's length is of importance) .369

Did I miss sumpin' ?

Missing measurements are due to the trigger half missing.

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 01:39 PM
you didn't miss anything , your just anal retentive or a butt-hole, you choose :neener:

I gotta cook Eggs benedict up right now for the msises and I , then will be back :D

jaeger
Kewl... not knowing what's important to the diagnostics... figured I'd give ya as much as I can and let ya filter out the non-important shtuffs.

More coffee's in order 'bout now. And, gonna make me a bowl of grits... yes, with butter/pepper... NO brown sugar (like I've seen some do).

BTW... Jason was kind enough to send me TWO trigger/bolt springs... so, I have a back-up if I screw this thing up. :D

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 02:29 PM
workable , your certaintly not too long on the trigger leg , either one , bolt leg doesn't matter on length . Your fine , it should work with that as is .
Check the Hand spring like I mentioned , condition etc .
Report back .
:D

jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 03:15 PM
workable , your certaintly not too long on the trigger leg , either one , bolt leg doesn't matter on length . Your fine , it should work with that as is .
Check the Hand spring like I mentioned , condition etc .
Report back .
:D

jaeger

Over all condition of the hand and hand spring description:

with the pivot rod that the hammer marries into on the left side as you look at the hand... the hand's upper edge (where it makes contact with the rear of the cylinder) is not square with the sides of the hand. The left side is taller than the right side. The left side measures .967 and the right side .959. The hand's width is .113 where it contacts the rear of the cylinder. The hand spring is not inline (vertically) with the hand, but, rather overhangs the left side of the hand. The hand's width, plus the amount of overhang measures a total of .147. The shape of the hand spring's tip is not square, nor is it round, it's more of a lopsided cone shape... the peak is right of center in relation to the centerline vertically. The overall height of the hand spring's tip to the base of the hand is 1.095. The hand spring protrudes higher than the hand.

The wear on the face of the hand (nearest you as you look at it in the same orientation described above) indicates more wear on the right side of the hand. Rotating the top towards you to allow you to see the TOP of the hand... the top of the hand is NOT a right angled rectangle... the L/R corner is a greater than 90 degree angle... the U/R corner appears to be a less than 90 degree angle. The front/back measurement of the left side of the face is .197 and the measurement of the right side is .191. The hand spring's width is .106

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 03:56 PM
I must've gotten something installed just a little "off" when I took it apart to clean it a couple of months ago. While doing the hand spring measurements... I took it completely apart and did a reassembly of each part... checking how it was laying/working. It went together beautifully and upon complete reassembly of the gun... it's timing is spot on again... the bolt is working correctly and locks the cylinder the way it's supposed to in all directions of orienting the barrel. The trigger pull's feel has improved, although still creeps a tad.

All nipples have been pulled and checked for being clean and threading condition. The nipples turn freely, then firm up a bit, and then free up again as they seat snug.

So... once again... the problem was the loose nut behind the screwdriver ! :banghead: My buddy Andy has a correctly working 1860 once again. Thanks guys... appreciate the help... and Jaegermeister... sorry to've wasted yer time to help me establish spec measurements. Second gunsmithing lesson learned... double check your assembly work before deciding you have a problem. :banghead: It sucks to be ign'rnt. :D Little by little... I'm workin' on changin' that though.

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 06:15 PM
What , you think your the first to put something back together wrong , HA ! :D
I am layin money you had a burr or some crapola hanging up the Cylinder stop like HellGate said , or the hand was cluttered up , or both .
You do realize you as the Gunsmith of your friends gun is entitled to shoot it for function without permission right :D ......and anytime in the future your at the range together . :D ..thats how that works :D
And for waisting my time , I get to shoot it too :neener:
Actually it wasn't any waist of time , I enjoyed every minute of it , all five minutes of actual work measuring my known perfect pieces :D ......Pay was crap though :D
Alrighty then , another 1860 out on the fireing line of life doin what its been doin for 150 years . :D

Das Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 07:05 PM
Does the bolt come up through the frame with the cylinder removed? I've seen burrs in the frame cutout cause the bolt to hang up. I've also seen burrs keep the bolt from dropping back down with the cylinder removed so the gun wouldn't function unless you pushed the bolt down to free it. So, just make sure the bolt is free to move.

I have made a new hand spring from a bobby pin. You just have to find the right size in your wife or daughter's hair clip drawer. They are spring steel and so far, so good for me.
Sorry Hellgate... missed your post. I think that what was going on with the bolt was that it just needed a little side nudge to seat on the pin/screw in it's correct position. Once I pulled the trigger, hammer, hand off and did a little tinkering... everything just laid back in the way it should. No burr appears to be present. Thank you.

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 07:14 PM
well at least it's runnin :D

Jaeger :D

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 07:16 PM
What , you think your the first to put something back together wrong , HA ! :D
I am layin money you had a burr or some crapola hanging up the Cylinder stop like HellGate said , or the hand was cluttered up , or both .
You do realize you as the Gunsmith of your friends gun is entitled to shoot it for function without permission right :D ......and anytime in the future your at the range together . :D ..thats how that works :D
And for waisting my time , I get to shoot it too :neener:
Actually it wasn't any waist of time , I enjoyed every minute of it , all five minutes of actual work measuring my known perfect pieces :D ......Pay was crap though :D
Alrighty then , another 1860 out on the fireing line of life doin what its been doin for 150 years . :D

Das Jaeger
My buddy (Andy) will be pleased to see his 1860 coming back home with a thorough cleaning done on it. I tore it all down again and cleaned everything up, removing all the original gun oil. Pulled the nipples and cleaned things well. No more gunk in/around the nipples. I also burnished some metal polish inside the barrel/cylinder bore/chambers with a cleaning jag and patches. All the blued metal polished up with metal polish too. The base pin got a film of moly fortified synthetic grease, the rest got a film of synthetic gun oil. It really looks sharp now after the polishing up. It's amazing how much "brown" surface crud comes off the blued metal and gets a nice gleem to it when buffed off with a soft cotton cloth afterwards !!

Here's Andy and I after we finished up making a pair of show chaps for "Junior Miss Rodeo Washington". This'll be him getting a little bit of pay-back for his help with them.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/Leather/Chaps/AllDone-1.jpg

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 07:26 PM
Leather , a fun place to shop :)
Nice Chapps man ! For a girl , do they fit , hee hee hee :neener:

Hey buddy , I always take my new revolvers out for a spin with the Aeronautical metal pollish , like Mothers , to get rid of the rusting in the blueing process they use , especialy Italian blueing , the salts and rust are heavy on their process and nobody takes it out in the factory either . It is amazing what comes off on your patches and rags with a slight buffing with the stuff . And of course as you know , don't use it on CCH and don't rub too hard on the blueing either . :D ....But what a difference it makes in keeping these guns clean and smooth . It keeps all the fouling down to a minumum too , just like a clean Jet , smooth man smooth . Fouling has a much harder time clinging to pollished metal .

I bet that 1860 runs smooth too now with it oiled and pollished and greased huh ? Oh yeh :D That tis the only way to keep them :D ...Dont rely on Wonder-Lube or andy other Yellow gunk to operate those guns as well as moly grease , it aint gonna happen , ever . :D

It's a happy day in Colt-Ville !

Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 08:51 PM
Yup... Tandy Leather is a good place... and Andy's good with the leather working tools and relates the skills to use them well also. He's good people.

The chaps turned out great. That was one happy 14yr old.

Agreed... I couldn't believe the nasties comin' off the blueing the first time I worked a gun over with it. It certainly does make a big difference. I generally reach for Flitz, or Peek (probably identical formulas) when I'm gettin' after 'em.

LOL I did NOT touch the CCH on his 1860 with the polish... besides... the CCH is just gorgeous on this gun. I'm tempted to keep this one and get him a new one and tell him just how bad his gun got hacked up. (Kidding). :D

I don't think this poor thing had EVER been torn down and had the innerds cleaned and oiled !!! I opted for synthetic oil only the the internals. The surfaces probably need honing before it sees any moly. All that fouling was pretty rough on things

One question... is pulling the nipples adequate to be able to just dry fire the gun while watchin' tube? I'm not wanting to mash the nipples while working in the action's internals on my new ones.

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 09:10 PM
Don't do it , tis really hard on the sear and hammer and everything else dry firing without nipples . Don't dry fire it with nipples either . Suck it up and fire it with caps on , or thumb the hammer when you are letting go of the trigger . Just work the action a few hundred times in front of the TV and you'll be good to go man . Better yet, just bust open a tin of caps and blow them all . They are way cheap and in ample supply here at least .

By the way , I always pollish every single piece of metal inthe innards, surfaces of the side of the frame isnide, the hand, bolt, everyhtign with metal pollish to smooth it all out . Just with Pollish , don't be roundin stuff out with sand paper and such :banghead: It will amaze you how sweet they function when they get pollished out , especaily Ubertis .
Geta q-tip adn put pollish on it to rub up and down onthe hand slot up inthe frame, that is the leading area it drags . Pollish it out and the hand will move the way it does on a real COLT Model P they make now , smoooooooth .
Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 09:39 PM
Kewl... glad I decided to inquire first. I had a hunch that dry firing wasn't a good thing... just wasn't sure about with the nipples removed. Working the action while keeping thumb on the hammer is how I've been doing it so far.

Gotcha... wasn't sure how to correctly polish inside... figured I'd get some coaching on it before I messed around inside with only ignorance being my guide. :D Grassy Ass Ameeeego.

'Dog-gone

Das Jaeger
August 30, 2009, 09:46 PM
Amigo :D
You can use your trusty moto-tool to pollish too if you sooooo desire , but be carefull not to heat stuff up too much or round stuff off , they don't like rounded things in them , sharp and smooth is what they crave . :D

das Jaeger

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 10:15 PM
Gotchas !!! That'll be a project all it's own some evening after work. :cool:

rocky branch
August 31, 2009, 12:03 AM
Easiest is to buy the hand and spring assembly.
You will have to fit the hand to time the cylinder.
Start out making it the same as the old one.
These vary in length.
Buy an extra and a trigger spring or two.
Springs can be problematical on these repros-mebbe same-same originals.
Dunno. I like them a bunch.

BHP FAN
August 31, 2009, 11:15 AM
Wolff has trigger/bolt springs for the 1873 Colt that also fit the repro 1851's,1860's and with a little work the Remmies as well.They are round 'music wire' springs instead of flat springs,and they last for everrrr...

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