Does anybody else ever grow weary of all the gun bashing that tends to pop up all over the place on gun forums? In the interest of full disclosure, I might have taken a few shots myself over the years.
Granted, there are some cheap guns that we might hate to see people buy and stake their lives on, but generally, if a person maintains a gun, practices with it, and makes sure it works with the magazines and/or ammo they'll be using in it, they're probably okay.
Maybe it's because I've had long-term, equally steamy love affairs with single action revolvers, the Glock, the 1911, and double action revolvers that makes me more aware of the battles. They are ALL good!
I've seen people who can't shoot ANY of them well, and I've seen people who can shoot all of them well. I know you have, too. I also see folks who think the more expensive gun or the prettier gun just has to be better for the task. If this were the case, Glocks would never leave the display case, of course.
Don't get me wrong; I do love a pretty gun. Thinking seriously about an Ed Brown Kobra Carry as I write this.
Anyway, just some random, redundant thoughts on the subject.
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June 27, 2009, 08:28 AM
I couldn't agree more. Reading gun forums I've learned that there is nothing worse than a Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Winchester, Tikka, Remington, Bushmaster, Glock, ad infinitum. We, who read these forums, supposedly like guns. Its perfectly ok to say you don't like a product because you think it is ugly, has a plastic or mim part, or is too shiny is ridiculous. If you"ve actually known guns to repeatedly fail for these reasons is another matter, but I keep seeing opinion and folklore passed on as solemn fact. And for God's sake, could we please remember that Bill Ruger is dead, and his elitism no longer affects company policy. It is in our interest for these companies to prosper and not be damaged by ill considered word of mouth.
June 27, 2009, 08:41 AM
I concur also...but there will always be those that believe that this or that is the greatest an beats everything hands down......an then there are those that take shots at the other guy's gun just out of fun....If I see someone with what I think is tooooo high of an opinion of a certain gun, then I too am sometimes guilty of the Drama too.
June 27, 2009, 08:49 AM
They are ALL good!
Except Glocks! :neener:
June 27, 2009, 09:06 AM
Granted consumers are willing to bash a manufacturer the minute they have a problem with a product. Any consumer product is subject to breakage. The more moving parts the greater the chance of a malfunction. Remington 1100 shotguns get the crap beat out of them here because they won't stand up to a bird hunt in Argentina where thousands of rounds a day are spent. Is there any one on the planet that doesn't understand that the gas piston and o-ring in these guns are subject to breakage? Any fool that goes into the field without spare gas rings and pistons deserves what they get. Day in and day out the 1100 works just fine here because we don't put these guns to this type of usage here. Said another way, is there any mechanical device that can be driven beyond the limits for which it was designed to be used? Of course not! Any manufacturer is going to experience some rate of failure with their product. Failure rates are designed into products and can be statistically calculated to an extremely fine degree. The key to me, and I think the measure of a product's quality, is the rate of failure and the service provided by the manufacturer to remedy the problem. The truth, as the old saying goes, is out there "somewhere in between the lines". To me it's a matter of degree. When I see a disproportionate number of bashes directed toward a particular manufacturer I take note. When I see multiple first-hand accounts of poor customer service I tend to believe what I see. Added all up there are some manufacturers I avoid because of the volume of poor comments I read. There are some volumes of comments I disregard because it's apparent that people have no understanding of the product or it's intended use. A Remington 1100 is not a Benelli...it was never intended to be. Is Benelli a better design? Sure seems that way. So buy one if that is what you want. When Benellis were selling for $1100 and Remington 1100 for $650, I went with the 1100 and bought myself a handful of gas pistons and o-rings because I understood the limitations of my shotgun. Inconvenient? Sometimes. But then you get what you pay for. If I was going into the $1000+ range I figured I would buy what I really wanted. I love my Beretta Silver Pigeon III!
June 27, 2009, 09:07 AM
I have had my hands on a fair number of guns. Some I've shot better than others and some have been more reliable than others. I have also trained and competed with quite a few folks over the years. This I've learned: No make or model has the corner on reliability or accuracy; there are unreliable Glocks and Sigs and Baers and Wilsons that shoot MOA of barn door; it is always how a gun functions for you with your ammo. As my buddy ChuckB says: YMMV.
June 27, 2009, 09:55 AM
Agreed! While I do enjoy a good spirited discussion about why someone may feel a certain gun is superior for their purpose, when it turns negative I am immediately turned off. It's my belief that people who resort to those tactics are usually not intelligent enough to present their view in a positive manner, or have no real facts to back them up, so they sling BS instead. There area few forums I stopped reading because of this, and most all forums have a few individuals who show their true colors in a post or two.
If you can separate the wheat from the chaff, there is much to be learned on the internet, regardless of the subject matter.
June 27, 2009, 10:17 AM
I agree as well, and I admit to being guilty of some "bashing" on my part. Not that it rises to the level of bashing necessarily - it usually involves my experience (and that of many others on THR) with Taurus 94 revolvers. I usually tell people that like any gun, there are great 94s and lemon 94s. But I usually caution that the percentage of lemon 94s seems to be greater than other makes of 22 double action revolvers.
It's a fine line I try to walk on THR that I figure I've probably crossed from time-to-time.
If you are going to bash a particular, individual gun for being a lemon - that is understandable. Everyone's gotta vent a little;). But what myself (admittidly) and others must be aware of is to try to avoid consigning an entire brand or model line to the rubbish heap when many of the guns in that heap may be just fine.
Another example: I don't shoot Glocks or XDs well at all. I guess my knuckles don't articulate in the right places to get an ideal purchase on them, and I personally don't care for the triggers. But other people may not have these issues; I fully understand that they are excellent guns, so I won't bash anyone for carrying one as long as they know how to use them and understand the responsibility that goes along with owning a gun.
Just my thoughts.
June 27, 2009, 11:40 AM
I'm sick and tired of the gun bashing too. I honestly think that the majority of the people are bashing guns they themselves have never shot. My personal favorites are the P3ATvsLCP, I don't know what all the fuss is about both are great pocket guns. I think people take their brand of guns a little to personally. Good gun advice is appreciated greatly, negative bashing turns me off...and I think sometimes were all guilty of that.
June 27, 2009, 11:41 AM
If everyone had a Rolls Royce....human nature dictates they would argue which color is better.
June 27, 2009, 11:42 AM
But what if my guns really ARE better?
I'm kidding, it certainly has become quite annoying, but I suspect it is unavoidable.
June 27, 2009, 11:43 AM
Most of the gunbashing seems to be a lot less about actual defects and a lot more about chest thumping. Truth is, most any gun will do if we just get used to it and shoot it.
What we really see is someone identifying with the mythology of ownership - 1911, Glock, AR15, Garand. They all have tradeoffs and problem areas, even the best made and perfectly engineered ones - like HK. :D
Once the perspective owner buys into who that owner group is and can get not only comfortable with it, but actually starts receiving adulation and praise for his choice, they wind up as one of the enlightened - or a tool of the dark side. Their personality comes out.
Unfortunately, some times the tools pick our favorite gun. Even worse, they sometimes post on forums - and it seems the more lethality is reduced, the more chest beating you get. There are far more makers and guns resembling a nearly 100 year old military design that was best just decorating an officer's belt - but name it and how the designer had to improve it, then abandoned the concept and went to double stack double action, oh my! All those new owners couldn't be wrong, could they?
Well, at least it shoots. There are worse things to carry, just ask around.
June 27, 2009, 12:01 PM
Gun bashing doesn't bother me. I like a free exchange of ideas as long as there is no hate involved.
June 27, 2009, 12:06 PM
Well of course my gun(s) is/are better then anyone else's... :neener:
Knowing this I simply go on when I run into a "mine's better then your's" thread. Usually the arguments aren't worth the bandwidth. :rolleyes: ;)
June 27, 2009, 12:22 PM
I agree with wvshooter - have a discussion just keep it civil and remember its your opinion.
And by the way guns that I shoot well are the best one's! There seems to be relatively few of them however! :cuss:
June 27, 2009, 12:27 PM
Not only gun bashing can bother me,but also people choice if they want a manual saftey is just as bad.Id even go as far to say people do the same when it comes to carry conditions choices.At least gun bashing can be fact based,and the others opinion based seems to be the rule.
June 27, 2009, 01:07 PM
I guess I have been blessed every thing I have bought from the cheap to the $$$$ has served it purpose and not let me down. Buy what works for you and let the rough side drag.
June 27, 2009, 03:59 PM
I don't have a problem with gun bashing. I'll admit that your gun is probably better than mine. I have simple, reliable, utilitarian guns (e.g., Glock 27, Rem 870). All my guns are basically stock, and they're nothing to brag about. Anyway, I don't get impressed by people bragging about their guns. Shooting skill impresses me. I find the showing off to be entertaining and educational.
June 27, 2009, 04:04 PM
or others (or our firearms) too seriously.
June 27, 2009, 04:28 PM
There are far more makers and guns resembling a nearly 100 year old military design that was best just decorating an officer's belt - but name it and how the designer had to improve it, then abandoned the concept and went to double stack double action, oh my! All those new owners couldn't be wrong, could they?
Gosh, and here I thought you were talking about John Browning, until you got to the double-action part. Were you discussing Walther? No, they went to double-action, single-stack, too.
June 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
I always get a chuckle how somebody states that a friend of their uncles brother who live in Texas says that the local Constable said his wifes brother thinks a certain gun is trash because of what the wifes brothers 17 year old son says he heard at the gun store........:)
June 27, 2009, 04:52 PM
John Browning could rightly be proud of the first 1911 - he designed it and iirc designed the tooling as well. The buyer of that first 1911 had nothing to be proud of, except perhaps for being an 'early adopter'. The rest of us are copycats. ;)
If, instead of paying $ for our guns, we designed, forged and machined them with our own hands in our own shop, then we'd have reason to be proud.
Anyone with $300-$1,500 credit remaining on their Visa can own a fine gun - nothing there to be proud of. But not everyone takes the time and effort to become proficient and therefore rightly proud of their skill with that gun.
June 27, 2009, 06:13 PM
Most irritating single case for me occurred in a gun shop not on a forum. At the time I lived in Iowa and center fire rifle was not allowed there for deer. I was visiting my home state of Michigan and while in the local gun shop happened to mention that I ought to get a Michigan license so I could use my double rifle. Where upon this clown (On the customer side of the counter.) pops up with he wouldn't use a double for deer because a bolt action is so much more accurate. Doubles just aren't accurate enough. Well the double didn't become the queen of rifles because it wasn't accurate enough. I felt like asking him if he hunted deer with a 36 lb bench rest rifle.
BTW: I've seen a 7/8 inch group at 100 yards from a double. Never mind the rifle, just wish I could shoot that good. I wonder if the clown above could hit the side of a barn from inside. Any bets?
June 27, 2009, 06:32 PM
Yeah... I like my guns just fine! Now, I know they aren't the greatest; but every one of them taught me something... Yes, even that stupid Clerke did. Oh, BTW: I have a new found empathy for southpaws who love revolvers:):rolleyes:
You know, it's funny... Nothing teaches you how to get through adversity like adversity... Ahh, who am I kidding, flame away!:fire:
June 27, 2009, 06:40 PM
...don't forget that SIGs rust, 1911's jam, USP's break firing pins, Delta Elites crack their frames, and Berettas break their locking blocks right before putting the back half of the slide through your bridgework.
The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be.
June 27, 2009, 06:42 PM
Internet makes it difficult to read what the poster had in mind, sometimes what sounds like a bashing is something other than. I also think the internet is very raw and people post without thinking. Sometimes I will regret posts that I post, it just goes with the territory, take what you can learn and throw out the rest.
All my guns are in one way or another used as SD so reliability is the key factor for me. I won't trust KT, Taurus, Rossi, Kahr for SD to name a few. Some from personal experience, others from the inordinate amount of bashing these specific tools get. I have learned that a factory 1911 is reliable only with FMJ and that's what my 1911 was loaded with when I owned a 1911. I guess what I am saying is that there is a place for bashing sometimes.
June 27, 2009, 08:28 PM
Ya the gun bashing gets annoying. Im into shotguns so either in real life or on a forum It is always mossy 500/590 v remington 870. And when it comes down to it they are both great guns It is usually personal prefrence. sorry if this has been already made didnt read whole post.
June 27, 2009, 08:35 PM
I always think it seems silly, but then again, I'd shoot any gun and probably like it a little. I wouldn't really want one, but shooting my grandpas Lorcin was pretty fun in its own way.
June 27, 2009, 08:56 PM
My younger cousin used to carry a hi-point .380 for SD. I made fun of his gun and he was a little miffed. He now carries a Glock 23...which some may think is not an improvement. :) Another friend of mine bought his wife a Phoenix 22 to keep in her desk. She works in a camper trailer alone in a rural area for a contractor. I am slowly talking him into Tokarev...he only wants to spend about $200.00.
I recently became more involved into airgunning since I moved to a subdivision. Talk about product snobs and gun bashing...these guys are far worse than the AR V AK and just basic Glock haters crowd! :D They bash one type of airgun for "too" much recoil or plastic trigger. Or their gun is a monster magnum because it generates 28 foot pounds of energy compared to the next guys airgun which only produces 24 foot pounds of energy. I'm trying to keep my mouth shut but some of the arguments on those forums are really funny!
June 27, 2009, 09:21 PM
don't forget that SIGs rust, 1911's jam, USP's break firing pins, Delta Elites crack their frames, and Berettas break their locking blocks right before putting the back half of the slide through your bridgework.
You forgot that Glocks explode, and Taurus' suck because, well, because, their Cheap! EVERYONE knows only Les Bear and Ed Brown are capable of creating weapons that won't dissolve.
June 27, 2009, 09:37 PM
I like to watch the gun bashing. It's like the endless Ford vs Chevy debate.
Of course, I drive a BMW. And shoot a Hammerli. :-D
June 27, 2009, 09:49 PM
I would never bash someone elses gun. I mean, when you own the best you have no reason to talk ill of lesser guns.
June 27, 2009, 09:57 PM
The posts I've given the most credence to on the XD forum are from those that admit that they just like the feel of the gun more. The SA XD line are very popular with some, while many are firmly convinced that the Glocks are the only way to go.
It's kind of like shoes to me. What fits best and gives you the best mileage is probably the best for you, regardless of what the "experts" may say.
Come on, ANY gun, even a .22LR, is better than nothing.
Some have more ft lbs of energy, or more mass, or more penetration than others, some are better for concealed carry, and some are just more comfortable or accurate for the individual user.
If someone really thinks one is better, I pay more attention to those who state why that is their preference, and specify the characteristics that have lead them to that conclusion. I usually give them more credence if they acknowledge that this is their personal preference and others may have different experiences or preferences.
June 27, 2009, 09:59 PM
I truly feel that this discussion is moot. Everyone knows that vintage Smith & Wesson wheelguns are better than everything else.:evil:
June 27, 2009, 10:00 PM
Me, I just love guns. All kinds of guns. Even the ugly ones.
I have sold several guns over the years due to being uncomfortable with them. In the spirit of the thread, I won't name those guns here.
Guns are great fun, and are excellent examples of engineering. If I had the time and the money, I'd have a gun room, not just a safe. :D
June 27, 2009, 10:15 PM
It's all about testosterone... boys :neener:
June 27, 2009, 10:21 PM
Thank you. You have demonstrated my point exactly.
I had a Ruger P85 9mm that I put one box of ammunition through, and I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. Why? I didn't like it, and it didn't fit me.
Was it a "bad" gun? Not at all. It just didn't suit me. It could very well be the "perfect sidearm" for someone else.
There are sidearms that suit me better, and I am naturally more inclined to advocate their purchase and use. Personally, I like the Springfield Armory XD45s. Are they perfect? Heck no. I would like to see more versions offered with the ambidextrous thumb safety. They aren't there yet, and only customer demand will change it.
June 27, 2009, 10:57 PM
Ed Brown Kobra Carry
You know that one really sucks, right?
June 27, 2009, 11:02 PM
My boat is better than your boat BS.
Get over it dudes.
I can kill any of you with a 22, a 12 ga. or an AR.
Happy now? :neener:
Oh, I can also kill you with a steak knife.
(And YOU can do the same to ME as posted above)
SEE MY point >>> yet?
June 27, 2009, 11:54 PM
I'm glad you brought this up. I've thought about it myself. Gunowners tend to recommend and harp on what they happen to own. It makes them feel better and validates their purchase.
Hmmm. That makes me wonder ( I feel another thread coming on that I've never seen before) are there any guns that EVERYBODY likes, that nobody has anything bad to say about ?
June 28, 2009, 12:33 AM
Tamara also has a excellent post : Silly Little Tribes. posted either here on THR or over on TFL
June 28, 2009, 03:41 AM
Whatcha talking about sm? TFL...is there another gun forum I don't know about?
June 28, 2009, 03:42 AM
The firing line.
June 28, 2009, 03:58 AM
Yes boys and girls, before THR, the earth was flat, and we all walked uphill both ways to skool, barefoot in the snow in the middle of July in the hot humid south...
There was TFL.
<enter earth shattering sounds here>
I, as resident rebel , troublemaker, pain in the backside, THR Plankowner ( whom still has not received his green decoder ring btw) and other names of which Art's Grammaw does not allow ...
<Rod Sirling voice>
Have taken the time to provide you with link and a taste of :
Have a seat, set down your drink, and behold the Queen of Snark -the one and only Tamara.
Well, she is going to kick my butt someday anyway if we meet, why not?
Why can some people not objectively discuss their preferences in guns, cars, PC's, whatever, without using the words "sucks", "rules", "junk", "fool", "garbage", "ultimate", and such?
I like my Z3 2.8. It is a neat roadster. Does this mean that it "rules"? That Miatas, SLK's, S2000's, TT Convertibles, and all other roadsters "suck"?
No, it just means I like my car.
It amazes me how many people own a handgun, let's call it a Glocksigberetta. Their sigline says it RULES! All the Deltaswatseals use it! You can run it over with an Abrams and submerge it in magma and its' match-grade trigger will still let it shoot 1" groups while it's full of gravel, because it was perfectly designed by Saint Samuel Gaston Browning-Mauser in nineteen-ought-one.
When you ask these folks if they've shot a Walther1911Browning & Koch, they tell you "Yeah, they suck! I owned one for a week ten years ago and it jammed on 2 of the only 50 rounds I shot through it, so I sold it!".
*i wanted the green decoder ring, remember*
June 28, 2009, 04:19 AM
Cool...thanks guys! Honestly...I did not know about TFL! I only started visiting these forums a little over a year ago.
June 28, 2009, 02:44 PM
I appreciate folks thoughtfully pointing out negatives with particular firearms, especially if those negatives were discovered through extensive experience.
That is quite different from the rantings of fanboys who bash a particular gun because all the guys in the videogame chatroom say it, like, totally sucks, dude.
June 28, 2009, 02:48 PM
I have shot and used in life and death situations every gun that has ever existed ever. I can objectively say which ones suck and which ones have no faults whatsoever. None of em.
For the hard heads: Everything except the last sentence is false.
June 28, 2009, 03:43 PM
Fairly simple: One type gun owner, "I'm IN with the in-crowd type" bashes all other makes and models to justify his one and only choice.. Insecure in the short/long haul about any choices, needs the crowd "feel good" backing.
Read enough bashing threads about this model or that, and forms an opinion based on others views OR has had a problem with a particular type/make gun, and they just can't get enough of "that gun sucks because" post in to justify their actions and knowledge for that person in the mirror.
Had and have one type gun that does work 100%, therefore why take a chance on any other make or model, but fails to appreciate Variety is the spice of life.. for many.
Just an old rut type: Chevy vs Ford
All guns are as good as the total sum of their parts, the gunny who put it together, and the owners input, (including ammo choices) good or bad.
June 28, 2009, 03:54 PM
I feel quite too often think it is supposed to be a shooter right out of the box; guys that is what your local gunsmith is for! I have had crowns redone, sights redone, etc.. even on some new weapon systems.
But I will never buy a new Taurus ever again:neener::what::eek:
Ya need an expert like old fuff to fix them!
June 28, 2009, 04:17 PM
Yes it is simple...and it isn't testosterone! Its the human race! It never ends...all races, religions and philosophies. My God is stronger than yours....Women are no different ...biggest, clearist diamond. Most expensive designer! Men comes down to even wanting the biggest pen..s. Sad but true...but it will never change. Thats why I always laugh when I see the bumper sticker that says ...visualize World peace...LOL....never happen!
I know getting pretty deep for a gun forum...LOL
June 28, 2009, 09:53 PM
If a gun breaks, it's becase it's a machine and all machines will fail eventually. I'd much rather hear about yor experience with various makers customer service. Also, please don't tell me how dumb I am because I like Brand X and you like Brand Y. My wife reminds me of my mental shortcommings at least 10 time a day.
June 29, 2009, 01:32 PM
I think one of the things for me is when people say that a particular gun, cartridge, etc. has no reason to exist. We are all different and have different tastes. Having the variety to give us choices is good. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean someone else also won't like it.
June 29, 2009, 02:01 PM
Does anybody else ever grow weary of all the gun bashing that tends to pop up all over the place on gun forums?
June 29, 2009, 02:03 PM
I think it's fun most of the time.
June 29, 2009, 06:45 PM
G. Glock -
I can't stand Glocks....yuck. But, the mere fact that you love them makes me really happy. I'm enthusiastic that you have found a firearm that makes you enthusiastic.
So, inretrospect, I guess I love Glocks.
July 1, 2009, 04:28 PM
My gun is better. After all, it is mine.
I've met people who have the same gun(s) i have, but they shoot like crap. Chance of them getting a lemon, RARE. I can pick up thier gun and shoot the same pretty pattern that I shot with mine. So better, no. The best comment would be "I'm a better shooter with my gun, than I am with your's."
July 1, 2009, 05:58 PM
There's one thing to like about gunbashers - the firearm they love is almost always destined to become obsolete, commonly because the imaginative, creative designer gets it better in a later model.
Those suffering arrested development then miss out on the better answer to actual tactical needs.
The Browning Hi Power was a better answer for years until an Austrian cabinet hardware mogul came up with a new design, in molded polymer. Meanwhile a German sewing machine maker got a nice start and came out with their truly unique designs.
Nothing wrong with liking old stuff, people own more horses now as pets than in 1911. Of course, nobody congests the freeway with them because they can't handle modern demands.
Inspect any armory, and single shot single stack auto's are scarce for a reason. Just don't point that out to a fanboy. Like Chevy owners, they celebrate the concept they can buy all sorts of high tech bandaids to improve the performance that the basic design left out.
It's practically the basis of the gun industry.
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