Pacific NW Outing


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Ratdog68
June 28, 2009, 04:53 PM
I was invited along for an overnight outing with a couple of my shooting friends. Kermit is the one teaching me how to make longbows, and his buddy Ron was leading the way since he knows the area more than the other two of us.

Our trip overlooks Lake Cle Elum... sure beats spending the weekend in the city !! :what:

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/NiceView002.jpg

The locals seemed friendly enough.... hmmm? Is this gal hittin' on me? I wouldn't mind hittin' on her later this fall !!

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Doe001.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Doe003.jpg

Ron and Kermit had gone up Friday morning and had spent a fair part of the day shooting modern toys before I got there. Kermit has a new Ruger single six .22/.22WM and a Ruger .44Mag. Note the gunbelt/cross draw holster he's wearing... he made that one (which I've posted pix of). Ron had brought along a pair of old, original Colt SAA gems... a blued .38Special and a nickel plated .45 LongColt. Those were VERY sweet toys, all of 'em.

I met 'em in the afternoon, after getting off work for the day... it's about a 100 mile trek from my place to get there. I brought along a couple of the revolvers, just to bring along to show 'em. I haven't acquired any .454 round ball yet. I also brought along my T/C Patriot pistol and the T/C Cherokee carbine... both in .45 Cal.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/HolyBlack.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/HolyBlackPistols.jpg

Well... load er up became the battle cry.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Loaderup.jpg

FINALLY !!! I'm getting a chance to break in a couple of my members of the holy black !! First... the Patriot !! I'm gonna be likin' shootin' this little baby ! I loaded it up with 25 gr. of 777 in fff, pillow ticking patches soaked in T/C bore butter and .433 ball. #11 CCI caps. It perfomed flawlessly with this combo.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/TCPatriot.jpg

Ron started grinning when he got to shoot it...

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Ron002.jpg

Kermit's decided that he wants one now too. Another hooked !! :evil:

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Kermit001.jpg

We went two rounds each with the Cherokee... it felt great to Kermit and I, but Ron got poked in the cheek with the stock each time and he wasn't too interested in any more of that one...

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/TCCherokee001.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Kermit002.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/Ron003.jpg

Now... did I screw up? Right where I have my left thumb... after Ron's second shot... I noticed that the stock has developed a crack ! I loaded it, once again... with 777 in fff, with 75 grains of powder... the same patches and the same .433 ball and CCI #11 caps. I'm searching for my manual to confirm what they advise for loads, and I recall that you need to back it off a little for 777 powder. I want to say that 90 grains is ok for a .45 rifle. Is my recollection all wet? I was careful to seat the ball against the powder at all times, and recall that 777 doesn't really like being packed "tight", so I was trying to be a little gentle with seating the ball. Right where my left thumb is, there's a screw head with a "backward comma" shaped brass washer like piece. The crack ascends at an angle just above the trigger, through the hole in the stock where the screw is and ends at the top of the stock... about even with "just forward of the nipple" on the left side of the stock. Needless to say, I was just sick to discover the crack. Kermit and I got to talking last night, and he's suspecting that there may've been some pressure on the wood where the screw goes through and that the shock of it being fired caused it to crack the stock. I'm hoping it was something like that, and not a result of me loading it too heavily. I'm also wondering whether I'll be able to wedge the crack open from the inside area and inject some epoxy into the crack and clamp it... sand it down and do some refinish... and check the screw for feeling like it binds as it goes through the wood. Since the Cherokee is no longer made by T/C... I doubt a replacement stock is going to be an option.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/Shooting/June09/TCCherokee002.jpg

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4v50 Gary
June 28, 2009, 05:46 PM
Looks like you guys had a lot of fun. Too bad about the gunstock cracking. I'd use superglue on that crack.

Ginormous
June 28, 2009, 06:24 PM
Fantastic view of the lake and surrounding area, as well as great pics of that fat doe!

BTW, Acraglas bedding epoxy from Brownell's (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1033/Product/ACRAGLAS) will fix that crack right up and stop further crack crawl in its tracks.

Ginormous
June 28, 2009, 06:33 PM
I meant to ask you Ratdog, is that a black tailed deer by any chance?

Ratdog68
June 28, 2009, 06:40 PM
thanks on the tip on the epoxy... I'll give it an eyeball.

Yessir... that is infact a blacktail doe. They're not the biggest critters, but about the only choice in Western WA. Eastern WA has some whitetails and some mulies.

There were plenty of elk tracks in the area too.

My buddy Kermit found some scat with hair in it... here kitty-kitty-kitty !!! I'd love to get myself a cougar !!! I'm told they're all white meat and very good eating too.

BTW... I forgot to address "clean-up". A copper wire brush in the barrel, some T/C bore cleaner swabbed with cleaning patches netted me clean patches by the third patch on both of these... then swabbed with T/C bore butter at the end of the day's shooting. I'm likin' this Hogdon 777 powder !!!

Ginormous
June 28, 2009, 06:55 PM
Hah! The only cougars we see around here, look like this:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/071114/tdy_kotb_cougar_071114.300w.jpg

No idea what's in their scat, or how they taste. :what::D

Ratdog68
June 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
I unnerstan'. :evil: Can it taste like chicken when it smells like tuna? :neener:

I broke down the Cherokee rifle just now... well, both sides are cracked and the right side crack is hidden by the side plate. There's no pressure on the stock that I can see upon trying to extract that screw (which, BTW, secures to side plate to the stock).

Haven't been able to locate my T/C manual for this gun... I'm beginning to wonder whether 75 grains was too heavy, or whether it had a hairline crack in it already when I bought it... and just hadn't caught it. I bought it used.

arcticap
June 28, 2009, 08:28 PM
Nice pictures & report. :)

The 75 grains of 777 shouldn't have been too much for it if shooting a round ball, but the maximum powder charge is lower when shooting conical bullets.
See pages 74 & 75 of the TC Manual and remember to reduce 777 loads by 15%.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

NobleSniper
June 28, 2009, 08:39 PM
Thats some nice looking country and looks like a good time was had by all. Hate to hear that about the stock on your TC.........that stinks. Will keep an eye out for ya ;)

Ratdog68
June 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
F/U question to that. Refresh my rememberer... since what I was using is fff and not ff... would that equate to the 75 gr. being a lesser energy charge than ff would generate... or a greater one than ff?

The Speer .433 round ball I was using doesn't indicate bullet weight... but, it would appear I was in the ball park for a good load afterall. Kinda comforting... I guess. :o

Smokin_Gun
June 29, 2009, 05:02 AM
fffg BP is smaller granule faster/hotter burnin' powder than ffg Black Powder..same goes for Pyrodex PS(pistol) and RS(rifle)...

arcticap
June 29, 2009, 05:14 AM
fffg is usually always greater than ffg, except sometimes when using 777, some ffg powder charges will be greater than fffg.
That's exactly what was recently reported by chronograph readings from a .45 inline when comparing velocities of both granulations. It took nearly 100 grain powder loads before the 777 fffg exceeded the velocity of 777 ffg shooting a particular weight of bullet/sabot. So it's hard to say if that would also hold true when shooting the lighter patched round ball as a projectile.
But one thing for certain is that 777 powder always seems to produce noticiably more felt recoil than equivalent amounts of other powders. So that does make it tougher to gauge how much 777 should be loaded.

Ratdog68
June 29, 2009, 11:41 AM
Smokin' Gun/Arcticap.... my digging seems to confirm the information you've helped me with. Faster burning is what I came up with too. I haven't found anything to indicate that I generated overly excessive loads within the gun with the charge I used.

I found my T/C manual that came with my Patriot Pistol... it lists the "Seneca" rifle (not the Cherokee) in it's specs for acceptable loads. They show a .440 ball with 90 grains of ffg as the max load for that model... with 1980 fps and 1106 ft/lbs. of energy.

Given... 75 grains of 777 is 15 grains more than a recommended 60 grains (15% less than standard BP)... I'd be surprised to hear that the gun is not designed to be able to handle a higher than max "published" load (as a safety margin).

Is my thinking correct when I also suspect that the smaller ball (.433) would generate lower load numbers within the gun (than the spec'd .440) for a given powder charge?

My only interest here... is to understand what happened. I'm ok with "if I goofed by accidently stuffin' too much powder in it, it's on me". My intent isn't to see how close to the edge I can live with loads, nor am I wantin' to blame anyone for my stock's failure. Nobody got hurt, glad that I was watchin' the gun and noticed it before things got ugly. I was trying to be reasonable with my recollection of charge size... and apparently just missed the upper limit by about 15 grains.

mykeal
June 29, 2009, 01:51 PM
I'm missing something.

75 gr by volume of 777 is equivalent to 75X1.15=86.25 gr by volume of real black powder.

T/C's max load recommendation is apparently 90 gr by volume of real black powder.

It appears to me that by shooting 75 gr by volume of 777 you were well in compliance with T/C's specification. Where does this come from:
a recommended 60 grains (15% less than standard BP)
Fifteen percent less than the (as I understand it) recommended maximum of 90 gr by volume of real black powder is 90x.85=76.5 gr.

I don't see that the 60 grains number is any kind of a maximum limit.

A pure lead .433 inch diameter ball weighs 122 grains. A .440 inch diameter pure lead ball weighs 128 grains, or 128/122=1.05, or 5 percent more than the .433 inch diameter ball. The .433 ball will generate a lower recoil load on the gunstock, but very much lower. It is in the right direction, however.

Based on my understanding of the numbers you did not exceed the gun's recommended load limits. However, design safety limits are arbitrary statistical quantities. They're intended to provide a margin for unknown or unexpected events and variations (tolerance stackups) in manufacturing processes and material properties. Assuming that no damage will occur if such limits are violated is a gamble.

arcticap
June 29, 2009, 02:21 PM
Some TC stocks can suffer damage while shooting recommended loads. I think that the safe maximum loading is for the barrel and doesn't reflect stresses on the stock.
For instance, the TC New Englander 12 gauge is known to be at risk to stock damage by shooting heavy round ball loads through it even though the barrel is safe to do so.
And the TC .45 Hawken stock would probably be able to withstand more shooting stress than the .45 Seneca stock even though both are being loaded within safe maximums.
My other point is that the felt recoil from shooting larger amounts of 777 powder really does make the powder "feel" more than 15% stronger.
IIRC there has been at least 1 report of a cap & ball revolver being damaged by shooting 777 through it.
So even though the stock damage may have been inflicted to your Seneca previously, it could have been made worse by shooting it.
Some stocks are simply made with built in stress points or have flawed wood that are exploited by shooting heavy powder loads, bullets or both.
And some beautiful stocks can crack or suffer major damage like breaking clean through at the wrist just from being dropped or falling over on to the ground.

BCRider
June 29, 2009, 02:48 PM
You flat landers just don't know what you're missing out on by not living out here.... :D

Nice report on the shooting. But it's too bad you didn't have any round balls for the Remmies yet.

Part of any rifle's appeal is how "interesting" the wood is. But the wood that has the most intense figure is often the wood that is most prone to stress cracks, checking and other ills. It's highly likely that the wood was already cracking or had a stress point and was just waiting to happen. Still, a good idea to be checking on the load info "just in case".

I'll second the idea of fixing it with some epoxy. Acriglass if you need to buy it anyway or any good non filled (as in clear) epoxy if you already have it. I wouldn't suggest 5 or 30 minute since it tends to get rather brittle with age. Stick with the 2'ish hour cure stuff. You want the clear type both so it won't color the stock as well as so it'll respond better to warming it up by not having fillers that get in the way.

To make it extra runny so it'll fill well down into the crack you can heat up the stock a little. Something like sticking it into a heating duct with the heat on will do the job just fine. Or setting up a temporary "oven" by using a couple of 100 watt incandescent bulbs (remember what those are? :D) with the stock above and with a blanket over it to hold in the heat. Some air gap to avoid bulb contact will avoid any nasties. In the meantime mix up a bit of the slow cure stuff and let it sit for a few minutes to further meld. Once warm through to the core (likely around 10'ish minutes) pull the stock out of your duct and mask off the lower side of the crack. Apply some glue and note now it thins out upon warming up. A hair dryer set on high heat can help this along. The epoxy will turn quite watery with this warming trick and flow much like water down into the crack. That's why the masking tape on the other side so it won't just run out. Clean up any exterior epoxy with paper towel and rubbing alchohal. Mask more of the crack as you go and work on filling the crack in stages until it's completely filled.

For a small open crack that you can't flex easily I don't recomend clamping it closed since it was a release of internal stress that caused it in the first place. No point in just glueing that same stress back into the stock. Just fill it and let the glue stabilize the wood in its new form. For longer cracks where you can close it completely or partially with some firm but not intense hand pressure clamping it shut isn't a bad idea. There's a bit of wood workers judgement call in this. You've done enough wood flexing stuff on your bows that you should be able to call this one pretty easily.

Ginormous
June 29, 2009, 03:08 PM
Who you calling flat lander? View from 45 minutes north of my home at 3000' amsl. Some day I'll have a cabin on this lot. And make moonshine. And stuff. :D

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF0025.jpg

Smokin_Gun
June 29, 2009, 04:02 PM
Ratdog68, great pics of the Pacific N.W. thanks for those ...it cooled me off some here in the Desert.
Seems either the Sharp shock or crack of the 777 ffg may have made, but more of a possible hairline crack in the T/C's stock was there but not apparent...bad luck all around on it for ya. But repairable or replacable. I used 777 ffg once in an 1860 Pietta 28gr knocked my wedge out and sheared off the lug locating pins on the third shot.
I still have a half a bottle of it. :O)
I use Black Powder and probly always will ... that's the stuff that doesn't change without you changin' the amount.
I shoot a constant 60gr of ffg Goex or KIK Black Powder in a Miroku Tennessee Poorboy.50, a Mowrey.50, and a 1863 Remington .58 Zouave...

higene
June 29, 2009, 10:22 PM
As I mentioned on another post, a .45 has followed me home. The rifle is very similar to a Traditions Crockett (barrel mics .890 across the flats at the muzzle). A Pedersoli book that came with my Howdah lists 38 grains as a max load.

:scrutiny:

What loads do others shoot in a .45 Pedersoli?

Higene

PS Here are some more pix from the Pacific Northwest (picture taken from my back porch).

Ratdog68
June 29, 2009, 10:52 PM
mykeal... hadn't had much coffee yet this morning... probably hit the wrong button on my phone's calculator when I was eyeballin' the load numbers. Thanks for settin' me straight on it... makes me feel even better than I was keeping within the specs for the load.

arcticap... probably was just a flaw in the stock, plus it's a very light gun/stock. I don't know for certain, but suspect I just shot the first rounds ever through it when it broke. It's a real purdy little deer/yote rifle.

BCRider... appreciate the input on the epoxy application. I'll probably go that route. Since it's got a fairly long crack on both sides... I found I can open the crack a bit by hand. I'll probably put the butt into a wood vice and open it manually after heating it and let the schmooie run on down into the length of the cracks. Definately will use the slow set stuff when I work on the repair. No reason NOT to try... got nothing to lose by doing so... and, I have three other rifles to use in the mean time, so, no rush in having it repaired with shortcuts either.

LOL... yeah.... the flatlanders don't seem to realize that we start at sea level and within 55 miles we're traversing the passes at about 5,000 feet with the mountains still above us. Those Colorado boys also forget that they're starting at 5,000+ elevation for their "tall" mountains.

Ginormous... sorry my friend... them's "foothills" 'round these parts... mere geological speed bumps, so to speak. :D But... them's' purdy ones none the less !!

Smokin' Gun.... yeah... lately, if it weren't fer bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck with the holy black toys. I plan on learning how to use this 777 stuff. I like it... especially the clean up ease it offers. I suspect the stock was already flawed, or worse, and just wasn't obvious to see before. C'est la vie.

Bottom line... I had a ball getting out and finally getting a chance to shoot the first two BP toys I acquired. I ain't givin' up this easy though. I've got two Hawkens, a Renegade, two 1858's, an 1810 Wm Parker pistol, and a Walker yet to put through their paces.

Thanks guys... appreciate the input/replies. Hope the pix were entertaining enough to motivate another to get out and do some plinkin' too.

I'll dig up the link and post it of my next bow build. We cut some poles of Vine Maple and I'm now learning how to do up a self bow (longbow) from SCRATCH... strip the bark and start making sawdust and shavings. I think I'm gonna go light on this one and see about making it a 45# @ 28". It's already got some killer "natural" reflex to it.

Ratdog68
June 29, 2009, 10:55 PM
As I mentioned on another post, a .45 has followed me home. The rifle is very similar to a Traditions Crockett (barrel mics .890 across the flats at the muzzle). A Pedersoli book that came with my Howdah lists 38 grains as a max load.

:scrutiny:

What loads do others shoot in a .45 Pedersoli?

Higene

PS Here are some more pix from the Pacific Northwest (picture taken from my back porch).
Hey, Higene? Where's "Yacolt" ? With as many miles as I've put on a bike in WA State... I'm surprised I can't place yer location.

higene
June 29, 2009, 11:30 PM
Yacolt is 25 miles north and east of the Portland airport, 12 miles north and east of Battleground. Exit 11 off of I-5, to Battleground, north at the Safeway on 503 and east 8 miles on Rock Creek Road along the East Fork of the Lewis river past Lucia Falls park. I am 400 yards past the Railroad Tracks. If you get to Molton Falls park you are 1 mile too far.

:)

Ratdog68
June 29, 2009, 11:41 PM
Yacolt is 25 miles north and east of the Portland airport, 12 miles north and east of Battleground. Exit 11 off of I-5, to Battleground, north at the Safeway on 503 and east 8 miles on Rock Creek Road along the East Fork of the Lewis river past Lucia Falls park. I am 400 yards past the Railroad Tracks. If you get to Molton Falls park you are 1 mile too far.

:)
I've been in the general area of you many times... but not to Yacolt. I passed your exit in the fall when I'm headed towards Trout Lake area to go elk hunting with my buddy.

Ratdog68
June 29, 2009, 11:43 PM
was to obtain some good poles for bows made of Vine Maple. Here's what we found and what is happening to 'em. :D

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=951163

arcticap
June 29, 2009, 11:56 PM
What loads do others shoot in a .45 Pedersoli?

I have a .45 Pedersoli with a 1 in 48" twist & is about ~27" in length, and for 50 yard target shooting it prefers ~38 grains of Pyrodex P.

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 05:55 PM
I liked the prospect of BCRider's thoughts with a repair attempt. So... yesterday I used a heat gun on the low setting and set about warming the wood. I then let the stock sit in the direct sunlight for a spell.

Some "Smooth-On" (EA-40) epoxy was mixed up and while it was cooking, I got the heat gun out again and warmed the wood some more. As I held the cracks open (both sides of the stock had a crack), my buddy Kermit buttered on some epoxy. I relaxed the wood and epoxy oozed out from both sides of both cracks quite well. That pretty much ensured that we had a wet joint... so I opened it up again and he buttered some more in.

I think we got really good coverage, and the warmed wood did seem to give the epoxy a little more fluidity. We wiped the excess off inside and out of both cracks and padded the stock top/bottom with pieces of wood and snugged it down with a C-clamp. It's been curing for 24hrs. so far. You can barely see the crack now.

I don't think there's any stain on the walnut used by T/C for the Cherokee... and I don't know what they use for a finish... but I'm thinking I'll give it a very light scuff with some 600 grit and then a few coats of Tru-Oil by Birchwood Casey and see how it goes.

T/C hasn't replied to my email yet when I enquired about a replacement stock... so, I'll just move ahead with my repair and see where it gets me.

There was no pressure on the screw as I pulled the hardware off the gun. The crack ran right up through the hole for the retaining screw (opposite the lock mechanism)... and another crack in the wood behind the lock mechanism. Everything appears to fit nicely upon disassembly... so, I'm suspecting a flawed stock from the get go... and it just fractured when the first rounds were put through this little puppy. Needless to say... minimum to mid-range loads only for this one from now on... just to be on the safe side.

BHP FAN
July 6, 2009, 08:33 PM
For my .45 Kentucky I found 60 gr. of Triple seven or seventy grains of Goex 2F worked the best.Max loads,or near max loads risk premature wear on the gun,''within spec'',or not.They also tend to waste powder and reduce accuracy,IMHO.

BHP FAN
July 6, 2009, 08:34 PM
Just beautifull pictures,by the way!Idid that same repair aft of the righthand lock of my Norinco Coachgun [there was some pressure on this one, the inletting allowed the wood too snug of a fit behind the rear of the lock] and now you really have to know where it is to see it,and even then,I'd have to point it out to you.It'll be fine.

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 08:42 PM
Agreed... I was winging it with my load selection last week and will definately be backing off on the amount of powder. And... yup... understand the benefit of sticking with an accurate load, instead of the most powerful one.

Thanks BHP Fan... appreciate the reply and comment on the pix.

arcticap
July 6, 2009, 09:41 PM
You should see what Seneca and Cherokee stocks and barrels sell for on eBay. If you really want one, that's the first place to look. But get out your wallet and be ready to bid! (The gun auction sites also sell some of them too) ;)

Das Jaeger
July 6, 2009, 09:44 PM
Hey , I know where that is , kinda . :)
Definately lots of Elk in Cle .
Looks like you had lots of fun . Guns break , fix-um and do it agian, thats life , don't let it get you down , I have broke a few too , and had a few break .
Thansk for sharing the pics, very cool .

Das Jaeger :)

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 09:47 PM
You should see what Seneca and Cherokee stocks and barrels sell for on eBay. If you really want one, that's the first place to look. But get out your wallet and be ready to bid! (The gun auction sites also sell some of them too) ;)
Ohhhh.... I'm already watching a couple of Cherokee stocks on eBay... including a double set trigger set-up. I'm kinda trying to avoid going there if'n I can. Thanks for the heads up though.

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 09:52 PM
Hey , I know where that is , kinda . :)
Definately lots of Elk in Cle .
Looks like you had lots of fun . Guns break , fix-um and do it agian, thats life , don't let it get you down , I have broke a few too , and had a few break .
Thansk for sharing the pics, very cool .

Das Jaeger :)
I'm definately gonna haunt that area for blacktail season... may give it a whirl for one of the elk seasons too.

Oh yeah... that outing was the maiden voyage for both of those burners of the holy black. I've got seven more of them that are in need of being broken in. That Bison... it's gotta go back to the factory this week. They really fouled up the backstrap on that puppy. And... I haven't snagged up any ball yet for any of my .44's. I really enjoyed playin' with the two .45's though. And... my buddy is ready to acquire a holy black toy now too. He's hooked. I love it when a plan comes together !!!

Das Jaeger
July 6, 2009, 09:57 PM
Very cool you addicted another human to the sport !
I have given away guns just to do that myself to people whom show interest .
Once they shoot one, they either love it or will never be back . I have known some folks that have sold entire collctions of Modern guns right after they try the Holy Black once , love it ! :)

Das Jaeger :)

BHP FAN
July 6, 2009, 10:08 PM
Really,'Dog you're pretty skilled with wood,and it's an easy fix. I don't think you'll NEED another stock. My only tip is not to be in too big of a hurry to reassemble,or it may be a permanent fix...but you hardly need me, to tell you that.
It'll be just fine.

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 10:08 PM
Very cool you addicted another human to the sport !
I have given away guns just to do that myself to people whom show interest .
Once they shoot one, they either love it or will never be back . I have known some folks that have sold entire collctions of Modern guns right after they try the Holy Black once , love it ! :)

Das Jaeger :)
What'll really set the hook in my buddy is... having the ability to have a .44 BP and a .45LC in one gun with just a minor swap. I wanna get his undivided attention with that one. We load our own for the Super Black Hawk .44's we have... and have the dies for the .45LC for one of his buddy's toys.

Ratdog68
July 6, 2009, 10:11 PM
Really,'Dog you're pretty skilled with wood,and it's an easy fix. I don't think you'll NEED another stock. My only tip is not to be in too big of a hurry to reassemble,or it may be a permanent fix...but you hardly need me, to tell you that.
It'll be just fine.
LOL I hear ya loud and clear !! The epoxy cures in 16hrs. at 25C (temp... and that's just for BCRider's benefit). I'm gonna give it at least a few days before it all goes back together. I don't know what T/C uses for finish on their stocks... but, a little sandpaper and some Tru-Oil is in this stock's future before it all goes back together.

Ratdog68
July 12, 2009, 02:07 AM
Last weekend the wood on the stock got warmed up really well and we mixed up some "Smooth-On EA-40" Epoxy. I opened up the cracks and my buddy buttered some in... the stock was relaxed and good amounts of epoxy oozed out of each side of each crack. I opened it up again and more epoxy got buttered in. The top/bottom got padded and a "C-Clamp" applied to tighten the joint... then the excess epoxy was wiped off and the repair cured for a day and a half.

Last night I sanded the stock down with some 400 grit and applied one coat of Tru-Oil to it and let it cure overnight. Today, after a couple more coats went on... I sat down and sanded the entire stock back down to the wood with 400 grit, 1500 grit and then 0000 wool. I tried to avoid burnishing the edges of sharp edges too much... but, I managed to do so a little here/there.

The "lock side" crack doesn't show, and the other side is barely visible at this point in time. Tomorrow... a couple/three more coats of Tru-Oil go on. It feels as smooth as glass at this point, even with it being buffed down like it is.

Otay Jaegermeister... you wanted pix... here they are. Now... where's the pix of YOUR day's efforts like I wanted to see? :neener:

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair003.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair002.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair001.jpg

BCRider
July 12, 2009, 02:57 AM
What crack? :D

Nice job there Ratdog. But from someone that can tiller and finish a bow I'd expect no less.

And I DO appreciate the 25C thing :D Currently as I type this it's 26.5C in the house and the only thing keeping me inside is the ceiling fan. In fact looking at the temp reminds me that it's time for the big honkin' window fan to be put into action to draw in some of the cooler outside air.

Ratdog68
July 12, 2009, 03:32 AM
What crack? :D

Nice job there Ratdog. But from someone that can tiller and finish a bow I'd expect no less.

And I DO appreciate the 25C thing :D Currently as I type this it's 26.5C in the house and the only thing keeping me inside is the ceiling fan. In fact looking at the temp reminds me that it's time for the big honkin' window fan to be put into action to draw in some of the cooler outside air.
LOL Phunny you should mention that bow. I also added a few last coats of Tru-Oil on it... added the rug rest and leather piece for the side of the shelf. It's "ofisholee" done.

Indeed... I've got a fan inserted into the window opening right next to the couch. Sure is nice to have cool/fresh air on a night like tonight.

Das Jaeger
July 12, 2009, 07:42 AM
good Ratdogface-ness .
Its so strong it will break in front of the epoxy next time if it does . I can see why after looking at the grain pattern why it broke though . Good solid repair , hopefully it will stay together now. I wouldn't baby it either , run some 80's through it and see if ya can break it . Nothin worse than havin it out huntin and break on ya .
Oh hey , about the Pics from me of my days follys , they are in the mail , so hold your breath ok :D
Coat three on Kentucky . I let mine dry hard each coat , try it sometime you'll like it . :neener:

Das Jaeger :)

Ratdog68
July 14, 2009, 01:24 AM
After taking the first coats of finish back down to the grain... Here's what it's lookin' like with the first two coats back on it again. I decided to put the hardware back on it to make sure things are fitting good still. Time to pull it all apart again and resume some buffing and additional coats.

And... unlike SOME around here (Alan)... shiny brass appeals to me... so, it got a little polish thrown at it while the Tru-Oil dries. It's definately going to be nicer than new when it's done.

Hmmm... still have that .50 Hawken kit that needs fixed (waiting in the wings). Already scrubbed the "brown" (gunk) off it... I'm still thinkin' it's gonna be "in the white" still. But... that's another adventure for another day. :neener:

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair004.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair005.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair006.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair007.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/45Cherokee/CrackRepair008.jpg

Das Jaeger
July 14, 2009, 01:30 AM
Buckwheat ! :neener:
Thats what it should look like when your doing it right with Tru-Oil :D
Better than new , and then some man , good job , love that shiney Brass , on a Monkey . :D

Das Jaeger

Ratdog68
July 14, 2009, 02:10 AM
You wanted to see the finished pix of the longbow.... well... here's the link for the final 10 pix of it. :neener:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1055057211#post1055057211

Ratdog68
July 14, 2009, 02:14 AM
Buckwheat ! :neener:
Thats what it should look like when your doing it right with Tru-Oil :D
Better than new , and then some man , good job , love that shiney Brass , on a Monkey . :D

Das Jaeger
Well... this monkey likes his shiny brass. They make camo tape wrap for hunting days. :neener: You're right... this could become adicting (tinkering with one's toys like this).

BCRider
July 14, 2009, 06:41 AM
That Tru-Oil sure builds up fast. Looks like a lot more coats than just two.

If you want to keep the brass shiney go find some Eagle brand car wax called Wet One. I've used it on polished aluminium bicycle parts that were used for commuting year round as well as on some brass paintball guns. The stuff works pretty good at keeping away corrosion. The brass can be handled a fair amount before it begins to tarnish from the finger oils. And the aluminium bicycle parts were good for a couple of seasons before I had to re-do the waxing. Oh... and it really makes the bicycle frames, motorcycle and truck paint look nice for not much work....

Das Jaeger
July 14, 2009, 09:25 AM
Brass Monkey Boy , I mean Ratdog68 on the Bow, and gun . Bows cool !

Das Jeager

Ratdog68
July 14, 2009, 11:02 AM
Thanks guys... just havin' some fun with it. :D

Olmontanaboy
July 14, 2009, 11:39 AM
You wanted to see the finished pix of the longbow.... well... here's the link for the final 10 pix of it.

Wow, outstanding! Now that's something to be proud of.

Ratdog68
July 14, 2009, 11:52 AM
It's a joy to shoot too. As much as I enjoy my recurves... nuttin' does it like a longbow (for me).

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 14, 2009, 12:54 PM
If TC has that much trouble with their stocks being prone to damage on either their rifles or shotguns, sound's to me like the TC may not be as dependable or as 'fine a rifle' as most people say it is....

Das Jaeger
July 14, 2009, 02:27 PM
$20,000.00 stocks break , and $100 stocks break .
Stocks break . Has little to NOTHING to do with TC quality .

Das Jaeger

mykeal
July 14, 2009, 02:46 PM
GotC - I thnk the evidence is pretty clear that T/C doesn't have that kind of trouble with their stocks. A few examples does not a population make; there are tens of thousands of T/C stocks out there that do not have such problems.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 14, 2009, 04:05 PM
Okay, Mr. MyKeal. I'll take your word, especially since I don't know any better anyway. I was just going by what I read on this thread. I'd always heard that TC was a good rifle. Never had my hands on one and never intend to. My nephew has a TC. I think it might be a .50..He has certainly taken a lot of deer with it. Never heard him mention ever having any type of problem with it....Nonetheless if I go buy a new rifle and the damn stock cracks or the front sight fall's off or the breech plug blows out, I'd say it had one hell of a lot to do with the quality of the product they sold me....I understand what you were saying.

Das Jaeger
July 14, 2009, 05:17 PM
anything mechanical can break , Rolls Royce or VW Beetle .
There is always going to be the fraction of mechanical things , parts , stocks , springs , sights , what-have-ya that beyond anyones dream of it lasting forever just because you think it should last forever , or its CUSTOM , and be imune to REALITY , is going to fail , break , or not work properly , especialy forever . Its a machine , its going to wear out , its going to fail eventually as certain as death and taxes .
I don't owne any TC anything and never intend to . That woudln't keep me from owning one though or thinking they are crap . I know better . I know lots of people with them and they function perfect and have for years and years . Anything mechanical or any gun hand built is suseptable to the same rules too , because I know better . :D

Das Jaeger :D

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