Check Out This Map!


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fish2xs
October 21, 2003, 10:49 AM
http://www.fsguns.com/righttocarry.html

How accurate is this map? In 1986 I was a young pup of 22 years,
but I don't recall Texas or Nevada being "No-issue" back then...?

Maybe I don't understand what no-issue means. By the looks of
this map, one would believe that in all places except CA, NY/NJ/MA
and a few places in the midwest, the rights of gun owners have
made tremendous gains in the past 17 years.

Is that accurate? More importantly, WAS IT THAT BAD IN 1986?

Old timers, please clue me in. Here in MA it seems that things
have gotten worse, not better....

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jdege
October 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
If Texas wasn't no-issue in 1991, then every news report of the Luby's shooting was wrong.

Recognize that the categorization can be complicated. Alabama and Connecticut have discretionary laws, but are shall-issue in practice. Hawaii has discretionary laws, but is no-issue in practice.

And in many of the states that are no-issue, open carry is theoretically legal. But while in some open-carry states, open carry is no problem, in other "open-carry" states (Ohio and Wisconsin, for example), open carry will get you arrested.

The info I used in making that map came from the NRA's website, confirmed by a Cramer and Kopel's paper on shall-issue laws. If someone can point me to more correct information, I will update the map.

TarpleyG
October 21, 2003, 11:09 AM
TX didn't start issuing 'til '94 IIRC.

GT

fish2xs
October 21, 2003, 11:17 AM
jdege

>> The info I used in making that map came from the NRA's website, confirmed by a Cramer and Kopel's paper on shall-issue laws.

Cool! The author...

Since you've studied this, how would you say things generally
are progressing for gun owners since 87? In MA it is decidedly
worse, but overall.....?

tiberius
October 21, 2003, 11:22 AM
Texas not only had a "no issue" policy for concealed handguns, but open carry of hand guns was completely illegal prior to 1996. There were "defenses to prosecution" provided for "sporting purposes" and "travel" but that's it. Long guns, of course, could (and still can) be carried anywhere without restriction (aside for causing a public distrubance of course).

Baba Louie
October 21, 2003, 11:28 AM
Nevada only started issuing after the 94 legislaters made it a "Shall Issue" state. Until then you had to own a Casino or be Elvis or be a friend of a Sheriff/Governor, etc to carry with a license, unless you had "connections".

95 was the beginning of the NV shall issue era.

Lotsa "Registered Gun Owners" nowadays, neh? For Better or Worse.

Adios

Skunkabilly
October 21, 2003, 11:33 AM
I find it ironic that California has been may issue longer than most of the states that are now shall-issue. Goes to show that 'progressive' isn't.

WhoKnowsWho
October 21, 2003, 12:52 PM
That website also has a listing of what can't be sold in Mass... I thought California was bad...

rock jock
October 21, 2003, 12:56 PM
Shall-issue in Texas began Jan. 1, 1996. I began carrying in April of that year.

tiberius
October 21, 2003, 01:01 PM
Personally I think "May issue" is WORSE than "No issue" because it is completely discriminatory. Places like CA and NY generally only issue permits to the rich and/or connected while they make the rest of us "prove a need" to some half educated sherriff who gets to decide on any whim what our rights may be.

Mike Irwin
October 21, 2003, 01:03 PM
The big kick for CCW in Texas came with the Luby's cafeteria massacre.

I was sitting on an exercise bike at Bally's in Bethesda, Maryland, when Dan Rather popped on and announced the incident, calling the Glock the "preferred handgun of drug dealers and terrorists..."

MrAcheson
October 21, 2003, 01:16 PM
Some may-issue states are practically no issue like Caulifornia :D and Maryland. Or worse elite-issue for only the landed gentry and members of the ruling party... :banghead:

Delaware is may-issue but shall-issue in practice. We are also have a law forcing reciprocity with any state who recognizes our permits.

moa
October 21, 2003, 01:35 PM
Has not the count of "shall issue" States gone up since the 2003 map was created? I thought it was 35 or 36 States at the present.

jrhead75
October 21, 2003, 01:50 PM
The map only goes back to '86, and shows Washington as one of the few shall issue states then...but it wasn't back in the 70s, it was discretionary. So we've made some progress up here in the top left corner too. Now for Class III...

TonyB
October 21, 2003, 03:09 PM
In NY it depends on what county you're in......forget NYC.....but here in upstate,I and alot of my friends have a permit w/ no restrictions.....

jdege
October 21, 2003, 03:18 PM
Washington state became shall-issue, as I understand it, in 1961.

As for the map, I've had some quibbles about the status of some states before they adopted shall-issue. Was Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc., may-issue or no-issue in 1986?

If anyone has better info, let me know.

As for the latest changes, New Mexico, Colorado, Minnesota, and Missouri (pending their lawsuit) have become shall-issue so far this year, and Alaska has adopted Vermont-carry.

All of these changes are reflected in the map.

voilsb
October 21, 2003, 03:47 PM
So, on the topic, when did the first laws *restricting* concealed carry get enacted? 1934? 1963? 1968?

Anyone know a good place to look for that sort of thing? I know that once upon a time, there were no laws about concealed carry, so all states were implicitly like Vermont. Then they started saying it's illegal. Then they started saying it's legal again, but with xyz restrictions. Any idea how that timeline looks?

tiberius
October 21, 2003, 03:54 PM
In NY it depends on what county you're in......forget NYC.....but here in upstate,I and alot of my friends have a permit w/ no restrictions.....

No restrictions? So is your permit good in NYC or can municipal governments overide the state issued license?

jdege
October 21, 2003, 04:07 PM
The first gun control laws in the US were passed, AUI, back in the decades before the Civil War, aimed at free blacks.

The second set were passed in the reconstruction era, and were race-neutral in language, but not in enforcement.

The third set came in the 1930s. The "Uniform Firearms Act" was state-level legislation intended to accompany the National Firearms act of 1934, and it was this that established the discretionary permitting system. (New York's Sullivan law was the early model for these.)

J Miller
October 21, 2003, 04:10 PM
jdege,

Very interesting map. Wife and I were trying to study the progression of things and couldn't get our eyes focused fast enough.
Is there a way to stop this map from updating so we can study it?

Mike Irwin
October 21, 2003, 04:19 PM
Pennsylvania was definitely may issue in 1986.

My parents both got their permits to carry in, I believe, 1985. I got mine in 1987.

Wedge
October 21, 2003, 04:43 PM
No NY state permits are good in NYC.

You don't have to be rich or connected to get a carry permit in New York state. You just have to be determined and willing to go through all the red tape associated with it. The procedure to get a permit in NY is not that much more of a PITA than it is in a lot of states. Individual counties can regulate things to a degree and rumors abound as to what the rules are.

I wish we were shall issue in NY but until then, I am happy that I at least took the time and effort to get my current permit.

El Tejon
October 21, 2003, 04:56 PM
fish, for me in '86 carrying was not a problem. Not a problem now either.

We have made tremendous gains. However, we have a long way to go. :)

jrhead75
October 21, 2003, 05:10 PM
Washington state became shall-issue, as I understand it, in 1961. Could be, I got here in 76, and when I first applied in 78, I had to go interview with the sheriff, and tell him why I wanted one. Either I misinterpreted, or the sheriff was jerking me around, because he gave me a pretty good third degree.

One thing that has changed, is the fact that municipalities can no longer supercede state law with tougher carry restrictions.

jdege
October 21, 2003, 05:40 PM
http://www.claytoncramer.com/shall-issue.html
October 17, 1994
"Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws
By Clayton E. Cramer & David B. Kopel


Washington State adopted the Uniform Pistol & Revolver Act in 1935. In 1961, Washington State departed from the discretionary permit system, and required that if the applicant for a concealed weapon permit was allowed to possess a handgun under Washington law, the permit had to be issued. At first glance, Washington's new policy appears quite remarkable, but a little reflection on the nature of concealed weapons suggests the state's decision reflected a realistic understanding of handgun ownership.

jrhead75
October 21, 2003, 05:58 PM
Well there ya go...

I stand corrected. :uhoh:

Andrew Rothman
October 21, 2003, 06:17 PM
Wife and I were trying to study the progression of things and couldn't get our eyes focused fast enough.
Is there a way to stop this map from updating so we can study it?

Here are the first 11 years, one by one.

Andrew Rothman
October 21, 2003, 06:20 PM
Here are the rest of the years, plus slower animations:

jdege
October 21, 2003, 06:52 PM
I'd like to maintain control of these maps, to minimize out-of-date copies when I update them or make corrections.

I've had people ask for the individual maps before - I'll edit the page, so that the individual maps are recoverable.

BluesBear
October 21, 2003, 11:34 PM
jdege
As for the map, I've had some quibbles about the status of some states before they adopted shall-issue. Was Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc., may-issue or no-issue in 1986?
Kentucky was an No Issue in 1986. Actually the law back then could be construed as to disallow concealed carry in your own home or business.
The only exceptions to Carrying Concealed a Deadly Weapon were Peace Officers and Mail Carriers while actually delivering the mail.

Open cary was technically legal, but in many areas you'd get busted for Disorderly Conduct. DisCon in Kentucky was any action, in public, that could cause "affront and alarm".

An interesting sidenote to KY CCDW was that "a firearm is not deemed concealed on or about the person under this statue if said firearm is in the glove compartment of a motor vechicle provided that such compartment was installed by the manufacturer at the time of manufacture, whether said compartment is locked, unlocked or has a locking mechanism."
And guns in gunracks in the window of a vehicle were OK as well.

Gray Peterson
October 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
Could be, I got here in 76, and when I first applied in 78, I had to go interview with the sheriff, and tell him why I wanted one. Either I misinterpreted, or the sheriff was jerking me around, because he gave me a pretty good third degree.

The law was a bit different back in 1978. However, the law was shall-issue. I do not believe the law allowed the form of interview, but I bet if a sheriff were to try to do that, we'd here about it here today, someone would report it, and lawsuits would get filed.

The CPL law was amended a few times back in the 1980's do to some unjust and unfair rulings by the courts. I'd actually have to go to Vancouver, WA and do some legal research.

45King
October 22, 2003, 07:38 AM
My memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember that Georgia went to "shall issue" in 1976.
Shall issue legislation was introduced in SC in '94, but I can't remember if it passed then or the next year.

jdege
October 22, 2003, 10:38 AM
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Cramer/shall-issue.html#c9


Georgia's concealed weapon permit law before 1989 was somewhat ambiguous. While one part of the concealed weapon statute states, "The judge of the probate court of each county may...issue a license..." [48] [emphasis added], a later portion specifies:

"Not later than 60 days after the date of the application the judge of the probate court shall issue the applicant a license to carry any pistol or revolver if no facts establishing ineligibility have been reported and if the judge determines the applicant has met all the qualifications, is of good moral character, and has complied with all the requirements contained herein. [49] [emphasis added] "

Other portions of the statute specify that licenses shall not be issued to anyone under 21, [50] a fugitive from justice, or anyone awaiting court proceedings for a felony or "forcible misdemeanor." [51] Also disqualified is anyone placed under supervision by a court within the last ten years for a "forcible felony," or the last five years for a "forcible misdemeanor or a nonforcible felony," [52] or hospitalized for alcohol or drug treatment in the last five years. [53] Anyone convicted of any sort of manufacturing, distribution, or possession of a controlled substance is likewise ineligible. [54] The maximum fee for processing was set at $30. [55]

But was the issuance of a permit discretionary or not? The use of "may" in one place suggested that it was discretionary. Yet the language "shall issue" seems non-discretionary. The Georgia Attorney General resolved the question in 1989, when he issued an opinion holding that the judge, "has no discretion to exercise, but must issue permit unless provided with information indicating disqualification of applicant." [56]

Mike Irwin
October 22, 2003, 12:54 PM
I e-mailed them about Pennsylvania, and they said that they've inserted a footnote to the map indicating that it was a may-issue state prior to being shall issue in the 1980s.

jdege
October 22, 2003, 02:17 PM
If anyone would care to validate my data...

First field is the state abbreviation. Following are year of change and what it was changed to:

U = unrestricted
S = shall-issue
M = may-issue
N = no-issue

I'd really love to be able to track this back to 1900 or earlier, and show the adoption of the may-issue laws, back in the 1920's and 1930's, but I have data for only a handful of states.


AK 2003:U 1994:S 0000:N
AL 0000:S
AR 1995:S 0000:N
AZ 1994:S 0000:N
CA 0000:M
CO 2003:S 0000:M
CT 0000:S
DE 0000:M
FL 1987:S 0000:M
GA 1989:S 1975:M 0000:N
HI 0000:M
IA 0000:M
ID 1990:S 0000:N
IL 0000:N
IN 0000:S
KS 0000:N
KY 1996:S 0000:N
LA 1996:S 0000:M
MA 0000:M
MD 0000:M
ME 0000:S
MI 2001:S 0000:M
MN 2003:S 1975:M 0000:U
MO 2003:S 0000:N
MS 1990:S 0000:N
MT 1991:S 0000:M
NC 1995:S 0000:N
ND 0000:S
NE 0000:N
NH 0000:S
NJ 0000:M
NM 2003:S 0000:N
NV 1995:S 0000:M
NY 0000:M
OH 0000:N
OK 1995:S 0000:N
OR 1989:S 0000:N
PA 1989:S 0000:N
RI 0000:M
SC 1996:S 0000:M
SD 0000:S
TN 1994:S 0000:N
TX 1995:S 0000:N
UT 1995:S 0000:M
VA 1995:S 0000:M
VT 0000:U
WA 1961:S 0000:M
WI 0000:N
WV 1989:S 0000:N
WY 1994:S 0000:M

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