Post here if you can afford....


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bear71
June 29, 2009, 05:43 PM
...$15,000 in attorney fees in a criminal defense and an additional $15,000 in a civil defense on your behalf in a completely justifiable defensive shooting.

Let's assume that there was no other way to save your life and you would have suredly been killed without the defense.

Would saving your life lead you to near financial ruin? I've heard people that defend themselves sometimes get fired from their jobs.

Are there advocacy groups that help defendants that were completely in the right?

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Grassman
June 29, 2009, 05:48 PM
I can't afford it, but if my life is on the line and it's me or the scumbag trying to kill me, I shoot and worry about the consequences later.

yeti
June 29, 2009, 05:52 PM
I couldn't afford that either, but if I'm dead I can't even try to dig myself out of that hole, or the one I would find myself in.

highorder
June 29, 2009, 05:52 PM
Every aspect of a SD shooting would be devastating to me.

Probably not as devastating as my passing would be to my loved ones, or their passing if I couldn't defend them...

bear71
June 29, 2009, 05:54 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Grassman. I can't quite come to grips with your take yet. I think about it often while carrying. Yours may be the only way to go but it takes something internal to finally digest it. I'm not there yet.

At present, I'd save my life and immediately think that my kids would be out on the street. They'd still have a Dad though.

waterhouse
June 29, 2009, 06:06 PM
I can afford it. If it were $500,000 I'd find a way to afford it. I've got friends and family that I could stay with after declaring bankruptcy as well.

If the shooting is completely justifiable, I don't see myself paying for either. Perhaps if there is some question of the justification . . . but if it is, as you wrote, completely justifiable, I don't see it making it past a grand jury and I don't think the civil suit will go very far either.

Thanks for your thoughts, Grassman. I can't quite come to grips with your take yet.

It sounds like you already have come to grips with it. You say at present you'd save your life. Those are the options. You can save your life and worry about financial consequences or not save your life and not have to worry about them. I see this as an extremely easy choice.

Stirling XD
June 29, 2009, 06:06 PM
I think for most of us the desire to preserve our life is greater than the desire to preserve our wealth.

Flyboy
June 29, 2009, 06:16 PM
I'm sure I could find a way to come up with thirty grand in the course of still being alive.

Siderite
June 29, 2009, 06:16 PM
The only one I'm aware of:

Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

and has some fairly big names backing it, Ayoob, Farnam, Givens, Tueller. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/advisors.html

lebowski
June 29, 2009, 06:17 PM
I can afford it, and would consider it a small price to pay for my life.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 06:21 PM
This is all assuming that it even gets that far (not all HD/PD cases go to trial).

But, no, I dont have the funds sitting around for such a defense.

In regards to the other question...Id consider joining the Second Ammendment Club (per Massad Ayoob) as they have many pro-gun lawyers at their disposal, in addition to many other individuals who are very familiar with all aspects of weapons and their use regarding home defense or personal defense and the advocacy thereof. It may not be a sure bet, but it certainly would not hurt tapping into such a pipeline.

blutarsky
June 29, 2009, 06:22 PM
it's a lose-lose situation, really -- with having to defend your actions, even if it's a good shoot, you potentially face financial ruin ... something you might not be able to afford (never mind the psychological scars). on the other hand, you surely can't afford to do nothing if your life truly depended on it. the question was framed as "there was no other way to save your life" so clearly given that it's a righteous shoot, i'd rather be walking away and dealing with whatever may come than the other possible outcome.

kind of related -- our CHL instructor had a slide show, and a repeating theme he had throughout the slides was flashing up pictures of various train wrecks, to get the point across that if you mess up and don't have a good shoot you're screwed, your life becoming a veritable train wreck. you better be prepared and practiced, because if for instance you screw up and shoot an innocent by-stander it all falls down on you. and likewise, even if you are totally in the clear, and even with protections of castle doctrine, etc, you're still potentially in it for thousands and thousands in legal fees even if all you face is a grand jury before getting no-billed.

it seemed pretty bleak, but the point is that you gotta be ready for the responsibility and be ready for what might come with it... but in the end if you accept the responsibility, are confident in your training and preparations, then faced with the situation you describe above you might just be the one walking away from a very bad night, even if you're going to be putting some lawyer's kid through college because of it.

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:24 PM
"It sounds like you already have come to grips with it."

Yeah, pretty close. Not 100%. Maybe 96%. I have a huge fear of juries in my home state of Minnesota. This is the kind of state where a jury is just itching to make an example out you.

Kill anything on four legs all day long and we'll consider you a champ but defend your life and you're a worthless scumbag criminal.

I don't trust Al Franken voters to make the right decision even if I had a hundred eye witnesses testifying on my behalf.

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:27 PM
"I think for most of us the desire to preserve our life is greater than the desire to preserve our wealth."

And if there is no wealth? Public defender ready to send you off to jail for 20 years rather than 40?

gripper
June 29, 2009, 06:28 PM
Years ago,I lost a job for defeinding myself WITHOUT a weapon(unless you count thecar door I dented with someone's face)...I did not get charged,as it was a justifiable use of force against two other guys(one of who had a serious size/weight advantage on me);but because some of the tenants saw meat the MIDPOINT of the encounter they drew the entirely wrong conclusion-thus I was asked to seek employment elsewhere.
I can only imagine the legal/administrative headache you'd face with an anti-employer/ADA/region/etc.....yet I would STILLhave no reservations or hesitation in using lethal force to save MY @ss or someone else's....some things you just can't let go.

snorky18
June 29, 2009, 06:28 PM
...$15,000 in fees in purchasing fees for a kidney and an additional $15,000 in medical (operating room) expenses on your behalf in a completely necessary kidney operation.

Let's assume that there was no other way to save your life and you would have suredly been killed without the kidney and operation.

Would saving your life lead you to near financial ruin? I've heard people that defend themselves sometimes get fired from their jobs.


^^It's the same question to me. And I would find a way to come up with the money, so long as I still had my life

As far as "advocacy groups", the only one I know of is http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/ that someone mentioed earlier. IIRC you pay a small premium yearly in exchange for legal representation at discounted rates should something unfortunate happen. It's like homeowner's insurance basically. But I think you have to have it in place before something happens, can't go crying to them afterwards if you haven't been paying your dues.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 06:30 PM
Again...you will not always make it to trial nor will you always be the recipient of a civil suit. I guess it all comes down to probable cause.

To me, its basically a crap game. All you can do is link up with as many "pro-gun" lawyers/experts as you can, use common sense, and take it from there.

Yes...losing everything (financially speaking) is a possibility, even if the force was justified...but, Id rather lose my money than my life.

Join the Second Ammendment Club (among others)...

http://www.secondamendmentclub.org/

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:33 PM
snorky,

Disagreed on the analogy. There's all kinds of medical assistance programs out there. How often do we see benefits for the ill? Are we going to run a benefit for a justifiable defense shooting? I've never heard of that before.

Superb link on the "insurance" that's exactly what I was looking for.

Great post, thanks.

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:36 PM
"Yes...losing everything (financially speaking) is a possibility...but, Id rather lose my money than my life."

Agreed. I guess I'm thinking two steps ahead. The possibility of sitting in a jail cell with no plan at all might be more than I wish to bare. I'm at the "what next" stage.

Jamie C.
June 29, 2009, 06:40 PM
I figure if a person is worried about money, then they aren't worried enough about their life.

As has already been posted, a person can dig themselves back out of a financial hole a helluva lot quicker and easier than a literal one.

So for me, I don't see where I can afford to do anything other than defend myself, if needed, and deal with whatever else comes up after I survive.


J.C.

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:42 PM
So what's your plan, Jamie?

You've trained, you carry, you value your life. Now what?

SCKimberFan
June 29, 2009, 06:45 PM
That what is so good about being in a state that respects self-defense (Castle Doctrine). If it is a "good shoot" (legally speaking), then you are exempt from any lawsuit from the perp and/or thier family.

Corporal K
June 29, 2009, 06:46 PM
Plenty of folks have spent at least that much on their gun collection over the years.

Owen Sparks
June 29, 2009, 06:48 PM
Don't they have to find a body before they can charge you with unjustifiably shooting an intruder?

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:48 PM
"Plenty of folks have spent at least that much on their gun collection over the years."

Do criminal defense attorney's offer the five year payment plan?

FFMedic
June 29, 2009, 06:51 PM
Maybe if you are not loaded with cash you could take some time to lobby your state for a castle doctrine and other such laws? Seems like most SD shootings are at home.

As far as me? I could get the cash, no biggie given the circumstances.

FFMedic

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 06:52 PM
bear71- There just are no guarantees here. If the shooting is a "cut and dry" self-defense case, chances are no trial will take place as no prosecutor would waste his/her time with it. Sure, a civil suit may be next, but Im betting that it would not go far unless there were probable cause in doing so.

Where I live, the laws seem to favor a self defense shooting (particularly within the home) vs. making allowances on the criminals behalf.

Again, try this link (as recommended by the likes of Massad Ayoob and others) and consider what they offer. But, keep in mind, "insurance" only goes so far. Still, having SOME type of plan/recourse is better than having none at all, yes?

http://www.secondamendmentclub.org/

Do I have a plan? Somewhat/yes. Can I predict the outcome? Not a chance. Do the lives of my family mean more to me than my money or my own life? Without hesitation...YES.

Old Fuff
June 29, 2009, 06:57 PM
At present, I'd save my life and immediately think that my kids would be out on the street. They'd still have a Dad though.

I think that most kids would tell you they'd rather have Dad. Money isn't that impressive to them. Dad is. :cool:

Money is replaceable - one way or another, although it might take a long time. Lives, yours and others, cannot be replaced. Getting killed seldom does your family (let alone you) any favors.

bear71
June 29, 2009, 06:58 PM
"Still, having SOME type of plan/recourse is better than having no plan at all, yes?"

Yes! The Boy Scout motto has always been "be prepared."

I'm very curious about the topic because this weekend I experienced an event that could have gone terribly wrong but was succesfully diffused. I was on the outside of the fringe of the event but could have easily been drawn in with my own life in danger.

My mind is now circling on the aftermath if that event couldn't be diffused.

Jamie C.
June 29, 2009, 06:59 PM
So what's your plan, Jamie?

You've trained, you carry, you value your life. Now what?

I defend my life, then explain to whatever cop answers the call what happened. If it happens to be a home invasion, or even in the county I live in, the responding officer will probably be one I used to work with, or at least one who knows me... might possibly even be my own brother.

After that... who knows? Can't say I've spent much time thinking on it.

I do know the likelihood of it costing me everything I have is pretty slim, if it's honestly a self-defense situation. Especially given TN's laws on the subject.


J.C.

Nate1778
June 29, 2009, 07:00 PM
Let the state pay for the attorney. If it is clear cut it should not be an issue. Now a shot to the back, or something a bit more questionable (which is what were talking about) time to lawyer up. Either way I would pay, I would also let my local news outlets know about the trouble with defending your life.

mikecu
June 29, 2009, 07:06 PM
This topic tells me that Florida is on to something.
If you aren't charged with a crime in a defensive shoot, then you can't be sued for it either.

Castle laws are beneficial.

mgkdrgn
June 29, 2009, 07:07 PM
...$15,000 in attorney fees in a criminal defense and an additional $15,000 in a civil defense on your behalf in a completely justifiable defensive shooting.

Let's assume that there was no other way to save your life and you would have suredly been killed without the defense.

Would saving your life lead you to near financial ruin? I've heard people that defend themselves sometimes get fired from their jobs.

Are there advocacy groups that help defendants that were completely in the right?

So long as it's a "good shoot", living in South Carolina resolves #1.

Being self employed pretty much solves the job issue. :-)

bear71
June 29, 2009, 07:08 PM
Looks like Florida has some intelligent people writing the laws. That is your good fortune, mike.

Castle laws should be nationwide.

Deltaboy
June 29, 2009, 07:08 PM
Yep Texas is the same no Charge = civil immunity.

doc2rn
June 29, 2009, 07:10 PM
Been there done that! It was only $23000....:-( Blood sucking lawyers and courts no wonder judges live high on the hog! N E way I won and it was mostly from the civil suites brought by each member of the family pro bono dontcha know! He was a good brother, father, son just got his life turned around and he hit a rough patch.

danprkr
June 29, 2009, 07:12 PM
I defend my life, then explain to whatever cop answers the call what happened.

No, you defend your life, and then ask whatever cop answers the call for your attorney. Not because the cops are bad guys looking to bust you, but because ANYTHING you say can be used by the DA so respectfully refuse to answer anything except your name. It's real hard to get into trouble with your mouth closed.

As to the question of can you come up with 30k. I have learned from bitter experience that money comes and goes. Trust me, I've gone from happily married making a decent living to divorced, living on food stamps, my church, and friends due to health issues that I couldn't afford.

I'm still here, and coming out of that hole. Do what you have must in the moment to protect yourself and your family. The rest will wait, and be taken care of in due time. Especially if you have kids to take care of. Your first, greatest, and ONLY responsibility is to be around to take care of them.


.

Ky Larry
June 29, 2009, 07:14 PM
Mr. Sparks, are you suggesting some one might "Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up?"
I was raised in Eastern Kentucky. I know some places in Wolfe, Powell, Lewis and Mennifee counties where a body wouldn't be found in several lifetimes.:evil:
There are no luggage racks on the meat wagon that will haul you the cemetary so what good is all the money in the world if you're dead?

armoredman
June 29, 2009, 07:16 PM
Arizona, Castle Defense, and this little gem...
13-413. No civil liability for justified conduct

No person in this state shall be subject to civil liability for engaging in conduct otherwise justified pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.


If I am justified, neither my opponent nor his family, nor his estate may sue me.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 07:19 PM
I'm very curious about the topic because this weekend I experienced an event that could have gone terribly wrong but was succesfully diffused. I was on the outside of the fringe of the event but could have easily been drawn in with my own life in danger.

You have my attention...would you feel comfortable explaining this situation?

Winston_Smith
June 29, 2009, 07:20 PM
I dont think 15K would even come close to covering a murder trail, maybe 100K would be a good starting point. Expert witnesses, lab work, etc will drive the cost up even higher.

People spend more than 15K on divorces...

jhco
June 29, 2009, 07:21 PM
In Florida I believe the castle doctrine helps to prevent the criminal or their family from suing you after a SD shooting if you are found to be innocent, and it also prevents you from being prosecuted if you acted within the law. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

inSight-NEO
June 29, 2009, 07:24 PM
In Florida I believe the castle doctrine helps to prevent the criminal or their family from suing you after a SD shooting if you are found to be innocent, and it also prevents you from being prosecuted if you acted within the law.

Im not familiar with Florida law relating to such matters, but this sounds similar to where I live.

SharpsDressedMan
June 29, 2009, 07:40 PM
I would not want to be any part of "the system" that gave me a raw deal after a justifiable self defense shooting. Might cause me to go "postal" and not care anymore.........and, at that point, I don't care if "they" discover I said that on the internet. I'm sick and tired of things not being right anymore..........SO, as long as people play nice with me, I'll play nice with them...........

Jamie C.
June 29, 2009, 07:42 PM
No, you defend your life, and then ask whatever cop answers the call for your attorney. Not because the cops are bad guys looking to bust you, but because ANYTHING you say can be used by the DA so respectfully refuse to answer anything except your name. It's real hard to get into trouble with your mouth closed.

Danprkr, I fully realize that for many people, what you're saying is probably true.

However, in my case, clamming up would likely be a sure-fire way of spending the night in jail.

As I've mentioned, I know what the law is, here in TN, and also most of the local L.E.O.s, since I used to be one of them.

So believe me when I tell you no one would be "looking to bust me".

Also, I know exactly what needs to come out of my mouth - and what doesn't - when the police arrive.


J.C.

CWL
June 29, 2009, 07:43 PM
My life is worth more than $30,000. So are that of my family.

All the money in the world can't buy you one more breath of air if you are willing to leave your life to the whims of a BG..

Animal Mother
June 29, 2009, 07:51 PM
I could afford it; but only after making some real sacrifices.

Would saving your life lead you to near financial ruin?

Yes

Are there advocacy groups that help defendants that were completely in the right?

Armed Citizensí Legal Defense Network (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/) is the closest thing I know of to an advocacy group, but they don't work for free.

Badlander
June 29, 2009, 08:08 PM
A guy In West Palm Beach Last year killed A gangbanger in What was later decided to be A legal shoot. He was in jail for at least 6 mo. During that time the gangbangers friends burned his house (twice) lost his job. And the county had his dogs put down. I don't know how much money it cost him but he is alive. I don't know the man but I bet he thinks it was worth it.

danprkr
June 29, 2009, 08:09 PM
However, in my case, clamming up would likely be a sure-fire way of spending the night in jail.

So? A night in jail awaiting your attorney, or a multi-thousand dollar multi-month trial ordeal that your attorney could have beat before the charges were filed? Not much of a choice to me. One night ain't gonna kill me.

So believe me when I tell you no one would be "looking to bust me".

Probably true in many more rural jurisdictions. Especially if you know the players. But, all it takes is one DA to decide that one answer you gave will give him a way to grind some political/personal/professional ax at your expense.

Here in Austin the City Council went to the trouble of passing a motion to condemn concealed carry in the state when it was being passed. Fortunately smarter heads prevailed. But, it is not inconceivable that some liberal DA would want to hang me for having the gall to defend myself from some scumbag.

So, if you're willing to bet your life on your connections, fine. Me, I'm waiting for an attorney, even if that means spending a bit of time in the tank.

BTW - I just looked up some old stats from my TX CHL Instructor course. In TX all shootings SHALL go to a grand jury, and the average cost for a no bill at the Grand Jury was 30k - 15 years ago. If you went to a trial it was closer to 100k. Which, as one guy said meant that if you used a double tap those rounds cost 50k each!:what: And to think. There's another thread on this board where we're griping about 75 cents a round. :rolleyes:

.

Jamie C.
June 29, 2009, 08:32 PM
Probably true in many more rural jurisdictions. Especially if you know the players. But, all it takes is one DA to decide that one answer you gave will give him a way to grind some political/personal/professional ax at your expense.

Hmm... Well, although I don't personally know the DA, one of the assistant DAs is one of my old training officers from the Sheriff's office... and another is an old family friend.

And I won't even bother listing the county commissioners I know, or the judges... or for how long I've known them.

I will tell you that all of those people are going to find it quite suspicious if I refuse to answer even basic questions, or immediately ask for my attorney. ( An attorney who also serves as the city's attorney. )

Anybody else starting to see where me refusing to talk might be a bad idea? Especially in a "clean shoot" situation?

Again, I know this isn't a typical or usual situation... but for me, given my history with these people... shutting up until an attorney gets there isn't likely to do anything but make a bad situation much worse.


J.C.

waterhouse
June 29, 2009, 09:15 PM
Do criminal defense attorney's offer the five year payment plan?

Many of them do.

SaxonPig
June 29, 2009, 09:19 PM
I sleep with my attorney so I might save a little.

Seriously, job one is to stay alive. There's always the possibility of criminal prosecution or civil litigation following a shooting but if you don't survive none of that matters much, does it?

This is why I advise against modifying guns and other actions that could help a zealous prosecutor or civil lawyer come after you. Make sure you are in the right and be prepared for what may happen next.

MagnumWill
June 29, 2009, 09:49 PM
I'm sure my wife would miss me if I thought 15K was too much, and let the guy smoke me.

15,000 dollars isn't the end of the world- the bullet in the BG's chamber is. ;)

D94R
June 29, 2009, 10:00 PM
Ummm. Can I make payments?

Mohawk
June 29, 2009, 10:10 PM
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

w_houle
June 29, 2009, 10:23 PM
I dont have to: All I have to remember is how much it will cost if I fail to act, and go for the cheaper option (It's not quite what I mean, but am at a loss for words right now)

cchris
June 29, 2009, 11:08 PM
We need to introduce Bill Gates to guns via thehighroad.org.

Jamie C.
June 30, 2009, 12:20 AM
Something else just occurred to me, concerning this question...

Let's say you decide that you can't afford the attorney's fees, and let the bad guy plug you a time or three... and then you survive.

Can you afford the medical bills? The disability that may occur? That sort of thing could run into the hundreds of thousands, and leave you dependent on someone else for the rest of your life.

Can anybody really afford that?
I don't know about the rest of ya, but that sort'a makes $15,000 to $30,000 look like an absolute bargain to me.



J.C.

heron
June 30, 2009, 11:44 AM
Well, if you are attacked and don't shoot, will the perp have the money to compensate your losses? Thinking this way, it starts to sound like a toss-up . . .

JohnBT
June 30, 2009, 12:26 PM
"...if you can afford..."

I can. Will you take a personal check?

John

youngda9
June 30, 2009, 12:41 PM
I'll muster up 10x that if it means keeping me out of prison.

ALHunter
June 30, 2009, 12:54 PM
Better up those numbers.

As a practicing lawyer I will opine that a criminal defense will run you at least $30k to $50k. More often than not criminal defense requires a large retainer to proceed and replenishing that retainer each time it gets down to a predetermined amount.

To defend against a civil suit, minimum $50k-$75k to get through summary judgment. If SJ denied, add another $25k to get through trial and post trial motions. Add another $5k to $10k if appeal is necessary.

jackstinson
June 30, 2009, 01:06 PM
Money is just money. I had none when I came into the world.
Your life and/or your loved-one's life is another matter entirely.

It's kind of humorous in a way. I read on this forum constantly about buying the best gun, the best holster, the best belt, the best shirt to cover it all, and the best ammo.....all that is usually followed by the words, "How much is your life worth?".
So.......How much is your life worth? ;)

jimmyraythomason
June 30, 2009, 01:16 PM
There is no choice here. In the opening scenerio you either defend yourself or you're D-E-A-D. There is no future in that. You come "to grips" with it after the fact and deal with it the best you can. Yes it will be emotionally draining and for most people will take a long time to get over,if at all but in the end you still come home to your family who needs you. "before you is life and death..choose life"

ezenbrowntown
June 30, 2009, 01:23 PM
Shoot, that's cheaper than the medical costs if the BG puts a serious hurting on me and I need some surgery. :)

bear71
June 30, 2009, 01:32 PM
"Quote:
Do criminal defense attorney's offer the five year payment plan?

Many of them do."

Thanks, water. That's reassuring. Many of us could probably handle that. Might be no different than paying for an education.

bear71
June 30, 2009, 01:53 PM
Things I learned from this thread -

1. A solid good shoot will probably not lead to criminal charges.
2. One can purchase "insurance" or join a group sympathetic to good shoots.
3. Have a good lawyer, now, not tomorrow.
4. Some attorney's will accept time duration plans for payment of services.
5. Some good shooters here have no plan whatsoever after a good shoot.
6. Criminal and civil defenses cost way more than $15,000 a piece.

Jamie C.
June 30, 2009, 02:27 PM
5. Some good shooters here have no plan whatsoever after a good shoot.

Heh... with my luck, the prosecuting attorney might very well use the fact that I had a plan laid out for what to do after a shooting - good or bad - against me in court.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury... I submit to you that the defendant was looking to get into a shooting; That he wanted to kill someone. If not, why else would he have carefully thought out and planned for what to do afterwards?" ( And from here, he/she goes into any details that can be dug up concerning any preparations, and how that is evidence of a desire and expectations of being in a situation involving shooting someone. )


J.C.

SCKimberFan
June 30, 2009, 02:39 PM
This is why I like SC's laws:

SECTION 16-11-450. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil actions; law enforcement officer exception; costs.

(A) A person who uses deadly force as permitted by the provisions of this article or another applicable provision of law is justified in using deadly force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of deadly force, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known that the person is a law enforcement officer.

(B) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of deadly force as described in subsection (A), but the agency may not arrest the person for using deadly force unless probable cause exists that the deadly force used was unlawful.

(C) The court shall award reasonable attorneys' fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of a civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (A).

Not only do I not have to pay, I will be compensated by the defendants and my attorneys fees will be covered, if it was a "good shoot".

Jamie C.
June 30, 2009, 02:57 PM
Not only do I not have to pay, I will be compensated by the defendants and my attorneys fees will be covered, if it was a "good shoot".

Just a little FYI for ya, SCKimberFan:

The wife and I were awarded attorneys' fees and court costs here a few years back, in a case we had with her ex.

We had to pay our attorney up front, and we've yet to be reimbursed for it.

It seems that although the court will award those things, it's tough to get it to help collect it. Well, except for the court costs... they'll get theirs before the ever let the person back out the door. We, however, were pretty much on our own, unless we wanted to take the dummy back to court later.

Which didn't seem to make a whole helluva lot of sense, given that we didn't wanna be in court in the first place... :rolleyes:


J.C.

RoostRider
June 30, 2009, 03:25 PM
Could you afford it if you hit someone with your car?
If someone got injured/killed on your property?

There should be insurance for this like there is with cars and houses. For defense counsel purposes only, not to pay liabilities because of a wrongful shoot.

I think the premium cost could be really low, since there are very very few justifiable defense shootings that end up in law suits. And even when they do, the costs are pretty limited (no attorney is going to want $1,000,000 to defend you, such as is often awarded in negligent injury/homicide cases). And since the insurance wouldn't cover your damages if found guilty, the costs can be mitigated down to the thousands instead of unknown amounts to be determined after trial.

States that have laws against lawsuits regarding legal shoots could be even cheaper.

Perhaps you could even have a clause that requires the offender to repay the court costs if he is found guilty...

If this exists already, could someone point out where and how much it costs?

jakemccoy
June 30, 2009, 04:44 PM
I can afford $30k total, but that estimate for attorney fees would be low 'round here in my parts.

danbrew
June 30, 2009, 05:02 PM
I'm with the attorney from Alabama - it will cost a lot more than $30k.

hmmm... can I get a discount if I shoot two of 'em?

Seriously.

:banghead:

SharpsDressedMan
June 30, 2009, 05:58 PM
Victims in Ohio have a fund for which they can make application for compensation for victims from the state.
I don't know the specifics, but it has to be better than nothing......

jimmyraythomason
June 30, 2009, 06:29 PM
Perhaps electing a pro-self defence Prosecuting District Attorny would be the way to go? If the DA doesn't ask for a Grand Jury inquiry then there is no case to defend.

danbrew
June 30, 2009, 06:31 PM
no criminal case. unless your state specifically forbids civil action as a result of self defense shootings, you're gonna get sued.

jimmyraythomason
June 30, 2009, 06:37 PM
^^^ possibly but that is not guaranteed. Sometimes even the BG's friends and family are glad to see him gone.

runrabbitrun
June 30, 2009, 06:54 PM
It's probably been said but.
IF you can't afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.

Personally it's another area I'm sick and tired of.

The LAW is supposed to be able to be understood by ALL of us
and we ALL should be able to discern the law and have equal access to the system.
It should NOT be as convoluted as it is now
and the good old boy network of lawyers/judges (I went to school to learn the law stuff
how dare you try to defend yourself, give ME some money and I can do it for you) should not apply.

We have a REAL problem with the laws in this land and how a 'hierarchy'
has been established to get due process of law.

DHJenkins
June 30, 2009, 07:07 PM
I live in Texas. I'm not worried about it.

Besides, it's like my grandad said - "it's just money - you can always make more".

feedthehogs
June 30, 2009, 07:26 PM
Armed Citizensí Legal Defense Network

Save your 85 bucks.

They are nothing but a consulting firm. If your attorney needs help, then find a new attorney.

Putting your assets in trusts protects your money.
Think like the Rockefellers, control everything, own nothing(trusts)

Live in a state or get your state to protect you against suits in a justified shoot.

Some personal liability umbrella policies cover legal expenses.

But remember in 95% of legal help, you get what you pay for.

browningguy
June 30, 2009, 08:18 PM
I can.

I can also afford to pay for a countersuit.

Bobarino
June 30, 2009, 08:22 PM
in Washington we have this law

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime -- Reimbursement.

(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

(2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.

(3) Notwithstanding a finding that a defendant's actions were justified by self-defense, if the trier of fact also determines that the defendant was engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the charges filed against the defendant the judge may deny or reduce the amount of the award. In determining the amount of the award, the judge shall also consider the seriousness of the initial criminal conduct.

Nothing in this section precludes the legislature from using the sundry claims process to grant an award where none was granted under this section or to grant a higher award than one granted under this section.

(4) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section is decided by a judge, the judge shall consider the same questions as must be answered in the special verdict under subsection (4) [(5)] of this section.

(5) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section has been submitted to a jury, and the jury has found the defendant not guilty, the court shall instruct the jury to return a special verdict in substantially the following form:


answer yes or no
1. Was the finding of not guilty based upon self-defense? . . . . .
2. If your answer to question 1 is no, do not answer the remaining question.
3. If your answer to question 1 is yes, was the defendant:
a. Protecting himself or herself? . . . . .
b. Protecting his or her family? . . . . .
c. Protecting his or her property? . . . . .
d. Coming to the aid of another who was in imminent danger of a heinous crime? . . . . .
e. Coming to the aid of another who was the victim of a heinous crime? . . . . .
f. Engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the crime with which the defendant is charged? . . . . .

best to be darn sure you are in the right.

Bobby

denfoote
June 30, 2009, 09:25 PM
ARS 13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.


ARS 13-413. No civil liability for justified conduct

No person in this state shall be subject to civil liability for engaging in conduct otherwise justified pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp

MT GUNNY
June 30, 2009, 09:51 PM
The way things are going, Maybe some day tax payers will pay it for you!

bear71
July 1, 2009, 11:44 AM
"There should be insurance for this like there is with cars and houses. For defense counsel purposes only, not to pay liabilities because of a wrongful shoot.

I think the premium cost could be really low, since there are very very few justifiable defense shootings that end up in law suits. And even when they do, the costs are pretty limited (no attorney is going to want $1,000,000 to defend you, such as is often awarded in negligent injury/homicide cases). And since the insurance wouldn't cover your damages if found guilty, the costs can be mitigated down to the thousands instead of unknown amounts to be determined after trial."

Excellent post, Roost. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Animal Mother
July 1, 2009, 02:33 PM
Given the hypothetical choice between being broke or being dead, and I'll choose to be broke every time.

RP88
July 1, 2009, 02:37 PM
it would beat being dead...

blackbearaddict
July 1, 2009, 03:27 PM
there will be a$$e$ smokin with buckshot as i drop

CCWB
July 1, 2009, 04:12 PM
I never understood that. You're found guilty but instead of going to jail for murder, you pay a few grand! If I'm guilty of justifiable SD and have to pay, good luck on getting a dime out of me! If it's unjustifiable, let me go to jail.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
July 2, 2009, 12:51 PM
i can't afford that by any means right now, but i hold my life and family higher then money. but thats just me.

TaurusTX
July 2, 2009, 01:14 PM
In Texas, I belong to CHL Protection Plan (chlpp.com). The promise is that if I don't violate any law, they will defend me in court. My CHL instructor recommended them to me.

I'm happy to say I have had no need for their services, so far. The closest I have come was when a policeman stopped me for an expired inspection sticker. I was carrying so I hander over my DL, CHL, and insurance proof at the same time. He looked them all over and told me how to handle the expired sticker.

There is no question that I would still be carrying if I didn't have this coverage. Better in a law suit than a coffin.

For what it's worth, the customer service number for chlpp is 866-851-9744.

danbrew
July 2, 2009, 01:37 PM
That reminds me, I need to get some Moon Rock Insurance sometime this week. You know, in case a moon rock hits me on the head.

Would probably be a wise move to remove the testimonial on their website from their National Sales Director. That's kind of like Big Al from Big Al's Tires telling you he knows a great place to get a deal on tires.

:D

chuckusaret
July 2, 2009, 01:53 PM
Thank god for the Castle Law here in Florida.

george29
July 2, 2009, 05:21 PM
Think about a living will or incorporate now before something happens.

TIMC
July 2, 2009, 07:16 PM
...$15,000 in attorney fees in a criminal defense and an additional $15,000 in a civil defense on your behalf in a completely justifiable defensive shooting.

15K is nothing for the privilage of being alive tomorrow or being able to hug my wife and children who might not be here if I didn't defend them.

The 15K civil defense part we don't really have to worry about here in Texas if it was a justifiable shoot, we have a law against that now.

The Annoyed Man
July 2, 2009, 08:31 PM
I could manage it, but it would hurt.

FlyinBryan
July 2, 2009, 08:49 PM
honestly, i could afford it.

it wouldnt be easy, and thats not pocket change, but i could do it.

i had a motorcycle accident that required surgury a few years back and it was a similar deal.

i didnt have insurance, it was a dirtbike, and i needed it for my left ankle.

the dr. would not do it till i came up with just under 13k.

he said i didnt have to have it to live, but would if i ever wanted to flex my ankle again.

so for 3 weeks i would wake up with my left foot pointed the wrong way while raising it. nightmare in real life. gotta love our health care system, but i really cant complain. i did it.

i couldnt wear a hard cast till after the surgury because of swelling issues. i will never forget asking the dr "how many places is it broken?" his reply? "imagine your fibula and tibia, from the shin down, as being pea gravel"

alrighty then!!!!!

had to come up with cash for the hardware, anesthesiologist, facility, recovery, and 50% of the orthopedic surgeons fees, which amounted around 13k.

i sold things (motorcycles)

sorry for being sorta off topic, but its kinda the same as far as the money goes.

i would sell thing again if i had to. but honestly, i could probably swing it.

of course i wouldnt even think about it with gary gangster kicking my door in. he would be in a bigger hurry to get back out.

he wouldnt make it.

waldonbuddy
July 3, 2009, 05:47 PM
I was discussing this post with my brother who lives in a state that has castle laws. If one were living in a state with said law then would you be protected? What about civil cases that might follow?

mgkdrgn
July 3, 2009, 06:21 PM
I was discussing this post with my brother who lives in a state that has castle laws. If one were living in a state with said law then would you be protected? What about civil cases that might follow?

IF you brother lives in a state with a properly constructed "Castle Doctrine" statute (like South Carolina), if there are no criminal charges in an SD shooting then no civil suits can brought.

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