Mea culpa


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starkadder
June 29, 2009, 11:59 PM
I have only been a member of this forum for a few months and I really enjoy reading and replying to the posts here. Some of the other gun forums are so full of mall ninjas and wanna be gun slingers that it's sickening. Recently I was asked by one of the admistrators to explain one of my sig lines that has been causing some discomfort to a few of the other members, I explained the meaning and replied that if they would rather me not use it I would abide by that. This is the line and my reply:

Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

Sir,
I do not want anyone to think that I am advocating the taking of a human life, I an a christian man and I value human life with the utmost respect and would never take a mans life unless all other options have been exhausted. This "line" was taught to me by my Grandfather who was an LEO for many years, although he was not an educated man he was a practical man and spoke acordingly. his meaning was that if you carry a gun you also carry great responsibility and that you should never draw that weapon unless you have no other chioce or options and if you do fire that weapon your action could and most prabably will cause the death of that person. That was his way of teaching us that guns are not to be waved or paraded around and that they are allways capible of killing. If you ask me not to use this line in the future I will not. It is good advice if you read between the lines, but today so many people do not even read the lines let alone what's between them

If I have offended anyone with this I appoligize, that was never my intent. You would be hard pressed to find a person who values the life of another more than me, I have carried a gun for the last twelve years, and in that time I have had to draw my weapon twice.
Thank God that in both situations I did not have to fire, simply producing it ended the issue, in both cases I would have been legally justified in firing, and in many peoples opinion morally justified. But the thought of taking a mans life just because you feel justified sickens me.
The ONLY reason that a man has the right to take anothers life is when he or the ones around him lives are in mortal danger, not because you feel threatened, or to protect your property, or any of the other reasons I have heard for (blowing someone away)
I had the terrible misfortune of watching a good friend die because of an insult, it was a sensless act that took the life of a great guy that had a big future ahead of him and left a grieving wife and a little girl who will never know her father.
No one out there should ever take lightly the resposability that comes with a gun because even if you think that the person you shoot is the biggest low-life criminal piece of s**t on the planet, someone will grieve for that person and it will change more lives than you might think, including you own.

I can tell you from experience that you may fancy yourself tough as nails or the origional Billy Badass, but when you are forced to put another man in the sights of your weapon, even if you don't have to fire you will feel more sick than you ever thought you could feel and if you don't then your not human.

In closing I want to appologize once again if I have offended any of you, it was just a teaching phrase from an old country cop to his grandson.


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cchris
June 30, 2009, 12:26 AM
even if you think that the person you shoot is the biggest low-life criminal piece of s**t on the planet, someone will grieve for that person and it will change more lives than you might think, including you own.

I couldn't agree more. Even though people may think of me as an idiot for not having HD rounds, I can't bring myself to load my gun with anything more than FMJ. I don't know what it's like to be in those situations, but when someone you know dies and you see the pain in the eyes of those close to them, you think twice about something like that. Sure, I'm an unexperienced college kid, but I value human life a great deal. I can't treat people like anything less than human beings with their own life, which is why I could never use someone for something.

And if I feel guilty for doing so much as accepting something that someone purchases me, that sure makes me think twice about whether I could really shoot (or even shoot at) someone.

I work with a kid who spent a few years in juvenile detention for shooting someone. Now that he's out, he wants to buy a gun. I'm doing my best to go against what I say to everyone else, but in this case, I know that if he has one, he'll be irresponsible and shoot someone. In short, being anti-gun in front of this kid (I'm the supervisor for a group of kids that have committed related crimes and such) is the most responsible course of action - as hypocritical as it may be, it's the right thing to do.

I apologize for getting off on a tangent, but that post really made me think - about the responsibility that I have as a gun owner, and the responsibility that I have as a role model. Those might conflict with each other, but it's something that itself requires responsibility to fulfill.

hso
June 30, 2009, 12:34 AM
No one should want to kill someone else, but the mindset that we have to develop is that we're ready to accept the heavy responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm to stop a threat to our lives. Use of lethal force obligates each of us to consider all the consequences, not just to the person we may shoot, but to ourselves and those dear to us. That means we have to accept that carrying a gun means we may be put in the position where we kill an attacker to stop the threat.

his meaning was that if you carry a gun you also carry great responsibility and that you should never draw that weapon unless you have no other chioce or options and if you do fire that weapon your action could and most prabably will cause the death of that person. That was his way of teaching us that guns are not to be waved or paraded around and that they are allways capible of killing.

Your grandfather's wisdom was sound, but not everyone would understand how the words were meant.

Boba Fett
June 30, 2009, 12:41 AM
Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

Makes sense to me.


hso sums it up nicely:
That means we have to accept that carrying a gun means we may be put in the position where we kill an attacker to stop the threat.

Titan6
June 30, 2009, 12:44 AM
I don't know about all that. There really are some people who don't really need to go on living. You might think you will feel bad about it but then again you might not. I would say until you have met the truly evil and sat down and talked to them about it you should reserve a little judgment.

I think the OPs maxim is 100% correct and he does not have to apologize for anything. Just keep in mind that "plan to" and "doing" are two different things, and that even pulling a gun is "using" it.

kingpin008
June 30, 2009, 11:51 AM
Personally, I don't see a need to apologize. In fact, I'm kind of shocked that there were members here who were offended enough to contact a Moderator about it.

Some people are too easily offended, I guess.

In summary, I think Titan6 put it best:

Just keep in mind that "plan to" and "doing" are two different things, and that even pulling a gun is "using" it.

Omaney
June 30, 2009, 12:08 PM
Put the sig line back...it's sage advice.

theotherwaldo
June 30, 2009, 12:09 PM
The flip-side of that argument is that you are also responsible for not pulling and using your weapon if that is your choice. Then, by being armed and not using your weapon, you are responsible for the consequences of that non-action.

That can be even harder on your conscience.

rodensouth
June 30, 2009, 01:02 PM
My father explained the serious nature of drawing a weapon in the same way. There is no more effective way to describe what should be on your mind as you make the decision to draw or not.

The shots most effective at stopping a threat are to the CNS, which will most often cause mortality. There are instructors who teach placement of shots in center mass followed quickly by CNS shots. Unfortunately, if I try to shoot them in the head, I am in fact trying to kill.

If some people do not understand that the statement is meant to impart the gravity of the situation, and not to glorify killing, then they are the ones who lack clarity IMHO.

Walkalong
June 30, 2009, 01:09 PM
I noticed your sig line, and wasn't wild about it. Sounds like someone who wants to kill someone. I think it is unnapropriate, but did not complain etc. It's a free country, and until the Mods here say it is not OK, it is. I would ecourage you to change it if you asked my opinion, and opinions are what it looks like you want here. I agree that sometimes the bad guys leave good guys no choice but to kill, but not many, if any, good guys want to, they just will if they have to.

If I have to defend myself, I am trying to stop them, and if it takes killing them to stop them, so be it, but I am not planning to kill. AC

lions
June 30, 2009, 01:25 PM
Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!
When I read it I understand it as you explained it. However, maybe you could rephrase it to eliminate any confusion over your intended meaning.

Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't have to kill!

I think those are wise words by your grandfather, unfortunately, it is easy to take a single line written on the web out of context.

EDIT: I originally suggested changing "kill" to "defend your life", but I think your grandfather intentionally said kill, not for a lack of a better word, but because it best states the seriousness of having to draw your gun.

Phatty
June 30, 2009, 01:39 PM
I knew what your sig meant. However, I can see how it could be misconstrued, and it could probably be worded differently to more clearly express your intent.

If I was in the unfortunate situation of having to defend myself in court for a self-defense killing, I would not feel comfortable having that sig line paraded in front of the jury.

Here's an example of how it could be misconstrued:
A mugger confronts you on a street, waives a knife at you, and demands all your money or he will kill you. In response, you draw your pistol and point it at him. He gets scared, drops his knife, raises his hands and starts walking backwards away from you saying, "Don't shoot. Don't shoot." Unfortunately for that would-be mugger, you live by the motto "If you pull your gun, plan on shooting to kill." So you shoot the guy.

That's the prosecutor's story. In reality, maybe the guy charged at you with the knife and you were forced to shoot him and it was completely justified.

Jamie C.
June 30, 2009, 02:11 PM
Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

I suppose that for the people who think a gun is just some kind of "magic wand" that will make an attacker go away simply by waving it at them, this is horrifying and offensive.

For those of us that understand that using a gun for self-defense comes with the willingness and burden of being responsible for taking some one else's life... it's just plain common sense, and nothing too surprising or shocking.

I can see where those too caught up in being PC, or who have "delicate sensibilities", might be traumatized by the bluntness of it though. But to me, those people are as much a problem as the criminals themselves, since they only serve to shield or enable those criminals, even if they don't intend to.

Anyway, I'm certainly not going to claim or pretend that, if I draw a weapon in self-defense, I'm not doing so with the full intention of killing whoever or whatever has caused me to draw it. If the situation changes so that death is no longer required as a remedy, great. But the understanding that it is a potential solution/outcome should to be there just the same, before the weapon is ever drawn.



J.C.

SCKimberFan
June 30, 2009, 02:42 PM
There are those who will get their panties in a wad no matter what. I do not think an apology was warranted.

However, since you asked, we (me & those who agree) forgive you.

rduckwor
June 30, 2009, 02:56 PM
An old Texas Ranger once told me: "Son, you shoot them down to the ground."

Interpret as you wish and discuss among yourselves.

RMD

Blackbeard
June 30, 2009, 03:08 PM
I think the objectable word in your sig is "plan". No responsible person plans to kill anyone. You should rephrase it as, "don't use it if you're not prepared to kill."

Dravur
June 30, 2009, 03:19 PM
even if you think that the person you shoot is the biggest low-life criminal piece of s**t on the planet, someone will grieve for that person and it will change more lives than you might think, including you own.

The only way it would change my life would be if I had to go to court to defend myself from the POS' relatives. Other than that, I will soon forget about the POS, that he even existed and won't give a rat's behind that he ever existed. I also won't care for one second how this affected anyone else. I wont care what his relatives think, who he left homeless or whoever he left behind.

He chose to do something stupid, he paid the price, end of story. I may be callous, but hey, I honestly don't give a crap about most humanity anyway.

Titan6
June 30, 2009, 04:34 PM
I don't know about that Blackbeard. Just about everyone I know is super responsible yet many of them plan to kill people all the time.

Schofield3
June 30, 2009, 04:39 PM
Personally, I don't see a need to apologize. In fact, I'm kind of shocked that there were members here who were offended enough to contact a Moderator about it.

+1
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