[Stormshotty]

I just got finished watching The Outlaw Josie Wales and Clint Eastwood finish off bad guy after bad guy with his revolvers. And I got to thinking how many of the gun antics in movies are myths (cough, Wanted) and some might actually happen. How accurate are handguns? If you were good enough, could you really take down moving targets while on the run yourself? Are there people good enough to hit a target (say the size of a quarter) whenever they wanted without aiming down the sights or going into a stance? I'm new to the whole target shooting crowd, so I'd like to hear your opinions of just how accurate people can be (point shooting or moving while shooting anyways).

[NELSONs02]

Lol. You should probably get out and do some shooting. You'll quickly realize its nothing like the movies.

[Stormshotty]

I've done a bit of target shooting and I'm not very good yet. Believe me, I know how inaccurate people can be. But I want to know if there are trained people out there who have been able to do some of things you see in the movies.

[SharpsDressedMan]

With a scope mounted, and some practice shots getting the elevation adjusted into the scope, I made a 159 yard shot (verified with a laser rangefinder) on a groundhog with a tuned 1911 in 9mm Luger. With the same gun, I made a WINESSED 89 pace shot with open sights on a groundhog. That is all I would ask of ANY handgun.

[rcmodel]

Are there people good enough to hit a target (say the size of a quarter)
There are a few people who could.

The late Bill Jordan could hit tiny saccharin tablets & larger aspirin tablets from the draw several feet away.

Jerry Miculek, Bob Munden, and a select few other professional & exhibition shooters would not have any trouble with quarters.

Everyone else better use the sights if they want to hit quarters.

Moving while hitting is part of several action pistol match disciplines.
But they use the sights while moving. And they shoot at man-size targets.

A very large percentage of the movie gunmanship is BS.
Say 99.99%!

None of the real old-time gunfighters were anywhere near as fast or accurate as todays best using todays equipment.

rc

[Jim Watson]

The ten ring on an NRA target is 3.39" in diameter. A Master class shooter will hit it most of the time at 50 yards slowfire and 25 yards timed and rapid fire. He isn't shooting fast but he is standing on his hind legs and holding the pistol in one hand.

[Bill B.]

How accurate are handguns?

Quality handguns are only limited by the user. Some users are just better than others!

[jimmyraythomason]

Bill B. nailed it. Exhibition shooters are that good because they did what it takes to get that good. Practice,Practice, Practice!

[searcher451]

You want accuracy? You want speed to go along with the accuracy? Watch this and be amazed, which I am every time I spend the four minutes:

http://videos.komando.com/2009/01/06/fastest-shot-in-the-world/

[dullh]

Any quality handgun is more accurate than the person holding and shooting it. To get real good with a handgun requires lots of practice, but it's the rare shooter who at all times can shoot as accurately as his handgun can.

[littlelefty]

All of my handguns are extremely accurate. It's me that sucks:D

"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"

[DRYHUMOR]

When I use a rest, my group shrinks by half or so. So that tells me the gun is pretty damn accurate, now, if I could just catch up to it...

[Drail]

Most handguns are capable of far more accuracy than a human being can deliver. I used to use Ransom Rests quite a bit at one shop I worked at. Then I saw people who could print a tighter group than the Ransom Rest. The are people living and dead that have done things with a handgun you would not believe possible even when you stand behind them and watch them do it. Jerry Miculek and Rob Leatham are two I have personally watched amaze people.

[Mags]

Not very without sights.

[BigGuy52]

One movie that comes to my mind about the BS in movies, is Winchester '73. It starred Jimi Stewart. In one scene he supposedly uses his lever action rifle to shoot a hole through a coin flipped into the air.
I saw a picture of that particular moment being filmed, Stewart is standing on platforms, to make him look taller, while the real sharpshooter stood next to him and really did do the shot.
The article I think was in a American Rifleman article, but I can't find the correct magazine.

[1858rem]

while the real sharpshooter stood next to him and really did do the shot.

i always wonder how the exhibition shooters time it to hit flat side and not while the coin is horizontal and the boolit go right by..

[Raptorq7r13]

Not very without sights.

I disagree. While I have very little experience it myself I have had a chance to witness some fine point shooters. Point shooting is a technique based on the fact that you can point to an object, without looking down your finger, and be pretty much lined up with it. It's very practical for quickly firing from a carry position, and on the move. It's based around shorter range, but the guy who are really good at it can do well at 10-15 yards.

[VegasOPM]

The article I think was in a American Rifleman article, but I can't find the correct magazine.

Herb Parsons was the guy's name. He is a legend in exhibition shooting. He was also the first person to shoot 7 hand thrown clays with a shotgun before they hit the ground- using a Winchester Model 12.

[jad0110]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy52
The article I think was in a American Rifleman article, but I can't find the correct magazine.

Herb Parsons was the guy's name. He is a legend in exhibition shooting. He was also the first person to shoot 7 hand thrown clays with a shotgun before they hit the ground- using a Winchester Model 12.

Aka, "The Showman Shooter." The man died long before I was born, but he is one of the greatest exhibition shooters who ever lived. He was able to perform his feats because of A) natural God given talent and B) Practice, Practice and more Practice. And for good measure, more practice!

As for shooting the 7 hand thrown clays with a shotgun, I believe Tom Knapp recently bested that record by shooting 8 clays with a pump shotgun before hitting the ground. http://www.tomknapp.net/about/worldRecords.php

On The History Channel's Sharpshooters, he was using a 22 rifle to shoot aspirin tablets thrown in the air and in one example, through the hole of a washer also tossed in the air. Quite impressive. I'd be happy to hit the aspirin, stationary, from a yard or two :p .

So the some of the feats you see in the movies may be possible, in reality only about .0001% of the population can do them.

I always get a kick out of seeing these spectacular shots in the movies, made by an actor with absolutely horrible shooting technique. The severe trigger jerking by Mel Gibson in the Lethal Weapon films comes to mind.

[rondog]

Eastwood's old cowboy movies were most always with cap and ball revolvers too, which seemed to hold about 15 shots apiece and never jammed up on split caps. My 1851 Navy clone LOVES to jam up on spent caps, s.o.b. lives for it, I swear.

The BG's always seemed to just drop dead too. I gotta wonder just how deadly cap and balls really were. I know they'd kill, but I'd bet there were a lot more wounded than dead. Probably more deaths from bleeding out or infections than DRT hits.

[ScareyH22A]

Even an average Joe such as myself, with a little bit of practice, can shoot paper plate sized targets at a 100yds. I dunno about shooting through a washer flipped up in the air tho. That was just bonkers. Who was that guy?

[blikseme300]

How do you prove the bullet went through the hole in the washer?

[Chuck24]

Seems like he put a piece of tape over the hole and shot the tape out. I watched that show and it was amazing what they could do.

[redneck2]

I have a friend that shot three running coyotes with four shots with a DA .44 mag. Longest shot was just over 60 yards. He routinely hits deer at 80 yards or more with iron sights.

When I worked at the gun shop, we had a competition shooter that would put ten 9mm's rapid fire (maybe one shot per second) thru one hole at 10 yards.

Most guys with pistols are good at turning money into noise. You need a gun that has a good trigger and lots of GOOD practice. Just because they are lousy shots, they think everyone else is.

I've seen guys that amazing. I've seen guys that couldn't hit a barn from the inside

[jad0110]

Hmmmm????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you prove the bullet went through the hole in the washer?

High speed camera slowed down to a few frames per second ... that's how they showed it on Sharpshooters (a fantastic show, I might add).

[gwnorth]

How do you prove the bullet went through the hole in the washer?

In one movie they put a postage stamp over a washer to show the shot went through. In the History Channel episode, they went modern and caught the shot on high speed video - slowed down you could clearly see the .22 round going through the hole (they did not say how many takes it took to both make the shot, and catch in the high speed camera's field of view :) )

[gwnorth]

I just got finished watching The Outlaw Josie Wales and Clint Eastwood finish off bad guy after bad guy with his revolvers. And I got to thinking how many of the gun antics in movies are myths (cough, Wanted) and some might actually happen. How accurate are handguns? If you were good enough, could you really take down moving targets while on the run yourself? Are there people good enough to hit a target (say the size of a quarter) whenever they wanted without aiming down the sights or going into a stance? I'm new to the whole target shooting crowd, so I'd like to hear your opinions of just how accurate people can be (point shooting or moving while shooting anyways).

Much of the accuracy stuff is at least half believable. There are historical records of amazing shots from horseback on the move and so forth. And the history channel has done a couple of shows now showing that (with enough practice), yes, many of those "unbelievable" shots are really possible.

What I always find amazing in old west movies is how deadly single rounds are, especially black powder ball rounds from smooth bore pistols. You hear on the news of bad guys surviving multiple rounds of of 9mm, .40s&w and so on, yet a single round from a .36 Navy Colt anywhere in the torso seems near instantly fatal! We should all ditch our modern weapons and go back to percussion pistols - those were clearly man killers :D

[tipoc]

Look at it another way how does Kobe Bryant make all those hoops while on the move? 1). natural talent. 2) practice. 3) it's what they do full time which means more and more practice.

Most of us aren't that good. But with the proper gun and load we can get good enough for many normal tasks you'd want to use a handgun for.

tipoc

[CWL]

...a single round from a .36 Navy Colt anywhere in the torso seems near instantly fatal! We should all ditch our modern weapons and go back to percussion pistols - those were clearly man killers

Well, bullet wounds were deadlier back then, but it usually took a while for blood poisoning, infection or peritonitis to take affect.

[MCgunner]

My contender can put 10 rounds into 3" at 200 yards off the bench. I've done it. :D Some are even more accurate than that! I've seen 3/4 MOA .22 hornet contenders.

I should put the scope on my 7mm TCU barrel, match grade handloads. Used to shoot IHMSA with it. I be it'd out shoot my .30-30 barrel with the scope on it.

[GojuBrian]

Most modern 3-5" pistols are plenty acurate within 15yards if you practice enough.

A pistol's accuracy is just not comparable to a rifle. (unless it's a TC or along those lines ofcourse) :)

[JohnKSa]

A good quality off-the-shelf centerfire repeating handgun will usually shoot groups that are 8-12MOA. That's 2" to 3" groups at 25 yards.

Most any decent off-the-shelf centerfire repeating handgun will hold 32MOA groups. (8" @ 25 yds)

If you get an out-of-the box centerfire repeating handgun that will consistently shoot 4MOA (1" @ 25yds) and you paid less than $1K for it you can consider yourself pretty lucky.

That's just the handguns. The ammo & shooter also figure into the equation heavily. If you go to the average shooting range, you'd be convinced that only a very large animal would be in danger from a handgun shooter at 25 yards range, but as in any "sport", the skill level varies considerably.High speed camera slowed down to a few frames per second ... The high-speed footage was to satisfy the curiosity of mere mortals. Tom Knapp knew he'd made the shot before they looked at the tape. Think about that for awhile...

[btg3]

High speed camera slowed down to a few frames per second ...
My Dad used to flip coins in the air and shoot them. Sometimes he'd flip a large washer and could shoot thru the hole. The gun was a Daisy Eagle BB gun, shot from the hip. The BB was slow enough to observe it pass thru the washer if you were properly positioned. My Dad would patiently shoot thru the washer numerous times until I got to where I could see it. Of course, a few of those time he hit the washer instead of the hole. I still have that Daisy Eagle.

[kamagong]

None of the real old-time gunfighters were anywhere near as fast or accurate as todays best using todays equipment.

I wouldn't go that far. Ever hear of Jelly Bryce?
http://www.donrearic.com/twodeadlymen.html

[tipoc]

Below is a pic of a S&W post war M&P snubby which I fired at 25 yards from a sandbag rest and the groups it made with two different brands of commercial ammo. The squares are 3x3". The flyers are mine and not the guns. I've seen other shooters do as well standing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/K%20Frames/MP25yds2.jpg

Below a post war S&W .357 Magnum at 25 yards. The two flyers are mine and not the guns. The box 3x3". Another shooter could do better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/27at252.jpg

Put a scope on a hand gun and the groups shrink considerably. Brace yourself against a tree, car lamp post etc. and accurate shooting is possible.

Folks can learn to shoot on the move as well.

tipoc

[HB]

It takes a lot to get a handgun to shoot like a rifle too. Presumably manufactures believe that handguns are used for 25 yards and under, generally for targets or self defense. If it can hold 4'', its accurate enough.

If you buy a pistol that is intended for longer ranges, they can be comparable to rifle accuracy. Air pistols made for the Olympics shoot the same size groups as air rifles do. Both are shot at 10 meters.

How much accuracy do you need or can you pay for basically becomes the issue. 1911 wadguns can shoot 1''-2'' at 50 yards with enough money and load work, but you don't need that at 20 yards shooting at paper plates :D
I have a feeling that my browning buckmark will outshoot some rifle though :D

HB

[MCgunner]

I strive for accuracy. That's why I've been through several medium frame 4" .357s until I found one, a Taurus 66, that shoots 1" groups at 25 yards with its fav .38s or .357s. It's better than my M19 was, my Security Six by a long shot, and my Rossi 971. The others are all gone, the Taurus is in my collection. You don't like 'em? Cool. You won't want mine, then. :D

I have others, a pair of Blackhawks, 4 5/8" .45 Colt and a 6.5" .357 that will shoot that well. I even have a .45 ACP Ruger P90 that will shoot under 2". Who'd a thunk THAT? My best 1911 didn't get close to that and it's 100 percent reliable with everything I feed it. Amazing.

My search for accurate firearms has taken a while, but 4 moa is not impossible to achieve with a revolver, let alone a single shot pistol. It's a little harder to get that sort of accuracy from an auto, but you can get close. You can get better with stuff like the Smith and Wesson models 41 and 52, but that's sort of cheating, target guns.

A good carry should groups into 4" off the bench at 25 yards. I've read it and I do believe it. If it's more accurate than that, GREAT! LOL But, my snubbies have always bettered that and my Kel Tec P11 slightly betters that. You can get that sort of accuracy in a pocket gun, believe it or not. Your ability to SHOOT it might not be that good, I'm just speaking of the hardware.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49836&d=1167014958

[jimmyraythomason]

Nice shootin' MCG!

[SlamFire1]

I what reads like a "classic movie" gun fight, Wild Bill Hickock shot a man through the heart at 50 yards. Considering his opponent was also armed, and Wild Bill was shooting a cap and ball pistol, that feat is just amazing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickok-Davis_Tutt_shootout

Of course the characters in the movies are so much better :barf:

[Ditchtiger]

I've a 55g drum at 225 yards and can hit it 50% of the time using 38 specials in a Taurus snub-nose ported 357 mag.
6 out of 6 can be done with my 686 and an Annaconda with a little concentration.

[rivraton]

Quote:
...a single round from a .36 Navy Colt anywhere in the torso seems near instantly fatal! We should all ditch our modern weapons and go back to percussion pistols - those were clearly man killers

Quote:
Well, bullet wounds were deadlier back then, but it usually took a while for blood poisoning, infection or peritonitis to take affect.
__________________
Vae Victis

One very important factor you overlook is that cap and ball revolvers fire a "dead soft" ball @ 900+ fps that expands very rapidly and leaves a large exit wound..
a reasonably well placed hit usualy is instantly fatal...

[flipajig]

I do beleve that the guns are more accurat than the shooter. some are made to be more accurat than others. I did see Bob lundan shoot a balloon at 100 yds with a 45 darrenger on inpossible shots. I also beleve that pratice makes perfict thats why im still shooting..

[JohnKSa]

One very important factor you overlook is that cap and ball revolvers fire a "dead soft" ball @ 900+ fps that expands very rapidly and leaves a large exit wound..
a reasonably well placed hit usualy is instantly fatal... Elmer Keith, in Sixguns, made a comment to the effect that cap & ball revolvers seemed to be far more effective on humans than they ought to be.

[Stormshotty]

I've got about 6" groups with my Ruger Mk3 at 15 yards sitting (about 40 rounds a target), still need lots of practice. I can't seem to hit the target at all with my Arcus 98...even the sights are easier.

[tkopp]

I do 4" groups at 100y with my mkII competition and 2x scope when braced on a bag. I'm convinced I can do better with more magnification or new glasses.

[equalizer]

Just trying to help:evil: I've got Dan Wesson) 8"match barrel.
Next a pm7 .45acp an wesson. itcome all the way with custom parts/
Check 'em out:fire:

[Keb]

I did a pair of prairie dogs with a Ruger Mark III 22/45 at 73 yards, then 2 weeks later watched my friend Jimmy shoot my WWII Sauer 38H at an iron pig target (12x18) and hit it on his first and only shot. Of course, when I tried, I missed that 100 yard shot.

[Stormshotty]

One of the problems for me is that as the targets start getting beyond 15-25 yds, the dot I'm aiming for becomes really really small and it's hard to keep it centered on it. Is that where I should get a scope?

[sweet45]

I thought my 1911's were very accurate until I shot my Buckmark 22. Wow! Talk about accurate.

[f4t9r]

I just got finished watching The Outlaw Josie Wales and Clint Eastwood finish off bad guy after bad guy with his revolvers.

I need to see that. I love those two guys. LOL !!!!!

[MrBorland]

Are there people good enough to hit a target (say the size of a quarter) whenever they wanted without aiming down the sights or going into a stance? I'm new to the whole target shooting crowd, so I'd like to hear your opinions of just how accurate people can be

In his book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, the legendary Ed McGivern felt strongly enough that people have enough inherent ability that he felt he ought to (...no kidding here...page 460...check it out) detail the right and wrong way to hold a silver dollar-sized target in your fingers or on your head.

For the rest of us, though, to get an idea of how good is good, and how good is Hollywood, it'd be worthwhile to look at bullseye shooters. The 25 yard slow fire 10-ring is 1.51" in diameter, and given that Master class bullseye shooters score 95% or better, it stands to reason that it would take a Master to consistently shoot approximately 2" 25 yard groups with a highly-tuned .45. That's twice the size of a quarter, so the same Master could hit a quarter consistently at 12.5 yards during slow fire. Hitting that same quarter on demand at any distance quickly or while point shooting or moving or with an old cowboy gun would be an extraordinary feat, indeed. That being said, Tom Knapp shot a .22LR through a washer thrown in the air, so extraordinary feats are possible.

[1858rem]

MrBorland, is there a july handgun match? the may one is stickied but i dont see july?

[Big Z]

Never met a quality built pistol that was not a better shot than me.
I made a lot of change with a 45/1911 at 300 yards on a range in Silverado Calif. in Orange County. I could keep 5 out of 7 on a pie plate at that range.
It is actually very easy once you know how much drop to compensate for.
A marine corp gunny named Charles Wiley taught me the trick, and it was in a Gun World edition in about 1976 written by Dean Grennell, he a 1911/45 man also.

[1858rem]

I made a lot of change with a 45/1911 at 300 yards on a range in Silverado Calif. in Orange County. I could keep 5 out of 7 on a pie plate at that range.
It is actually very easy once you know how much drop to compensate for.

so can you easily put 5 of 7 shots into about .67 inches at 25 yards also? i dont know your experience level but i would be happy with 1.25" at 25 yards if i could consistently do it, if only from a rest.

[Big Top Gt]

How's this one for ya? (Shotguns, I know, but still a good idea of what a skilled marksman brings to the table.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk5zXbY-l2g

:)