21 foot rule equivalent for dogs?


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akodo
June 26, 2009, 10:59 PM
The other thread got me thinking.

I am sure you are all more familiar with the specifics of the 21 foot rule than I am, but the basics of it are...

From standing flat footed and appearing unarmed, a person can draw a knife and dash 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. This is also roughly the amount of time it takes a well trained police officer (or carrying citizen with good training) to pull an openly carried firearm and fire one shot.

I am going to assume concealed carry would add time to that factor, and we all known 'action beats reaction' which in this case means it will take a split second between your eyes intaking the data of 'he has a knife and is moving my way!' and your brain receiving this data, processing it as INCOMING THREAT, and then process SOLUTION: DRAW AND FIRE and then to finally process GIVE HANDS-ARMS THE COMMAND: COMMENCE DRAW AND FIRE NOW!


But what is the rule for dogs?

To anyone's knowledge, has there been any study about how fast a dog can go from sitting/standing to teeth on? Like for instance a trained police dog, how much distance can it cover in 1.5 seconds?

As we saw above, self defense against dogs can be very complicated. NOTE: PLEASE CONCENTRATE ON SPECIFIC INCIDENTS, OR GENERIC ATTACKS/BEHAVIORS, NOT ON THE LOCKED INCIDENT.

I assume we all agree that you don't have to wait for the criminal to actually stab into flesh before firing.

Do we all agree that in the same manner, we don't have to wait for a dog to actually sink teeth into flesh before firing?

Of course, another complication is that all dogs have teeth, but not all people have weaponry. If you shoot a guy claiming 'he pulled a knife and menaced me at very close range' and then the police find a knife on the corpse, this will be seen as corroborating evidence, because most people don't have knives on them. For a dog, of course the dog will have teeth, that is the standard! So what corroborating evidence can you supply that the dog had barred his teeth and appeared about to attack as much as a man pulling a knife would appear ready to attack?

It is true that most dogs are very territorial, and will raise a ruckus and bare teeth, but never actually leave the yard...this is 99.9% of dogs. But many attacks end up being cases of the dog leaving the yard to attack. From the outside, the behaviors of a normal dog being territorial and a dangerous dog ready and willing to ignore his owner's yard and attack will look nearly identical. How can the average person distinguish between them? Do you need to get a degree in Animal Behavior to spot the tiny distinctions to be justified in using force?

What about the cases where the dog has appropriated public right-of-way as part of his territory? A great example of this would be a side-walk that passes across the front yard. What about someone who has a reasonable reason for being on your property?

Say A person pulls up to a house to sell something, deliver fliers, or ask for directions. Person gets out of car and approaches house, and rings bell. Dog, who had been in the back yard hears the bell and comes charging around the corner teeth bare, snarling. Do you expect the person to submit to the attack simply because they are on the dog's yard? Do you suggest the person try and run for their car maybe 20 yards away? (which could kick the dog into prey pursuit mode) Do you believe the person being on the 'dog's property' needs to wait until he is bitten before he can use force to stop the dog? Can the person simply draw and shoot the dog?

Again, 99.99% of dogs in that situation probably wouldn't bite...but a lot of dog bites at the emergency room come from stories like that.

For the record, I am a HUGE dog fan. However, I also recall my sister when she was about 4 or so getting rushed by a dog and bitten when we were at a public park, by a dog the owner would have sworn 'would never hurt anyone, this dog loves kids!'

Also, we are all familiar with shooting incidents where the shopkeeper or homeowner is forced to defend themselves and in the aftermath it turns out the attacker is killed. At that point you have all his family and relatives and school friends and basketball teammates etc etc coming out and saying 'My boy was a good boy, he never did no harm to nobody! Why'd that guy have to shoot my son, he never been in trouble with the law, he was always fun at parties never caused any trouble, was a great player and teammate!'

We tend to roll our eyes at that. We realize these people are both very biased and ignoring the evidence right in front of them that their son was indeed a scumbag. If a mother can be that wrong about her son, how much credence should we give any dog-owner who states 'my dog would never do that! He's a good dog!' OR, on the flip side, if the stereotypical 'attacker's mother' is correct, and her son's actions are out of character, but happened non-the-less, how much weight can we put in a dog owner's statement of 'my dog would never do that! he's never done it before!'

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Gunnerpalace
June 26, 2009, 11:17 PM
This wont end well, people get all wound up over this topic,

I'll just say, you do what you have to to stay alive.

Dr.Who
June 26, 2009, 11:25 PM
Just to make this simple.... The 21 foot rule for human's (2 legs) should maybe be 40 foot rule for Dogs (4 Legs). Twice as many legs, twice as quick.... Now I'm not applying any science to this formula.... Just looking at the double leg power....

If I was a conceal carry person and a dog was charging me, with what I feel is intent to do harm, he may get a warning shot or just a shot in his chest... Depends on the circumstance. I know that from concealment, I can draw and fire a point shot in close contact in 1.25 seconds. An aimed shot a bit longer, due to bring gun up to aquire sight picture. So the question is, how fast can a medium size to large dog cover 40 feet?

Maelstrom
June 26, 2009, 11:42 PM
I'd look up the average running speed for a dog and an average running speed for a human. I forget the exact numbers but a typical dog is about twice as fast as a person.

Geneseo1911
June 26, 2009, 11:53 PM
The problem is, a it's pretty easy to tell if a human is going to attack or just wants to play; it's not so easy with a dog.

By the time you could have any inkling a dog has bad intentions, it's too late. You can't shoot every running dog (plus I'd bet they're darn hard to hit), so the best solution is avoidance and keeping an adult between ANY unknown animal and any vulnerable person (ie child etc).

JMusic
June 27, 2009, 12:08 AM
I've shot a lot of dogs it would be hard for me to do it much anymore. Move , use your feet or cover but remember dogs can turn fast. I hit one with a knomchocks one time and about knocked myself out. When they are coming toward you you are better off to try to push them away with feet, hip, or hands then kick the hell out of them right behind the rubs. At least thats what I here.:D Yeah shouting helps too when they get close. Not many dogs are a problem if you stay calm and do not show fear. Serious dogs in my experience make little noise and your first indication is when you hear them running or they hit you.



JIM

hso
June 27, 2009, 12:11 AM
A teacup poodle and a standard poodle will cover the same distance in different amounts of time. That's just the variation within a breed. Considering that there's a much greater variation within the whole range of breeds it would be difficult to establish any similar rule of thumb.

ArmedBear
June 27, 2009, 12:17 AM
Say A person pulls up to a house to sell something, deliver fliers, or ask for directions. Person gets out of car and approaches house, and rings bell. Dog, who had been in the back yard hears the bell and comes charging around the corner teeth bare, snarling. Do you expect the person to submit to the attack simply because they are on the dog's yard?

And when you're found shot dead on someone else's property where you had no specific business being, with a gun in your hand and one round fired, then what?

Seriously, if a stranger was on your property with a gun out, pointing it at your dog, or whatever -- more so if he FIRES the gun -- would you be expected to ask him a lot of questions before you used force to stop a deadly threat? "Self-defense" is a pretty limited thing, when you're on someone else's property without an invitation. Brandishing a firearm would most likely be an act of offense, not defense.

I'm guessing that, most of the time, you'd be far better off yelling for the property owner, and suing for any injury from the dog attack, than to be found shooting a gun on someone else's property for any reason. The guy following the dog with a 12 Gauge might call off the dog when he sees you're not a threat, but if he finds you pointing a pistol in his direction, he might be inclined to shoot you.

People don't think these scenarios through very much.

(The best defense is your brain. Don't intentionally go into any situation that could require you to use a gun in self-defense, or that gives you a bad feeling. Stay off others' property unless you have a reason to be there initiated by the owner. Selling something, littering their door with flyers, or "asking for directions" are not initiated by the property owner. Furthermore, "asking for directions' can be a suspicious act in and of itself in some contexts.)

huntsman
June 27, 2009, 12:23 AM
Say A person pulls up to a house to sell something, deliver fliers, or ask for directions. Person gets out of car and approaches house, and rings bell. Dog, who had been in the back yard hears the bell and comes charging around the corner teeth bare, snarling. Do you expect the person to submit to the attack simply because they are on the dog's yard? Do you suggest the person try and run for their car maybe 20 yards away? (which could kick the dog into prey pursuit mode) Do you believe the person being on the 'dog's property' needs to wait until he is bitten before he can use force to stop the dog? Can the person simply draw and shoot the dog?

The best thing to do is understand dog behavior.

I had a job that took me into people's yards without prior notice, naturally I had dog encounters but I never had one just rush up and attack, even Rots and Dobies would stop and size up the situation.

So no I'd say you couldn't just shoot a dog because he's inside 40' or even 20'. But I wouldn't advise any running or other fast movement either and never turn your back on them.

ArmedBear
June 27, 2009, 12:31 AM
BTW dogs can attack VERY quickly.

However, in nearly all cases, these are extremely-well-trained dogs (e.g. police K9), and they attack ON COMMAND, not whenever they see someone.

huntsman is right on, re guard dogs that encounter a human and have not been commanded to do anything. If they're growling, that means they aren't attacking. They want you to leave, so they don't have to fight.

Furthermore, if the dog has not been commanded to attack you, a properly-presented Slim Jim (the "food" item, not the auto burglary tool) would probably be a better defense than a handgun.:D

buck460XVR
June 27, 2009, 12:35 AM
a human with a knife or gun will kill you within seconds........a dog ain't gonna be that fast. You give 'em your free arm to chew on and you got maybe four or five minutes till he gets to your jugular. Make the most of it.


That's if he's alone.

21bubba
June 27, 2009, 01:27 AM
Years ago a k-9 officer told me that a dog can be defeated one way, treat it like a man. Stand your ground and fight it as if you're in a street fight. Most people let a dog attack them. The trick is to go on the offensive. Punch it, grab it and choke it, get it down and kick the living crap outta it.
Sure you might get scratched, maybe bit, but remember, you're being attacked by something that probably weighs 120 pounds max. It's only "weapon" are teeth.
Yes i've been attacked by a dog before (rottwhiller). I got bit once, but the dog had a broken nose and broken ribs.

Frank Ettin
June 27, 2009, 02:03 AM
First, it's not a rule. It's a drill intended to demonstrate the distance at which an attacker with a contact weapons can be a credible threat.

akodo
June 27, 2009, 02:35 AM
And when you're found shot dead on someone else's property where you had no specific business being, with a gun in your hand and one round fired, then what?

Seriously, if a stranger was on your property with a gun out, pointing it at your dog, or whatever -- more so if he FIRES the gun -- would you be expected to ask him a lot of questions before you used force to stop a deadly threat? "Self-defense" is a pretty limited thing, when you're on someone else's property without an invitation. Brandishing a firearm would most likely be an act of offense, not defense.

wait, so you are saying that anyone on your property with a firearm in hand, you just shoot first and ask questions later?

One argument against CCW the antis like to make is that in a situation that would warrant use of a firearm, the CCWers will be busy shooting eachother, as they will see 'man with a gun!'

This seems to be the argument you are making.

The counter to this argument can be found in the advice of some of the Israelies when asked this question about their generally armed society. Their answer was 'easy...the guy shooting unarmed people, women, and children, he's the terrorist!'

This means (to me anyways) when encountering another armed individual who isn't aiming the gun at you, you need to see what he is acting against before you decide if you are going to fight against him or with him.

Seriously, if a stranger was on your property with a gun out, pointing it at your dog, or whatever -- more so if he FIRES the gun -- would you be expected to ask him a lot of questions before you used force to stop a deadly threat?

really? And then you look down and realize the stranger was shooting your dog because it was biting a child? Too bad, stranger dead?

Are you saying that you would only use YOUR firearm for self defense on YOUR property, for fear of being mistake by the property owner as an attacker? Seems to me you deal with the CURRENT threat with whatever tools you have, and worry about a future threat when it materializes.

"Self-defense" is a pretty limited thing, when you're on someone else's property without an invitation. Brandishing a firearm would most likely be an act of offense, not defense.

That is contrary to my understanding. Self-Defense is pretty much 'you can use whatever means necessary to stop someone/thing from attempting to kill/seriously harm you or your loved ones. If the attacker is killed in the process, that is acceptable.

Now, it is true that in some states on your own property you are given 'benifit of the doubt' in an instance of, say, an armed intruder in your home. To my knowledge, "Castle Laws" and the like don't apply to the front lawn or driveway.

To me, the reasonable thing to do with a HUMAN not actively threatening you, but clearly armed, #1 assess what threat they are dealing with and then #2 to COMMUNICATE with them. It is much easier to do that with a person than a dog. Tell them drop the gun, yell GET DOWN GET DOWN GET DOWN at them, etc. Now, if the guy swings the gun toward you...then you are reacting to his action, not simply him having a gun.

In closing, I must suggest you never go and buy land in a rural area where the exact boundaries are not clearly marked. You might have a hunter who inadvertantly crosses a few feet off the property he has permission to hunt and onto yours, at which point you would apparently shoot them in self defense because they have a gun in their hands.

Sunray
June 27, 2009, 03:40 AM
You will never be faster than any animal.
"...understand dog behavior..." Exactly. Dogs defend their territory, even if it's a wee bit of front yard. Dogs don't pay the least bit of attention to warning shots. However, a dog running at you isn't necessarily charging. He may be just running out to greet you.
Listen to Geneseo1911.

22-rimfire
June 27, 2009, 10:36 AM
Every situation is different. I make no rules. I follow my instincts.

lions
June 27, 2009, 11:30 AM
...a properly-presented Slim Jim (the "food" item, not the auto burglary tool) would probably be a better defense than a handgun.

But how fast can you draw and deploy a concealed Slim Jim?:D

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 11:34 AM
Stand your ground and fight it as if you're in a street fight. Most people let a dog attack them. The trick is to go on the offensive. Punch it, grab it and choke it, get it down and kick the living crap outta it.I have been attacked by two different dogs. Both times, the solution was to attempt to jam my fist through the mouth and out the back end. Both times I received only minor scrapes on the arm from teeth, and was able to disengage.
I'm not saying that a firearm isn't a viable choice for canine defense, but rule zero still applies - DON'T PANIC.
You are smarter than a dog (I hope), most adults are larger than most breeds by a comfortable margin, and you are on the defense, so the dog's speed isn't as much of an advantage. A club of some kind will give most dogs pause, while a handgun might not even be noticed until a round is discharged ... perhaps an asp/baton would be the better plan if you are expecting canine encounters.

springmom
June 27, 2009, 11:59 AM
But how fast can you draw and deploy a concealed Slim Jim?

Come to the free state of Texas. We can open carry Slim Jims without a problem. Handguns, no. Slim Jims...you're good.

Probably the best suggestion I've heard yet. I have never seen a dog that didn't become my Very Best Friend when I had a piece of jerky to dangle in front of his nose.

Jan

ArmedBear
June 27, 2009, 12:06 PM
wait, so you are saying that anyone on your property with a firearm in hand, you just shoot first and ask questions later?

The "rule" I've heard is "you can't talk and shoot at the same time." If I ask a lot of questions, or yell repeatedly like a cheerleader, I'm asking to die.

I doubt I'd say anything beyond, "Drop it!" with my gun pointed at him and my finger on the trigger. That's what the cops would do, too. If he turns towards me with the gun still in his hand, I'm not volunteering to die.

In closing, I must suggest you never go and buy land in a rural area where the exact boundaries are not clearly marked. You might have a hunter who inadvertantly crosses a few feet off the property he has permission to hunt and onto yours, at which point you would apparently shoot them in self defense because they have a gun in their hands.

There's a pretty clear distinction between a hunter hiking around and a guy on my property brandishing a handgun in front of my house, whether I live on 1/10 acre or 100.

Here's the thing: when you're dead, will you care about the property owner's court case?

But hey, you go and assert your right to shoot on someone else's property and enjoy yourself. Personally, I wouldn't be too eager to get shot. But maybe you'd enjoy it.

jerkface11
June 27, 2009, 12:06 PM
Carrying a gun will probably present less legal difficulties than carrying a club.

jerkface11
June 27, 2009, 12:09 PM
And this nonsense is why dog threads always get locked.
Seriously, if a stranger was on your property with a gun out, pointing it at your dog, or whatever -- more so if he FIRES the gun -- would you be expected to ask him a lot of questions before you used force to stop a deadly threat? "Self-defense" is a pretty limited thing, when you're on someone else's property without an invitation. Brandishing a firearm would most likely be an act of offense, not defense.


IF YOUR DOG ATTACKS SOMEONE IT SHOULD BE KILLED. If you want your dog to live control and contain it.

ArmedBear
June 27, 2009, 12:12 PM
jerkface, that's true, to an extent (not including a guard dog on your property, which is not something I own but I think that anyone has a right to have if they want to -- on their property).

However, I'm guessing from experience that most people can't tell if a dog is attacking or running around the yard. Maybe in your neck of the woods they can, but not where I've been.

Stay off private property, though, and you won't have to worry about that so much.

Or are you seriously recommending that I come down to Arkansas, stroll around on others' property, and shoot their dogs if they come running at me?

I don't think that would be a good idea. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

There's a difference between "I have the technical right to do X" and "Doing X is a good idea." I don't think that the OP had really given a lot of thought to what is "a good idea".

The fact that he just posted another long post arguing about his rights, and castle doctrine law, etc., demonstrates clearly that he doesn't WANT to consider what is "a good idea."

If there's a guy in my BACK yard with a gun out, he's VERY close to getting shot. I have a full fence around it. I'd call the cops then wait with a gun pointed at him. My exact actions would depend on his demeanor.

If there's a guy in my FRONT yard with a gun out, I'd call the cops, and have my gun ready. At best, he'll have explaining to do when the cops arrive (because I will ID him when he's down the street, too).

HOWEVER, I'm pretty sane. I do NOT trust that everyone, even on my own street, will act with a lot of restraint. The technicalities of castle doctrine law don't stop bullets, nor do they make all people cool-headed.

And that's not even considering the fact that a house with an unrestrained human-aggressive dog is likely to contain people who are NOT exactly law abiding... Don't you have any meth or other drugs where you live?

Do you think that your being "right" will extract those bullets from you?

christcorp
June 27, 2009, 12:53 PM
I will simply say that a gun is just a tool. If you are planning on a gun potentially SAVING your life; DON'T!!! "Gun don't Kill people; People Kill People". "Guns don't SAVE people; People Save People". It's simply a tool. Other MORE IMPORTANT tools are: Being able to be aware of your situation and surroundings. This alone can help you AVOID potential hazardous situations. Also; knowing/learning some very basic self defense moves. (You don't even need classes; just the HOWS and practice on your own); This will help you with giving yourself more time, or assisting when you don't have the 1.5 seconds/21 feet to work with. This is applicable to humans or dogs.

When the gun comes out; it's a neutralizing tool. It should bring such a situation to a halt. Either 1) The criminal stops. 2) The criminal Flees. or 3) You shoot the criminal. I'm sorry, but I truly believe (based on my own experiences) that no matter how good you are with a gun; no matter how much you practice; and no matter how much you've played every possible scenario in your mind: This is not hollywood. And if you think that all you need is a gun, and being proficient is going to save your life when needed; then I can only pray that you never need it. (Which I pray that no one ever needs it anyway). But a gun alone is not going to save you. It NEVER has, and NEVER will. It's you the person who will save you. When you add other tools to your self-defense; besides a gun; your chances of survival go up more than they did by you having a gun. Don't get me wrong; I definitely support guns. I wish that more people owned and carried them. But more people in the country have defended themselves from attacks by using many other tools than those who have had a gun. The gun can definitely give you an edge. But to have the attitude of: "I have a gun now; I'll be safe", is a very dangerous attitude to have.

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 12:57 PM
Carrying a gun will probably present less legal difficulties than carrying a club.I lost a bit there, I was talking about an improvised club or baton ... not suggesting that everyone carry a baseball bat at all times.
(not to say that a law-abiding citizen carrying a baseball bat should raise any eyebrows, either ... even though it would)

KarenTOC
June 27, 2009, 01:00 PM
Dogs are tricky. I have two. The "large" male is a wuss, but the small female qualifies as a sometime "attack" dog. I don't claim to be able to understand them even after living with them for 8 1/2 years.

Attack dog is all fluffy white puppy-innocence. She sees a stranger (human or canine) from a distance and she's panting and tail-wagging and straining at the leash to go play with them. But, from time to time, and with no pattern I've been able to discern, at about 18 inches away she morphs into five pounds of snarling, growling, evil elf-dog. Her mouth barely opens wide enough to grasp a man's thumb, and her teeth are so small they probably wouldn't penetrate a layer of fabric, so she couldn't do much damage if she did manage to bite. Nevertheless, I never let her loose, and I never let children pet her unless I'm actually holding her. I would hate to lose my dog to an act of justifiable self-defense.

The evil elf-dog:
100501

mljdeckard
June 27, 2009, 01:10 PM
In Utah, dogs are a strict liability. No attack is ever justified, the dog never gets the benefit of the doubt. For this reason, I give dogs less slack than humans. If they are loose and behaving badly, I start thinking about deadly force immediately. (Back off animal lovers, I said THINK about it, not DO it.)

Any dog seriously capable of harming a human can probably move pretty fast. Doubling the distance sound like a reasonable idea to me.

mercedesrules
June 27, 2009, 03:57 PM
I multiply 21 x 7, like the age deal, so I start drawing at 147 ft.

akodo
June 27, 2009, 06:43 PM
If there's a guy in my FRONT yard with a gun out, I'd call the cops, and have my gun ready. At best, he'll have explaining to do when the cops arrive (because I will ID him when he's down the street, too).

I am glad you have come to your senses.

In your previous post you stated:

And when you're found shot dead on someone else's property where you had no specific business being, with a gun in your hand and one round fired, then what?

Seriously, if a stranger was on your property with a gun out, pointing it at your dog, or whatever -- more so if he FIRES the gun -- would you be expected to ask him a lot of questions before you used force to stop a deadly threat? "Self-defense" is a pretty limited thing, when you're on someone else's property without an invitation. Brandishing a firearm would most likely be an act of offense, not defense.

I'm guessing that, most of the time, you'd be far better off yelling for the property owner, and suing for any injury from the dog attack, than to be found shooting a gun on someone else's property for any reason. The guy following the dog with a 12 Gauge might call off the dog when he sees you're not a threat, but if he finds you pointing a pistol in his direction, he might be inclined to shoot you.

which makes it sound like upon seeing the gun, you would simply assume the stranger was a theat and start shooting.

I am glad you realize that the proper response was to communicate first and shoot second.

However, you still seem to be arguing that a gun in the hands of a stranger could be taken as a threat, and a different homeowner might open fire. So my original quesiton still stands.

If YOU (Armedbear) are being attacked by a dog in the front yard of someone else's property, do you really choose to NOT use your firearm for fear of the homeowner mistaking you as a threat and killing you?

Final question, you talk a lot about 'staying off other people's property'. Where I grew up in rural areas, a person's property line extended to the middle of the road. Hence, anyone driving down the road was 'on your property' although they had a legal right to be there. Where I live now sidewalks run on people's property, and the owners of the property where the sidewalk runs are responsible for keeping them shoveled free of snow. Hence, anyone walking down the sidewalk is also 'on your property' although they have a legal right to be there.

Hence, is your advice to Stay off private property, though, and you won't have to worry about that so much very realistic? How is a campaigner, salesmen, mailman, girlscout selling cookies, person in need of directions, meter-reader, etc etc, supposed to approach a home if they are following your advice of 'stay off private property'

qwert65
June 27, 2009, 07:20 PM
How is a campaigner, salesmen, mailman, girlscout selling cookies, person in need of directions, meter-reader, etc etc, supposed to approach a home if they are following your advice of 'stay off private property'

If it's posted private property only the mailman(If I don't have a box by the driveway) and meter-reader have a right to be there.
I would shoot someone with a gun out on my property(barring a few circumstances-cop in uniform etc) esp if my dog had just been shot.

I don't understand why people get worried about problems on other ppl's property. To me on his turf the dog gets the benefit of the doubt ie he has to bite before you shoot, spray, etc.
Now off his property that is another story altogether

lebowski
June 27, 2009, 07:42 PM
I think from > 21 ft away you're going to have a very hard time telling if a dog is going to attack you.

IMO many of the people on these sites worried about shooting to stop dog attacks don't really know how to read/handle them. Unless you're talking about a trained K9 or similar, most dogs will back down. Stand up straight and yell "No!" in an authoritative voice. Dogs are domesticated animals - they've been bred for generations to be subservient to people. Act like you're the dominant one and the vast majority of the time the dog will back down. For the cases when that won't work, I carry Fox Labs OC when I walk my dog, pepper spray supposedly works well on dogs.

That's not to say there aren't cases where shooting a dog is justified, I just think it's pretty rare. If it came down to it I would shoot an aggressive dog, but again I don't think I could always make that determination from 21 ft away ... lots of dogs will put on a show at that distance w/ no intention of actually biting.

Odd Job
June 27, 2009, 08:04 PM
I have had two dog bites.
The first was when I was only a toddler and I was playing with an otherwise placid Alsatian with a damaged leg, and I rolled onto that sore leg. I got bitten through my upper lip and cheek (the dog's lower canines were in my mouth and the upper ones through my face).

The second one was totally unexpected.
I was in my teens and was wheeling a bicycle on the road, just about to set off after visiting my friend. An Afghan came trotting out of one of the yards, through the open front gate, walked up to me in a non threatening manner, bit my arse and walked back. There were six or seven punctures in my skin, through my jeans. I had to get a shot for that. The bite hurt quite a bit also!

Round about that time I was getting chased by dogs while I was on my bicycle in that neighbourhood. I don't know if they would have bitten me or chewed the bicycle or just stood there barking at me once they caught up, but all the same I then got a .25 to put in my pocket while cycling.

I never had to fire that at a dog, but I pretty much resigned myself to getting bitten before firing the gun. A moving dog (I imagine) isn't an easy target, and as there isn't a way for me to tell if he'll bite or not, I thought to myself, I'll let him bite and then he gets it (preferably a contact wound).

ChCx2744
June 27, 2009, 08:07 PM
If a dog is charging you and you feel that you need to put it down, it doesn't matter how far he is...if you decide you want to reach out and touch him to stop him, by all means, stop the threat.

One of my nieghbors (an obvious perp, always rolling into the parking space with his 500" rims, blasting that god awful bass of his and music of less than reputable "hood" stature) always walks around the nieghborhood with his white pitbull off it's leash. I drew down on it once when he was inattentive and screamed at the top of my lungs to put the (*unmentioned word*)'ing dog on a leash; it began running towards me so I had to open my car door back up and get behind it. He just stared me down and I stared him down...he finally said "tch" and grabbed the dog and went inside. Got evicted 2 months later for domestic disputes with his less than reputable lady friend(s) and constant disturbances. :)

Ron James
June 27, 2009, 09:15 PM
Gunner Palace, Your right this isn't ending well :) I have been attached by dogs, singular dogs. Both times I sustained bites , both time the dog went limping away. Unless the dog has a one track mind, such as some drug dealers dogs. ( I wont say Pit Bulls because we all know Pit Bulls are just big lap dogs ) A swift well aimed kick stopped each time. If it is the case of a vicious mistreated and mistrained dog that should not have been loose to start with, forget any rules about how fast can they reach you. A mean attacking dog will be on you before you can scratch your ba!!s. You will have a hard time getting to any type of defensive weapon, no need to set and wonder if you should defend yourself. Your legs and arms will be a bloody mess { at this point your arm should be in front of your throat}. Most times you will not even see the animal until they are in the air. So, methinks this is much a do about nothing. Just an exercise in rant and rave. JMHO:)

45Badger
June 27, 2009, 09:17 PM
If YOU (Armedbear) are being attacked by a dog in the front yard of someone else's property, do you really choose to NOT use your firearm for fear of the homeowner mistaking you as a threat and killing you?

How do you know you are being attacked? If teeth are in my arm or dog has jumped on me, I might shoot. Until then, it's premature.

Jorg called me "quite the little bloodthirsty vigilante" for merely wishing that I HAD fired upon an aggressive animal that not only broke the 21 foot rule, but got right in my 6 year old's face and barked, so obviously the "rule" for firing on a human is simpler, and more allowed than firing on an aggressive dog

Same question. I understand this was upsetting, but there was no attack. Kind of like a punk jaw-boning you and acting tough/threatening, but it's only words. Would you shoot someone who got in your face and yelled not nice things? If we shoot every dog that barks, snarls and runs at us, there will be a lot of (unnecessarily) dead dogs. There are a lot intermediate steps to take before pulling the trigger. Punches, kicks, etc dissuade all but the most determined and vicious toy poodles:neener:

When I lived in the sticks of central NY, I had a 1300 foot driveway (so no mistaking property). I had a female lab that would poke around the yard, and spent most of her time on the porch. When anybody unfamiliar (my dad, my boss, Jehovah's Witnesses;)) would pull up and get out of their cars she would run towards them, growling/barking her head off, hair on her back straight up from head to tail. She would skid to halt in front of them, growling. When they would reach out and touch/pet her, she promptly evacuated her bladder. Some watchdog:rolleyes:

45Badger
June 27, 2009, 09:19 PM
Most times you will not even see the animal until they are in the air. So, methinks this is much a do about nothing. Just an exercise in rant and rave. JMHO

Bingo:neener:

gripper
June 27, 2009, 09:33 PM
I got gang tackeled by 8 Pit Bulls while taking out the trash...that is 8 EIGHT week old PBT puppies,with "Daddy Diesel" lookin gon and waiting for sme beef jerky(LOL!)-my neighbors dogs had two back to back litters-it was great.Gotta love the breed!

jerkface11
June 28, 2009, 12:05 AM
Same question. I understand this was upsetting, but there was no attack. Kind of like a punk jaw-boning you and acting tough/threatening, but it's only words. Would you shoot someone who got in your face and yelled not nice things? If we shoot every dog that barks, snarls and runs at us, there will be a lot of (unnecessarily) dead dogs.

So we should wait till the dog is actually biting the 6 year old before doing anything?

Flyboy
June 28, 2009, 01:10 AM
In Utah, dogs are a strict liability. No attack is ever justified, the dog never gets the benefit of the doubt.
Does this include police dogs, or is this another example of how government agents--even non-human ones--are "more equal" than the rest of us?

maniak
June 28, 2009, 01:24 AM
So we should wait till the dog is actually biting the 6 year old before doing anything?
I know that further up the thread we had an actual person with an actual child who was actually at risk and I'm glad that the child was not injured.

But do we now have a hypothetical meter reader taking his hypothetical six-year-old with him to distribute Jehovah's Witness pamphlets in a neighborhood he doesn't know in an attempt to prove it's alright to wander around in other people's yards with our guns drawn shooting at their dogs?

It would be very weird to argue that you have the right to use your gun on someone else's property because you fear a dog, but the property owner has no right to use his/her gun on his/her property because he/she fears a gun wielding human.

And what would be weirder still would be: gun ownership trumps land ownership or, in this case, land plus gun ownership (or at least occupancy). What if the meter reader owns a home, too? Now he can't shoot? But if he just rents, can he shoot again?

Sometimes I see us inventing these corner cases to prove our points and it just gets silly.

By all means, a dog threatens your child anywhere: yell, jump up and down, do your damndest to get between the dog and the child and if necessary kick the crap out of it to keep it off your kid. And there's no reason to wait for teeth to hit flesh to get busy. Anyone is going to understand that.

In a worst case scenario, a dog attacks your child anywhere: kick it, punch it, grab it, choke it, slice its throat if that's what it takes to get the dog off your kid. If I'm there, even if it's my dog, if that's what it takes, I'll slice its throat myself ... and spend the rest of my life grieving your kid's scars and (probably) the loss of the dog.

I like guns, love dogs, joked in the registration for my upcoming high school reunion (when asked what was most important to me): "I'm clinging to my guns and dog, but suffering from mild dyslexia, so maybe that's 'snug and dog.'" (I'm not saying they'll get it, but I think it's funny.)

But there are some situations in which guns just aren't the right tool. Leaving all the property issues and gun ownership advocacy issues aside, the way dogs move, you're probably better off on the dog and wielding a knife.

This is probably especially true if the dog is moving toward or is already on a child. I know you're all pretty good shots and grabbing ahold of thrashing fur and gnashing teeth is scary. But it's better to risk getting bit than to risk putting a bullet in a kid, at least IMHO.

And if you find yourself in your meter reader uniform with your satchel filled with pamphets and your child at your side in someone else's yard with your knife in their dog, I would highly recommend leaving the knife there as you're getting off of it.

And if you can get out of there before the owner gets home, I'd recommend filing your police report at the station.

But what do I know? I'm just a "New Member."

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 01:28 AM
This is coming from a 24 yr peckerwood countryboy, so take it for whats its worth. Dogs ARE NOT just some sociopath apex killers. They aint a lion, they aint a tiger nor are they a damn bear. Meaning their not out to kill your little kids in the middle of night, day or whatever.

Dogs are territorial, they serve to protect and defend their territory. If you stare a alpha male tempered dog down (like mine) in their territory aka front or back yard, prepare for a CONFRONTATION, as you have just provoked it. But for god sakes a dog is not going to go out of his way to hunt and kill a person for no damn reason unless it’s provoked!

And if your paranoid some dog is going stalk & confront you "HIGH NOON" style at 21ft and then charge to kill you like a little zebra, you have several options;

1. Carry a blunt object with your paranoid self at all times and beat that sob's brains until before or after it jaws locks off. A Maglite 4d or 6d maybe.

2. Or prematurely Shoot it before it actually locks on to you somewhere in that 21 feet charge & have a field day trying to proove in court it was a ever so life threatening situation justifiable by lethal force with a firearm! All while having no battle wounds not even a scratch to show off.

3. Let it lock on you or your kid and blast away legally, hoping you manage not to shoot your kid or yourself in the process.

maniak
June 28, 2009, 01:29 AM
I got gang tackeled by 8 Pit Bulls while taking out the trash...that is 8 EIGHT week old PBT puppies,with "Daddy Diesel" lookin gon and waiting for sme beef jerky(LOL!)-my neighbors dogs had two back to back litters-it was great.Gotta love the breed!
That's why we need high-cap mags. ;^)

maniak
June 28, 2009, 01:33 AM
Maybe we need a new thread to determine a separate footage rule on mountain lions?

On trail: In tree? Out of tree?

In zoo: Out of cage? In cage?

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 01:35 AM
I know this thread is a continuation to the original thread started by Pursuasion over force which is now closed. Therefore I'm basing my observations on his following example;http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=458683

I was walking with my 6 year old son last night in our neighborhood, when all of a sudden an aggressive dog simultaneously started barking very aggressively and leapt off it's porch and charged us. It wasn't on a leash and it ran all the way to the sidewalk, barking aggressively the whole time. After a second of the dog barking face to face with my son, I finally DID take out my Kel-Tec P32 and chambered a round and noticed that the dog had taken a few steps back into it's front yard and stopped barking. We went on our way.The gun should have come out when the dog charged and I should have fired before it got to my son.

Hypothetically, I do believe I might ponder the use of lethal force myself if you did this to my dog on my property, especially since an unknown armed man just shot a bullet aimed in the direction of my house IN ADDITION TO killing my dog which now lies dead ON MY PROPERTY. These would be equal immature emotional reactions by both individuals of course, but nonetheless both decisions have produced unnecessary deadly consequences. Just a thought.



And also For GOD SAKES my bulldog has charged the fedex guy while barking & snarling countless of times. He however always stops and never actually makes contact with him. Think about the everlasting "DOG vs MAILMAN" war. Pursuasion over force you have become the "MAILMAN" to that dog nothing more nothing less.

maniak
June 28, 2009, 01:36 AM
I think I saw that "evil elf-dog's" mug shot on a poster board at the post office.

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 01:50 AM
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2907/600pxgermanshepard.jpg

LOOK OUT <insert name here>!! A German Shepherd (left) is capable of sensing your fear at great distances. Always vigilant, these dogs will stand completely still and use their advanced sensory equipment to identify their next victim.

Once a victim is chosen, they will instinctively snarl and bark loudly in order to notify Hitler that the Allied Forces are approaching.

Once the Fuhrer has been notified there is no fence tall enough to stop them from killing you.

Capable of short flights, a German Shepherd can reach altitudes of 100 feet. Body armor prevents small arms fire from harming them and infrared vision makes your escape impossible.

Shadow 7D
June 28, 2009, 07:30 AM
I believe that in most state dogs are considered a form of property, besides that fact that actually firing a gun within city limits, in adition to brandishing a firearm is a crime. So to recap you want to know at what distance to get yourself shot.

So yes that is a good shoot under castle doctrine. In my neighborhood, immediately after shooting the dog you had better drop you gun raise you hand and be prepared for all the neighbors trying to find out what that stranger is shooting the place up. Not smart, but a good way to end up dead.

Better is to learn about dogs, and if attacked, a healthy individual should be able to fight off at least one dog. How many 150lb dogs do you know?

hso
June 28, 2009, 02:04 PM
So we should wait till the dog is actually biting the 6 year old before doing anything?

No, but there's a lot of territory between freezing up and drawing down. Oh, sayyyy, step between the dog and the child and shout "NO" while winding up for a solid kick or carry pepper spray or a walking stick. Every problem does not require a firearm for the solution.

Just an exercise in rant and rave. JMHO

Truer words have not been posted.

earlthegoat2
June 28, 2009, 03:20 PM
As a volunteer for the US Military police dog training at Lackland AFB I got to be in the bite suit a lot. If it was me and all things considered that this dog was coming for my jugular I would start shooting as soon as I thought it was committed to get me. Those dogs are on you like a fat kid on cake in .2 seconds.

Believe it or not the next best course of action to shooting or taser or pepper spray would probably be to run straight at the dog and meet the charge head on. Sometimes, unless the dog has been trained it will veer off and give you some distance.

Sometimes...

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 07:07 PM
Every problem does not require a firearm for the solution.

Nicely written hso, but I'd like to add;

Every problem does not require a firearm for the solution. Nor the excuse or bloodlust justification for the action.

netav8tor
June 28, 2009, 08:36 PM
Animal behaviorists say dogs will usually rethink an attack if you open a large umbrella and charge them. Another solution for a dog attacking another dog is to spray them with a fire extinguisher. I think (my opinion) a large air horn may work well too. I think I would find it difficult to accurately shoot a goblin dog attacking my family members or my dog.

Shadow 7D
June 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
The principle used with black bear is to get BIG and LOUD. Unless the dog is protecting, the same principle works. But if the dog is protecting then your out of luck, and out of place.

Grey_Mana
June 28, 2009, 09:27 PM
This thread is actually a cleverly disguised city mouse versus country mouse argument.

Where people own a quarter acre or more of land, if you shoot a dog on the dog owner's property, the strong presumption is that you came armed and looking for an excuse to shoot a living creature.

In a city like Philadelphia, where the sidewalk comes all the way up to the small front porches, a dog on his porch is only 5 feet away from somebody walking down the middle of the sidewalk. In cities, many dogs are walked up and down the street, and so they feel more territorial about the sidewalk.

That said, if you shoot at a moving dog, you'll probably miss. If the dog was coming from it's house, you've probably just shot into somebody's house. If you shoot into somebody's house and they shoot back and kill you, don't expect much sympathy.

If you shoot somebody's dog, expect to pay $1000-$5000 in veterinary bills, and $100-$3000 if the dog dies. Expect a restraining order against you. If you fired your gun on or into a stranger's property, don't expect to see your gun for at least a year. If their home gets broken into in the next year, expect to be questioned as an accessory.

If you shoot somebody's dog, expect the local paper and local blogs to publish your picture with the caption dog murderer. Expect your boss to be pressured to fire you, or your customers pressured to abandon you. Be prepared for the would-be tire slashers when they come. (For some reason, animal-rights folks tend to venn diagram to the folks that think tire slashing is constitutionally-protected free speech).

Hk91-762mm
June 28, 2009, 10:29 PM
I was driving down a country road and came upon a bicyclist being harassed by 3 dogs -- Now I hate dogs that go after bikes -! So i stopped and grabbed a large tire iron out of the back and went after the dogs -- Dogs don't want any part of an armed victim that can attack back [ I had experience with a doberman attacking me a 3 ft section of 1/2 angle iron dropped him like a bag of dog poop] after the guy got away I returned on my way --I called the cops and inquired about the use of the shotgun --I was told I certainly had a right to defend myself or others- I told them to have animal control go to the farm and have a chat. Biggest mistake I ever made was when the doberman attacked me and I dropped him I let him run away --I should have beat the thing till it was sure to never hurt anyone ever again !!
[stop beating keyboard to death ] lighten up..
SO --What caliber do you guys think is best for Chihuahuas Can I use 9mm or must it be at Least a 45acp. And is a 5.56X45mm really suitable for taking down a charging poodle.....

snorky18
June 28, 2009, 11:25 PM
One of my former jobs was stormwater research, which consisted of walking up and down every mile of river and creek of a particular city in middle TN with a handheld GPS and a clipboard.

The project was for the city, and they printed multiple notices in the paper, etc, telling the good citizens that some weirdo in chest waders with a GPS may be wandering in the local creeks and rivers, including next to their backyards, don't be alarmed, etc.

I carried with me a copy of the state law that gave my full legal right to trespass anywhere I needed to, and I only had to show it to people 2 or 3x in a 3 month period. I tried to be as quiet as possible, not sneaky, but no reason to get people all riled up if it could be avoided. And yes I realize that a piece of paper doesn't protect me from getting shot or bitten by a dog. Most of the time when people saw me I introduced myself, told them what I was doing, who for, and they were friendly about it.

Oh yeah, this was about dogs.

So one day I'm at the edge of the creek (which is right-of-way of the city/county), and an adult Rottie from the backyard next door comes at me full speed, snarling, teeth bared, etc. Nothing between me and it but a grass lawn. I stayed in the neighbor's backyard, stood my ground, and grabbed the range pole (39" long 1" diameter metal pole with a sharp point on one end) in both hands ready to spear the dog if it didn't stop.

The dog's owner was screaming something at me from across the yard, but I was paying so much attention to the black streak headed towards me I couldn't process what the owner was screaming.

About 7' from me the dog skids to a stop at the property line, still going nuts with the snarling, teeth, etc.

The dogs owner comes running up, grabs the dog and pulls it away, and as I start to calm down a bit I decipher the owner telling me that the dog has one of those (invisible) underground electric fences that it would not have gone outside.

The owner was semi-understandably a little pissed that I was going to spear his dog, and I sure didn't want to, but if his dog goes off his property to attack me, I didn't have a lot of options open at the time.

My points:
1)You never know where one of those pesky underground fences is

2)You never know if the dog would 100% certainly stop at the fence anyway

3)Dogs are a lot harder to read than humans, and it's hard to tell (at least for me) if they're going to actually attack or just bark and act mean or territorial etc. I don't know how you could know for sure they were going to attack.

4)You're going to be in a mess of legal trouble in most situations if you shoot an animal for anything other than protecting your own animals/family on your land. IIRC Animal Cruelty is a felony in many places. Obviously that's better than being dead, but I would prefer to explore all available options before using a gun.

5) You're looking at a decent probability of an equally serious confrontation with the dog owner if you shoot it. To a lot of people it's like shooting their child.

6)Not that I was carrying while working a city job on city property, but even if I was I'm about 95% sure I couldn't have drawn a handgun and shot the dog before it got to me. I wouldn't have the speed, or the accuracy. Even a big dog like a rottie had a fairly small frontal area (target) exposed to you when they are stretched out low and running directly towards you. Even if I had shot it, that's certainly no guarantee it would have stopped before it had a chance to take at least one big chunk out of me.

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