Advice for securing a safe on a carpeted floor


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ShooterMcGavin
July 1, 2009, 03:46 AM
I want to bolt my new safe into my closet. This is a carpeted floor, over ply-wood. The walls are drywall. I plan on cutting the base-board moulding pieces. I'm not sure what to do with: the carpet, the bolts into the ply-wood floor, and even bolts into the wall.

I have heard the recommendation to cut small holes where the bolts will go through the carpet, to prevent the carpet from simply unravelling. However... Since the holes in the bottom of the safe probably won't line up with the floor joists, I am thinking of cutting a square piece of carpet out that matches the size of the safe's bottom. Then, bolting a ~3/4" thick ply-wood base to the floor. Then, bolting the safe into that. Thoughts? Am I over-engineering this?

There are no holes up on the sides of the safe to bolt into a wall. I could drill holes in the side of the safe to line up with studs. Should I do that?

Any other ideas or advice?

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memphisjim
July 1, 2009, 03:50 AM
have so many guns in it it cant be lifted

ShooterMcGavin
July 1, 2009, 03:57 AM
I'd rather not rely on that, and I currently don't have any money to be buying more guns. This is not a huge safe. The floor is about 21" wide by 17" deep. It probably only weighs 100lbs unloaded.

ChaoSS
July 1, 2009, 04:52 AM
Since you refer to the joists, I would assume that there is no concrete to bolt into, which would be your ideal solution.

What's under these joists? Is it another floor? If so, can you put the safe down in the basement? Or is this a house that only has concrete footings and doesn't have a full foundation? If this is the case, can you cut through the subflooring and pour yourself a small block of concrete which you can bolt into?

The reason I ask is that I have taken out safes that are mounted like that while remodeling, and it will come out with only a crowbar. I would probably rather rely on hiding my valuables rather than advertise their location in something that can be taken so easily. It's your choice though.

If you are determined to do it this way, the answer is no, you are actually under engineering it.My suggestion would be to cut out the subflooring in a square, or rectangle, depending on the size of the safe and where the bolts are, cutting directly on the top of the joists, down the center. Nail the subflooring that is left back to the joists from the side. Install blocks between the joists, running perpendicular to them, spaced appropriately to accept the bolts. Secure these to the joists as solidly as you can. They make angle brackets, I'd toenail them and use the brackets. Then put subflooring back in, you might want to use something thicker, depending on how thick the stuff you have in there is. Hell, take two pieces and glue them together if you want. Attach this piece to both the joists and the blocks. Now put your bolts through the subflooring and the blocks.

Honestly, though, concrete is your best bet. Put your safe on ground floor, and if there is no concrete under that, put some in.

ShooterMcGavin
July 1, 2009, 05:20 AM
Under the floor of the safe is the living room. I can't do any concrete work. I'd prefer not to dig into the floor, but just maybe some day. I appreciate the good advice.

I'm sure that concrete would be best, but... I want the safe near my bedroom. I do my gun cleaning upstairs and I like to have easy access to my guns. Mostly, I don't want the safe down 2 floors in the basement (the only concrete floor) because of concerns with moisture and rust.

Maybe I should have discussed my goals and exactly what level of security I am after. I want to prevent the safe from being taken by a non-professional theif who spends 20 minutes, assuming they have some basic handtools. The closet does not allow a large pry bar to be used effectively, but a long pry bar could be used to pry the safe off the floor. If they are determined, I know anything can be stolen.

peyton
July 1, 2009, 05:35 AM
I second what Chaoss said, the only way to anchor to 2x8 is run crossmembers. I faced a similiar problem when I went to hang a pot rack over the island in our kitchen. Bad thing was we had the house built and could of done this AS the house was getting built instead of afterwards.

D Boone
July 1, 2009, 10:30 AM
Have your local metal shop cut you 1/4" plate with a hole pattern to match the bottom of your safe. Buy some 11" x 1/2" grade 5 bolts and bolt plate from bottom of joists to safe. Put some big washers on the safe side so the bolts won't pull through. Cut out carpet under safe and crack it down tight.

oneounceload
July 1, 2009, 10:42 AM
Figure out your best position for the safe. Determine where every wall and floor joist is and secure to as many as you can. Since it is in a closet, you might also want to frame around it to "enclose" it even more.

harmonic
July 1, 2009, 10:46 AM
An unsecured gun safe is nothing more than an expensive gun case. A motivated thief simply uses a dolly to remove the entire collection.

The typical home gun safe cannot stop a determined thief. If he has even as basic tools as a circular saw and masonry blades, he'll cut through the side.

Secrecy is your best weapon. Don't let people know you have guns, since the vast majority of guns are stolen by friends and acquaintences of gun owners.

That said, in your case, I think your best bet would be to secure the safe in a closet. You could use lag bolts to secure the back (or side) of the safe to the wall studs. That would prevent someone from merely using a dolly to take the whole safe.

CoRoMo
July 1, 2009, 11:15 AM
I could drill holes in the side of the safe to line up with studs. Should I do that?

Depending on the safe walls, this could be very easy, or not so much.
I would not hesitate to do this. I'd use large washers, and 5/16shank 3" lags or longer. I like pre-drilling the studs with a 1/4" bit because it makes those lags hold tighter than heck. This will be important if the outside of the safe wall will not be pulled up tight against the drywall. I'd imagine that there is going to be a gap between the safe and the closet wall given the baseboard or out of plum wall. If you remove the baseboard, maybe you could get it to fit right up against the closet wall. That would be greatly preferred over any gap.


hth

Lou McGopher
July 1, 2009, 11:17 AM
Wrap the safe in matching carpet, for camouflage.

catspa
July 1, 2009, 12:29 PM
Shooter, what I'd do (and have done) is to cut the carpet out so you have bare subfloor where the safe will sit. Then cut a 12"x12" hole in the subfloor to locate the joists and provide access. Make 2 rails out of 3x3 steel angle, and drill them so you can lag them to the joists under the subfloor. Drill them also for 1/2" hex bolts or thread rod studs that extend vertically up through the subfloor and tall enough to sitck into the cabinet floor about an inch or so. Drill the cabinet floor to match, replace the hatch, lift and lower the cabinet onto the bolts, 2 fender washers, a lock washer and a nut on each one. Then drill and lag horizontally into your wall studs. PM me for a diagram if you want.

Installed this way, a thief might cut open the safe, but he won't remove it without a chainsaw.

Parker

NC-Mike
July 1, 2009, 12:43 PM
My feeling is you're over-engineering it.

If your safe only weighs a 100 pounds, bolting it to the floor, in addition to bolting it to the wall will do little to stop a determined thief. If someone is going to rip out the bolts in the wall studs, they will rip out the bolts in the floor as well but more likely, they will just maul that safe and open it up like a clam with a heavy pry-bar.

I would just bolt it to the wall and be done with it. Then buy some insurance.

Maverick223
July 1, 2009, 01:06 PM
I know that you probably don't want to hear this because you have already bought what sounds like a "Stack-On" type cabinet, but the best thing to do is get a thick wall heavy steel crossbolt safe. They are the only ones that require too much effort to be easily breached by a burglar. The best option using what you have is to conceal it well (basement would be best because statistically thieves will spend less time looking there). Building a wall around it and hiding it with a cheap set of cabinet doors and put it near the washer and drier would be another option (makes it appear to be laundry storage). :)

ShooterMcGavin
July 1, 2009, 04:20 PM
...you have already bought what sounds like a "Stack-On" type cabinet...
I don't know how I gave that impression :confused:

The safe I have is made by Browning. I totally guessed on the 100lb weight; I guess it could be closer to 200lbs, but it doesn't matter much.

CCWB
July 1, 2009, 04:20 PM
Screw it into the wall. Holes can be covered with putty when you move. I have a safe to keep my kid from getting a gun. If a thief wants it, they'll get it. If I'm not there when they come, please set the house on fire so I can get all the money and move!

Maverick223
July 1, 2009, 04:29 PM
The safe I have is made by Browning. I totally guessed on the 100lb weightBeing a browning you/it should be good, but should be more than 100lbs (that was the give away, I figured it to be a large metal cabinet). The weight doesn't matter, but the construction does. I would screw it to the walls, with lags (normal screws won't do). :)

Martyk
July 1, 2009, 04:42 PM
I don't know how I gave that impression

The safe I have is made by Browning. I totally guessed on the 100lb weight; I guess it could be closer to 200lbs,

OK ShooterMcGavin... now you'll have to give us all the exact model number so we can check out the weight and specs for ourselves... :cool: What kind of a guy doesn't even know the weight and specs of his own safe! :uhoh:

:D:D:D

halfded
July 1, 2009, 04:42 PM
install cross members between the joists to line up with the holes on your safe. Screw them into the joists with the longest thickest lag bolts you can find that won't split the wood. Grind the edges off the bolt heads so they can't be backed out. If you wanna go the extra mile, put a piece of plywood to cover the whole mess using those screws that will screw in but not back out. That should hold it pretty good; lag bolts for the back too. I did this with my safe and I can pull, shake, twist, whatever with all my weight/force and it won't budge an inch. Couple that with strategic positioning in the corner of a closet to prevent any kind of leverage, and you're good to go...unless said thief is traveling around with an extensive tool set and time to kill.

Kwanger
July 1, 2009, 04:43 PM
I think everyone has covered it well. I just wanted to add about the carpet cuts, as I just recently put a small safe in (albeit mine is into concrete). What I did was cut two inch square holes in the carpet for the bolts. If you decide against cutting the whole square for the carpet, to identify where you need to cut the carpet your best bet is to run a thin black marker down through the holes in the safe bottom and mark the holes. I had heard the carpet unravelling stories too and didn't want to take a chance on that.

My safe is a cheapy electronic one - its primary purpose is to a: keep my daughter out, and b: provide some protection against casual thieves, should they manage to find it (it is also pretty well concealed, which is probably the best defense). Even though I've gotten it bolted to concete, I'm under no illusion that serious guys could easily rip the thing out. So if I were you, I wouldn't over-engineer it too much, especially as your mounting will always be a compromise - rather, just make yourself happy it'll stand up to low level unsophisticated types, and maintain your ins coverage.

Rob P.
July 1, 2009, 04:49 PM
Simple solution that doesn't require drilling holes in the safe or re-engineering the floor:

Buy some square steel tubing that is cut to the length required for each side of the safe between the bolt holes. Drill tubing so that it can be bolted to the bottom of the safe. Drill tubing so that it can be bolted to existing floor joists.

Bolt steel to floor, then bolt safe to steel. Job Done!

ChaoSS
July 1, 2009, 05:59 PM
Under the floor of the safe is the living room. I can't do any concrete work. I'd prefer not to dig into the floor, but just maybe some day. I appreciate the good advice.

I'm sure that concrete would be best, but... I want the safe near my bedroom. I do my gun cleaning upstairs and I like to have easy access to my guns. Mostly, I don't want the safe down 2 floors in the basement (the only concrete floor) because of concerns with moisture and rust.

Maybe I should have discussed my goals and exactly what level of security I am after. I want to prevent the safe from being taken by a non-professional theif who spends 20 minutes, assuming they have some basic handtools. The closet does not allow a large pry bar to be used effectively, but a long pry bar could be used to pry the safe off the floor. If they are determined, I know anything can be stolen.In that case, I would suggest that you either do what I've suggested (let me know if that didn't make enough sense, I can try again or make a diagram for you.) or could go with one of the ideas involving steel framing mixed into the joists. Those will cost more, and will be more difficult for you to work with (I'm assuming that you aren't exactly an expert at construction, but you probably aren't completely inept either.). However, they will hold better than what I suggested.

Coopersrcool
July 1, 2009, 08:03 PM
Steel cable can also be your friend.....but you would have to have a small hole to drill holes in joists, run cable through and up through holes in bottom of safe. Move safe over cable and tighten cable as you go. having one loop through joists, up through safe and cable clamps. Would be stronger than bolts. If bad guy gets to rocking the safe...he could pull the bolts right out of the joists....he would have to break the joists in half to pull out the cable...that would be hard! Just an idea

djs764
July 1, 2009, 11:07 PM
An unsecured gun safe is nothing more than an expensive gun case. A motivated thief simply uses a dolly to remove the entire collection.


While somewhat true, how many thiefs carry a dolly around with them? Most are just smash and grab and your computers,tv's and jewlery will be more enticing to them than trying to make a lot of noise and smash into your safe or wheel it out in the open with a dolly. If they want what you have they're going to get it no matter what kind of safe you have or how it's bolted down. Don't brag on what kinds or how many guns you have as you never know who's listening and will follow you home to later return and rob you. Also, up you homeowners insurance for the firearms, it's not that much more for the added protection.

harmonic
July 1, 2009, 11:32 PM
While somewhat true, how many thiefs carry a dolly around with them?

I have a friend who sells guns and safes. He said that in his considerable experience, guns are stolen 95% of the time by friends and acquaintances of the victim. If a dolly is what is needed, a dolly is what they'll bring.

As I already advised, don't discuss your guns with anyone. Sounds paranoid, but effective.

TheProf
July 2, 2009, 12:14 AM
Beside bolting the safe... why not create a barrier that is too heavy and cumbersome to move the safe out of the closet?

Doggy Daddy
July 2, 2009, 02:58 AM
I like pre-drilling the studs with a 1/4" bit because it makes those lags hold tighter than heck. This will be important if the outside of the safe wall will not be pulled up tight against the drywall. I'd imagine that there is going to be a gap between the safe and the closet wall given the baseboard or out of plum wall. If you remove the baseboard, maybe you could get it to fit right up against the closet wall. That would be greatly preferred over any gap.

Attach 2 panels of 3/4" plywood to the studs using lag bolts for a total thickness of 1 1/2". Gluing the panels together and countersinking the lag bolts is recommended. Line the safe up so as to cover the lag bolts, preventing thieves from removing them. Then run lag bolts from the inside of the safe deep into the plywood panels. Solves the problems of lining up the pre-existing holes in the safe with the studs, and doesn't leave a gap between the safe and the wall.

DD

brassdog
July 2, 2009, 08:17 AM
In addition to finding the best way to secure your safe (all of the aforementioned suggestions are a good place to start). Why not take the time to consider concealing it as well. ie adding a false wall in the closet, hardening the closet door and jamb, adding a security system.

The idea is to add multiple layers of security in order to divert, discourage, and defeat the burglars. You can do this one at a time as your budget permits.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 12:43 PM
The idea is to add multiple layers of security in order to divert, discourage, and defeat the burglars. You can do this one at a time as your budget permits.

http://www.costaricaretireonss.com/NewProjectPhotos/watch_dog.jpg

Maverick223
July 2, 2009, 12:55 PM
^That's my first line of defense... :)

Deltaboy
July 2, 2009, 05:50 PM
1. Loose Lips sink ships
2. layers of defense work best.
3. Set it and built a closet around it.
4. Use a steel door and frame to close it in with Deadbolts.

JWF III
July 4, 2009, 01:36 AM
If the concrete is not an option. Learn how to repair drywall. Seriously.

Have the safe in place where you want it, drill the holes through the carpet and subfloor. (The whole carpet unraveling thing is a myth in my opinion. I've drilled many holes through carpet and never had it happen. Just use a sharp bit and the highest rpms possible.) Now go downstairs, cut a hole in the ceiling ~ 10" square. It might have to be two holes if the mounting holes you drilled are on opposite sides of the joists. Make a not of how far the holes are from the joists.

Now go to a local welding shop and buy one piece of 1/2" steel ~9" square for each mounting bolt. Have the shop blow some holes in the plate with a cutting torch (this will save you a headache and several drill bits). Make sure the hole in each plate is slightly less from the edge than the bolt holes are from the joists.

On your way home go by the Hardware store and get the correct size bolts, nuts, and washers. (Hint: If the holes in the safe are square, buy carraige bolts. This will make it a one person job. If round buy Grade 8 Hex Head bolts and get your spouse or a friend to help.)

Drop the bolts through the holes from up top. From downstairs put the steel plate, washer, and nut on the bolt. Tighten as much as possible.

Doing it this way will increase the surface area that the bolt is holding to. It will actually be stronger than if you lagged the safe to the joists. (A 1/2"x4" Lag bolt has just over 5 square inches of bearing surface on the threads. Each plate would have 81 square inches of bearing surface. If you figured 4, 1 at each corner, you'll have 324 sq. in. as compared to 20 sq.in. So over 16 times the bearing surface with the plates.)

Now all you have to do is patch the drywall below. Really a fairly easy job for a somewhat handy person. If the ceiling is textured, it does increase the difficulty some. The only problem would be when you (if ever) decide to move it. You'll have to recut the wholes and repair the ceiling again.

Wyman

rogdigity
July 4, 2009, 02:59 AM
in my past house i had the same situation with a 'stack-on' type safe. in fact it WAS a stack-on gun cabinet. it was in my second floor closet with a kitchen below. being a former clepto/thief/punk-ass-kid that should have had my ass kicked more, i understand that you arent so much worried of professional thieves. my main concern was to keep the safe from moving. i had the same type of flooring setup you mentioned with 2x12 joists under the subfloor. my main goal was only to keep it from rocking AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. now notice i didnt say all the way. i could have removed it within an hour or so if i needed to and if i had 'ideal' tools.

i drilled 4 holes in the bottom (it wasnt pre-drilled) and 2 in the back. i lined up the back with one of the wall studs and luckly the floor joists ran right along the right side so i tried lining up that joist with 2 holes and drilled the other 2 on the other side. i used 6x 3 inch long 5/16" lag bolts. i then used two washers per bolt, one ~3/4" wide and one ~1 1/4 inch wide. that gave it plenty of grab on the floor and sides. i used hex head bolts and got out my big ratchet and tightened those guys down as tight as i could. there was a small gap at the bottom on the back though so i had to get a saw and razor knife and cut out a section of the floor board. now if i had room to run at it i could have probably moved it a little. due to its wedged location between my bed and desk it wasnt moving though.


also bolted my much much smaller pistol safe to the sub floor only (out of haste) and used the same bolts. suprisingly the brinks fire safe was just as easy to drill as the stack-on cabinet was... it served its purpose though and kept everything stuck down. i would try something like this if you are on a budget (time and money) and want to get it down. its not the greatest solution, but hey, i have homeowners insurance. if someone does come to take it they could take it if they wanted. ill make the jerks work for it though.


overall you should look at 2 things to secure ANY safe:

1 - the more points of contact, THE BETTER. if a safe has only one bolt it can likely be pivoted and jimmied and when that bolt fails the safe is gone. now add (in my case) 5 more bolts and you are going to have 5 times the pain in your ass after wrestling the thing around. and maybe try stagering them a little. im sure if there are 2 on bottom and 2 on back and they are all in a line that it might be a bit easier

2 - the biger the washers, THE BETTER. the 1/2" hex head wasnt enough for my application so i built up with appropriate washers all the way to 1 1/4"+. that left a VERY large foot print on the inside of the safe to prevent the bolts from pulling through

rogdigity
July 4, 2009, 03:04 AM
oh, and when i did move, there were some ugly spots i had to patch. you couldnt see anything in the carpet though.

and dogs do work. i always kept a bat by my bed upstaris. if i heard the dogs bark i would wake up. if i heard a dog get shot i would have gotten my 45

scythefwd
July 4, 2009, 04:33 AM
you could look into using snap toggles. Many are supposed to be able to hold up to 300 lbs each. Just drill into the floor, push the snap toggle through, seat the retainer, place the safe on top and then bolt to the toggle. It is basically a one handed toggle bolt.

http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/togglebolt.html

Four of these through the floor will make your safe feel a whole lot heavier.

ChaoSS
July 4, 2009, 06:42 AM
you could look into using snap toggles. Many are supposed to be able to hold up to 300 lbs each. Just drill into the floor, push the snap toggle through, seat the retainer, place the safe on top and then bolt to the toggle. It is basically a one handed toggle bolt.

http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/togglebolt.html

Four of these through the floor will make your safe feel a whole lot heavier.

This is not good advice. The 300 lbs is meaningless if the subfloor that it is attached to breaks, which will happen with a decent wrecking bar.

rogdigity
July 4, 2009, 12:10 PM
This is not good advice. The 300 lbs is meaningless if the subfloor that it is attached to breaks, which will happen with a decent wrecking bar.

i think you missed the point

Four of these through the floor will make your safe feel a whole lot heavier.


i dont think anyone was aiming for 100% sacure, but rather 500% more of a pain in the ass to get the safe out. if you want to get technical then whats to stop someone from going to the lower floor and blowing a whole in the ceiling and having the safe fall into their waiting arms. i still believe that shooter was just trying to make it stick to the floor

i still say bolt it to the floor and the wall. next time i come accross a vacant run down house in nebraska im gonna go buy a stack on gun cabinet and bolt it in the closet and record how hard it really is to get it out. if it doesnt come out within 20 minutes im going to open the front up with an axe like a sardine can

scythefwd
July 4, 2009, 12:23 PM
ChaoSS,
With a decent wrecking bar there isn't a setup that doesn't involve concrete that will take me more than 30 minutes to take the whole safe. rogdidity hits my point on the head. If you can get a good prybar under the safe, you will be able to pry it up. Either the floor will rip out around the toggle (which is about 2 in long X .5 inches wide) or the floor will break infront of the safe where your fulcrum is. If the floor breaks at the fulcrum, you just reach through and unscrew the dang things... if the floor rips out then your free to go. Pulling something like that through the floor though will take a little bit of grunt work. If the safe is in a closet, there might not me enough room to get good leverage.

Oh, and that 300 lbs is for drywall. Sub floor will hold a bit more. It won't hold the 900 lbs that concrete will though, so Ill split the difference and go with 400-450 lbs of tensile strength. That makes the safe feel like it weighs 1600 - 1800 lbs which makes it no longer a one man job. At that point, it will be faster to just use a sawzall and take the top off.

NC-Mike
July 4, 2009, 01:16 PM
That makes the safe feel like it weighs 1600 - 1800 lbs which makes it no longer a one man job. At that point, it will be faster to just use a sawzall and take the top off.


That's right, security is an illusion.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WnwtzrvIL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

You would be amazed how one of the cordless jobs with a diamond blade will slice through dang near anything.

There is also the worry that if someone does break in and finds your secured safe, they just come back a month later when your home and have you open it for them. I doubt they would knock and it would probably get real ugly.

bigione
July 4, 2009, 03:00 PM
Hide the valubles else where and use the safe as a decoy. Make a false ceiling or false wall in a closet A determined thief will get into or take the safe.

danprkr
July 4, 2009, 04:02 PM
have so many guns in it it cant be lifted

I still like this idea best. :D

Seriously, my safe weighs in at about 800 if I recall correctly. I know last time I put it on my 500 pound furniture dolly I had to buy a new dolly. I've never had mine bolted down. But I'm considering doing it this time because people I don't trust have some access to the house to case me out in ways I've never had to deal with before. Fortunately, I'm on concrete, and can just hammer drill down, and bolt away. But I may even build a closet around it to make it more camouflaged. That fact that it will make it more aesthetically pleasing to my wife is an added bonus.

kda
July 4, 2009, 07:44 PM
Have you given any thought to taking a few reasonable steps to make the safe reasonably hard to move and then subscribing to a good alarm service? I know I went with ADT and to entice me and get me to sign a three year package, the alarm system was installed free (or nearly so). I believe other services occasionally offer similar deals. Get a system with heat/motion sensors in appropriate rooms. They work really nicely. Very hard to defeat. By the time they get to the sensor the alarm has been triggered.

When that alarm goes off and starts emitting that loud noise (I presume you have neighbors) I don't think the average burglar is going to stick around long enough to dislodge and haul off a heavy safe that is reasonably secure. In fact the alarm will go off before they even find it.

Alarm service cost only about $360 / year and an alarm system protects other valuables around the house and even your family. You can even add fire protection if you want. Your insurance company is likely to give you a break on your household insurance premiums, mine does. Helps a little.

The Alarm Service sign out front (and back) gives notice that you do not plan to be an easy victim and the theory is casual burglars will look for easier pickings. You get stickers for the windows and patio doors ...

INMY01TA
July 5, 2009, 02:48 PM
+1 for ADT. My alarm is set by a remote key fob with no entry delay. This lessons the amount of time anyone will have to do a quick smash and grab. I feel a safe bolted to floor and wall in conjuction with the alarm is a decent setup.

ChaoSS
July 6, 2009, 04:35 AM
rogdigity and scythefwd, I still think toggle bolts are insufficient. I still think that toggles will still be able to be ripped out by someone using a wrecking bar, but with the proper amount of reinforcement, you can secure the safe in there so that you can not get it out with just a wrecking bar.

Obviously, anything can be taken out with the proper tools, but I figure if something can be taken out with a wrecking bar, it's not enough.


And BTW, it's not going to make it seem heavier, only make it harder to get out of the ground.

cottonmouth
July 6, 2009, 04:54 AM
Just build a 2x6 frame the size of the bottom of the safe and bolt it to the floor then bolt the saf to the 2x6's.

J.B.

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