[Col. Plink]

Hey y'all,

Looking for some feedback, whatever flavor you have to offer, on the Saiga 12. Pretty well sold on it already, but wondering what to expect of if there's a big reason not to invest in one.

Haven't seen much in 'conversion' concerns about the 12(?); also looking for advice regarding mags (capacity, availability, price, 922r implications). Shooting experience?

Thanks in advance!

[Pizzagunner]

I'd say go for it, but they're over hyped as the be all end all of combat shotguns. The one I shot at a range session was poorly balanced overall swinging from one target to the next and it sucked in recoil/return to target during a mag of slugs.

Verdict? Cool, especially with light target loads, but I'll stick with pumps and conventional semis.

[ScareyH22A]

It has its advantages if you think you need to combat reload during a firefight. A bit quicker against a reloading a pump action w/o special tools or competitive training. But you don't have to top off a mag tube to fire a round so...

[Col. Plink]

so..?

[VA27]

Cool lookin' and kinda fun, but I traded mine for a Benelli M1.

[Sam1911]

Two of the guys I shoot with at least once a week have them, and both have done the conversion "back" to AKM style.

Both of them have had a certain amount of difficulty getting them to cycle reliably with various loads. One of them is now running reliably with a little work done to clean up the gas ports. The other is newer and, so far, has not been able to cycle about 50% of the time with lighter loads.

Both of the owners are accomplished shooters and amateur gun-plumbers*, so if they have had some rough spots getting these to function reliably, it causes me to take some notice.

They are very interesting guns, and probably worth any teething pains you might have to go through, but they are still a range toy, IMHO, and not really a dependable go-to type of shotgun. Fun, but not what I'd grab for home-defense or use in an important match.

Your mileage will almost certainly vary.

-Sam

(* -- One of the two has a couple dozen AK builds under his belt, including the AKS-74 he helped me build, as well as more creative stuff like semi-auto M1919 and MG-42s. His insights on reliable semi-auto operation are worthwhile in my eyes.)

[Col. Plink]

just the sort of info i needed, thanks! I am NOT a gun-plumber, and can only boast of successful breakdown, cleaning, and reassembly of my fairly rudimentary weapons. I'm guessing the Russian military uses them because they have guys that can tune 'em up real nice (or they all have to be able to).

When you say 'difficulty cycling lighter loads,' what sort of loads would that be?

For clarity's sake, I would likely never cycle anything but HD loads (slugs, buckshot, magnum T).

[MAX100]

I have had mine for about 2 months and it has been very reliable, No reliability problems what so ever. I have only fired WalMart Federal Value packs out of it. The gas setting needs to be set on 1 for lighter loads.

I would grab one while you can because the price will only go up /l\. I like it and plan to keep it.


GC

[cchris]

Actually, the price is dropping now. I was hard-pressed to find one for under $600 a couple months ago (out of stock), and saw them for $700+ in stock, but now they have them in stock for under $500. The same with the 7.62x39 Saiga - cheapest I found was around $500, and now they have it for $350. I don't think the price will go up, unless another bill gets thrown on the table.

All in all, the concept is cool. Never shot one, but its one of two mass-produced box magazine shotguns out there, and the other costs over a grand. If there was a threat that war would break out in the U.S., yes, this would be a definite plus to have (along with about 20 extra mags).

[mr.scott]

Having shot a converted one, no thanks. I'm usually not bother by recoil, but the Saiga-12 can be brutal with certain loads.

[Geneseo1911]

My S-12 is the funnest gun I own. It doesn't matter if I'm blasting buckshot, blazing through cheap ammo, shooting Starlings (God's clay pigeons), or loading 2 rounds at a time & shooting skeet, the thing always puts a huge smile on my face. A couple 10 rd. ProMags (which require a little tuning as well) and they can't be beat.

My Saiga cycled heavy loads 100% right out of the box. It was built late in '08, after the so-called "vodka specials". I think after the problems many of the earlier '08 guns had, they figured out how to configure them and cleared up most of the cycling issues. After a couple hundred rounds through the gun, it will now cycle loads even down to 7/8 oz with no problem. It does take a while to get the rough edges smoothed out, but at this point I would trust it completely for self defense.

I paid $550 for mine, it appears as though they have come down a bit and the going rate is now about $500. This is up a couple hundred from 2-3 years ago. IMO, even at the current price they are worth it. It gets attention everywhere I take it, and it has been loads of fun.

ETA: to answer you original ?s
I assume you've found www.forum.saiga-12.com ? If not, it has all the info you'll ever need on conversion, from instructions to parts sources.

regarding mags; get a few of the Taiwanese 5-rounders they sell at www.saiga-12.com . These are nearly identical to the factory 5s. For extended capacity, there are three major brands: Surefire, AGP, and Pro-Mag. The PMs are about $20 cheaper than anyone else, but the followers are crap. You have to get a heat gun (S-12 forum guys use a wine cork & boiling water) and stretch them both side-side & front-back. If they are too narrow, they'll pop out the top of the body, and too short they'll tilt & bind. Or you could just spend $50-60/ea. and get SF/AGPs. Availability was about zero 4 months ago, but they all seem to be in stock now.

And don't forget the drum! (http://mdarms.com)

If you use a US made >5 rnd mag, you'll need one more US part for 922r. The gas piston is the easiest & cheapest route. If you convert to PG, check the other forum to figure it out. I've kept mine in it's "sporter" config as I'm not convinced I would like a PG shotgun. The trigger is terrible, but on a SG I don't care that much. I'd love to get a second one and try to build an underfolder:evil:; maybe if they get back down to $350.

[MAX100]

The price will go up. There has been hundreds imported this year and there is a surplus for now. As soon as those sale and they become hard to get again the price will go up. You could get one for around $350 a few years ago.

The best time to buy is when they are easy to get, wait and you will pay more.


GC

[jackdanson]

I've had mine for over a year, it's great fun. Reloading isn't quite as easy as just snapping another mag in, but with a little practice you can change them pretty quickly.

I have no problems with cycling if I have the gas setting right. I've only shot milsurp buckshot and cheap walmart target loads through it... both cycle it fine if you have the gas setting right.

but the Saiga-12 can be brutal with certain loads

I kindly disagree, the recoil really is bad at all for a 12 gauge... if you dump a mag it "adds up", but the recoil firing 1 shot at a time is less than any pump I've ever shot.

My verdict, it's fun, not practical, but fun.

[D Boone]

I've had one about 3-4 yrs now? It has sat in my safe after I converted it back to akm, gets shot occasionally when company comes over. I am unwilling to get rid of it, but if needed for defense, hunting, or combat, I really think there are better shotties out there. If wanted for fun/investment etc then its a great arm. If you need better direction doing conversion try the saiga12 forums, but its a pretty simple process until you get up front if you wanted to convert handguards. Good luck, have fun.

[NoAlibi]

I don't know how long my box-stock Saiga 20 sat on a local dealer's shelf, but one day in 2003 I inquired about it. He was honest and told me it was not very reliable (an understatement) and if I gave him $200 for it I would be obliged to remove it from his shop and never have it return. I'm a tinkerer, so the puppy followed me home.

The first drawback is that with the bolt locked back you can't feed a round into the chamber through the ejection port like all the autoloaders that I'm familiar with.

Other drawbacks: The fired round fails to eject with regularity no matter what position the gas setting is on. Feeding from either the 2 3/4" or 3" magazine is very unreliable also.

It seems that it's going to take a lot to bring it up to snuff, but since it looks cool and I have so little money into it will just hang on a wall as a curio for right now. :cool:

My buddy just bought a converted one (He is ashamed to tell me how much he paid for it.) and several very expensive magazines and says it's the cat's a$$! ;)

I'm going to see him next week and see what it's going to take to get mine that way.

[Aka Zero]

I have a saiga 12, did not "convert" it, but do have a pistol grip stock on it. Easy us made part for 922r. Easily one of my most fun to shoot guns.

Have to use US made 10 rnd mags though, until I get 1 more compliance part. Probably a poly choke, then I can swap parts in my mags so they all have 2 compliance parts each.

But I have never had any issues with my gun. Had it stove pipe on 2 rounds the first day I shot it. But that was the cheapest things from walmart, federal target loads. Did a little polish on the bolt and things. Never had a problem since.

And I would recommend the AGP mags, they have metal feed lips like the 5 rounders you get with the gun. And they seem a bit stronger than the other brands as well.

I will admit, would not be the shotgun for a lot of situations, but in HD I hope I don't need more than 10 rounds of buckshot.

[Jack2427]

First of all, the Russian military does NOT use them. The Saiga SG is a concept peculiar to the US. Their military does not use them for a reason, they are nowhere near reliable enough for military/LE use.
There is a reason that no US maker uses box mags for a shotgun,did anyone think that this was an idea that originated with the Russians? The US military attempted to get a functional box mag for Remington 1100 and 870s for years back in the late 70s-early 80s. The reason? Obvious quick reloads with the box mag. They diddled with full auto SGs at the same time.
But the mag is also one of the weak points with a SG, it tends to compres the shells till they are out of round, then they jam, badly. If a partially out of round shell is pushed part way into the chamber, you are going to have to pound it out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle, could be kind of inconvenient under some circumstances.
Shotgun shells are built to handle compression from end to end, not sideways. Makes sense when you think about it.
I have a Saiga, it is fun to shoot, but you cannot leave a loaded mag around for a long time like you can a loaded tubular mag without a chance of out of round shells in the box mag. If the spring is weak enough not to compress the shells, then it is too weak to provide reliable feeding from the mag.

[lipadj46]

First of all, the Russian military does NOT use them. The Saiga SG is a concept peculiar to the US. Their military does not use them for a reason, they are nowhere near reliable enough for military/LE use.

They are used at the special forces level and are very reliable with buckshot and slug loads. They were designed with those heavy loads in mind not Winchester bulk pack ammo. They are not inherently reliable as an AK rifle just due to trying to fit a 12 gauge shell into a rifle length receiver. People are having issues of late because Izhmash sent over a batch of under gassed shotguns. RAAC will warrantee any shotgun that is unreliable, call Clyde at RAAC.

Also I will add ergos are much improved when converted but if you don't like AKs you will not like the S12.

The problem with Saiga 12's is that they are $350 shotguns selling for $600. For $350 people deal with doing a little polishing work but at $600 a regular old uninclined bubba will just slap it like a monkey and say "it don't work good".

[maroast]

It's a project gun. It's also a bit of a novelty.

If you want to rip open the box and be done with it, this gun may not be for you. Don't get me wrong it works fine right out of the box, but its a great gun to tinker with and customize (just like dirt bikes/ motorcycles).

I have one and love it.... but I love wrenching on my toys (I'm actually making a walnut grip and fore-grip for it right now). It's been to the range a couple of times, but I haven't shot clays with it yet.

As for cycling different loads, you can buy this 4 position hand adjustable gas plug to replace the stock 2 position plug). It's easy and it works. Also checkout http://forum.saiga-12.com/ for more info.

http://www.mdarms.com/ProdImages/gasplug_lg.jpg


heres a crappy pic of mine....it's a work in progress...but then again I like having projects.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Z4ehflEmhuc/ShOCYmpYoNI/AAAAAAAAAxc/Pj3-RyRA3Cg/s800/DSC00315.JPG

[rocinante]

I have an S12 and have put a lot of money into it because it is unique and fun to tinker with. Sucks at skeet, too odd to stomp around in the woods with, too expensive to get confiscated as evidence if I shot somebody with it. It is not practical for anything but urban combat and out and out SHTF. In that case holed up with my 20 round drum takes care of my katrina and zombie nightmares pretty well.

Mine goes bang everytime as long as you don't use some light target rounds. It is a fun gun. Blowing through a magazine as fast as you can is a rush :)

[rocinante]

double tap

[Gunfighter123]

Col. Plink,
Just do a search for Saiga S-12 here on the SG forum --- you will find that nearly all the people Who Own Them are very happy with them. And then there is the other camp !!!

[Girodin]

I'll add my thoughts on the pros and cons of the S12 later when I have some time. I must address the following however.

Having shot a converted one, no thanks. I'm usually not bother by recoil, but the Saiga-12 can be brutal with certain loads.

I am astonished to read that. I have shot a fairly wide variety of shotguns, not as wides as others I am sure, but a fair number of different types and models. I consider the S12 to be one of the softer shooting shotguns I have fired. I'm not a recoil junky but I can rapid fire ten slug or 00 buck rounds and not be bothered in the least.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

it's a fun gun but will not reliably cycle low brass or birdshot, etc. it's a great gun but will require some work to make it back to AKM style as it's meant to be, which is only about 2-3 hrs of work and $100-200 depending on furniture. Many great builds but it's also a gun adored by mall ninjas and you will see some HORRENDOUS railed monstrosities with light, laser, bipod, vfg, optics, and the ultimate in mall ninja accessories the "chaos porky pine"

honestly though it's a good, fun gun if you do a SIMPLE conversion. But not reliable or practical for SD and definitely not military/LE use. It's only use would be a gun for the Zombie Apocalypse.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

It is also worth mentioning that the 20 round drum everyone brags about, the MD20, costs over $400 (if you can find one)

[Geneseo1911]

It is also worth mentioning that the 20 round drum everyone brags about, the MD20, costs over $400 (if you can find one)

BS-

$260 shipping next day

http://www.mdarms.com

[Girodin]

The first question one should ask before buying an S12 is whether or not they like projects. An S12 worth owning will be a project. That or one must spend some additional coin paying someone else to do the work for them.

I own/have owned a number of S12s. I like them for what they are. Many of the criticisms I see are based on not understanding what the S12 is or wanting it to be something it is not. It is not a hunting gun. I know people who have taken deer, turkeys and various game birds with an S12. It can be used for hunting. I am not saying it cannot fill that role. I am saying there are better choices. I might use my S12 for hunting for the fun of doing so but I have other shotguns that are much better suited for hunting. It is not a skeet or clay gun. Again one might be able to use it for that, maybe even be successful doing so but there are much better choices. Critiquing an S12 for being a poor hunting or clay gun is like critiquing a Prius for having a poor payload, a one ton truck for not riding like a caddy or a Ferrari for being an impractical daily driver. I really like my S12s (and my other saigas as well) and think much of the criticism they receive is silly. I do not however believe they are the end all be all of shotguns. The following is my off the cuff thoughts on the pros and cons of the S12.

Cons:

QUALITY CONTROL Perhaps the biggest con is very poor quality control. The quality control is poor enough that I would dismiss all definitive claims about what to expect with a Saiga. Some claim they won’t run bird shot well. I have had one that came out of the box and ran a box of light target bird shot with out a hitch. I have another that I when new wouldn’t eject a single round of it. I have seen some with canted sights and poor finishes and others that were flawless. Then there is the batch of guns with an insufficient number of gas ports. In the past some guns have had obstructed gas ports as well. Warranty work is available but it is admittedly a pain and annoying to have to send of a new gun. These guns used to sell for a few hundred dollars. The price increase reflects an increase in demand not quality of construction.

IT WILL NEED WORK As I said above these are in my mind project guns. They are a good base to build a great shotgun. Out of the box they are okay but IMO not really worth the money they command. Someone who wants an out of the box gun should pass on the S12 or decide if a professional conversion is worth the money to them. At a minimum one can plan on doing a basic conversion. A basic conversion makes huge improvements on areas where the stock gun is critiqued: trigger, balance, looks. A basic conversion makes the gun much more useful IMO. It also allows for higher capacity mags which is one appeal of the S12. This is not really difficult but does require a willingness to drill and cut on a brand new gun. It also requires some additional money for the parts.

Beyond the basic conversion one might want to do the S12 version of a fluff and buff and add gunfixer’s gas plug. These things will have most guns running well with lighter loads. Other areas that to me are worth addressing are the poor factory sights (multiple replacement options exist), adding some for of choke be it a polychoke, threading the gun or the use of an adapter for winchokes. I am currently considering adding a mag well to my S12 that allows for one to insert the mags like in an AR as opposed to the rock and lock. I am also considering refinishing one of my saigas and if I like the results doing all the others

POOR FIT AND FINISH As I noted above the S12 has become popular and its price has rapidly inflated. The fit and finish is what one would expect from a gun that cost a few hundred. The most I have paid for one is $450. The gun simply is not a $600-800 gun in its stock form. When one compares it to what can be purchased for that the fit and finish is disappointing. In short it looks and feels like it ought to cost $350. Is it worth 500-550 or even more? Well that depends on if you believe it will be worth the $1000-$1500 gun you can turn it into.

AK ERGOS: For me this is not really a con per se. I have AKM platform rifles and if one is familiar and schooled in the operation of the platform the can be run quickly and easily. That said I know some people hate AK ergos. They will therefore hate the S12’s. The lay out and controls are largely the same on a converted S12.

MAGS ARE EXPENSIVE if you have decided to get an S12 it is because you see an advantage or appeal in a box mag fed shotgun. The disappointment is that said mags are not inexpensive particularly for the 10 round variety. As noted the drum cost over $200. Buying 10 mags will shoot the price of the gun up a considerable amount. With out a spare mag the gun loses what many see as its advantage over a tube fed gun.

PROS

IT IS A FUN PROJECT If you like to customize stuff or make things work better then you’ll likely love and S12. There are so many options of how to set them up one can truly make it there own. Also when compared to the money spent on a more expensive out of the box gun (say a benelli) one can have a gun set up exactly as they like it and tailored to them personal. Kind of like going to Bangkok and getting a custom suit vs buying an off the rack name brand.

CYCLE RATE: This may not really mater in terms of practicality but I believe the S12 is the fastest cycling shotgun out there. It is shocking how quickly one can fire 10 or even twenty rounds. This may only count for a lot in the grin factor though. I have never let someone shoot my S12 that didn’t think it was lots of fun.

SOFT SHOOTING: The S12 is in my experience a very soft shooting gun. I can shoot a lot of rounds of buckshot or slugs without feeling beat up. I could probably shoot bird shot target loads literally all day long and be no worse for wear. Compared to my 870s or mossberg the S12 is much more pleasurable to shoot a high number of slugs or buckshot.

AKM LOOKS: This may not be a pro for everyone but I would wager that a great number of the people who are attracted to the S12 find its looks incredibly appealing. It is after all in essence and AKM shotgun. To me a properly converted S12 is really cool looking. It will get looks at the range or any other place.

RELOAD SPEED: This gets a fair amount a debate about how much of an advantage it is versus a tube fed gun. Do a search and read the debates. I have no desire to rehash or even summarize them again here. I do believe it is undeniable that one could fire 20 or more rounds through an S12 much faster than a tube fed gun. Now that only matters if one is going to fire that many rounds and needs to do so quickly. Most of us don’t need to. Most home defense situations won’t call for that. It is an advantage few of us need. It is perhaps most applicable to three gun competition and that is why the S12 bumps one into the open class automatically.

YOU DECIDE

Is a box mag an advantage or a not. There are people who argue for one side or the other. Personally I believe it has advantages and a few drawbacks. I don’t care to engage in the debate. I believe too much is made of many of the supposed draw backs. I also believe the advantages only present themselves in certain applications and scenarios, ones that don’t apply to most shooters. In short one needs to familiarize themselves with the issues and decide for themselves. I might advise by actually using exemplars of both and giving each a fair shake, something many seem not to have done.


NON ISSUES

Jay-Z famously said I got 99 problems but a ______ aint one. There are some things that I believe the critics harp on that are not really a problem at all. They are as follows:

Top shell deformation. Yes it can happen but there are many easy ways to fix or prevent this IF one is experiencing it.

922r Compliance. 922r is actually pretty easy to understand and very easy to comply with. Seeing as the gun needs to be converted anyhow it is easily kept compliant. I believe 922r is actually a much bigger issues for a Benelli than a saiga. Don’t stick 10(+) rounders in your stock gun and do some quick research on 922r and you’ll be fine especially with the shotgun and its domestically made 10(+) round mags.

SUMMARY

The S12 is to me a fighting shotgun (or for sports simulating that such as 3 gun). It is a poor choice for hunting, clays, etc. One can press it into those roles but there are IMO much, much better choices. The S12 can be a very serviceable weapon. It is a viable choice for home defense and a very formidable weapon. For home defense I do not believe it holds a notable advantage over a number of other shotguns though. A mossy or 870 is just as serviceable and much less expensive and much less work. As always the shooters skills and familiarity with the weapon are more important than the weapon its self. Finally if you end up not liking it you should have little trouble reselling it provided you haven’t butchered it.

[Girodin]

BTW reading No Alibi's post made me think to add that the Saiga 20 is a beast unto its self and has very different issues than the S12. The S20 is the one saiga (well that the the 30'06 and the slant cut .308) that I don't own. I have no plans to purchase one either. The lack parts availability and from what I can gather seem to be less reliable than the 12s. There are fixes and options for them but I am much less familiar with the S20 than all the other saigas.

[bobotech]

It is also worth mentioning that the 20 round drum everyone brags about, the MD20, costs over $400 (if you can find one)

Huh?? WTH are you talking about. 260 dollars at MDarms website and they have them in stock.

[SN13]

Wow, i was going to lay into that dude about "...the 20 round drum everyone brags about, the MD20, costs over $400 (if you can find one)" since MDarms has it IN STOCK for $260.

Thankfully, others beat me too it.

Ok here's the deal with the S12, (i've owned 6 of them).

They are $300 shotguns that sell for $500+. For $150 you can convert it yourself to a pistol gripped/fixed stock gun. For $200 you can buy 4 or 5 10rd Mags. So for Under $1,000 you can get a sweet gun. Or you can buy a Benelli M4 for $1200+.

My open S12 is right at $1750 with Mags, Optics, Irons, Chokes, Conversion, Brakes, Magwell.

[chuckusaret]

I had one for a short time and it got the nickname of "Sad Saiga" at the range. I might have just gotten a lemon but it was not relieble, continuious cycle problems, poor balance and wicked recoil. I would not recommend this gun for any type of self defense use.

[SN13]

Chuckusaret, do you make it down to Ft. Lauderdale any? Do you know of any location in ft.laud or WPB that will allow rapid fire AND bird shot?

Indoor ranges you can rapid fire but only with Slugs and Buck... outdoor you can shoot bird but you have to shoot SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

Any ideas Chuck?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It's got both: Cheers are speed, reliability, accessories. Jeers are weight, poor ergos (unless you spend a lot of money), and disadvantage relative to tube mag when prone.

[SN13]

Dr. Tad.

Stock Saiga weighs 0.1lb more than a stock Benelli M4 (4+1).
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

You get better Ergos with a conversion... I converted mine for $130. (ALOT of money)

I don't seem to have any issues hitting the targets when prone either. (you know you can tilt guns left and right... they still work. :neener:)

~SN

[EdLaver]

I went with the Mossberg 930 SPX semi-auto 12 gauge, why?

* Carrying multiple Saiga mags would take up weight and space as opposed to just a pocket full of shells.
* The SPX 930 feels and points more natural
* I didn't want to spend an ass load of money on conversions and $60 mags
* Reloading the SPX can be done swiftly if practiced

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Stock Saiga weighs 0.1lb more than a stock Benelli M4 (4+1).
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

OK, I'll buy that.

You get better Ergos with a conversion... I converted mine for $130. (ALOT of money)

Hmmm, what did you manage to get done for $130? I had to pay a LOT more than that to trick it.

I don't seem to have any issues hitting the targets when prone either. (you know you can tilt guns left and right... they still work

Yeah, OK, tilting works, but it's still a slight disadvantage compared to a tube mag.

They're cool, that's for sure! I still say they're heavier than they need to be by the time you add that a solid mount on that side mount base.

[chuckusaret]

Chuckusaret, do you make it down to Ft. Lauderdale any? Do you know of any location in ft.laud or WPB that will allow rapid fire AND bird shot

Sorry, I don't know of any place that allows rapid fire. I have never gone to any ranges south of Palm Beach county.

[Girodin]

* Carrying multiple Saiga mags would take up weight and space as opposed to just a pocket full of shells.

I personally find a loaded box mag easier to carry than loose shells. YMMV.

* I didn't want to spend an ass load of money on conversions and $60 mags

I suppose ass load is relative. Mags although the can be had for less than $60 are expensive and the price should be taken into consideration.

I still say they're heavier than they need to be by the time you add that a solid mount on that side mount base.

There are other methods to mount optics and one that I believe are preferable to a side mount.

[Aka Zero]

Wow this topic is like a tennis game..... back and forth. Good points on both sides.

My saiga, bolt on pistol grip stock, 10 rounders, no choke yet. May not be THE best at anything, but it is my most fun gun.

Mine will cycle cheap wal-mart federal target loads. ($22 per 100, cheapest they had). I have had only 2 stove pipes, first day out, within the first 20 rounds. Both happened on the last round of the mag.

After polishing the bolt, just polish, no grinding. Smoothed out the action a lot, has not had a problem since. Even with 10 rounders. Also used spray can rem oil, and wheel bearing grease on the high traffic parts. Cheap stuff doesn't get enough praise.

I bought my AGP ten rounders, $44 a piece. Might be expensive, But all mags are.

Basically, if I need an HD weapon, I am grabbing a pistol. Much easier to handle than any long gun. Ever tried to open a door with any long gun at the ready?

If I am going to grab a gun for shooting clays, To have fun. Will be the saiga. If I am going to compete. Will be an O/U. Do people realize that things can be fun, even if not proper.

I don't own a pump, I might someday. But If I need a weapon for zombies... it would be the O/U.... Never had a cycling problem in that.

> Also, Anyone know where to get a magwell? Seen them, but not where to get them....

[mes228]

I am using mine as a Home Defense shotgun. In the closet with a loaded ten round mag on the shelf. How long does it take to deform rounds in the mag? If a loaded mag cannot be stored this is a deal breaker for me. After one day at the range it's just been in my closet. I'm looking for real, actual experience with this problem. Any personal experience appreciated. I need to add that I store my Saiga in a rifle rug, bolt open, ready to insert the mag on the shelf. I also keep a Glock on my bed side table. The shell deformation thing, if true, on a mag thats not left in the gun is bothersome.

[gunnie]

the magazine will not deform the rounds unless it is inserted in the reciever under a colsed bolt.

i wonder if it is a good idea to leave the recoil spring compressed for extended periods of time.

go to:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/

for more details

gunnie

[SN13]

Dr. Tad:

For $130 i can buy and install a pistol grip, stock, trigger, trigger guard.

$50 trigger guard.
$17 Saw grip
$30 G2 trigger
$30 Tapco AK buttstock


But my Russian AK Folder cost me like $300 for parts and installation. So you can go basic conversion for $130 or all out conversion for $1000+

[SN13]

mes228,

The rounds do not deform inside the magazine.

Only the top round slightly deforms due to pressure against a CLOSED bolt.

Solutions: Store without mag in the gun or store with bolt open and mag in gun. No fuss no muss.

The recoil spring assembly, like all springs, does not "wear out" by having it compressed.

[Aka Zero]

Mag in gun, open bolt. have not had any problems with mine.

If you put a full mag in, closed bolt. It may deform over time. But I found cycling the first round in was a pain, and it did dent in the plastic on round one a bit. Fired and grouped fine though.

[Mr. Bojangles]

I have owned one for about two years. First of all, the negatives. :cuss:
1. Mine does not cycle well with the cheap Walmart bulk packs. It does well with the $7-8/box stuff, though. Changing the gas setting helps but does not completely remedy this.
2. It is difficult to insert a magazine without the bolt back, and it does not have an automatic hold back mechanism after the last round is fired.
3. Magazines are a bit pricey, about $50 for a 12-rounder, and if kept loaded for extended periods of time the shells will flatten out somewhat, causing feeding problems.
4. Mine required about 150-200 rounds of break-in before it started functioning well.

Now the good stuff:evil:
1. Semiautomatic magazine fed shotgun :D
2. What it lacks in trap shooting accuracy it can make up for with volume.
3. Mine now exceedingly reliable as long as I account for it's weak points.
4. I have never seen a civilian firearm that can destroy stuff as fast as this shotgun can.:what:

Don't expect a completely trouble free experience if you buy one, but I am of the opinion that the rewards are worth the effort involved.

[SN13]

#1 is an issue on some of the newer guns. If you're buying bulk packs, only buy the Federal as they're the most powerful of the value packs.
#2 can be solved with a little practice. It gets much easier once you've realized the technique. (It's 90% technique, 10% practice, 0% strength)
#3 You can buy AGP 10rd mags for $40 from ambient weather. (I love AGP mags)
#4 break ins suck but you're smoothing it out and loosening up the springs.

All your good points are :)

[rockmup]

Great thread.
I have two 12s and an S20 that has a 12" barrel that is for
home defense. It is soon going to have a magwell.

They are some work to get right but once you do, holy smokes. They really are like crack, you just can't stop.
You have to enjoy the platform, if you don't then you will not like these weapons.

[Col. Plink]

Wow, didn't realize I was starting such an awesome thread! Thanks for everyone's conscientious contributions. I have come to the decision that I am not savvy enough (yet) to be a tinkerer beyond learning dis/reassembly of my guns after use. I have also decided that I will save for my next purchase and likely make it one of these so that I can BECOME a tinkerer. Right now I just lack bucks and a good work station. The cat has an irritating habit of walking across my coffee table while I'm working on stuff and knocking things onto the floor or leaving hair on oily things that arre supposed to slide freely across one another.

I was able to easily upgrade from a 6 to 9-shot Mossy pump for $230+tax so paying extra for something that's really no better made is not something I can pay for right now.

[jeffesonm]

One more opinion...

I bought a Saiga 12 a few months back primarily for fun. After a box or two of 00 buckshot to break it in, it has been 100% reliable with all loads. As I live in the fine state of NJ, I have not converted mine and instead replaced the black plastic furniture with some wood versions from the Saiga .308. I occasionally shoot skeet with it and generally just shoot it for fun... been very happy with the purchase and it is one of my most enjoyable guns to shoot.

[FSJeeper]

I have 2 S12's. I have found them 100% reliable with the 10 round mags but have not tried out the drums I bought from MD.

All of the points, pros and cons have been pretty much been covered.

Mine are used for fun. I'll take a pump or my Bennelli M1 if HD is required over the Saiga because I like the tube fed mag in this scenario over the magazine.

The point I would like to make is that a traditional stock design is always going to be superior to the AK pistol grip design. Do your research and it will become a no-brainer. The bottom line is that the ergo's are superior on the stock S12 over the AK conversion and converting it diminishes its potential.

Before you convert yours compare the stock S12 design to the AK format and do some shooting.

I guess people these days are more interested in looks rather than performance.

The only practical reason I can see to convert the S12 is to install a folding stock for better concealment.

[SN13]

FSJeeper.

Honestly I think it's a personal preference. If you like yours unconverted, fine.

I shoot clays better converted, my trigger is better converted, my handling is better converted, it's about 3" shorter converted.

I kept mine stock for a while... but now, if i shoot anyone's unconverted, i can really tell the difference in sloppy, gritty, heavy, long trigger in the stock gun, compared to my short, light, crisp, smooth trigger in mine.

It's like a computer, when you buy a new one, you don't really notice a big change in performance over the last one, but when you go back and start up the old one, you get frustrated at how long it takes to load up and open files etc. The point is, when Upgrading (sporter to PG form) you don't notice a big improvement right away... but when downgrading (PG to Sporter) you REALLY notice... It makes me appreciate my converted gun all that more.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/SN13/S-12XDm2.jpg

[Girodin]

The bottom line is that the ergo's are superior on the stock S12 over the AK conversion and converting it diminishes its potential.

Hummm, I seem to find the ergos superior when I can actually reach the safety selector with my hand still on the grip.

A stock S12 is also completely out of balance and overly front heavy. Conversion greatly improves the s12 in this regard.

As pointed out the difference between the stock trigger and a good aftermarket one is night and day.

Conversion also helps on the 922R but obviously is not the only way to be compliant.

The only practical reason I can see to have the sporter stock is to be able to legally import the thing. If import restrictions didn't exist neither would the sporter stock.

If you like your gun the way it is then that's great. I hope you have minded 922r if you are running 10 round mags though. I would agree with your advice to compare a stock gun with a converted one. I would imagine the vast majority of folks will prefer the converted one though.

[FSJeeper]

I totally agree with improving the trigger. It definitely needs work.

All of my rifles/shotguns have the traditional stock configuration except for the AK 47 underfolders which are sort of SHTF type weapons that are more easily concealed.

I have read in a number of places about the superiority of the traditional stock design, especially in shotguns. Skeet, Trap and sporting clay competitors are always looking for an advantage and if the pistol grip AK format is superior, why havn't other guns adopted it?

This all comes down to personal preference and there is a world of difference between the AK stock and the sporter stock to me.

[Girodin]

Skeet, Trap and sporting clay competitors are always looking for an advantage and if the pistol grip AK format is superior, why havn't other guns adopted it?


They also haven't adopted the sporter stock configuration AKM format now have they? Extrapolating that the best stock for a double gun is the same as that for a AKM platform shotgun with a completely different set of intended uses is really sort of silly.

One might better note that of the 3 gun competitors I know of using the S12 none of them use the sporter stock. These are people that have modded their guns with mid barrel comps, mag wells, chokes, optics, etc. They are guys looking to win and looking for advantages. Yet, none of them have maintained the sporter stock.

I would note that fit is important. The first saiga I ever converted I stuck a standard length stock. Upon shooting it, I found it very uncomfortable. The dang stock was too short, and combined with the grip I used on that on it simply wans't mounting to the right spot very naturally. A NATO length stock made a big difference. So did a grip with the right angle. I included that antidote as an illustration of the importance of fit. I might have written off converted guns when that was not the real culprit per se.

[FSJeeper]

I put a limsaver slip on recoil pad on both of mine to solve the lop issue. Worked great. And I agree, without the extra length they were cumbersome for me.

[leadcounsel]

Lipadj46 stated:
Quote:

They are used at the special forces level and are very reliable with buckshot and slug loads.

Can you please cite your resources or experience. I know first hand that our SF inventory has Benellis but zero Saiga 12 gauge for our use.

[ClickClickD'oh]

I know first hand that our SF inventory has Benellis but zero Saiga 12 gauge for our use.Wrong SF.

Read to the end. (http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=263)

Right around 7 min he talks about it's military use. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoDiVAMBC0Q)

[Geneseo1911]

Very nice gun SN!
That thing has all the bells & whistles!
Is that a competition gun?

[rogertc1]

Got my Saiga 12- 19" a couple weeks ago. Did not do a trigger conversion however. I used a Tapco T6 Interfusion stock (has pistol grip and M4 stock), a Tapco front stock, and a KC puck. Because they are all US made they count as 4 points total which allows me to use my US made 12 round mags or my rd drum.
Problem is it will not cycle with low brass ammo from Wall mart. Darn it.
It has the hole barrel ports and they are open. Gun made in Nov 2008.
My next step is polishing the bolt face/bottom and rail. Then I have to find some hi-brass to maybe get the bolt to move all the way back upon recoil...

Such a challenge. Thank giod for the Saiga Forum.

I will get my Soumi in next week to face another challange.

[ClickClickD'oh]

Rogertc1, put about fifty rounds of 00 buck through it then try the wal-mart stuff again. Sometimes a Saiga needs a good loosening up.

[rogertc1]

Thanks. I contacted or I should say I was contacted to return the gun to be fixed because of my post on Saiga forum.
Neat service.:)

Pray for me next week when I get my Soumi in!!!

[eric.cartman]

I absolutely LLLOOOVVVEEE my Saiga 12!!!
Recoil is mild comparing to other shotguns I've shot.
It had some reliability issues, but after replacing the gas puck, and gas regulator thingie to let more gas in, it cycles just fine. Got 5 10rd AGP mags that needed breake in as well (lips too thick). Had it converted by a good friend SN13 to AK style (pistol grip, AK stock, etc, etc). Put Krebs ghost sights on it, and Poly Choke II. Looks bad a$$, shoots even better.

CONS: Walmart never has enough ammo in stock :evil:

[Aka Zero]

Seen a few people around with the mag well. Where do you get one of these?

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I Belive Magnolia State Armory makes the magazine wells

[chuckusaret]

Great discussion, but based on the comments, I believe it would money better spent on a shotgun other than the Saiga. IMHO the Saiga I had was a POS from the day I bought it. I replaced it with a Mossberg 930 SPX w/PG 8 shot that puts the Saiga to shame and would shoot anything right out of the box, did not require any modifications or repairs to make it shoot and it is not a piece of stamped sheet metal that rattles like a bucket of marbles. Another thing the Mossberg cost is about $150 t0 $200 less than the Saiga. But this is America and for the time being we have the choice to buy and say what we want to, but for not much longer if Obamanation has his way.

[NoAlibi]

eric.cartman
I absolutely LLLOOOVVVEEE my Saiga 12!!!

chuckusaret
IMHO the Saiga I had was a POS from the day I bought it.

I used to see the same phenomena with mototcycle enthusiasts. My 750cc, shaft drive "rice-burner" never gave me a hiccup, but a Harley owner would rather have a head-on with a semi than be caught riding on one even though at the time the Harleys were a mechanical nightmare.

chuckusaret
But this is America and for the time being we have the choice to buy and say what we want to, but for not much longer if Obamanation has his way.

God, Yakov and I love this country! :D

[WardenWolf]

Just shot my new Saiga 12 19" yesterday. Very nice gun. Before I even shot it, I did the following:

1. Replaced the gas plug with the finger-adjustable Gunfixer plug. This also improves gas flow and means I no longer have to use a tool to adjust it.

2. Replaced the piston / tappet with the King Armory version. The King Armory piston improves reliability by increasing the number of rounds the weapon can cycle without cleaning (up to 1000 to 2000) and also improves cycling with light loads.

3. Replaced the stock with the Russian skeleton stock. I already had one from my Saiga rifle before I converted it, so this was just a quick swap.

I also ordered a Poly Choke, but it was not here yet when I took it out yesterday. My impressions are that it handles incredibly well with the Russian skeleton stock. It is fairly lightweight, and snaps to aim quickly and easily. I like those skeleton stocks because the gun can be flipped to shoulder from a low ready position, and they provide a natural cheek weld for using the gun's sights. I discovered that you CAN breech load it with the bolt locked open and the magazine removed, by placing the shell directly in the bolt.

The gun cycled perfectly fine with the heavier loads I was using at first. However, the stories regarding Fiocchi ammo are apparently true: they're a "dead" load and have problems cycling in a Saiga until it's thoroughly broken in. If I want to shoot bird shot before it's broken in, I will probably buy 3" shells in the future to counteract it or at least ensure whatever I'm getting will shoot 1300 FPS. What I also discovered, though, is that, as a lefty, cycling the action manually to reload it is about as fast as using a pump. You can indeed get off multiple shots even if the ammo won't cycle it. So for ergonomics, I have to give it a huge win, at least for me.

Despite these minor teething issues (which I was fully aware of before I bought it), I love the gun. It shoots great, it handles great, and looks great. Even my father was highly impressed with it, saying (after only a handful of shots) that he likes it better than his Remington 1100. Any issues it has, can be easily dealt with by knowing what Saigas like and don't like, and there's ultimately no real restriction on it because you can always find a load of any size that will work.

[red_cedar]

I just had to post a picture of mine. Had wanted this configuration since I saw a wood furniture model available only in Europe.

Just got to the stage it is and am pleased with its outcome. I posted this on a couple other sights. Im still working on it some. Hope you guys dont mind.

older style handguards w/ slots cut in
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr83/larry-marseilles/IMGP0011.jpg



newer style handguards.
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr83/larry-marseilles/IMGP0007.jpg

[WardenWolf]

I just have to add: my father fired 5 shots with mine, and he's hooked. He wants one himself now.

[stiletto raggio]

Update: MD-20s now go for $120 stright from the maker. Inexpensive doublestack magazines soon to follow.

FWIW, I sold my Benelli M3 in the same month I made final payments on two more S-12s. Show me a tube-fed gun that holds ten rounds and is not 40" long, or that has as many quality options for modification, or that has an ergonomically correct pistol grip and folding stock... Yeah.

[Geneseo1911]

red cedar:
Where did that forend come from? I like it and I've not seen one like that.