Shot myself with a .45 caliber last night.


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AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:22 PM
I debated on whether or not to make this thread. A, because I don't want to sensationalize anything and create a S&*itstorm on the board and B, because I don't wantr to come off as a lying troll. I'm lucky to even be here! But I think I should make it because I can hopefully convince anyone who thinks they have guns down to a science to reconsider and slow down a little bit next time they handle one.


It happened by taking down a glock pistol like I normally do for cleaning. Except this time it wasn't for cleaning, it was to lightly oil the insides for an extended storage on a friends Glock pistol....and I neglected to remember/check for a magazine inside. You can imagine what happened from there. I ALWAYS point the gun across my lap, to the left and down as I am right handed, and this is the only thing that saved me from something much worse. The bullet was a 230 gr fmj round nose Winchester. It entered the top of my thigh and grazed out to the left. A perfect superfic ial in and out. It could've been so much worse, and it could've been so easily avoided. Luckily for me, I was in and out of the trauma room in the ER in 30 minutes after speaking with a Police Officer regarding the circumstances. SO easily avoided, but it wasn't. boy did I feel dumb...and lucky at the same time.


It feels weird today to be up and walking and feeling fine (VERY little pain, minor soreness and a bandage that leaks a bit) after taking a .45 slug, let me tell you that I've learned a BIG lesson. I URGE everyone, whether they believe they're the safest handler of a firearm in the world to evaluate their safety practices and just slow down a little bit. Trust me, I will.

[Note from Moderator: You may not want to scroll down unless you are ready to see the hole in the guy's leg. It's not terribly gruesome, but you've been warned. - Jorg ]

If you enjoyed reading about "Shot myself with a .45 caliber last night." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
kirklandkie
June 26, 2009, 11:25 PM
thanks for sharing your story with us. a lesson learned the hard way, glad you're still here

-kirk

Boba Fett
June 26, 2009, 11:27 PM
TREAT EVERY FIREARM LIKE IT IS LOADED.
ALWAYS CHECK EVERY FIREARM YOU TOUCH. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Glad your alive. I'm sure the rest of THR will be along to really sock it too you, so prepare for the thunder.

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:28 PM
Oh, I'm ready for it. I made the post to hopefully make an example of m yself, because chances are the next time this happens to someone it'll be much worse.

hso
June 26, 2009, 11:30 PM
But I think I should make it because I can hopefully convince anyone who thinks they have guns down to a science to reconsider and slow down a little bit next time they handle one.

Thank you for being willing to post on this.

We all have to remember that handling firearms requires us to never cut corners or assume the weapon is unloaded. Follow the process, verify, verify, verify.

Your lapse could have resulted in a much worse wound for you, but it could also have resulted in a much worse wound for anyone on that side of you.

Whether concerned for our own hides or sickened by the prospect of harming an innocent bystander this serves as a reminder for us all that the rule "Treat all guns as if they were loaded" is there for a reason.

rainbowbob
June 26, 2009, 11:30 PM
I neglected to remember/check for a magazine inside.

I'm not sure I understand (but then I'm a revolver guy). Do you mean you neglected to check for a cartridge inside? I assume you dropped the magazine?

I hate hearing these stories because we'd all like to believe it couldn't happen to us. I must say, I rarely hear about something like this happening with a wheel gun.

Speedlace
June 26, 2009, 11:32 PM
Pics?

:)

Rollis R. Karvellis
June 26, 2009, 11:32 PM
Hate to admit this, but I had an AD last week with an AR, I was shotting the day before. Now there is a nice .223 hole in the ceiling.

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:33 PM
I didn't drop the mag. I am so used to taking them down that this time I just went straight into the motions. Very, very bad move. The golden rule stands firm, always treat them as if they're loaded.

wadeh
June 26, 2009, 11:35 PM
Thank you for your story. It goes to show how easy it is to lose focus for just long enough to have something that bad happen. Your sharing this could very well save someones life. I know it is not easy to talk about something like that but you have done a good thing in doing so. We can all learn from your experience. Thanks again.

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:35 PM
Is it ok to post pics? Or in bad taste?

Boba Fett
June 26, 2009, 11:35 PM
Hate to admit this, but I had an AD last week with an AR, I was shotting the day before. Now there is a nice .223 hole in the ceiling.

Dang, that like three in a week for THR members. :eek:

sig228
June 26, 2009, 11:35 PM
http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/signs/worthless.gif

Seriously. Photos or it didnt happen!!

chriso
June 26, 2009, 11:36 PM
My dad shot himself in the right butt cheek with a OLD ruger convertible 357. magnum/9mm he shot himself with a HP 357. magnum doctor said hes lucky he wasn't paralyzed and that teh heavy leather holster he whore slowed the bullet down enough for it to be found about a inch away from his spine... he was playing with his cowboy gun as a teenager he has a huge crate in his butt...

bigione
June 26, 2009, 11:38 PM
They are called accidents because they are mistakes that could be avoided. We are human and all make mistakes. Most we live to tell about. Thanks for sharing an embrassing moment. God speed on your recovery. Hopefully, we will all relearn the lesson.

twhitson87
June 26, 2009, 11:39 PM
I made an example of myself a while back by spinning a loaded cocked and locked 1911 around :eek:, and I definitely learned my lesson with that one (thanks in part to the kind words of our brutally honest forum members :neener:) I'm glad the gun didn't go off for me, and I'm glad your experience wasn't any worse than it was. Takes a man to stand up and admit his mistakes (and an even bigger man to survive a .45 slug!) I will say, along with such occurrences being rare with revolvers, it seems (and this is just from hearsay) that a disproportionate number of accidents happen with Glocks. No Glock bashing here, just sayin. Probably the whole "trigger pull for takedown" step. Anyway, here's to a speedy recovery! :)

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:39 PM
here goes. This is actually after I got home went to change the bandage.http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt336/woweezowee83/dscf1898.jpg

glock36
June 26, 2009, 11:40 PM
From me and mine I am happy to hear that you were able to walk away from your experance without extreem serious injury. Thanks for having the courage to post

Phydeaux642
June 26, 2009, 11:42 PM
"The gun is always loaded, The gun is always loaded, The gun is always loaded..."

Glad you're okay.

rainbowbob
June 26, 2009, 11:42 PM
Seriously. Photos or it didnt happen!!

Seriously? You ever heard of Doubting Thomas? He needed to put his finger in the holes before he'd believe it. Oh ye of little faith...

Do we really need to see graphic wound photos to discuss the advisability of verifying that your firearm is absolutely, positively, double-checked empty before cleaning it?

Fuggedaboudit!

.38 Special
June 26, 2009, 11:43 PM
Huh. And I heard the .45 FMJ was a 100% manstopper regardless of where you are hit.

Could the internet have steered me wrong?

mokin
June 26, 2009, 11:48 PM
Glad to know that you still walking. Thank you for keeping us all on our toes and reminding us that it can happen and we need to stay safe.

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:48 PM
that's what I'm saying! Granted it was a superficial wound, but If this was a .380 or something and I was feeling this good that'd be one thing...it still feels weird that I took a .45 and have what feels like a burn to show for it! Just goes to show placement is everything. An inch or few either way it ciould've been far more disastrous.

22LRFan
June 26, 2009, 11:52 PM
So much for the "stopping power" of the .45 ACP. I'm so sorry I couldn't resist.

I'm glad to see this incident didn't end up worse. You're brave for posting your example for the benefit of others. Thank you.

Oyeboten
June 26, 2009, 11:52 PM
Those darned 'Glocks'..!


Glad you're okay!


Yup...a good reminder to us all, on always observing the essential protocols of Safe Handling...


Be pedantic and Methodical even...


Like a Pilot's "CheckList" for pre-flight...it pays!

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:53 PM
If anything, I'm now attached at the hip to the .45 Caliber round for sentimental value alone! haha.

jcwit
June 26, 2009, 11:55 PM
Thanks for sharing, if just one of us learns or takes heed from your misfortune it was worth it. Glad your OK.

AcceptableUserName
June 26, 2009, 11:59 PM
For sure. It could've so easily been so much worse. I'm actually very very lucky. There's not many places or ways in the human body you can take a bullet without sustaining serious damage.

Mike J
June 27, 2009, 12:04 AM
Thank You for sharing this-helping the rest of us avoid complacency. I'm glad you are still with us to post.

hanno
June 27, 2009, 12:16 AM
Thanks and glad you are okay.

duckman007
June 27, 2009, 12:37 AM
Back about 12 years ago, I responded to a house where a gentleman was cleaning his .357 revolver. He too thought that it was unloaded. The gun discharged and he was hit in the upper thigh/groin area and the bullet hit an artery. I got there in time basically to watch him bleed out in front of his wife. Fortunately, the kids were asleep and didn't see their dad die. He was a very nice, well loved family man that just made one mistake and it cost him his life. I will never forget watching him past and the horror on his wife's face.

So personally, while I know we've never met, I'm glad this went the other way and you're still with us.

Riss
June 27, 2009, 12:55 AM
Glad to see that it was not worse than it was. At a recent Glock school the course of unloading a Glock for field stripping was gone over it detail. Remove mag, eject any round that may be in chamber, lock slide to rear, double check be looking and feeling for a mag and a round in the chamber. Drop the slide and dry fire with a 2 hand hold in a safe direction. That would be preferably at a kevlar back stop. Then pull the slide back and remove it using the little takedown thingys.

Enginetech88
June 27, 2009, 01:16 AM
Thanks for posting and giving us a real life reminder. That takes guts. Glad your okay!! Josh

jad0110
June 27, 2009, 01:29 AM
Huh. And I heard the .45 FMJ was a 100% manstopper regardless of where you are hit.

Could the internet have steered me wrong?

Wow, you mean the .45 didn't rip off your leg and throw you 10 feet through the air? :D

Seriously though, glad you are okay. Thank you for posting, this is a reminder to us all not to get complacent.

barnetmill
June 27, 2009, 01:29 AM
Whether concerned for our own hides or sickened by the prospect of harming an innocent bystander this serves as a reminder for us all that the rule "Treat all guns as if they were loaded" is there for a reason.
Basic rule is do not point a firearm at your person and pull the trigger. Always point it at a safe backstop. There are certain exceptions to this rule, that do not apply to the most of the readers of this forum. But in anycase a firearm that is not pointed at anyone can not shoot someone regardless of other circumstances.

kargo27
June 27, 2009, 01:51 AM
Thank You for sharing this-helping the rest of us avoid complacency. I'm glad you are still with us to post.
+1, glad you're ok and thanks for the post.

ljnowell
June 27, 2009, 02:08 AM
Good post. I dotn think you will get the ridicule that some have for this, you are obviously humbled from the experience and have learned from it.

Glad you are OK, it could have been a lot worse man!

2RCO
June 27, 2009, 02:09 AM
Ouch, I am glad you are doing OK. We all get complacent/stupid from time to time. This is a good teaching story for the Always loaded rule. I bet you'll never forget.

I am also glad you had the courage to share the story even knowing the beating you would get from THR members.

cubesmoothie
June 27, 2009, 02:18 AM
That is a BIG hole in your leg. Definitely opened my eyes to treating firearms as always loaded no matter what. Visual learner.

Smith
June 27, 2009, 02:20 AM
Thanks for sharing your story. Good thing that didn't hit your femur of femoral artery or something. Glad to hear your ok!

rondog
June 27, 2009, 02:43 AM
Me too, very glad you're OK! But I'm sure the pain and soreness will come around to see ya eventually.

BTW, where did the bullet end up?

Dr. Fresh
June 27, 2009, 02:55 AM
Sales of your recent rap album should go up now.
:D


Seriously though, glad you're OK.

coloradokevin
June 27, 2009, 02:57 AM
This thread should serve as a good reminder to follow the four firearm safety rules! Thanks for being humble enough to admit your mistake to everyone else... you may have unwittingly saved someone's life in the future!

A sgt in my department had a similar incident a number of years back, and told me the details of his incident. He was at our department's range, and was in his vehicle with his Glock. If I recall correctly, he was attempting to clean the weapon, and had a mental lapse as he unloaded the gun (racking the slide, then removing the magazine, thereby leaving a round in the chamber). Anyway, he points the gun at his thigh and pulls the trigger.

In his case, he probably would have died right there, except for the fact that another officer heard the shot and administered first-aid while radioing for an ambulance. His shot was a direct hit, and I believe severed an artery and struck bone. To this day the officer has problems as a result of this incident. He is also humble enough to talk about it, and may have saved someone's life by doing so.

JCisHe
June 27, 2009, 03:04 AM
Wow, what a story huh? I'm a little nervous about Glocks. I recently purchased one and I really didn't connect the "pull trigger then..." with the possible outcome of such a stupid tear down procedure.

I'm going to remember this and be very careful with all of my weapons but that one in particular. ... it I don't sell it first.

I'd like to tell a story myself...

A few weeks back my Grandfather and his wife were moving from their home to an apartment (they are losing their home) and with that comes the "cheap mover" which happened to be the neighborhood alcoholic. The first thing my Grandfather wanted moved was his weapons. Well, before I got there, they had moved them all, like 15 of them. As we were packing I noticed that all of the cases seemed to still be in the home. I also noted that my Grandfather had a handgun (he's a long gun kind of guy) and asked my Grandmother who told me, "it's all taken care of." So... we finished moving, I packed all of the ammo, cases, cleaning kits, etc... up and we went over to the apartment.

Guess what I find at the apartment? My Grandfathers beretta shotgun, trap guns, deer rifle, pristine m1 garand; sitting on the floor, without cases, covered by a blanket. I immediately went and got the cases and talked with my Grandmother insisting that she tell me immediately where the handgun was and how they transported those weapons. This is the story...

"we loaded them all in the truck wrapped up in the blanket and drove them over here and the handgun is in the old radio." Well, they set the guns on the center council of their s-10 and drove them over and we brought the old radio in the trailer we were using to move with, magazine full, one in the chamber, and one extra magazine in the holster. To make matters worse as I angrily started to wipe down my Grandfathers weapons with oil (because they had finger prints all over them) I checked the chamber... boink! there goes a shotgun shell, the next weapon, BOINK - there goes a shotgun shell. 3 OF THE SHOTGUNS WERE LOADED AS WAS HIS GARAND!

I shuttered as I realized that all of those weapons were first transported that way and that they were now facing towards the neighbors apartment as I was wiping them down. The friendly mover fellow simply laughed and said, "I didn't think to check the chambers" while earlier telling me how much of a hunter he is...

Needless to say the experience scared the daylights out of me and made me think twice of EVER trusting anyone to handle firearms around me.

I'm so very glad you are ok Sir. The Lord has truly blessed you that you have another day. Please don't let it pass without putting your trust in Jesus. We never know when it could be our last.

Regards,
Beau

NELSONs02
June 27, 2009, 03:14 AM
Whoa that pic is pretty nasty, to be honest though I was expecting much worse. Glad you're ok.

Stories like this always remind of my grandfather, he was shot through both of his thighs by a German just because he was out in the street retrieving his bike. Grandma Van Herwynen tells the story like it was yesterday.

Sunray
June 27, 2009, 03:24 AM
Putz! No offense, but negligence is negligence. Doesn't matter what firearm.
Glad you're ok.
"...I'm a little nervous about Glocks..." They're no different than any other handgun. Mag out and check. It isn't rocket science.

onlymeself
June 27, 2009, 03:24 AM
Glad you're still with us. Lesson learned for me. I, for one, will take your advice. And I've shown it to my boys, so they can see that accidents can happen to people that have been handleing guns for a long time.
Like my mom always told me, if you save one person from this or worse it was worth it.

rrruuunnn
June 27, 2009, 03:34 AM
I think that this happens more than people want to admit. The cop in our CHL said that he used to carry a 1911 until accidental discharge.

starkadder
June 27, 2009, 03:52 AM
I have had the misfortune to have witnessed two accidental- self inflicted GSW's. One was my older brother who was trying to get an old German poket pistol to chamber a round with the with the muzzle on his thigh and when it finally did he had his finger on the trigger and POW!!!
Luckily the .32 ACP went into his thigh at an angle, ricoched off of his femur and exited just above his knee and into the wall, with out doing any real dammage other than the hole in his leg.
The other involed a friend of a friend playing " cowboy" with a pistol grip pump shotgun, the outcome was dissasterous, and something that I will never forget.
PLEASE EVERYONE, CHECK THAT WEAPON!!!!!!!!
Not a lesson that anyone should ever have to learn, thanks for sharing this and I am glad that you are OK, I know that it was hard to do but if it prevents one accident it it's worth all of the pride in the world.


This is tihs! It's not something else, it's this![/

[I]Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

toivo
June 27, 2009, 05:38 AM
SOMEBODY not only loaded it but chambered a round. Who? You or the friend you're storing it for? Who hands a loaded gun to a friend to store?

That's what I was wondering. If your friend passed the gun along to you in that condition, he bears some of the responsibility.

One was my older brother who was trying to get an old German poket pistol to chamber a round with the with the muzzle on his thigh and when it finally did he had his finger on the trigger and POW!!!

I'm sorry, but I'll never understand why people want to put their fingers on the trigger when they're not ready to fire the gun. That's what triggers are for--don't touch it if you're not ready for the POW!!! And even if you're using snap caps for dry-fire practice, etc., keep it in a safe direction only, please. No dry-firing at thigh, head, TV set, neighbor's window, etc.

Maybe it's a bad habit that comes from too much playing with toy guns as a kid? And then failing to grow up?

Sorry, I don't mean to be smug. I know that a ND could happen to me too if I'm not vigilant. That's why these threads are important. Thanks for having the courage to post it.

blackops
June 27, 2009, 05:55 AM
Glad to hear your ok. It's good for firearms owners to not only hear, but actual get a visual on mishaps like this. Great reminders for us all. Again good to here your ok. Someone decided it wasn't your time yet!

AcceptableUserName
June 27, 2009, 06:03 AM
I don't want this thread to make anyone afraid of Glocks. They are such fine guns, in fact I've never seen a serious defect/malfunction with one and I have a decent amount of experience with them. It happened because I was careless. Be it a single shot NEF shotgun or a Glock pistol, the same rules apply. The Bullet lodged in the dirt/skidded off I assume. It went in and out of my leg and to my left. I didn't stick around to look for it though lol. In all honesty it wasn't much pain or anything. I mean it hurt yeah, but more of a mid-range sting and burn than anything. I was fully able to walk, completely calm and lucid, just a little worried because there is the Femoral artery there. In fact, it happened so fast I didn't realize it for a few seconds what had happened.

Does anyone think any damage could've come to the gun? I mean I had it all the way through the takedown process. The trigger pull that disengages the slide from the frame was the one that caused the discharge...my friend went over the gun and said it looked and acted just fine when he cleaned it today....should he not fire it or should it be okay?

HK G3
June 27, 2009, 06:23 AM
Whenever I handle my HK45, the first thing I do is run my finger along the round indicator, drop the mag, rack the slide, then point the gun at the ground at an angle, and use the decocking lever. I then run my finger along the round indicator again to see if it's jutting out and whether or not anything is potentially chambered.

That's my ritual, and everytime I handle the gun, I do this. It's now just become ingrained with my behaviors.

Glad to see you're okay - at least now you'll have an interesting story to tell. It's just so crucial to remember the 4 Rules no matter what you are doing or where you are!

Kind of Blued
June 27, 2009, 06:24 AM
Thanks for sharing this with us, and I'm glad that you are able to do so.

Blakenzy
June 27, 2009, 06:44 AM
I don't mean to be insensitive, but do you think you can get a pair of calipers and try to see what the diameter of the actual hole is? I bet it's a lot less than .452...

BigGuy52
June 27, 2009, 09:50 AM
Your post is a good reminder to all of us, make sure that your gun is unloaded.

Sometimes it's easy to be complacent, but the handling of all firearms must be cleared and double checked making sure the gun is empty.

I'm glad that your injury wasn't life threatening, and that you have learned a very important lesson, plus it took a lot of courage on your behalf to share this mishap.

jad0110
June 27, 2009, 10:39 AM
Wow, what a story huh? I'm a little nervous about Glocks. I recently purchased one and I really didn't connect the "pull trigger then..." with the possible outcome of such a stupid tear down procedure.

Well, as others have pointed out, the best safety is between your ears. If that safety is faulty, it doesn't matter much what kind of gun it is, your're an ND waiting for a time/place to happen.

Granted, the Glock and XD designs (pulling the trigger as part of the disassembly process) are a little less forgiving of a stupid mistake in the takedown process - they just are. I'm not bashing them, though it is interesting to note that, IIRC, the XDm does not require a trigger pull during disassembly (unlike the XD). It's just something to keep in mind and be aware of. I guy on THR posted his story a few years back involving an XD (don't remember the caliber). He got sloppy while disassembly the XD, pointed the gun at his leg and pulled the trigger. He was alright, but he re-learned the 4 rules the hard way.

But as someone else said, I would be more concerned about drilling the "drop mag then check chamber" procedure to the point of it being a natural reflex.

Another example is revolvers with recessed chambers (most rimfires and older S&W 357 Mags) - visually looking through the side of the cylinder for protruding case heads will NOT work too well on a revolver with recessed chambers - so one should always be in the habit of swinging out the cylinder on a DA revolver or checking each chamber individually on a SA REGARDLESS of the particular design.

Shung
June 27, 2009, 10:56 AM
glad you are OK..!

I have a glock 19C myself... but , I'd never pull the trigger of a gun resting on my leg, glock, Colt, Beretta, or whatever other "unloaded" gun... but one might forget or something, and nobody can claim he will never make any mistake..

Thx for sharing-

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 11:10 AM
Glad you walked away from that one.

This just reinforces my desire for a dedicated gun workbench - with a mounted light for checking the bore clear and a built-in safe direction (tall bucket of sand) for taking down striker-fired pistols.

For those complaining about the Glock takedown method - you have to disengage the striker somehow, and other methods to disengage the striker/slide from the trigger/frame still don't remove the need for a cleared gun. The solution I use is to not allow live ammo at the cleaning station. Every gun is checked before getting there, and as a prerequisite for stripping.

feedthehogs
June 27, 2009, 11:15 AM
Some folks have short memories and attention spans.

If people can leave their kids in hot cars to die, they certainly can forget to handle guns properly.

This just reinforces my desire for a dedicated gun workbench - with a mounted light for checking the bore clear and a built-in safe direction (tall bucket of sand) for taking down striker-fired pistols.


guaranteed that someone will find a way to shoot themselves any way.

I don't know of any gun that dropping the mag and then pulling the slide back with the muzzle facing away from you won't let you 100% determine that a gun is unloaded.

Going to unecessary steps in the name of safety is just fear of the gun and the lack of knowledge on how it operates.

Kwanger
June 27, 2009, 11:29 AM
Thanks for posting; timely reminder for us all, and glad you are OK. Don't feel bad about it; In my time I've seen several SOF types have an ND - as much as we are all absolutely certain it will never happen to us...we are all ultimately human. Reminders like this keep us reminded and focussed - thanks.

wvshooter
June 27, 2009, 11:43 AM
Really sorry this happened to you. Hopefully this will be a graphic reminder of why we need to be careful. We can all be distracted but that's not permissible around any handgun. Thanks for posting your boo boo.

federalfarmer
June 27, 2009, 12:29 PM
Now for the fun part ...... what tatoo are you getting above/below/around the 'hole'? :evil:

Shung
June 27, 2009, 12:38 PM
"never again" ;)

.38 Special
June 27, 2009, 12:44 PM
I'm not a Glock fan in any way, but the take-away from the story is that if you point a loaded gun at yourself and pull the trigger, you're going to get shot. In that context, the make of gun is utterly irrelevant.

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 12:49 PM
I don't know of any gun that dropping the mag and then pulling the slide back with the muzzle facing away from you won't let you 100% determine that a gun is unloaded.So taking precautions is stupid?
I don't get it, I post about a better place to do firearms maintenance without clutter and distractions, and you feel the need to inform us all of your superiority?
I'm sure AcceptableUserName knew your magic method of checking a gun clear, but obviously he didn't use it, didn't have/use a safe direction to release the striker, and now gets to clean up bloodstains ... and be damn lucky he's around to clean them up.
Perhaps a designated firearms station would help to reinforce good habits ... but what would I know about that? After all I just evaluate human performance professionally.

Double Naught Spy
June 27, 2009, 01:11 PM
If your friend passed the gun along to you in that condition, he bears some of the responsibility.

Given that the gun did not discharge during the transition from one person to another, the "friend" really doesn't really have any responsibility here. The gun was taken under control and voluntarily manipulated in an unsafe manner.

If I hand you a CRKT knife and you take it and then handle it in an unsafe manner resulting in an injury to you from the sharp blade, would I be to blame? You should expect the blade to be sharp. You should expect the gun to be loaded.

By the OP's own statement, he failed to clear the gun properly before pulling the trigger. How can you then put blame on somebody else?

Dave P
June 27, 2009, 01:29 PM
"The trigger pull that disengages the slide from the frame was the one that caused the discharge.."

Who in their right mind would design a pistol this way???

SWDoc
June 27, 2009, 01:38 PM
Thanks for the reminder. It is hard to put yourself out for criticism like you did, but your story has served all the rest of us on this forum. I appreciate it.

Go forth and sin no more.

Steve

1911Tuner
June 27, 2009, 01:53 PM
Lucky lucky lucky. It's happened to many people, regardless of the level of experience.
One split second of mindless action due to repetition or distraction is all it takes.

Rule 2. Don't point the gun at anything that you're not willing to see destroyed. That includes parts of your own body.

This might be a good time to repeat one that I've posted several times:

I hear people referring to their pistol as "My new toy" or "My little friend."

I take exception to such talk. It's not a toy...and it damn sure ain't your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and should be regarded as hostile the instant that you pick it up.

LegalAlien
June 27, 2009, 01:54 PM
Glad to hear it all turned out OK. It takes courage to man up to a bad mistake.

Note to self. NEVER invest in a firearm that requires booger hook insertion onto bang switch in order to field strip said accident waiting to happen.

SASS#23149
June 27, 2009, 02:03 PM
When I check an auto for 'empty', I cycle the slide several times,not just once.Doing this prolly wold have alerted you to the fact the gun was loaded.Yes,I also poke fingers in the well and chamber as I visually check them.

Very glad you weren't more seriously injured !

A good lesson for us all...check,double check,TRIPLE check,and then assume it's loaded.

clemsonu0219
June 27, 2009, 02:04 PM
and I neglected to remember/check for a magazine inside

Sorry my friend, I'm really glad you are ok. That had to hurt.

BP Hunter
June 27, 2009, 02:04 PM
Glad you're OK. What did wife had to say? Will she still let you keep your guns?

twinsdad
June 27, 2009, 02:08 PM
I am glad it is not worse than it is. You made a mistake but are man enough to admit it. I wish you a speedy recoverey.

Floppy_D
June 27, 2009, 02:09 PM
Glad to hear that you're okay, and thanks for having the balls to share this very visual safety reminder.

rondog
June 27, 2009, 02:34 PM
FWIW - on another gun forum a couple years ago, there was a similar thread by a guy that had accidentally fired a .45 Gold Dot hollowpoint through his leg. He also came out OK IIRC, but the damage was a lot worse.

toivo
June 27, 2009, 02:36 PM
Given that the gun did not discharge during the transition from one person to another, then "friend" really doesn't really have any responsibility here. They gun was taken under control and voluntarily manipulated in an unsafe manner.

I agree that the bulk of the responsibility lies on the hand that pulled the trigger without clearing the chamber first. He's the one that had the last opportunity to avoid the disaster. That said, I would never give anyone a pistol and say "Here, would you store this for me?" without clearing it myself first. At the very least, I would tell the person what condition the pistol was in. After that, it's his responsibility totally.

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 03:00 PM
I would never give anyone a pistol and say "Here, would you store this for me?" without clearing it myself first.
Hell, I'd probably hand it over with the slide locked open and the mag out ... and do the pre-storage cleaning myself.

SShearer
June 27, 2009, 03:23 PM
First off, I'm glad your OK. I always read threads like this to remind me of what can happen, when the rules become somthing you know but don't always follow, so thanks for sharing it with us and I wish you a speedy recovery.




PS It's a good thing that bullet did'nt come out of a 1911 it would have blown your leg clean off. :D

rainbowbob
June 27, 2009, 03:45 PM
A good lesson for us all...check,double check,TRIPLE check,and then assume it's loaded.

This point has been debated endlessly, but I contend that at the point you have checked, double checked, and triple checked - you may safely point the firearm in directions you would not otherwise (e.g., visually inspecting the bore).

mercedesrules
June 27, 2009, 03:46 PM
Dang, that like three in a week for THR members.

I know! I wish everyone would quit wasting ammo; it's scarce enough as it is!

jhco
June 27, 2009, 03:57 PM
ouch

toivo
June 27, 2009, 04:00 PM
This point has been debated endlessly, but I contend that at the point you have checked, double checked, and triple checked - you may safely point the firearm in directions you would not otherwise (e.g., visually inspecting the bore).

Even then, I'd feel better with an expiration date on that window of opportunity, like if it's been more than a minute since you checked, or if you've put the pistol down since checking, you check it again before looking down the bore.

WinchesterAA
June 27, 2009, 04:22 PM
@.38 special - My friend, let us not consider what was said. Let us consider what was shown.


That's a pretty nasty hole there... Through the heart? Dead as hell. Through the head? Dead as hell. Lungs? Prolly gunna die buddy. COM shots would most certainly devastate the target.

Would you agree, OP? Is the 230gr FMJ round in the caliber of .45ACP a potent little bugger or what?

Rockwell1
June 27, 2009, 04:41 PM
You never pick up a gun with out clearing it period.

Is that somehow difficult to understand?

Truthseeker
June 27, 2009, 04:45 PM
Glad you are OK. Took a lot of guts to post that. Thanks.

loneviking
June 27, 2009, 04:47 PM
To the OP, thanks for posting and you are one very lucky guy. There's a site called 'negligentdischarge.com' where you might want to post your experience. This site has a couple of stories of .45 rounds going AD, and the results were not pretty. Just remember to always:

Drop the mag first,

Then rack the slide

Then visually check.

I'll bet you never forget to do this again! :eek:

THE MACHINIST
June 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
yeah.....its gonna hurt later......trust me....

Gamera
June 27, 2009, 04:53 PM
wow, glad you're ok!

bigfatdave
June 27, 2009, 04:59 PM
Even then, I'd feel better with an expiration date on that window of opportunity, like if it's been more than a minute since you checked, or if you've put the pistol down since checking, you check it again before looking down the bore.That is what a bore light or fiber-optic gadget is for ... something in the chamber that is blatantly NOT ammunition.
I got a little "J" shaped fiber-optic bore inspection gadget that you just shine a light at. It was under a dollar at the LGS, and I'll be picking upi a few more and adding one to the range box, one to the portable pistol cases, one in the rifle case, etc etc.

mec
June 27, 2009, 05:07 PM
wonderful post. dont' feel too stupid. we play with dangerous things and there is a certain amount of risk implicit. It would be nice if the human machine was perfectable and did not do stuff like this but it would also be nice if a frog had wings so that he wouldn't bump his butt every time he hoppedl

AcceptableUserName
June 27, 2009, 05:07 PM
"@.38 special - My friend, let us not consider what was said. Let us consider what was shown.


That's a pretty nasty hole there... Through the heart? Dead as hell. Through the head? Dead as hell. Lungs? Prolly gunna die buddy. COM shots would most certainly devastate the target.

Would you agree, OP? Is the 230gr FMJ round in the caliber of .45ACP a potent little bugger or what? "

I would most definitely agree, and not just with the vitals. The way I got hit was VERY lucky. It's one of the very very few places or ways it could've happened that I wouldn't at the very least be in ICU right now instead of on the computer at home. Just because I'm walking around feeling good didn't shake my faith in the .45 as personal pistol defense round of choice one bit. If the round had been a hollow point, I'd probably be dead....even with the super lucky way I took it. I'm a bigger guy and if I had to guess right now I'd say that 230 gr FMJ RN would've stopped me silly if it hit in the abdomen or higher.

rainbowbob
June 27, 2009, 05:11 PM
I contend that at the point you have checked, double checked, and triple checked - you may safely point the firearm in directions you would not otherwise (e.g., visually inspecting the bore).

Even then, I'd feel better with an expiration date on that window of opportunity.

Absolutely. That "window of opportunity" expires for me at the point when any event transpires to interrupt that direct connection between triple-checking and handling the firearm (e.g., a phone call, a bathroom break, etc.)

Dr. Fresh
June 27, 2009, 05:15 PM
You never pick up a gun with out clearing it period.

Is that somehow difficult to understand?

I pick up my firearms without clearing them all the time.

AKElroy
June 27, 2009, 05:29 PM
"The gun is always loaded, The gun is always loaded, The gun is always loaded..."

Glad you're okay.

+1 +1; and, if I might add, the gun is always loaded. About 10 years ago I had an AD with a G27. That night, we had company over & my sister in law wanted to see the gun as she was considering what to buy. Like second nature, I dropped out the mag & racked the slide clearing the chamber, handed her the gun, slide locked back. She handled the gun & passed it back, I slapped in the mag, dropped the slide, and put the "unloaded" gun on top of the fridge. After she left, we cleaned up & everyone went to bed. It was probably 2am, I couldn't sleep, so I got up to raid the fridge. Seeing the gun, I grabbed it, sat down & decided to give it a wipe down & oil. I dropped the mag, pointed at the lamp next to me & pulled the trigger to take it down. 135 gr CorBon vaporized a really big lamp. Plaster from the lamp fogged the room, and the flash blinded me. I could not hear, and all I could make out was the wife running downstairs, screaming, assuming I had offed myself. I figured a meteor had fallen through the roof, because NO WAY was that gun loaded. I KNEW it was empty because I had just cleared the gun to show it to company. Since it was 2am, I was too sleepy & familiar with what I was doing to not follow our sacred four laws. They are ALWAYS loaded. Glad you are OK, bud.

rainbowbob
June 27, 2009, 05:57 PM
I figured a meteor had fallen through the roof, because NO WAY was that gun loaded.

I don't understand...where did that CorBon come from?

MacTech
June 27, 2009, 06:04 PM
Ouch, OP, glad you're okay and the damage wasn't any worse....

so far, I've been lucky, no ND's in my 30+ years of shooting, my philosophy/M.O. is as soon as the firearm is out of my hands, the next time I pick it up I *MUST* clear it to verify it's status, even if I only put it down a second ago, the moment my hands leave the weapon, it's assumed that it's loaded, and I clear it the next time I pick it up

toivo
June 27, 2009, 06:18 PM
I don't understand...where did that CorBon come from?

It came from the mag that he slapped in before putting the gun on top of the fridge. When he dropped the slide, it stripped the top round from the mag and shoved it into the chamber, just like it's supposed to.

george29
June 27, 2009, 06:22 PM
Rules are in place because we are human and tend to ______ (forget/take shortcuts/become too familiar, fill in your own answer to the blank).

I think that your sharing with us is very brave and shows that you are willing to take the ridicule (if any) in order to help others learn a lesson.

Semi auto weapons, DAO, DAK, DA/SA & SA all have one thing in common, most people, even those not specifically trained, carry loaded or cocked & locked. The trigger of most semi auto's are easier to pull when in condition III than most factory shipped revolvers. It's easier to forget there is a loaded chamber with a semi auto than with a revolver. Last, even when the mag is removed and the slide is racked to remove the loaded round, it is imperative to actually look and feel with the finger that the chamber is unloaded.

I personally carried my MK III in Condition 1 even when on duty, I had learned the Israeli method of racking the slide as it comes out of the holster.

Stolichnaya is a great pain reliever. Especially if kept in the freezer.

.38 Special
June 27, 2009, 06:24 PM
@.38 special - My friend, let us not consider what was said. Let us consider what was shown.


That's a pretty nasty hole there... Through the heart? Dead as hell. Through the head? Dead as hell. Lungs? Prolly gunna die buddy. COM shots would most certainly devastate the target.

Would you agree, OP? Is the 230gr FMJ round in the caliber of .45ACP a potent little bugger or what?

I dunno, mate. Looks like a pretty neat little hole to me. Just like the hole left by 9mm FMJ or .38 Special 158 RNL, but maybe a tenth of an inch larger. Whoop-de-doo.

JHP wouldn't have left a neat little hole, in any of the above calibers. The OP is lucky, IMO, that he is/was a believer in FMJ. Had he not been, he would likely not be posting, and maybe not breathing.

So in addition to the take-away about not pointing loaded guns at yourself and pulling the trigger, I suppose we can take away the idea that if you do pointed a loaded gun at yourself and pull the trigger, you should be sure to use hardball. :p

CountGlockula
June 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
Chicks dig scars.

Looks like you just got grazed.

"Treat all firearms like they're loaded".

george29
June 27, 2009, 06:30 PM
The OP is lucky, IMO, that he is/was a believer in FMJ. Had he not been, he would likely not be posting, and maybe not breathing.
The wound in question is what is very close to being a flesh wound although he did damage to his muscle too. The same bullet path with anything other than FMJ would probably have left more tearing but I doubt that it would have been life threatening, just more painful and more tissue damage.
Personally, I have no problem with FMJ except with calibers less than 9mm as my POA is the thorax.

AKElroy
June 27, 2009, 06:38 PM
I don't understand...where did that CorBon come from?

I loaded it when I replaced the mag & dropped the slide after showing the sister in law; something that did not enter my sleep deprived head @ 2am.

Agent Smith
June 27, 2009, 08:55 PM
Consider yourself lucky that it was a .45 ACP FMJ and not a 5.56 projectile in the thigh (although both may result in death). See link below for a fellow shot with the latter:

VIEWER DISCRETION IS STRONGLY ADVISED
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31666
VIEWER DISCRETION IS STRONGLY ADVISED


I'm glad it wasn't more serious. Jesus was watching over you.

Boba Fett
June 27, 2009, 10:52 PM
This point has been debated endlessly, but I contend that at the point you have checked, double checked, and triple checked - you may safely point the firearm in directions you would not otherwise (e.g., visually inspecting the bore).

Agreed, so long as once the firearm leaves your hands, you check it again when it enters your hands.

It cannot be something like, "I checked it, put it down for five minutes and it never left my sight, and I picked it up again without checking it."

That relies on your memory and as a fellow THR member found out a week ago when he shot his AK through his neighbors' apartment wall, memory is weak.


I personally am a fan of the chamber safety flags:
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=110564
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_084000300_1.jpg

TheFallGuy
June 28, 2009, 01:34 AM
That totally sucks. I hope make a full and speedy recovery. Those open chamber safety flags look cool, but then I can't run my cable lock through the receiver.

Double Naught Spy
June 28, 2009, 01:46 AM
I personally am a fan of the chamber safety flags:

Yes, but you can't take down a Glock with one of these in place.

Don't get me wrong, I like them as well, but they have their limitations.

Boba Fett
June 28, 2009, 02:20 AM
I personally am a fan of the chamber safety flags:

Yes, but you can't take down a Glock with one of these in place.

Don't get me wrong, I like them as well, but they have their limitations.


Not sure you can take down any firearm with them in place. And as the OP proved, you can't really take down a Glock with a round in place either...

But as indicated by the quote in my post, the safety flags are for when you've cleared the firearm already and want to help ensure you know it is cleared. i.e., not relying on memory to keep you safe.

So yes, they are limited to letting people know a cleared firearm does not have a round chambered (could still be rounds in the mag) and anyone who picks up the firearm can immediately know this.

doc2rn
June 28, 2009, 03:41 AM
PPBD piss poor by design
any weapon system that you need to pull the trigger to break down is an accident waiting to happen
I own a G32 in .357 sig and I take it outside to clean every time, also clean where no ammo is in the room/area!

stickhauler
June 28, 2009, 04:17 AM
For playing around with those damned Glocks! I bet that's gonna leave a mark! My advice, thank that guardian angel who was sitting on your shoulder, and don't beat yourself up too much, anyone who says they NEVER screwed up with a firearm in any way is likely lying to you anyway.

But just to rub salt in the wound, I bet you'll clear that the next time won't you?
Thank God that was the extent of your screw-up, and I hope you feel better soon.

rmodel65
June 28, 2009, 04:47 AM
ive shot myself, broke the femur not fun. but now i have a cool IM Nail and a story :P
it was a 9mm WWB hollow point
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/rmodel65/gunshot.jpg

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 05:08 AM
I respect your humbleness for posting this thread. We all make mistakes and a gun is not always loaded physically so logically accidental/negligent discharges will always be bound to happen. This thread serves as another reality check as to the consequences of not checking that damn chamber every time.

I own a Taurus PT99 and will admit that I once mistakenly attempted to take the slide down with a chambered round in it. I was extremely disappointed in myself, and vow to let it never happen again. If I had owned a Glock or similar gun that required a trigger pull to take it down that day, I would of most certainly of shot myself. Regardless, no excuses:o


And P.S. rmodel65 that picture looks like a crackless ass with one leg. lmao

rmodel65
June 28, 2009, 05:52 AM
haha well im a big guy :P

donzi
June 28, 2009, 12:57 PM
Wow glad you are ok.

Cant say I have ever been shot and I would like to keep it that way.

.38 Special
June 28, 2009, 02:14 PM
The wound in question is what is very close to being a flesh wound although he did damage to his muscle too. The same bullet path with anything other than FMJ would probably have left more tearing but I doubt that it would have been life threatening, just more painful and more tissue damage.

JHP typically leaves a permanent wound channel about twice as large as FMJ. This could easily have damaged an artery that was left intact by the FMJ. At the least, the OP would not have had a brief trip to the ER and the next day wake up "feeling fine" if he had loaded with JHP, I suspect.

Personally, I have no problem with FMJ except with calibers less than 9mm as my POA is the thorax.

As I always say on the "caliber war" threads, ask a hunter what happens when you shoot an animal through the lungs with a solid. The answer is "not much". Pinhole entry and exit wounds (just like the OP's) and minimal bleeding (also just like the OP).

At any rate, it doesn't bother me if a fellow wants to use JHP to defend himself. I just wonder why people would intentionally choose the least effective of the available options.

kyo
June 28, 2009, 04:08 PM
Out of curiosity of research being the fact that I shoot a 45, can you tell me how big the entrace/exit holes were? I am sure the hospital told you something.
Glad to know you didn't hit the artery in your leg and bled out. Remember that Darwin is always watching with an award to all gun owners.
Ok enough teasing, glad you are ok, glad you are responsible enough to post your mistakes and own them.

I still don't get how hard it is to rack a slide every time you pick up a gun. It should be like watching out for your zipper after you go to the bathroom.

rainbowbob
June 28, 2009, 04:10 PM
If I had owned a Glock or similar gun that required a trigger pull to take it down that day, I would of most certainly of shot myself.

Only if for some unfathomable reason you were pointing the muzzle at some part of yourself.

Pointed in a safe direction - even that kind of failure need not result in anything more serious than a loud noise.

PT1911
June 28, 2009, 04:13 PM
And P.S. rmodel65 that picture looks like a crackless ass with one leg. lmao



HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

indie
June 28, 2009, 04:53 PM
^ best post ever

1911Tuner
June 28, 2009, 07:05 PM
PPBD piss poor by design
any weapon system that you need to pull the trigger to break down is an accident waiting to happen

Not the fault of the design. Anyone who pulls the trigger without expecting and intending to fire the gun...without first clearing the gun...is a a tragedy waiting for an opportunity. This, no matter if it's a Glock or a double-action revolver.

Don't blame the machine for the human's error. The gun did what it was designed to do.

cleetus03
June 28, 2009, 07:14 PM
I never knew you had to pull the trigger to break down a double action revolver. Not trying to be a smart ass but the Glock design does not lend itself to allow a user to get away with any mistakes period. And if I had one I would hope to learn that quickly or suffer the consequences.

-v-
June 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
The OP is obviously lying, since no one ever survives being shot by a .45! Must of been a .40 or a 9mm. :D

Glad you're ok though.

musick
June 28, 2009, 09:05 PM
Thanks for posting and giving us a real life reminder. That takes guts. Glad your okay!! Josh

This thread should serve as a good reminder to follow the four firearm safety rules! Thanks for being humble enough to admit your mistake to everyone else...

so long as once the firearm leaves your hands, you check it again when it enters your hands. It cannot be something like, "I checked it, put it down for five minutes and it never left my sight, and I picked it up again without checking it.

The above sums up my thoughts quite well. Thanks for your post OP.

I am notorious amongst my friends for being that guy who checks, rechecks and checks again my guns, even when I just checked them 2 minutes ago.

I own a Glock (14+ years) and have no plans on selling it. It is no more or less dangerous than any other pistol IMO.

Odd Job
June 28, 2009, 09:50 PM
Out of curiosity of research being the fact that I shoot a 45, can you tell me how big the entrace/exit holes were? I am sure the hospital told you something.

The size of the entrance wound is not significant and cannot be used to determine the calibre of the projectile in most instances. Whether it is a JHP or FMJ, the entrance wound will look unremarkable (unless the projectile arrived deformed or tumbling, or if it was a contact wound).
There was one wound that looked unusual: an NGA Sentry round hit a guy in the thigh and punched a very clean hole in the skin. But that projectile has a fall-away plastic cap and has no round ogive, it is a sharp rim with a recessed wadcutter and post. Unfortunately I never saw the wound, ony the X-ray. One of the trauma surgeons described it to me in detail on the phone but I couldn't attend to get photographs at that time.

JHP typically leaves a permanent wound channel about twice as large as FMJ. This could easily have damaged an artery that was left intact by the FMJ. At the least, the OP would not have had a brief trip to the ER and the next day wake up "feeling fine" if he had loaded with JHP, I suspect.


Not necessarily. A trajectory that misses vitals is a miss nonetheless. Even an FMJ can tumble and fragment. If I saw the wound and heard about the general condition of the original poster as described, I would not be able to tell you whether that was from a JHP or FMJ. That wound looks like any one of the thousands I have seen.

Where you start getting into differences of a forensic nature is when you get entrance wound only and can recognise the projectile type on X-ray or upon recovery in theatre, or when the projectile is recovered in the clothing or brought to the hospital with the patient, or even brought in afterwards as a matter of interest.

rondog
June 28, 2009, 11:06 PM
Is it starting to hurt yet?

dom1104
June 29, 2009, 12:47 AM
I think I learned 3 things

1. People make mistakes.

2. Another reason not to own the worlds ugliest pistol. I was not aware the takedown requires a trigger pull, sounds REALLY stupid to me.

3. 45 fmj is not very impressive at point blank ranges into soft flesh.

ok 4 things.

There are only a FEW people on this board who have EVER had to fire their gun in self defense, but there are multiple people in this thread who have shot themselves. Sounds like we are FAR more likely to harm OURSELVES than to protect our family or person from aggression.

Food for thought. Safety first.

AKElroy
June 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
There are only a FEW people on this board who have EVER had to fire their gun in self defense, but there are multiple people in this thread who have shot themselves. Sounds like we are FAR more likely to harm OURSELVES than to protect our family or person from aggression.

Hmmmm.....As I have posted, I have had an AD, although at least pointing the gun in a safe direction managed to still be in my half asleep mind at the time. I have also drawn a weapon to prevent my car being jacked w/ my wife & baby in the backseat; thankfully no shots fired. I understand your point, but I am not comfortable with this oft-used Brady quote.

AcceptableUserName
June 29, 2009, 01:39 AM
it's not really hurting no, but it itches like crazy! I appreciate everyone's feedback. It was a hell of a learning lesson, believe me. The amount of stupidity and embarrassment I felt was enough punishment for carelessness alone, not to mention the thought of what COULD have happened.

rmodel65
June 29, 2009, 01:48 AM
like a broken femur in my case :P

Boba Fett
June 29, 2009, 03:44 AM
2. Another reason not to own the worlds ugliest pistol. I was not aware the takedown requires a trigger pull, sounds REALLY stupid to me.

I'd like to preface my coming remarks by saying that I am not a fan of Glocks at all. I hate the way they look, the way they shoot, and how they feel in my hand. No offense to Glock lovers, this is simply personal preference for me.

Also, I am not singling out the above quoted poster as a number of others have said similar things.


Now, that said,

Why are people knocking Glock because you have to pull the trigger for take down. To my knowledge, this isn't an uncommon thing. I mean, I have to do that with my Mosin Nagant (albeit with the bolt fully open). And I believe the SW40GVE also requires the trigger to be pulled.

And I'm sure there are a number of others.

The main point is:

DON'T PULL THE DARN TRIGGER BEFORE CLEARING THE FIREARM.

I really don't see how difficult that is. I would not exclude ownership of a particular firearm simply because I was afraid I wouldn't follow the safety rules. If you are afraid of that, then you should exclude all firearms from your ownership.

The OP has graciously demonstrated why we should always follow the rules...he just did so with a Glock. However, he could have just as easily blown a hole in his leg with a STI 1911 because he didn't check it.

*ALERT - entering sarcasm zone*
And those STI 1911s have really light triggers....ooohhh darn those 1911s!!! Their triggers are way way too light! Just another reason not to own them. I'd never own a firearm that had a trigger pull of less than 20lbs. I mean, I might mistakenly pull the trigger without checking the gun first!
*sarcasm zone cleared* :evil:


I have a Sig P220. It has no true safety (other than the decocker). If the trigger is pulled, it goes off. Period. This is not a design flaw nor is it a safety hazard.

Here's my secret:
1) I don't pull the trigger
2) I check the firearm thoroughly to ensure I've cleared it, then I pull the trigger
3) I pull the trigger because I want the gun to go off and I am shooting at something



So I'm all for bashing firearms for their legitimate flaws or personal preference factors, but I just don't see how pulling the trigger on a loaded firearm you didn't check is the firearm's fault. :scrutiny:

rainbowbob
June 29, 2009, 03:21 PM
I just don't see how pulling the trigger on a loaded firearm you didn't check is the firearm's fault.

We have winner...give that man a cigar!

Dark Skies
June 29, 2009, 03:32 PM
Ouch. I bet that made you squeak. Still at least you didn't put one in your man pods - that would really suck.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 03:43 PM
To the OP- Im just glad you are ok, thats the most important thing here. I myself have made several mistakes when it comes to weapons (luckily, my mistakes only resulted in scratches or the blemishing of various weapon finishes).

Regardless, bad things can and do happen at times. You live, make mistakes, hopefully learn from them, and then go on about your business.

Again, Im glad you are ok.


I think I learned 3 things

1. People make mistakes.

2. Another reason not to own the worlds ugliest pistol. I was not aware the takedown requires a trigger pull, sounds REALLY stupid to me.

3. 45 fmj is not very impressive at point blank ranges into soft flesh.

My take, in sequence:

#1. I agree...it can happen (even to the most experienced)

#2. The Springfield XD, as an example, also requires a trigger pull during field stripping. Not really an issue to me...After all, one should never begin the field stripping process without making absolutely sure the weapon is unloaded in the first place. Hence, this could have happened with almost any weapon.

#3. This was an otherwise superficial wound and therefore, hardly indicative of whether or not .45 FMJ ammo is effective, IMHO. I mean, should we expect half his thigh to be missing? :rolleyes: Now, had this been a shotgun for instance, Im not sure if things would have worked out as well as they (thankfully) did.

SlamFire1
June 29, 2009, 03:46 PM
Glad you are OK.

I ain't throwing no bricks, because by the grace of God, and not any natural intelligence of mine, my accidental discharges all went downrange.

Nate1778
June 29, 2009, 03:56 PM
Dude, I don't know if this has been stated yet, but it isn't a good idea to shoot yourself. I would recommend against doing it again.......

Buckhannon
June 29, 2009, 04:00 PM
It is NOT the Glocks fault...Any weapon could have done the same thing. I am sure that the person who wrote this post is very careful and has been around weapons for years. Like all of us ,once in a while we get in a hurry or skip a step in safety. Thank God you and everyone else in your home is okay. Speaking for myself, I feel that this could happen to anyone at any given time.

rainbowbob
June 29, 2009, 04:13 PM
...by the grace of God, and not any natural intelligence of mine, my accidental discharges all went downrange.

Was it the Grace of God - or your natural (or learned and practiced) intelligence that caused you to ALWAYS point the muzzle down-range before you put your finger on the trigger?

I believe in God's Grace.

I also believe God helps those who help themselves.

FAITHFUL SUPPLICANT: "Dear God - I'm out of work, my wife needs an operation, and my family is suffering - please let me win the lottery!"

GOD: "I'll see what I can do...but can you at least buy a ticket?"

EAJ
June 29, 2009, 04:33 PM
Wow, glad to hear that you're going to be ok. You were fortunate; could have been a very different outcome.

ljnowell
June 29, 2009, 04:56 PM
I never knew you had to pull the trigger to break down a double action revolver. Not trying to be a smart ass but the Glock design does not lend itself to allow a user to get away with any mistakes period. And if I had one I would hope to learn that quickly or suffer the consequences.

It sounds like you arent the type of person that should own a glock then. No firearm allows you security if you break the 4 rules.

cleetus03
June 29, 2009, 06:11 PM
Well no sht ljnowell. I don't have a glock & because of it's utter simplicity I don't plain on owning one.

No firearm allows you security if you break the 4 rules.



HMMMMMMMMM, Are you serious ljnowell? I think I can immediately prove you wrong in an experiment that will take place for the next few minutes.



Experiment Goal:
I will be seeking to destroy my monitor right now with my chambered Taurus PT99 AF which is sighted directly at it.

Experiment hypothesis:
Since "No firearm allows you security if you break the 4 rules." as Dr. ljnowell has taught us in the previous post, I am confident I will indeed destroy my monitor, because I mean I know it's loaded and I am about to break every one of the rules as I attempt to shoot it.

Experiment Results:
For some reason no matter how how many times I attempt to pull the trigger back while aiming at my monitor, the darn pistol won't go bang or hell click for the matter. :confused:

Experiment Conclusion:
Oh wait a minute, I see the problem. The darn manual safety switch was flipped up. I guess I was locked & cocked but failed to unlock? So I should probably take note in the future that safety up on my loaded gun = no bang while safety down = BANG BANG.

Final Notes:
It should be noted that individuals who own a manual safety on their loaded Taurus PT99 AF & plan on successfully placing a bullet on their intended target by pulling the trigger back should make sure the safety switch is not up. This renders the gun inoperable and will continue to do so unless the safety switch is pressed down. It can be concluded that "there are indeed firearms that allow you security if you break the 4 rules"




P.S. I Sincerely apologize for taking this thread off topic:o

Toml
June 29, 2009, 06:19 PM
I am surprised that the wound does not appear to be sutured. ?

BlayGlock
June 29, 2009, 06:35 PM
You mean you shot yourself in the leg with a .45 and didnt die instantly?!? I thought .45 was a definate kill :neener:

Joking aside, I am glad that you are okay all said and done.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 07:39 PM
Not trying to be a smart ass but the Glock design does not lend itself to allow a user to get away with any mistakes period. And if I had one I would hope to learn that quickly or suffer the consequences.

All it really takes is paying heed to the "RTFM" principal. Design should have nothing to do with it. Besides, weapons generally do not allow for many mistakes anyway.

Glocks, XD's, Kahrs (unless Im mistaken), etc., all require a trigger pull during the field stripping process. Sure, they may not be as "accident proof" as other weapons but, lets be frank here, this extra step cannot be held responsible for accidents.

AcceptableUserName
June 29, 2009, 07:41 PM
I was told stitching or suturing is not common practice for GSW's

Boba Fett
June 29, 2009, 08:10 PM
Posted by cleetus03:

No firearm allows you security if you break the 4 rules.
HMMMMMMMMM, Are you serious ljnowell? I think I can immediately prove you wrong in an experiment that will take place for the next few minutes.



Experiment Goal:
I will be seeking to destroy my monitor right now with my chambered Taurus PT99 AF which is sighted directly at it.

Experiment hypothesis:
Since "No firearm allows you security if you break the 4 rules." as Dr. ljnowell has taught us in the previous post, I am confident I will indeed destroy my monitor, because I mean I know it's loaded and I am about to break every one of the rules as I attempt to shoot it.

Experiment Results:
For some reason no matter how how many times I attempt to pull the trigger back while aiming at my monitor, the darn pistol won't go bang or hell click for the matter.

Experiment Conclusion:
Oh wait a minute, I see the problem. The darn manual safety switch was flipped up. I guess I was locked & cocked but failed to unlock? So I should probably take note in the future that safety up on my loaded gun = no bang while safety down = BANG BANG.

Final Notes:
It should be noted that individuals who own a manual safety on their loaded Taurus PT99 AF & plan on successfully placing a bullet on their intended target by pulling the trigger back should make sure the safety switch is not up. This renders the gun inoperable and will continue to do so unless the safety switch is pressed down. It can be concluded that "there are indeed firearms that allow you security if you break the 4 rules"


So following your logic, you would point a loaded firearm at someone and pull the trigger, relying completely on the manual safety? You would not clear the firearm first.

Am I the only one who thinks this is insane? :banghead:


http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/cletus-title-card-e13601.jpg

cleetus03
June 29, 2009, 08:19 PM
It would be impolite and taboo but not insane,



I'll give ya kudos, Boba Fett if you can invalidate my conclusion which was "there are indeed firearms that allow you security if you break the 4 rules"


P.S. good job on the cletus pic, was wondering if the below image was your Native Habitat as well?
http://krautboy.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/starwars31.jpg

Boba Fett
June 29, 2009, 08:39 PM
Posted by Cleetus03:
It would be impolite and taboo but not insane, I'll give ya kudos, Boba Fett if you can invalidate my conclusion which was

"there are indeed firearms that allow you security if you break the 4 rules"


The reason the four rules are THE rules is because they keep us safe from the unforeseeable.

Cleetus03, in your particular case, the safety could have failed and blown your monitor to pieces, gone through the wall and killed someone.

But, follow the four rules and it wont happen.

No firearm allows you security if you break the four rules. You may think you are safe, but it is only a false sense of security. That is why the rules exist: to give you real safety.

cleetus03
June 29, 2009, 08:45 PM
We agree to disagree, I don't want to argue. This has nothing to do with the OP or the thread and I apologize for even posting my original opinions.

My experiment was a smart ass yet valid rebuttal to post #141 by ljnowell, nothing more nothing less.

.38 Special
June 29, 2009, 09:02 PM
If you don't ever point a gun at yourself and pull the trigger, then you won't ever shoot yourself.

I still don't like Glocks, but the above applies regardless of make.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 09:03 PM
I apologize for even posting my original opinions.

Dont apologize...whether or not your opinions are agreed with does not and should not matter. You are entitled to your opinions.

grampster
June 29, 2009, 09:12 PM
I'll join the choir here in thanking you, sir, for another timely reminder to alway handle our firearms very carefuly.

If you are not a member of the NRA yet, for your penance and in grateful thanks that this situation did not cost you a limb, life or loved one, you need to become a member and also support NRA-ILA for at least a year.:)

Odd Job
June 29, 2009, 09:13 PM
I was told stitching or suturing is not common practice for GSW's

Correct.
I saw many like that in Johannesburg and for perforating injuries with no neuro-vascular involvement the outcome was usually wipe, dress and go with antibiotics.

I advocate X-raying all gunshot wounds unless the wound track can be visually inspected and projectile fragments excluded that way.

On another note, there is a fairly common kind of ND seen in Johannesburg, that I like to call the trouser shot. It is from unsafe handling or other misadventure during mexican carry. There are quite a few men out there with singed scrotal sacks and perforated thighs because of near contact injuries while the gun is stuffed down the front of the trousers.
In second place is the foot or shin shot (either the shooter's or a bystander's) while drawing or reholstering a handgun.
Some of those guys should have had some lessons in the safe handling of firearms, particulary in the proper carrying, drawing and reholstering of their weapon!

dycab
June 29, 2009, 09:53 PM
First off... Glad you're ok! I, after teaching the 4 rules with plain old BB guns for the past few years (like the "wax on wax off" Karate Kid theory, engraving the 4 rules into their very young souls) just a couple weeks ago took my 11 and 14 year old shooting at a range for the very first time with a .22 rifle and let them shoot my .32 just to get them started.

I have always stressed the rules and they did very well. (Made me proud!) I showed some of this very important post to my boys, and I think it hit home that it CAN happen.

I very much appreciate your bravery to post this as it really is an educational tool for all of us, and again, I'm glad you're ok.

Kevin

Ike Arumba
June 30, 2009, 02:29 AM
Well, maybe this is the place to relate a story as I recall it, even though I heard it second or third hand, a bit over 40 years ago. Mr. W. was the father of one of my school classmates. He went hunting with some friends, and was a ways behind them getting back to the truck. As they waited for him, they heard a bang, and figured he must have spotted a deer. They walked back to see what was up, and found him slumped over a fence. It seems that he had slipped while climbing over the fence, and his rifle went off, blasting him in the heart. R.I.P. I guess that one involved at least two serious mistakes.

rmodel65
June 30, 2009, 02:41 AM
I am surprised that the wound does not appear to be sutured. ?



no you dont close off the wound they clean it and stop the bleeding and leave it alone. they also dont remove the bullet unless it near an artery or in a joint.

AcceptableUserName
June 30, 2009, 03:06 AM
rmodel, you still have a slug floating aroun d in there? and how long did it take to heal? I bet it was PAINFUL.

Big Top Gt
June 30, 2009, 09:14 AM
Way to go Cheddar Bob. :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but I'm seriously glad you're okay. :)

RockyTop
June 30, 2009, 02:05 PM
I don't care about the bloody wound in the pic, it's the ugly, hairy, disgusting guy leg that I wish was blocked out. I wouldn't want to see a female leg with a wound, but that hairy leg is just revolting.


+1 lol

larry_minn
June 30, 2009, 05:09 PM
Sorry to hear about your injury. Glad you were not hurt worse.
I only read first two pages.. Just felt I had to comment on the anti Glock comments.

It is true that a Glock WILL go Bang when its loaded and you pull the trigger. So maybe if he had a lesser gun that would fail to fire he MIGHT not have gotten injured.
Often a "dry" fire IS the final check to assure the gun IS UNLOADED. I have shot a number of matches that after you finish your course of fire the person running you thru will ask/order you "mag" (remove the magazine) "chamber" ( show clear, some varient) where you lock the slide and tilt gun (keeping it pointed downrange) so he can visually see there is no bullets in chamber/ready to go in) "slide" for you to lower slide closed and then "hammer" for you to DRY FIRE toward target. (in case both of you made multiple mistakes)
People have been shooting themselves cleaning guns forever. Even with cap and ball guns. The gun must ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction when you pull the trigger. IF the striker was kept under pressure/loaded rd in chamber/slide removed and striker "tripped" the danger could be much worse.

youngda9
June 30, 2009, 06:57 PM
merely a flesh wound

Lesson learned the easy way, could have been much much worse. Thanks for sharing.

rmodel65
July 1, 2009, 10:36 PM
rmodel, you still have a slug floating aroun d in there? and how long did it take to heal? I bet it was PAINFUL.

yes it is still in there, ive seen it on xray the WWB hollow point fragged pretty good after it hit the femur so its spread out a little

i had the staples removed(from the im nail) about 2 weeks after the surgery and the GSW was healed over around the same time


my leg still isnt 100% working on it though riding my bicycle and walking etc, still a little numb in my foot(did a little nerve damage)

FlyinBryan
July 1, 2009, 10:48 PM
im just glad your head and chest are ok. poking holes in those is probably tougher.

also be glad it wasnt a barnes, hydrashok, frangible, or golden sabre. that might have been worse

f4t9r
July 1, 2009, 11:09 PM
Glad you are ok.

Matrix187
July 1, 2009, 11:10 PM
About a half a year ago I had my Ruger Mk III .22 pistol in my living room. I was sitting on the couch and watching TV with my dad, and my dog was right at my feet. I thought the gun was empty, cocked the gun, and when the bolt slammed forward the gun slam fired and the bullet hit a couple of inches next to my dogs head into the floor. Terrifying experience to say the least, and it has made me abide by the safety rules 100% of the time ever since. I feel lucky. BTW, we all make mistakes as said before and I'm glad you're okay overall.

ZO6Vettever
July 2, 2009, 12:04 AM
Glad you're OK buddy. Thanks for the post and the pic is an eye opener. Most of us kill paper and don't relate holes in paper to flesh. I try to never change my routine but mistakes can happen! OUCH!

rainbowbob
July 2, 2009, 05:36 AM
...when the bolt slammed forward the gun slam fired...

I don't own a semi. What causes a slam-fire?

larry_minn
July 2, 2009, 09:35 AM
I don't own a semi. What causes a slam-fire?

Most often the person holding the gun "and pulling the trigger". While it CAN happen and some guns do have (more) of a problem with this..... Often its used as a excuse for the person holding the guns actually pulling the trigger. I.E. "My glock just went off" that often the person will finally admit "well MAYBE I did have my finger RESTING on the trigger"

Some guns that are known for it being (more) possible. Some sub machine guns. Esp open bolt. The fireing pin was actually machined into bolt face. The SKS (IF you did not clean grease/gunk out of firing pin channel) Actually many guns if some grit/rust/gunk is holding fireing pin forward. Some older shotguns, 1911s where the owner has taped down the grip safety (or pinned it) and then filed down half cock/stoned the crap out of trigger for a 2 oz trigger pull. etc.
Basicly its rather rare for a true slam fire in a quality firearm that has had basic care taken care of (and no drastic consumer "mods" for ultra light trigger pull)
Most people (myself included) have hand chambered tens of thousands of live rds thru semi autos. (function check of mag after cleaning/ slight mod to mag/chamber, replacement of ejector,extractor,new mags springs,etc.

To be fair to poster who said he had one. The .22lr would seem to be a logical "candidate" for slam fire. The primer is all the way around. So a small piece of grit would (likely) catch in lower curve of bolt. So when slide is dropped it would put pressure on primer/causing primer to spark.

This is why (the one in a million chance) you follow "at least" the 4 rules.

Edit to fix typo. and add

I should mention that free floating firing pins/sensetive primers can make it more possible.
Also that you WILL break the 4 main rules if you carry a gun. I do point gun at myself. :( To reholster or while walking if I look I would say the muzzle does "cover" part of my leg/foot at times. I have used shoulder rig. The draw winds up sweeping my left arm (or being rather conveluted IMO)
The important thing is never break more then ONE rule at a time.

rainbowbob
July 2, 2009, 01:55 PM
Matrix: So how about it? Was your finger anywhere near the trigger when the firearm went off? I'm not trying to needle - we're all just hoping to learn from each other - since as you said, "...we all make mistakes...".

When I finally acquire a semi - I want to avoid a slam-fire - or any other unintentional discharge.

Thanks to all for sharing potentially embarrasing details. Learning how screw-ups happen will hopefully help the rest of us avoid them.

ROBBY.1911
July 2, 2009, 02:42 PM
you were the end result. someone handed you a loaded gun. have a word with that guy about bringing loaded guns into your house. everyone feels your pain. i just had an AD with a 1911 because i'm so confident that i threw caution to the wind. i perforated a TABLE leg and the wall separating me from my neighbor. get well, all the way around.

Mr. 22
July 2, 2009, 04:40 PM
WOW... Good thread!

I applaud your bravery and admitting it. Yes, if ANYONE has been around guns for ANY length of time they are 100% going to have a story or a close call (even a far call). And, if not, you are either lying, it has slipped your mind, or it will happen tomorrow. It's going to happen! Even if you are pulling the trigger and it goes off unexpectedly, live round or not - you are there! You just became a member of the club.

This might be a long one, you may want to grab a cup of coffee.

In my youth all of my hunting buddies were (are) the safest bunch to be around. Living where I do (Idaho) you practically grew up with a rifle, pistol, or shotgun in your hand. We never thought anything about going out after school (we brought our guns to school - the horror!) and doing some hunting, plinking, etc. Yes, we were all brought up around the golden rules and they were strictly enforced. We were about 14 when we were 1st allowed to drive (common here, farmers and everything). So here were, all of these 14 year olds and up, out doing God knows what and where. We NEVER even had a close call till one year we came back from some pheasant hunting, we were dead tired and we all crashed on the lawn at one of my friends houses. It was actually a ranch with a pasture backing up to the yard. We ranged from about 16-18 yo. Well, one of 'em thought he would really be funny because Bessie, the old milk cow started to act up in the pasture by the fence. He yells, "I'll get her", and grabs his 12 ga and clicks one off... It was not empty - it was loaded. Well, needless to say... we all miss Bessie. Talk about all hell breaking loose! That was the 1st time.

Another, same situation, different guy (probably the safest guy of us all), come back from hunting, we all go into his house and sit down with his Dad. We're all talking and my friend is cleaning his shotgun, the muzzle is pointing straight up and BANG! His Father didn't say a word... got up and said, "You boys all fix that roof... ya hear"? His mother came in madder than a wet hen (that is the only phrase I could come up with right now),..., boy did we get an earful! I learned how to fix a roof that day.

Next time: Much older (shall I say adults?), one of our huntin' buddies turned into a cop. He was cleaning his S&W revolver in his apartment (we were all poor then - nothings changed!) and it went bang and shot a hole in his ceiling and the upstairs neighbors floor. Quite a ruckus..., no one hurt! Don't ask me how his revolver went off accidentally..., I don't recall - it does happen even with revolvers - and from a professional.

Then there was me, fast forward to about a year ago. We were out in the local gunshop. This is more than a 'gunshop' this place is awesome! Anything from peashooters to 5 figure dangerous game double rifles, etc. One of my old buddies was looking for a pistol to buy and there were two of us with him to help make up his mind. The place was packed with people 2-3 deep. I spotted a freestyle pistol on the back shelf and asked one of the guys I know there to take a look at it. I am seriously into competitive shooting and this was a serious competition pistol and the salesman knew nothing about it (I hate that... if I was behind the counter I would know something about everything in there. In a lull - your educating yourself - sorry, I digress). I had to point out exactly which one I was referring to. He hands it to me and it is one of those compressed air pistols - He didn't know anything about it - let alone how to check it, this isn't a 'normal' pistol! Beautiful! I was looking it over very closely and turned it over in my hand and I must have brushed the trigger. This was set at about 1 ounce! If you have never experienced a 1 ounce trigger... you are in for a real surprise. Well, like I mentioned this was an air pistol and someone had cocked it with no round in the barrel. So, when it went off it sounded like a real .22 had gone off. I was obeying the golden rules and it was pointed right over and to the side of the sales clerks shoulder. His eyes were about the size of silver dollars and he was looking down at his chest expecting to see a gaping hole (as gaping as a .22 could be - I'd say pretty big if you are the gapee!). Of course... no harm, no problem. I was looking at the salesman and then I immediately became aware that the entire place was quiet as a church. A second before this you could hardly hear yourself think! Everyone was staring at me and I said, "Shees... you could hear a pin drop in here!" The owner was not pleased!

We are the safest people that I know and I am very picky about who I choose to be in the field holding a gun with. These are some of the best... I would include myself in there and I am sure they would as well.

AD's are going to happen... it's just a matter of time. If all of the safety checks are in place, they will simply be a well learned lesson and nothing else!

Good luck out there everyone!

WHEW... I think I'm done. Thanx for hanging in there.

Matrix187
July 2, 2009, 04:45 PM
I didn't clean the gun enough and the pistol was full of residue. From now on I clean the Ruger MkIII more often and it's worked so far. But, I'm definitely way more careful overall even though I clean it more often.

larry_minn
July 2, 2009, 04:57 PM
[Mr. 22 Is that your idea of a safe group? I detest folks who point guns at animals/people and dry fire them for a joke. (and have nothing to do with them if they don't change RFN) It actually sounds like they grew up with guns but were never taught safety.
By "golden rules" I assume you ment "do unto others...." Not "Treat every firearm as if it was loaded, Never point a......." right?
I wonder how long it took your buddy to find his gun cleaning supplies AFTER he shot thru ceiling?

Edit to add.
I did not mention your incident. You said you had muzzle off to side/did not intend to hit trigger, was unsure how to check if gun was unloaded.etc.
Which is not even close to picking up a gun and pointing it at cow/person and pulling trigger. (even if you did check) I had a "joke" played on me long ago. A 12 guage single shot. The guy yelled at me/pointed it at @15' and pulled trigger. He didn't understand why I got so upset. Today I would call the Police. I still have a instinctive dislike whenever I run into him.
Regards the Cop buddy. The "I was cleaning my gun and it went off" is the catch all when folks are playing with thier gun. (and it just goes off) The OP was honest and admitted his mistake. Think of it. HOW do you have a revolver go off when you are going to clean it? I know of one case personally where the local Police had to HUNT for the off duty Officers gun cleaning supplies after he "died cleaning his gun" at home after his wife left him. One Officer claimed he was ready to drive home and get his cleaning supplies before they found it.

I guess I have shot with too many folks who do think safety. Heck they call me on stuff. I actually prefer a "hot" range. We had one guy who was not safe. after being warned he was told he was no longer welcome.

Mr. 22
July 2, 2009, 05:08 PM
"...I was obeying the golden rules and it was pointed right over and to the side of the sales clerks shoulder."

Gee... I guess by saying the Golden Rules - I meant, "The Rules of Gun Safety". They should be the "Golden Rules", as I would want to be treated the same as I do around others with guns. I will be sure and enunciate and spell out EXACTLY what I mean next time.

The hardest thing we had to do was come up with the material to repair the roof. The gun cleaning kit nor the guns was ever in question. "Never Point a......." you know!

It is not a question of 'if' accidents (being part of the club as mentioned above) are going to happen but when. Like was mentioned above as well.

Grey_Mana
July 2, 2009, 05:18 PM
Glad you're ok.
It's an argument against the 'one in the tube 24x7, any gun not ready to fire is a brick' crowd.

larry_minn
July 2, 2009, 05:52 PM
Glad you're ok.
It's an argument against the 'one in the tube 24x7, any gun not ready to fire is a brick' crowd.

I guess I am really "out of sinc" with current gun owners. It "seems" to me the message they get is not what I and (I think) the OP got. I.E. He made a mistake (or two) He did NOT check to make sure it was unloaded, and he pointed it at a UNSAFE direction (his leg) and pulled the trigger.
If you keep guns unloaded (and treat them as if they were unloaded without checking) odds are you WILL have a hole (hopefully) in just a wall/floor/ceiling.
What is the first thing you hear from many folks when they have a ND? "I didn't think it was LOADED"
How many times have I read here (and on other gun forums) where the person THINKS the gun is unloaded so they point it (at the TV, lamp, dog,COW) and pulls the trigger?
When you dry fire you UNLOAD the gun. You UNLOAD the mag (I can bet that if you don't sooner or later you will rack that slide when going to (store/mailbox/check on noise outside) and when you resume you can forget you loaded gun and destroy something.
IF you want to carry chamber empty. Go ahead. You better treat that gun as if it is loaded.
I will call the Police if anyone points a real gun at me and pulls the trigger. I lost my sense of humor long ago.

Oyeboten
July 2, 2009, 05:55 PM
I do a lot of Bird rescue work...inner-city Wild Birds, Pigeons, Doves, Sparrows, Kestrals, various others.

In this, I rouinely confront varieties of BB and Pellet Gun wounds.


Any punctures, in any Species...one does not close or Suture entrnace or exit wounds...rather, these are left open (if optionally having a sanitary Gause or similar dressing on them,) for the wound channel to heal from the inside out, which, once cleaned and free of debris, they tend to do forthrightly.

Bleeding from small Blood Vessels tends to cease anyway on the Body's own regulatory disretion, and, can even cease on it's own when major peripheral Blood Vessels have been perforated or severed.


Usually, in Chest or Thorax wounds, I never find the Pellet...there's an entrance wound only...and, so long as enough velocity was lost perforating the chest wall/ribs/keel/Feather-layers or whatever...the resillience of the impacted internal Organs often was/is able to resist perforaion/laceration, and, the loose Pellet ends up somewhere uninvolved, and remains 'floating' or settled there. Where, assuming sufficient debriding and sluicing are done, the injury can resolve very nicely.


Birds do not have large sections of fleshy areas of the extremities as people do, where uncomplicated Bullet Wounds, or through-and-throughs may occur...so, they do not enjoy the relative luxury of 'flesh' wounds which 'meatier' Species have.


In a healthy person, or Bird, uncomplicated Gunshot (or Pellet ) wounds, of whatever sort, once debrided and sluiced, will heal/resolve very nicely without recourse to systemic Antibiotics, and, even manage fine with no topical Antibiotics, so long as the wound channel is debrided or cleaned and sluiced well with basic antiseptics/salines.


However, one may elect an Antibioic regimen anyway, merely for prudene sake.


Probably, in the old days, inadequate 'sanitary' debriding and flushing/sluicing of uncomplicaed and otherise very survivable gunshot wounds, underlay the development of infection or abcess, 'fever' betokening either, or other complications from the un-removed/un-resolved debris, and Miro-Organisms of the Skin and Clothing carried 'in' to the Wound by the Projectile, which delayed proper healing or could develop into combinations of local, systemic or septisemic problems occasioning the demise of the injured person.

Oyeboten
July 2, 2009, 06:08 PM
Yes...yes...yes...


When wishing to be assured an Automaic is un-Loaded...always, fingers well away from the Trigger...'safe' Pointing...drop/remove the Magazine, and Rack the Slide fully, and visually inspect the Chamber and Magazine Well amply...


If the Arm leaves your Hand for even a moment, for being set down...re-check it again upon picking it back up.

DoubleTapDrew
July 2, 2009, 07:16 PM
It's an argument against the 'one in the tube 24x7, any gun not ready to fire is a brick' crowd.
Or an argument against the "pull the trigger and find out, I'm sure it's empty" crowd.
I think having one in the pipe 24x7, or at least thinking that way is a good way to train you to always always always obey the 4 rules.

The Annoyed Man
July 2, 2009, 08:29 PM
Glad you weren't hurt worse. It reminds me of when I worked in an ER, and a cop friend of mine was brought in with a self inflicted gunshot wound. He was reholstering his revolver while seated in his squad car, when the pistol discharged point blank into the lateral aspect of his his right thigh, exiting on the medial aspect of the same thigh, just above the knee. It was a +P .38 Special, and the bullet continued on toward the firewall, and then ricocheted upwards into the dash, tearing up some of the car's circuits.

Like your wound, it was a through and through flesh wound, didn't injure any major structures except the quadriceps muscle it passed through. However, it did blow leather and cloth fibers from the holster and his trousers into the wound, and he wound up with a pretty good wound infection accompanied by a good fever, and requiring IV antibiotic therapy.

Thanks for the reminder, and I hope you heal rapidly.

Oyeboten
July 2, 2009, 09:21 PM
Hi The Annoyed Mad,


Good name!


Lol...


Simple torn strips of Cotton Cloth, like Bedsheet, boiled for a few minutes, cooled, then brought 'through' on a dulled-end Wire...and copious repititions of simultaneous Saline or 99 cent-a-Bottle 'Peroxide' Lavage while Flossing...would have saved him the fever and infection...


Bet it cost him fifteen grand for what any one of at-one-time 'normal' intellectual/cognative ability and basic Motor Skils, could have done well on and had wrapped up in a half an hour...with a perfect outcome.


Yeeeeeeeesh...

'Hospitals'...


He's lucky they did not give him Hep-C, Staff, Aids or nvCJd while they were at it.


Oye...

larry_minn
July 3, 2009, 03:02 AM
Oyeboten didn't you ever watch RAMBO. You pull a loaded rd. Sprinkle the gunpowder thru the "thru and thru" wound and then ignite the powder. Why waste a bedsheet, Saline or 99 cent-a-Bottle 'Peroxide? And a whole half hr? Shouldn't take you 5 minutes to pull the bullet (less if you use your teeth) and then you have a bullet to bite down on. :) :)

Personally I want to go to a hospital and get some quality meds if I am ever injured like that. AGAIN. I have two holes about 4" below my knee. Roughly 3/8" dia.

PTK
July 3, 2009, 03:36 AM
AcceptableUserName,

I hope you're healing well. :)

Oyeboten
July 3, 2009, 04:28 AM
Hi Lary Minn


Competant 'Medical' attention...is one thing...

'Hospitals', generally, anymore, are another...( having at best, only an incidental association ).


One confuses the two at one's peril.

HiPower70
July 4, 2009, 11:31 AM
I sure am glad my wife doesn't browse these forums or carrying would be hell.

ChCx2744
July 4, 2009, 04:57 PM
Hey I'm glad your okay man, but next time be careful...That doesn't look half as bad as the other guy with the 9mm AD though...Of course that's only one side we see...

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