Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time


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gmark340
July 1, 2009, 12:14 PM
Somewhat misleading in that the article doesn't mention the large percentage of firearms that are not submitted to the US for tracing, or the large percentage that are stolen from the Mexican military and police. However, the bigger question, to me, anyway, is what power do the Feds have to show up at your house to ask to see your guns? If the homeowner says "I don't care to speak with you. Come back with warrant." would that send them on their way?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6505651.html

Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time
By DANE SCHILLER Copyright 2009 Houston Chronicle
June 30, 2009, 9:36PM
Share Print Share Del.icio.usDiggTwitterYahoo! BuzzFacebookStumbleUponIn front of a run-down shack in north Houston, federal agents step from a government sedan into 102-degree heat and face a critical question: How can the woman living here buy four high-end handguns in one day?

The house is worth $35,000. A screen dangles by a wall-unit air conditioner. Porch swing slats are smashed, the smattering of grass is flattened by cars and burned yellow by sun.

“I’ll do the talking on this one,” agent Tim Sloan, of South Carolina, told partner Brian Tumiel, of New York.

Success on the front lines of a government blitz on gunrunners supplying Mexican drug cartels with Houston weaponry hinges on logging heavy miles and knocking on countless doors. Dozens of agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — sent here from around the country — are needed to follow what ATF acting director Kenneth Melson described as a “massive number of investigative leads.”

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases as well as seeking explanations as to how their guns ended up used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes in Mexico.

“Ever turning up the heat on cartels, our law enforcement and military partners in the government of Mexico have been working more closely with the ATF by sharing information and intelligence,” Melson said Tuesday during a firearms-trafficking summit in New Mexico.

Firearms dealers visited
The ATF recently dispatched 100 veteran agents to its Houston division, which reaches to the border.

The mission is especially challenging because, officials say, that while Houston is the number one point of origin for weapons traced back to the United States from Mexico, the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law.

Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person.

People who are legally in the United States and have clean criminal records, but are facing economic problems are often recruited by traffickers to buy weapons on their behalf in order to shield themselves from scrutiny.

Knocks at the door of the shack that looked to be the definition of hard times went unanswered.

“I am out of here,” Sloan said a few moments later, as a pit bull lazily sauntered from the back yard. “I don’t like pit bulls walking up behind me.”

Best information source
On second thought, Sloan switched to Spanish and interviewed a neighbor.

The neighbor said the woman left a month ago after a fight with her husband or boyfriend, who still lived there with what she called “other degenerates.”

“An angry ex-girlfriend or wife is the best person in the world, the greatest source of information,” Sloan said.

The night before, the duo were in a stakeout where they watched a weapons sale.

They also combined efforts with the Drug Enforcement Administration for an aircraft to stealthily follow traffickers to the border.

On this day, agents weren’t wearing raid jackets or combat boots and weren’t armed with warrants.

Guns were hidden under civilian shirts.

Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.

It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.

Some stories, they say, are hard to believe.

The lamest so far came from a police officer: He said he bought a few military-style rifles, left them in his car and — on the same night — forgot to lock a door. He couldn’t explain why he didn’t file a police report or why he visited Mexico the day after the alleged theft.

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jackdanson
July 1, 2009, 12:24 PM
However, the bigger question, to me, anyway, is what power do the Feds have to show up at your house to ask to see your guns? If the homeowner says "I don't care to speak with you. Come back with warrant." would that send them on their way?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650

I'm quite angry, that is all I've got to say.

texas bulldog
July 1, 2009, 12:30 PM
Why does the author think it's so hard to believe that a pastor bought two handguns? What is this country coming to?!?

waterhouse
July 1, 2009, 12:32 PM
However, the bigger question, to me, anyway, is what power do the Feds have to show up at your house to ask to see your guns?

Similar to door to door salesman, police generally have the right to knock on your door and ask to speak with you, ask to see your guns, ask to search your house, etc. You have every right to say no.

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 12:34 PM
t turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.


Would love to know what that is.

Glock maybe? So Glocks ,the number one selling handgun in the country, are now suspicious on their own?

Would love to know what that means "a type drug gangsters prefer".

However, the bigger question, to me, anyway, is what power do the Feds have to show up at your house to ask to see your guns?


The important part is that you have the right to tell them NO. Amazing to me why so many people fail to exercise that right.

waterhouse
July 1, 2009, 12:45 PM
Would love to know what that is.

I don't know what they based it on, but they have a pretty narrowly defined list, most of which are not too popular in terms of sales volume. Calibers like 5.7 and .38 Super are apparently biggies; I had to count how many I had sold at my last inspection.

Quoheleth
July 1, 2009, 12:48 PM
Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.

It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.

Wonder what they will do when they found out I bought one (or two :D) for CCW purpose?

You know how it goes...got one of those gangstah .38 snubbies. Might even get a sight installed on the side of the barrel.

This witch hunt is getting absurd...as are the commentary given by most media politikal officers, er...I mean writers.

Q

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 12:59 PM
Calibers like 5.7 and .38 Super are apparently biggies; I had to count how many I had sold at my last inspection.

Guess I'm next on the list then, I have both of those LOL

Quoheleth
July 1, 2009, 01:02 PM
Those are "biggies" because in Mexico, the law is - or, at least it was - that civilians could not own military calibers. Thus, 9mm, .45ACP, et. al., were verboten...I mean, no esta bueno.

The .38 Super has historically been a favorite down there for this exact reason.

Q

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 01:04 PM
Those are "biggies" because in Mexico, the law is - or, at least it was - that civilians could not own military calibers. Thus, 9mm, .45ACP, et. al., were verboten...I mean, no esta bueno.

The .38 Super has historically been a favorite down there for this exact reason.

So that's a hilarious argument, our government must be made of geniuses.

The people buying illegal guns to use in illegal activities are worried about having the firearm be in a legal caliber? LOL

Quoheleth
July 1, 2009, 01:12 PM
It's *GOVERNMENT*.
It doesn't have to make sense.

And besides, it's THEIR government with the law. Ours just gets to play cops for them.

You know, I wonder if the Justice Dept sends them a bill for the hours spent chasing down their guns.

Too, I wonder if the Mexican Gov't sends us a bill for the hour (singular) they spent (past tense) chasing down illegal drug trafficers.

Q

peyton
July 1, 2009, 01:15 PM
Rush started his show with this. He pointed out that FDR outlawed gold private ownership by executive order, our president will do the same with guns.

SHusky57
July 1, 2009, 01:19 PM
It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice

Christiangunowner.com is a pastor who loves Glocks.
Gangsters use Glocks.
Law enforcement use Glocks.
NATO militaries use Glocks.
Sport shooters use Glocks.

So, technically, it's truthful to say "type preferred by gangsters." It's just dishonest to leave out the Law enforcement, sport shooter, NATO, civilian part.

Spreadfire Arms
July 1, 2009, 01:22 PM
i was told from a reliable source, some time ago (which now may have changed), that the two most popular pistols going south of the border are a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92. they were supposedly the two most sought-after weapons. i dont really sell either one, and i dont own either one, so i guess it doesn't really affect me.

i was told that the reason why is because both are 9mm and weapons familiar to persons trained by the military (i would assume the Mexican Military).

of course this date may have changed. that was about a year ago.

CoRoMo
July 1, 2009, 01:27 PM
a type drug gangsters prefer

What's a drug gangster?

waterhouse
July 1, 2009, 01:34 PM
Guess I'm next on the list then, I have both of those LOL

I was interested in the fact that they didn't take any information on the ones I had sold. 4473s weren't referenced, just interest in the number that have left the premises.

The people buying illegal guns to use in illegal activities are worried about having the firearm be in a legal caliber?

I haven't checked the Mexican laws in a few years, but IIRC there was a distinction between levels of punishment (i.e. felony vs. misdemeanor) based on the caliber. I think the theory is that if you are going to have a gun you might as well carry the one that gets you the least punishment. I'm not saying it makes much sense, just a tiny bit.

Onmilo
July 1, 2009, 01:41 PM
.38 Supers are still popular in Mexico

The largest legal semi-automatic caliber a citizen can possess is .380acp and it has been that way for over fifteen years.

This "journalist" story reeks of hype without much substance.



The cop being the victim of a theft story is priceless.
The "cop" must have been so rookie his shoes had not yet been scuffed.

I call B.S.

NC-Mike
July 1, 2009, 02:04 PM
Why are people questioning the Feds doing a strawman-purchasing investigation?

Strawman purchases are where thugs get most of their guns and here the Feds are doing something about and trying to enforce the laws we have, instead of passing new laws to solve the obvious problem.

Let them have at it, they didn't seem to be breaking any laws or violating anyone's civil rights in the course of their investigation.

jackdanson
July 1, 2009, 02:11 PM
Why are people questioning the Feds doing a strawman-purchasing investigation?

Because they are selecting people at random, not because they have probable cause or the belief that they did something wrong.

Should the feds question everyone who has an internet connection to see if they have any child pornography? Should everyone who buys a bag of fertilizer at home depot be questioned?

Strawman purchases are where thugs get most of their guns

Actually it's theft, but whatever.

Let them have at it, they didn't seem to be breaking any laws or violating anyone's civil rights in the course of their investigation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650

They want to imprison you, they need convictions to justify why they exist.

conw
July 1, 2009, 02:12 PM
Schiller is a shill.

feedthehogs
July 1, 2009, 02:16 PM
The story is so vague and full of holes, its almost not even there.

No supported facts only conjecture. What a hack.

What makes it even worse is an editor of some kind had to approve that swill. That makes at least two people who should give their degrees back.

I really like the description of the house with pool and the "FLAG" out front.

Obviously the home owner is a right wing insurrectionist modern militia member.

eye5600
July 1, 2009, 02:35 PM
The people buying illegal guns to use in illegal activities are worried about having the firearm be in a legal caliber?

More likely they are interested in the availability of ammunition.

I do like the way the story builds sympathy for the Feds because they have to do their questioning in 102 degree heat, and are harassed by lazy pit bulls.

Hush
July 1, 2009, 02:42 PM
The guns referred to as "gangster guns" are probably garbage guns like Hi-Point, etc. Far fewer guns are going into mexico from the northern border. They certainy dont get all their full auto AK's from the US. This whole myth is designed to tighten gun control laws for US.

Rockwell1
July 1, 2009, 03:00 PM
Read some of the comments, the antis are coming out of the woodwork

NC-Mike
July 1, 2009, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Why are people questioning the Feds doing a strawman-purchasing investigation?

Because they are selecting people at random, not because they have probable cause or the belief that they did something wrong.

That wasn't in the story and no, they aren't checking people at random. Where are you getting your information?


Should the feds question everyone who has an internet connection to see if they have any child pornography? Should everyone who buys a bag of fertilizer at home depot be questioned?

That has nothing to do with whether or not the feds should conduct investigations of people suspected of strawman purchasing. And IMHO, the answer to that question is yes they should and they should do so vigorously.


Quote:
Strawman purchases are where thugs get most of their guns

Actually it's theft, but whatever.

Straw-purchasing is a significant channel for getting guns into criminals hands.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/followingthegun_internet.pdf

Channels of Illegal Supply

ATF’s review of recent trafficking investigations clearly demonstrates that many firearms are diverted from legal commerce through a variety of illegal channels that law enforcement agencies can target effectively to reduce criminal and juvenile access to firearms.

Trafficking by corrupt FFLs.

Although FFL traffickers were involved in the smallest proportion of ATF trafficking investigations, under 10 percent, cases involving FFL traffickers were associated with the largest total number of illegally diverted firearms, over 40,000, as compared to the other trafficking channels.34

All investigations involving FFL traffickers were associated with by far the highest average number of guns per investigation, over 350. But this number rose to over 560 guns in investigations of FFLs acting alone, and to over 575
guns when FFLs conspired with unlicensed sellers. Trafficking cases involved retail firearms dealers, pawnbrokers, and residential FFLs.

Gun shows and flea markets.

Gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking. About 14 percent of the investigations involved gun shows and flea markets. These investigations involved an average of 130 guns, the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation, and were associated with approximately 26,000 illegally diverted firearms. Gun show investigations involved both FFL traffickers and unlicensed dealers.

Straw purchasers.

Straw purchasing rings and small scale straw purchasers comprised nearly
50 percent of the trafficking investigations, by far the largest number of trafficking investigations, and although the average number of guns
per investigation was under 40, they accounted for nearly 26,000 trafficked firearms, about the same number of firearms as gun show investigations.
Straw purchasers may be friends, paid associates, relatives, intimates, or members of the same gang.

Trafficking by unlicensed sellers.

Unlicensed sellers (not associated with gun shows and not straw purchasers) were the focus of about 20 percent of the investigations, involving over 22,000 trafficked firearms, and about 75 guns
per investigation.

Trafficking in stolen firearms.

Survey evidence indicates there are at least 500,000 firearms stolen annually from residences.35 It is, therefore, not surprising that some of these firearms
are circulating in the illegal market, as are guns stolen from FFLs and common carriers. Trafficking investigations involving firearms stolen from residences, FFLs, and common carriers combined made up about a quarter of the
trafficking investigations, and were associated with over 11,000 trafficked firearms. Because of the small number of investigations involving thefts of firearms from common carriers, about 2 percent of the investigations, this trafficking channel yielded the smallest total number of firearms, although it averaged a substantial number of illegally diverted firearms per investigation,
over 66.

Quote:
Let them have at it, they didn't seem to be breaking any laws or violating anyone's civil rights in the course of their investigation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650

They want to imprison you, they need convictions to justify why they exist.

:rolleyes:

Old Fuff
July 1, 2009, 04:20 PM
Look at the numbers posted above, suposedly from the BATF. (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...n_internet.pdf) Then look at this quote from the article in the opening post:

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

Somehow I don't see how they can jibe. Something here is way out of line.

Old Fuff
July 1, 2009, 04:54 PM
And to add to the confusion we have this. Isn't it interesting that somehow the various numbers provided by the BATF or Mexican authorities never seem to agree from one day to the next. :uhoh: :confused:

AP IMPACT: Mexico's weapons cache stymies tracing

By E. EDUARDO CASTILLO and MICHELLE ROBERTS (Associated Press Writers)
From Associated Press
May 06, 2009 1:57 PM EDT

MEXICO CITY - Deep inside a heavily guarded military warehouse, the evidence of Mexico's war on drug cartels is stacked two stories high: tens of thousands of seized weapons, from handguns and rifles to AK-47s, some with gun sights carved into the shape of a rooster or a horse's head.

The vault nestled in a Mexican military base is the government's largest stash of weapons - some 88,537 of them - seized from brutal drug gangs. The Associated Press was recently given rare and exclusive access to the secure facility.

The sheer size of the cache attests to the seemingly hopeless task of ever sorting and tracing the guns, possibly to trafficking rings that deliver weapons to Mexico. And security designed to keep the guns from getting back on the streets is so tight that even investigators have trouble getting the access they need.

The warehouse - on a main drag in northeastern Mexico City near the horse racing track - is surrounded by five rings of security. There are two military guards at the door and five more are in the lobby. Inside, another 10 soldiers sort, clean and catalog weapons. Some are dismantled and destroyed, a few assigned to the Mexican military.

The guns are stacked to the two-story ceiling in a warehouse the size of a small Wal-Mart. The rifles lie on 22 metal racks; the pistols hang from metal poles by their triggers.

The cavernous warehouse is impeccably clean, the only smell coming from the coffee the soldiers prepared for their rare visitors. The clash of metal and sounds of the soldiers at work echo off the walls.

The security, bolstered by closed-circuit cameras and motion detectors, makes the warehouse practically impenetrable, said Gen. Antonio Erasto Monsivais, who oversees the armory.

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes - particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which handles the U.S. investigations, is at the mercy of local Mexican police for the amount and quality of the information.

"Many of these rural municipalities that may come into a gun seizure ... may not even know anything about tracing guns," ATF spokesman Thomas Mangan said.

A police officer in Mexico submits a description, serial number and distinctive markings of the gun. The weapons are then turned over to the military for storage in one of a dozen armories such as the one in Mexico City.

When U.S. investigators need additional details, as they often do, the request goes back to the original police officer, who must retrieve the gun from a military vault - sometimes hundreds of miles away.

Mexican police must ask permission each time they need to look at a stored gun, Monsivais said. Even if that permission is granted, the investigator cannot go past the metal fencing separating a reception desk and the shelves holding the guns. A soldier has to bring out the requested weapons.

The security, language differences and bureaucracy add up to a painstaking process, said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the ATF's Houston Field Division.

"The military does a very good job when the weapons come into their custody of securing them," he told the AP. "Because of the systems in Mexico, it's very difficult for us to get in."

Webb said recent talks between the two countries were beginning to ease access, but also noted other problems.

Many mistakes are made because of difficulty translating technical terms about firearms, Webb said. A Spanish-language version of eTrace, the Web-based method of submitting tracing information, won't be available until next year.

About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

U.S. agents need the information to track the gun back to the manufacturer and determine when it was made and what wholesaler it was shipped to, ATF spokeswoman Franceska Perot said. Agents follow the gun to the local licensed dealer who sold it and determine the buyer.

ATF offices around the U.S. are swamped with tracing requests, trying to determine who actually bought the weapons and whether they were part of a firearms trafficking scheme. The ATF has sent an extra 100 agents to Houston to help unclog the 700-weapon backlog as part of its Project Gunrunner.

The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.
Indeed, the ATF gave the AP data showing the average "time to crime" - the time between when a gun was sold and when it was seized in a crime - is 14 years.

That's an average of four years longer than guns in American crimes, the ATF said. The older the street age, the harder it can be to track how the gun wound up at a crime scene.

When the criminal investigations are complete, most of the weapons are destroyed and melted down. Some of the more powerful arms, such as M16 machine guns and sniper rifles, are added to the military's own arsenal. Showpieces are destined for museums.

Most of the guns traced were originally sold by U.S. dealers in border states, with more than half purchased in Texas. Not only does Texas have the most gun dealers of any state, it makes up 1,200 miles of the 2,100-mile U.S.-Mexico border, with many of the established drug and trafficking routes.
Details on the 2008 tracing requests are not yet available.

It's less clear how cartels are getting military-grade weapons. Amid the shelves of pistols and rifles, there is a 9 mm grenade launcher and a portable shoulder-fired anti-tank rocket launcher.

Such military-grade weaponry represents a tiny fraction of the seized weapons. But Monsivais said he's most worried about the rising caliber of assault rifles and semi-automatic guns that have been found.

"There are weapons that have a lot of firepower and great penetration, like the .50-caliber Barrett ... which can penetrate armored vehicles, body armor, and that normally only militaries use," Monsivais said.

Thirty percent of AK-47 assault rifles seized have been modified to become fully automatic. He said about three of every 1,000 AR-15 assault rifles have been modified to take .50-caliber bullets, the kind of high-powered ammunition designed for sniper rifles.

"In my experience, I had never seen a modified AR-15 rifle," Monsivais said. "It's something new, and it is to a certain extent worrisome that they can have and use this type of weapon."
---
Roberts reported from San Antonio. Associated Press writers Alexandra Olson in Mexico City and Juan A. Lozano in Houston contributed to this story.

*******************************************************
http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20090506/4a010b40_3ca6_1552620090506609271651

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time.

But this doesn't mean they won't try... :mad:

nalioth
July 1, 2009, 05:49 PM
No, I didn't read all the posts. This is one of many threads on this subject that've been locked already today. . . .

This is old news, folks.

First reported weeks ago by one of our own:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=453768

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650

Spreadfire Arms
July 1, 2009, 06:28 PM
interesting article. i personally have no problem with ATF enforcing existing laws in the books that they should be enforcing all along.

from the news story:

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases as well as seeking explanations as to how their guns ended up used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes in Mexico.


someone asked why the ATF is doing the work for the Mexican government. there are two reasons i can think of. (1) exporting firearms across the border violates US laws if the State Department did not authorize it, making it a federal violation, and (2) Mexican officials have no legal standing to investigate anything in the US. the US has an interest in enforcing its own firearms exportation laws, doesnt it?

the news story infers that this is not a random selection. so you ask, where does ATF get the names and addresses of people they're looking to talk to? my guess is Multiple Sale forms that FFL's are required by law to submit. two or more handguns within five business days from the same dealer generates this report. and then i suppose they look at the sheet and see what was purchased. if the person bought two Five-Seven pistols or two .38 Super Colts then that may be enough for ATF to go do a knock-and-talk to see if the original purchaser still has them. the FFL has until the end of business that day to send out the Multiple Sale form. that means the ATF and home jurisdiction agency (say the sale occurred in Houston, Texas, so Houston PD or Harris County Sheriff's Office gets a copy too) will get a copy of this form within days. so if the sale took place say on a Saturday and within a week or two the ATF comes to check and see if the original purchaser still has the pistol(s), then perhaps this may be a big red flag if the pistol is no longer in the possession of the original purchaser.

multiply this a few times, where the original purchaser's name shows up repeatedly and buying alot of the same pistol, and you have yourself a clue. especially if these people don't have the pistols in their possession anymore, that means that is a bigger clue. not enough to make an arrest, but then compound that to possibly one of these pistols ending up south of the border. another clue....you see how the investigation continues.

if you still have the pistol(s) and ATF asks you if you have them, i just don't see the logical reason to tell them to go fly a kite and slam the door on them. they will probably assume that you don't have the pistol(s) anymore and your name goes into a file. now that in and of itself may not mean anything, so long as you're legit and you know that your guns will never turn up in Mexico because you have them, so no big deal. but if your name ever comes up again, you bet your bottom dollar they are going to pay more scrutiny to you.

i can see how people can say the ATF is being a bunch of JBT's coming up and asking to see a firearm, but really, they are working within the confines of the law. the law allows them to do a knock-and-talk on your house and you have the right to tell them that you aren't going to cooperate.

but i wouldn't want to bring any undue scrutiny upon myself simple due to the principle of not wanting to cooperate with ATF, simply because you don't want to.

if ATF is out to make cases on crooks then i have no problem with it. crooks who use guns against the good guys make the good guys with guns look like crooks.

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 06:56 PM
can see how people can say the ATF is being a bunch of JBT's coming up and asking to see a firearm, but really, they are working within the confines of the law. the law allows them to do a knock-and-talk on your house and you have the right to tell them that you aren't going to cooperate.

but i wouldn't want to bring any undue scrutiny upon myself simple due to the principle of not wanting to cooperate with ATF, simply because you don't want to.


In most cases you are probably right, but I would still be careful about giving them information.

If by chance it happened to me I would consider meeting them at my lawyers office to let them inspect the firearms in question, that's about as far as I would go.

I am sure in most cases it truly would hurt nothing to go ahead and show the guns to them in your living room but I've never seen a single lawyer ever recommend talking to LE without the lawyer present, and I don't see any reason to start second guessing lawyers at this point.

Might cost me a couple hundred bucks sure.... cheap insurance.

Dr. Fresh
July 1, 2009, 07:00 PM
The problem is not that they want to enforce straw purchase laws. The problem is that all it takes for you to become a suspect in such investigations is the purchase of more than one handgun within a 5-day period.

Rockwell1
July 1, 2009, 07:42 PM
No, I didn't read all the posts. This is one of many threads on this subject that've been locked already today. . . .

So, why are you so hot to get this thread locked?

Does it somehowmake your life worse if we discuss this?

Or are you just playing wannabe mod?

nalioth
July 1, 2009, 08:26 PM
No, I didn't read all the posts. This is one of many threads on this subject that've been locked already today. . . .
So, why are you so hot to get this thread locked?

Does it somehowmake your life worse if we discuss this?

Or are you just playing wannabe mod?Doesn't bother me a bit what is talked about. This isn't news (it was first reported by one of our own a month ago), anyway.

Can't say the same for the mods, and my post was just a warning to folks here to expect the ol' "lock".

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 08:58 PM
This isn't news (it was first reported by one of our own a month ago), anyway.

It's news in that the article posted by the OP recounts a little bit different version of the story, along with a reporter on the scene to record their words and actions.

That and it is the first sort of "public" admission that this stuff is happening.

The ATF recently dispatched 100 veteran agents to its Houston division, which reaches to the border.

And the tactics they seem to favor:

“An angry ex-girlfriend or wife is the best person in the world, the greatest source of information,” Sloan said.

So yeah, it's more of the same but it's confirmation by an outside source and it gives some view into the scope of the operation.

100 agents is a lot of taxpayer money being spent in Houston.

nalioth
July 1, 2009, 09:25 PM
That and it is the first sort of "public" admission that this stuff is happening.

The NRA ran a news story on this a couple of weeks ago (or did you mean "public" = "government sources"?).

Animal Mother
July 1, 2009, 09:28 PM
This is a massive fishing operation by the BATFE, and they will spin the results in whatever way will justify a bigger budget and a greater erosion of our constitutional rights.

If they find no evidence of large numbers of straw purchases, they will say they need more agents and more restrictive laws to dig deeper to stop drug violence in Mexico.

However, if they do find evidence of large number of straw purchases, they will say it is proof that U.S. gun laws are too lax and that they need more restrictive laws and more agents to stop drug violence in Mexico.

It is a win-win situation for the agency that brought you Waco and Ruby Ridge.

TexasRifleman
July 1, 2009, 09:37 PM
The NRA ran a news story on this a couple of weeks ago (or did you mean "public" = "government sources"?).

Certainly. NRA, us, other pro 2A groups can claim it but until this the ATF itself had not specifically come out and said what they were doing and what the scope of the operation was.

I'd say that's something new.

Colt Smith
July 2, 2009, 02:23 AM
Once again we are distracted by lesser issues. Yes, people who illegally contribute to trafficking of weapons should be dealt with. After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs. It matters less where you got the gun. If you have conscienceless vermin loose in your country running drugs and killing people, the focus should be on your pest infestation not the tools they use.

peyton
July 2, 2009, 02:38 AM
I agree with you Colt Smith, the cops and courts need to put the thugs away, and stop the revolving door justice system.

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 02:42 AM
The red flag is sent from 2 handguns within 5 days, regardless of how unfair or wrong people think it is, anyone could easily stay off that list. Just don't buy 2 handguns within 5 days. Its REALLY simple.

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 02:45 AM
The red flag is sent from 2 handguns within 5 days, regardless of how unfair or wrong people think it is, anyone could easily stay off that list. Just don't buy 2 handguns within 5 days. Its REALLY simple.

Or the F troop could investigate actual crimes as opposed to perfectly legal firearms purchases

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 02:50 AM
"Or the F troop could investigate actual crimes as opposed to perfectly legal firearms purchases"

It doesn't matter because they wont stop.

What if they came across a person that bought 2 handguns in one day, but every few weeks and sold them to some bad Mexicans? That would be a great person for them to arrest.

If you don't want to look suspicious then don't put up a red flag.

Dr. Fresh
July 2, 2009, 04:25 AM
I will not alter my legal behavior because of government intimidation.

Action_Can_Do
July 2, 2009, 11:17 AM
Birdmang
I don't think you have really thought out the logic of your position. A line must be drawn somewhere. There are those who would happily change the law so that a red flag goes up for anyone who buys 2 guns in a lifetime.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 12:39 PM
Once again we are distracted by lesser issues. Yes, people who illegally contribute to trafficking of weapons should be dealt with. After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs. It matters less where you got the gun. If you have conscienceless vermin loose in your country running drugs and killing people, the focus should be on your pest infestation not the tools they use.

Very well said.

I also agree that it is ATF's job and mission to enforce laws regarding buying and selling firearms. That is their job.

I also agree that far stiffer penalties regarding even illegal possession of a firearm would be far more cost effective. If criminals knew they would face twenty hard years if they were caught even carrying a gun, most of them would start carrying knives. :p

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 12:51 PM
My logic is this: If you don't want the ATF on your back, or should I say doorstep, then don't buy 2 pistols within a week.

If I purchased 2 pistols today and the ATF showed up at my door next week asking about them, I would gladly show them my receipts, the pistols with matching numbers to the receipts, and everything about how I legally purchased them for personal use. When the truth is on your side then you have nothing to hide. Granted I don't live anywhere near the Mexico border, I couldn't see this happening.

I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 01:28 PM
My logic is this: If you don't want the ATF on your back, or should I say doorstep, then don't buy 2 pistols within a week.

Or you could just reffer them to your lawyer

I would gladly show them my receipts, the pistols with matching numbers to the receipts, and everything about how I legally purchased them for personal use. When the truth is on your side then you have nothing to hide. Granted I don't live anywhere near the Mexico border, I couldn't see this happening.

Please read my sigline. It's a quote from an associate justice of the SCOTUS

I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.

Any time you are beeing investigated by a law enforcement agent of any type your freedom is at stake

TexasRifleman
July 2, 2009, 01:36 PM
If you don't want to look suspicious then don't put up a red flag.

What's a red flag? And who decides?

A few weeks ago we had the Department of Homeland Security basically saying ALL gun owners are red flags.

You selling all your guns this week?

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 01:40 PM
Maybe growing up in Illinois I have lived with my freedoms infringed upon and am used to it, but I have no problems with cooperating with law enforcement of any kind.

Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 01:41 PM
This is a repost of something I said in the last thread that still holds true
I think I said this in the last thread but, this is one of those things you either get or you don’t. If you don’t the only thing that’s really going to change your mind is a bad run in with a law enforcement agency, unfortunately you may not get a chance to put your new found perspective into action after said run in.

The very fact that the agents showed up on his front stoop questioning the OP about the guns shows that they (at least on some level) suspected him of having committed a crime.
I want to say the OP would be a fool to answer any questions under such circumstances but the only people that are going to “get it’ already “get it”

There’s no such thing a “routine” questioning although, there may be if we continue to allow it.

Bottom line, if Dr. James Duane and Chief Justice Robert Jackson of the Supreme Court can’t convince you, nothing on this forum will either

MisterMike
July 2, 2009, 01:48 PM
After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs.

Absolutely. The blame in this particular instance is misplaced, but we always cry "enforce existing laws," only to complain when they do.

conw
July 2, 2009, 01:50 PM
Birdmang, interesting you were criticizing "liberals" in another thread recently. And that you're a poli-sci major. Apparently you don't identify with conservatives, either, because any degree of conservative would see this for what it is: encroachment on our ("the people's") rights by the federal government.

There are, and need to be, laws against unlawful search and seizure; all it takes is enough people like you, who see no problem with some anonymous suit declaring what is and isn't suspicious, and suddenly we're living in a country where you are suspected of being a criminal simply for possessing a perfectly legal inanimate object. I hear you saying "But if you aren't a criminal, having suspicion directed at you is harmless." Sure, until the definition of criminal is changed that is. Do I need to list quotes from the hundreds of politicians who would love to consider you a criminal for owning a gun?

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 01:54 PM
I absolutely do not identify myself as a conservative or a liberal, my ideological and political views have more depth and meaning than a mere name.

There is nothing unlawful about being asked about your weapons. Slippery slope arguments don't hold up either.

Colt Smith
July 2, 2009, 02:01 PM
Birdmang,

I know what you're saying and that would be true in a world that made sense. But here in this country, in this political climate, common sense is pretty much extinct. We are all coming from the mindset that we are law abiding gun owners so what do I need to worry about? But, even with best intentions it is so easy to get in trouble. With THOUSANDS of convoluted firearms laws on the books how are we supposed to do everything correctly every time? The fact and the reality is that we are being preyed upon not only by criminals but by our own justice system. Every year the laws become more restrictive and more onerous on honest people while no real effort is made towards reducing the causes of crime along with broken court and prison systems and the liberal media. All this effort to disarm us is ignoring the true problem. The problem is the conditions and mindsets that cause certain members of our society to disregard laws, conscience and compassion. The effort should be to eliminate hard criminals instead of manufacturing statutory offenders from well intentioned citizens that unwittingly violate some obscure statute or regulation. I cannot help but think of the quote from Jeffrey Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards" where he says "In the mid-sixties there was a public service advertising campaign targeted at car owners about the prevention of car theft. The purpose of the ad was to urge car owners not to leave their keys in their cars. The message was, "Don't help a good boy go bad." The implication was that, by leaving his keys in his car, the normal, law-abiding car owner was contributing to the delinquency of minors who, if they just weren't tempted beyond their limits, would be "good." Now, in those days people still had a fair sense of just who was responsible for whose behavior. The ad succeeded in enraging a goodly portion of the populace, and was soon dropped." That is the problem. Nobody is willing to put the blame where it belongs. We keep saying it but nobody is listening, guns are not the problem it's the criminals. If you have criminals loose in your country killing people then the criminals should be held accountable for their actions. If you take away all the guns(good luck) they will be killing people with machetes. When you take away all the machetes they will be killing people with rocks. At what point do we say our plan isn't working? When all the rocks are gone? Can you see how ridiculous this line of thinking is? Honest people should have much more freedom legally. There should be far fewer statues and regulations. And the laws should be easy to understand and consistent from state to state. But, if you commit a serious crime you should be held accountable. And if you commit your crimes in Mexico then Mexico should deal with it and not make it an American issue. The U.S. shouldn't be steppin' and fetchin' for a corrupt joke of a government like Mexico, IMHO.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 02:03 PM
Birdmang, interesting you were criticizing "liberals" in another thread recently. And that you're a poli-sci major. Apparently you don't identify with conservatives, either, because any degree of conservative would see this for what it is: encroachment on our ("the people's") rights by the federal government.

I consider myself to conservative or many issues and this story does not not bother me one little bit.

I'm sorry but I'd judge your view as extreme and not conservative, liberal or mainstream. This is simply the ATF doing what they are supposed to do, I don't see where anyone's rights were violated but if you can point out where in the report that occurs, I'd be happy to reconsider it.

The agents aren't going "door to door" They were following "leads"

ATF acting director Kenneth Melson described as a “massive number of investigative leads.”


All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico... :cool:

Seems like a VERY GOOD way for the ATF to be spending their time.

If you happened to buy a few handguns and disposed of them south of the border, then perhaps you should get a lawyer or three.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 02:07 PM
And if you commit your crimes in Mexico then Mexico should deal with it and not make it an American issue. The U.S. shouldn't be steppin' and fetchin' for a corrupt joke of a government like Mexico, IMHO.


And again, if you bought gunz and sold them in Mexico, you need lawyerz and lots of them. :uhoh:

Ignorance and lamentations of the lawz is not an an excuse.

TexasRifleman
July 2, 2009, 02:12 PM
OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico...

Actually this report doesn't say they are going to those people and asking them why their guns wound up in Mexico, they are going to people who have made multiple purchases and asking them where the guns are.

That's not really the same thing. This is a "prove you are innocent" type of investigation, not a "we have evidence you are connected to a crime and we would like more info".

If a gun I sold ended up in Mexico and the ATF came knocking I'd lawyer up and all that, but I would admit that yes indeed they are following a lead.

That is not what's going on here. These agents are visiting people who have done nothing more than purchase multiple handguns in a week. That is not a crime, it is not in and of itself connected to a crime.

That's not 'following a lead' or 'enforcing existing laws' since there is no crime.

Let's say I buy 5 handguns in a week and sell them all over a period of a few weeks to various buyers at local gun shows. That's legal. I am also not required to keep a paper trail on the disposition of those guns since I am not a dealer.

So ATF comes knocking, I decide to be a "good guy" and invite them in to answer their questions.

"Did you buy 5 handguns"

"Yes"

"Can we see them?"

"No, I sold them"

"Who did you sell them to?"

"No idea, some guys at a gunshow. They showed me a CHL but I didn't write any names down. They paid me cash"




Now what? No crime committed, no law broken.

What do you think will happen next?

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 02:21 PM
Slippery slope arguments don't hold up either.

Don't tell us that it could not happen in America.
It IS happening in America right now. Get your head out of the sand and
look around.
Mexico should deal with it's own problems. Why are Feds nosing around in other
people's lives over something that is across the border? Answer: It is the Perfect Storm. GREAT excuse to CONFISCATE citizens personal weaponry.

REMEMBER NAZI GERMANY... They went down a 'slippery slope.'

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 02:24 PM
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

Granted maybe some very SMALL percentage of guns in Mexico are from this situation, but it should still be pursued.

TexasRifleman
July 2, 2009, 02:25 PM
Granted maybe some very SMALL percentage of guns in Mexico are from this situation, but it should still be pursued.

Absolutely, but that's not what is happening here.

Colt Smith
July 2, 2009, 02:26 PM
Yes, I agree with you. I'm not advocating or supporting illegal gun running or profiteering. Again, people should be held accountable for their actions. Nor am I suggesting ignorance of the law is an excuse. But who among us knows ALL the laws? Without looking it up, can you tell me what Title 26 USC 5841 is? I wouldn't expect that. And it's not important what that exact law is. The point is that there are way too many laws. We should be concentrating on the finger not the trigger.

conw
July 2, 2009, 02:37 PM
Sorry, my mistake, the ATF has your best interests in mind. Cooperate and you will not be in trouble. Cooperation with large, faceless government agencies that operate off illegal data-gathering systems is always the best policy. Did you learn that in your poli sci classes, birdmang?

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 02:50 PM
Actually this report doesn't say they are going to those people and asking them why their guns wound up in Mexico, they are going to people who have made multiple purchases and asking them where the guns are.




Success on the front lines of a government blitz on gunrunners supplying Mexican drug cartels with Houston weaponry hinges on logging heavy miles and knocking on countless doors. Dozens of agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — sent here from around the country — are needed to follow what ATF acting director Kenneth Melson described as a “massive number of investigative leads.”

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

CoRoMo
July 2, 2009, 02:53 PM
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

It is impossible to stop this kind of crime unless you can successfully prohibit and confiscate every last firearm, or somehow impenetrably close the border to both sides. That's like saying our LEO should be stopping the drug trade. It's simply not possible.

This is nothing more than a fishing scheme for evidence to back up an assumption made many months ago.

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 02:56 PM
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

Don't believe it at all.... They (atf) can say anything
they want 'cause they are ABOVE
THE LAW!!

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 02:56 PM
The article asks the question how someone living in a run-down shack bought 5 high-end hand guns in one day?

That is a blatant red-flag and it's the mission of the ATF to investigate.

It's no secret Mexican cartels are getting hand guns from the US. The FA rifles are coming in from somewhere else but that is another matter.

carlrodd
July 2, 2009, 02:59 PM
i went to college too......and birdman, you strike me as the sort of person that naturally advocates for his area of "expertise", or anything even smacking of the area, no matter how wrong you might be. kind of like the the sociology student that defends senseless social programs simply because he studied why they came about and how they work.

if you deny the existence of the venerable slippery slope, widely observable throughout the history of how authories interact with populaces, you are living in denial of something as tangible as oxygen.

in this country, we are in a very real, constant struggle to preserve our right to keep arms. laying down for intrusiveness by ANY government agency, especially one with a reputation for very arbitrary policy and behaviour, is so far from the intentions that our good founders had for american citizens, it almost seems like certain people are just playing devil's advocate.....which leads back to my original point.

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 03:00 PM
Don't believe it at all.... They (atf) can say anything
they want 'cause they are ABOVE
THE LAW!!

You don't think this is happening?

Thinking that this isn't happening is just as ignorant as thinking that no Americans are involved and profiting in the illegal drugs being transported across the border by the cartels.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 03:00 PM
It is impossible to stop this kind of crime unless you can successfully prohibit and confiscate every last firearm, or somehow impenetrably close the border to both sides. That's like saying our LEO should be stopping the drug trade. It's simply not possible.

This is nothing more than a fishing scheme for evidence to back up an assumption made many months ago.

No dude, its an investigation. Guns were ALREADY traced back to the Houston area and when the ATF goes out and rattles doorknobs, they are going to discourage some of this illegal activity as well as provide some cover to the politicos, so they can say they are doing something about it.

Its unrealistic to think the ATF should just sit in their offices and do nothing about this.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 03:03 PM
in this country, we are in a very real, constant struggle to preserve our right to keep arms. laying down for intrusiveness by ANY government agency, especially one with a reputation for very arbitrary policy and behaviour, is so far from the intentions that our good founders had for american citizens, it almost seems like certain people are just playing devil's advocate.....which leads back to my original point.

That has nothing to do with the ATF doing its job. At all...

You would rather they be put in a box and that's fine, its just not realistic.

dillynfw
July 2, 2009, 03:08 PM
The lamest so far came from a police officer: He said he bought a few military-style rifles, left them in his car and — on the same night — forgot to lock a door. He couldn’t explain why he didn’t file a police report or why he visited Mexico the day after the alleged theft.

OK this is a biggie that no one is mentioning. This is the second time that a LEO [snort] officer has been caught running guns to Mexico (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/27/national/main4897201.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4897201)-I know it doesn't explicitly say that's what this guy did, but come on... Pretty apparent. So these are the people so many of you are trusting to 'just enforce existing laws'.

I've said it a million times and no one is listening HUGO CHAVEZ'S AK-103 FACTORY IS SOLELY FOR ARMING THESE TYPES OF LEFTIST AND NARCO GROUPS. Ditto Ortega, and no doubt Zelaya would have tried. The drug gangs can much more easily do this than sneak back and forth across the border with money and guns.

Nothing against the AK-103. I have one: They're great.

Also this is exactly the same thing that went on with alcohol during prohibition. What ever happened with that situation?:cool:

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 03:12 PM
You don't think this is happening?

Not to the degree purported by your Big Brother, friendly neighborhood ATF. BTW, you have 'little' recourse if you are accused of a minor infraction. Lawyer? Big deal.. Judges will almost ALWAYS fix the jury to rule in favor of government. You don't think that's tyranny?
It is too bad that there are many here that would
exchange their personal liberty for "safety".
Government gets a free pass don't they. REMEMBER NAZI GERMANY..

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 03:14 PM
Also this is exactly the same thing that went on with alcohol during prohibition. What ever happened with that situation?

That is something to think about. If Mexico updated their constitution and allowed their citizens to own firearms, we wouldn't have anymore problems. :D


Its still against the law to shoot cops though...

Grey_Mana
July 2, 2009, 03:15 PM
I actually agree with ACORN on this one (I died a little typing that).
No warrant, no search.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpSY8d3gRc&feature=channel

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 03:16 PM
the ATF should just sit in their offices and do nothing about this.

Yes AT THE LEAST.. This is a 'smoke screen', folks.
The gang that brought you Waco, Ruby Ridge and probably OKC.
Our WONDERFUL Gov't agencies!!!

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 03:28 PM
I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.

Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.

If you think about it these two statements (both by Birdmang) really aren’t that far out there. I mean isn’t this exactly what we’re indoctrinated with from kindergarten up? Along with “ The only people who plead the fifth are criminals”.

So when someone shows up on THR spouting them why should it surprise us?

Honestly for the most part these are true statements, but they don’t take into account that police (regardless what variety) do make mistakes. They also don’t take into account that with so many laws on the books (even the justice department doesn’t know how many) you could place yourself at risk by confessing to a crime that you don’t even know is a crime.

Bottom line, regardless of my guilt or innocence it is in my best interest not to answer any questions with out seeking the advice of counsel. So when the ATF shows up on my front porch asking about a perfectly legal action I took they will be referred to my attorney.

As far as the two guns a week rule how long do you think it’s going to take until the bad guys (if any) just start spreading out their purchases or simply buying their guns private sale or doing what they have been all along and stealing them?

As usual the only people affected by this will be the law abiding citizen

Koos Custodiet
July 2, 2009, 03:36 PM
It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.

Would love to know what that is.


Handguns. They said.

/file under "inane reporting"

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 03:46 PM
Maybe my views are a little Utopian on the American government agencies and how they act or should be acting, but this can be discussed without anger or personal shots.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 03:55 PM
Maybe my views are a little Utopian on the American government agencies and how they act or should be acting, but this can be discussed without anger or personal shots.

I think you're OK on this. I have my doubts on whether the federal government is serving us or the highest bider but the ATF does have a job to do.

CoRoMo
July 2, 2009, 04:06 PM
Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something

Or if unbeknownst to you, a simple mistake has been made somewhere. That's what these ATF agents are employed to do.

I know, I know. You either don't make mistakes or you are well aware of each one you've ever made. Lucky you.

Dokkalfar
July 2, 2009, 04:08 PM
:
Should the feds question everyone who has an internet connection to see if they have any child pornography? Should everyone who buys a bag of fertilizer at home depot be questioned?
That has nothing to do with whether or not the feds should conduct investigations of people suspected of strawman purchasing. And IMHO, the answer to that question is yes they should and they should do so vigorously.

it may have nothing to do with it, but it is a related argument. Let me rephrase it: Should the feds question you because you have something that might be usable in a criminal act?
Bank account: you might be tax frauding. Screwdriver: can be used to kill. Cash: drug money? did you report it for taxes? Your car: does it meet all enviro standards? might it be used in a drive-by? hit and run? Power Drill: might it be used to break into a building?


OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico...
Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.

It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.

Hmmm... so can someone please explain how this guy's serial numbers were traced from Mexico when they were never in Mexico?
ATF is NOT just checking up on guns traced from Mexico, they are checking all the multiple purchasers, which in and of itself is NOT in any way probable cause for a crime. The ONLY WAY I could see this one as justified is if he had OTHER firearms that were traced from Mexico, and the two pistols were not the reason he was talked to. Which, given the story, was not the case.

Deanimator
July 2, 2009, 04:19 PM
Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.
Did you ever ask Richard Jewell or the Duke lacrosse team about that?

How about if the agents in question are incompetent and don't know the law and your rights?

How about if the agents in question are malicious and don't care about the law and your rights?

How about if YOU don't know the law and your rights and inadvertently incriminate yourself in a crime you didn't even have anything to do with?

Do you have a lot of experience conducting or being the subject of criminal investigations? If not, how do you know whether your rights are being violated? How do you know if you're falsely incriminating yourself?

Talking to LEOs in a criminal investigation without competent legal counsel present is the equivalent of performing brain surgery on yourself. Your first mistake could be your last.

Animal Mother
July 2, 2009, 04:45 PM
Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.

I must have missed the judicial reforms that eliminated the possibility of wrongful prosecution. When did this happen?

SkySlash
July 2, 2009, 04:58 PM
I think what the ATF is doing here is completely illegal for a number of reasons.

ATF 2010 Budget (http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/2010justification/pdf/fy10-atf.pdf) - Hit CTRL-F and use "trace" as your search term.

ATF Firearm Trace Reports (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/trace_data/index.htm) - State by state reports on firearms trace information.

ATF Trace Request Form (http://www.forms.gov/bgfPortal/docDetails.do;jsessionid=25DF4CBDEA6647637AAA15B9F6016D82?dId=14216)

Those links should provide sufficient proof that the ATF does in fact do data mining on firearms, and traces them from manufacturer, to dealer, to original purchaser using trace data.

The Misuse of BATF Firearms Tracing Data (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/CluelessBATFtracing.htm) - For those still confused on what an ATF Trace is, or how it works, here is an excellent and very well sourced article explaining what, how, and why it is. The topic addressed by that article is different than what I am addressing here, but it still explains what firearm trace data is, very well.

Now, all of the above seems perfectly above board, business as usual, and doesn't seem to be against any law. In order to trace a firearm using the above process, the ATF has to have a firearm (used in a crime) in hand in order to use its serial number to conduct the trace. This isn't the problem though, nor is it why people are up in arms. People are hopping mad because of the fact that the ATF has started using a trace process similar to the above, but in a different way, and in violation of law in order to trace firearms, without actually having a physical firearm in hand to begin the trace. Instead of tracing guns that have been recovered from crimes, the ATF has launched an effort to witch hunt individuals that have bought guns that the ATF has deemed "gangster friendly" or "Mexico Desired." That is their focus through "Project Gunrunner" and it is something they did many years back in a program called "Operation Forward Trace" under the Clinton Administration. I believe they are going about this in a highly suspect, and I believe; completely illegal manner. First, let me point out 3 things that the ATF is doing that I believe are illegal.

1) Violating the FOPA by recording private buyer information from form 4473 from FFL holders.

2) Violating the Tiahrt Amendment by using the illegally obtained data to conduct baseless investigations into private citizens who legally purchased the guns they've decided to target in their witch hunt.

3) Are threatening FFL holders who refuse to assist them in breaking the law with legal action, and threatening to revoke their license.

Let's talk about the "Tiahrt Amendment" for a minute, so I can lay out why what the ATF is doing is illegal. President Obama singled out this piece of law in his campaign, and its still on the White House Website as a goal to get repealed. He wants it gone, as do other gun control proponents, specifically because it limits what the ATF and other agencies can do with firearm trace data. Specifically, the "Tiahrt Amendment" does the following:

1) Prohibits the ATF from using trace data or releasing it to federal, state, and local agencies, unless in connection with and for use in a bona fide criminal investigation or prosecution.

In other words, you cannot use the trace data unless it is part of a legitimate criminal investigation into a crime that you already know has occurred. It does not allow using the data for a witch hunt to try and create an investigation.

2) Requires the FBI to destroy any record of a NICS background check within 24 hours of the check being conducted, and prohibits retention of any of this information in any kind of a government database.

The US Government has been sued by the NRA (http://davekopel.org/2A/Lawsuits/NRA-versus-Reno.htm) for failure to destroy this information in accordance with law before, but clearly it still remains a problem as the ATF has found a new way to get around it.

3) Prohibits the ATF from releasing "firearm trace data" on the basis that it serves no useful purpose. The Congressional Research Service has repeatedly said "firearm trace data may be biased" and "cannot be used to test for statistical significance between firearm traces in general and the wider population of firearms available to criminals or the wider American public."(Congressional Research Service, Gun Control: Statutory Disclosure Limitations on ATF Firearms Trace Data and Multiple Handgun Sales Reports 3 (June 30, 2006).) These limitations exist because the "tracing system is an operational system designed to help law enforcement agencies identify the ownership path of individual firearms. It was not designed to collect statistics."(Congressional Research Service, Assault Weapons@: Military-Style Semiautomatic Firearms Facts and Issues (May 13, 1992).)

Regardless of that prohibition, the ATF is farming this data out to the GAO, elected reps, and the media to use as a statistical reference in pushing the garbage about US guns in Mexico. The same body that said the data was statistically useless (Congress) has been gleefully using it for statistics to drum up support for new gun regulations. Here's some glaring proof of that in an ATF Testimony before Congress (http://appropriations.house.gov/Witness_testimony/CJS/William_Newell_03_24_09.pdf) by numerous ATF Agents. These agents used the "firearm trace data" as statistical proof of the guns from the US to Mexico "problem." Nevermind, Congress has already told the ATF such as use is illegal and that the data is effectively useless for this purpose.

Now let's talk about how the ATF is violating FOPA. The ATF is in violation of the FOPA (Firearm Owner Protection Act) by conducting audits of gun dealers Form 4473 (Firearm Transfer Form) and collecting the names of the buyers off of those forms.

THE FIREARMS OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT:
A HISTORICAL AND LEGAL PERSPECTIVE (http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html) - This is a incredibly comprehensive study of the FOPA and it demonstrates the following abuses by the ATF:

1) Gathering the names of buyers off of Form 4473.

The FOPA states the following in regard to inspection of licensee information:
1. Inspection and Acquisition of Licensee Records
The Gun Control Act required licensees to maintain records of firearm acquisitions, dispositions, and inventories. Furthermore, it permitted warrantless inspection of these "at all reasonable times," and broadly authorized the Secretary to require submission of reports on the records' content. FOPA establishes significant restrictions on the two latter powers. In general, administrative inspections of licensee records now require a magistrate's warrant, based on a showing of reasonable cause to believe evidence of a violation may be found. Three exceptions, however, nearly swallow this rule. Neither warrant nor reasonable cause is needed for (1) a reasonable inquiry in the course of a criminal investigation of a person other than the licensee; (2) an annual inspection for ensuring compliance with recordkeeping requirements; or (3) tracing a firearm in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. While (p.655)these sizably reduce application of the warrant and cause requirement, it remains effective for its primary purpose in any event: to prevent inspections undertaken without immediate law enforcement need, or abused for the purpose of harassment.

FOPA also institutes some measures designed to minimize the harassment potential of an otherwise authorized inspection or search. Only records material to a violation of law may be seized and even as to these, copies must be furnished the licensee within a reasonable time. The unusual appearance of the last protection vanishes upon reflection; because a licensee is legally bound to buy and sell only upon recordation, removal of his records is more than an inconvenience.

The power of the Secretary to acquire licensee records is likewise limited by FOPA. Requirements to (1) submit records upon going out of business, (2) submit a report upon sale of more than one handgun to the same person during the same week and (3) submit reports of sales when ordered to do so by the Secretary, are enacted into law. Conversely, the Secretary is forbidden to require submission of reports "except as expressly required by this section." Paralleling this prohibition is the proviso that no (p.656)future regulation may require that any records required by the Act "be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any state or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."

In other words, keep your da*n hands off of the private data records from legal firearms transactions, unless you have a legal, protected, legitimate reason to obtain it in the course of an investigation into a known crime.

The ATF is violating this prohibition by searching through the records of border state FFL holders, and pulling the names and addresses of buyers of certain types of guns, in order to go investigate them and ask them why they bought the guns, what they did with them, and to physically inspect them. Granted, since they don't have a warrant, they are only asking, but they got to this point by illegally obtaining privately protected information. They should never legally have had access to this information in the first place, PERIOD! Because most people are intimidated by questioning from a Federal Agent, and because they typically don't know their own rights, they are volunteering information to the ATF that the ATF has no legal justification for knowing, much less even asking about at all. It is a witch hunt clearly intended to find evidence of possible crimes.

Evidence of such investigations occurring:


100 Agents sent to Texas (http://www.sfexaminer.com/nation/ap/48297427.html) - These agents will be solely devoted to "Project Gunrunner" and developing leads to try and find people who may be selling guns to Mexican gun smugglers.

Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6505651.html) - This article has a few references that indicate the ATF is getting their information through dealer records, and not because they have any crime guns in hand. It specifically states that because "the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law, Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person."

HOUSTONIAN SENTENCED TO PRISON FOR LYING TO BUY GUNS (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txs/releases/April%202009/041709Hernandez.htm) - In this link, the ATF itself admits it began an investigation into Hernandez after a routine regulatory inspection of a local firearms dealer’s records showed the cash purchases of a large number of military-style firearms. Now granted, this guy was a scumbag, and he was breaking the law, but the ATF broke the law in order to find that information out. They used privately protected information to begin an investigation into someone, solely on the basis of information they obtained by violating the Firearm Owner Protection Act. And they didn't discover in the inspection of the forms that these purchases were cash, they would have needed the FFL to disclose that as it isn't something that is recorded on the firearm transfer form. Thus they were collecting private transaction data as well, without cause or a warrant. That's also illegal and is privately protected financial information. The ATF would have caught up with this guy legally, as some of the guns he bought were eventually recovered in Mexico. Upon that legitimate criminal use being discovered, the legitimate use of trace data would have led them to Hernandez.

ATF: Phoenix Gun Dealer Supplied Mexican Drug Cartels (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4796380&page=1) - In this article, the ATF again used information obtained from Form 4473, in violation of FOPA, to begin an investigation as a result of "pattern buying that looked suspicious." According to federal and local officials, the investigation began after an ATF review of X Caliber's records showed "an obvious pattern of firearms purchases consistent with firearms trafficking." Again, the ATF busted a scumbag, but they did so using illegally obtained information.

In an effort to ramp up arrests, anecdotal evidence is springing up around the Internet from people who are saying the ATF is showing up at their door to ask them about weapons they purchased legally. These people consistently say they have never sold weapons to anyone, that the weapons are still in their possession, and that the ATF is demanding to see the physical firearm for inspection. Granted, these are anecdotal, but they have been happening consistent with the news stories above, and the description of events in each case is virtually identical in nature. The NRA has actually received enough member complaints of these activities that they have set up a number to call to report the actions, and they are looking into the complaints.

Some links to people currently alleging these events:

Air Force (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=366483) Soldier contacted by ATF about guns bought in Texas. Note, the only way the ATF could know about these guns is by obtaining info on the buyer from the Form 4473, a violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment.

Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update* (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650) - This one is a guy who knew his rights and told the ATF no, he wanted to talk to his lawyer. Upon advice from the lawyer, he told the ATF they'd need a warrant. He alleges the ATF got nasty upon that revelation. He also states he hasn't sold so the only way the ATF could get his info, again, is by violating FOPA and Tiahrt Amendment by stealing it off of a Form 4473.

I'm in SE Texas ( the center of the gravity of Project Gunner- see atf.gov) and had a check last week. (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=891922&page=2) - This guy is a dealer and he alleges that the ATF reviewed his records, specifically looking for buyers with unusual numbers purchased of certain models. He states that the only guy the agent was interested in was one that met the "gangster preferred" gun model criteria, and happened to be his cousin. This information was obtained in violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment. The next post, a dealer from Ft Worth alleges he had an agent in specifically racially profiling for hispanics.

ATF Agents had copies of the Form 4473 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=455650&page=6) - This guy states 2 ATF agents showed up asking about guns he'd bought, and they actually had copies of the Form 4473 he filled out. That is a major no-no and a HUGE violation of multiple sections of the FOPA. To me, it is additional evidence that the ATF is illegally reverse tracing firearms to try and drum up leads to create criminal investigations.

NRA (http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=4990) - This article is an alert to NRA members that a substantial number of their members have been approached by ATF Agents regarding legally owned weapons. It also gives info on how to report these events to the NRA, and how to seek legal counsel to protect your privacy. It also states "some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics. One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate."

This is probably insufficient evidence for most of the skeptics here, but for most people, this is understood as business as usual for one of, if not the most corrupt agencies in the United States. This is an agency that has consistently and routinely been known to violate the law and to outright fabricate "evidence" to harrass and intimidate gun owners.

I believe the events I'm relaying are on the front end of this new push, but as the agents settle into a routine, I have a feeling these stories are going to start exploding in frequency.

What the ATF is doing is illegal, and if you give enough of a da*n about it, you need to raise hell to your congresscritter!

-SS :mad:

CoRoMo
July 2, 2009, 05:04 PM
Sky... that is impressive. Well done.

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 05:42 PM
That information linked with a budget makes it a lot easier to see it more clearly.

Thank you.

Animal Mother
July 2, 2009, 05:50 PM
Fantastic work SkySlash. I'm tempted to use some of that in a letter to my congress critter.

Can we make that a sticky?

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 06:21 PM
So what is the ATF supposed to do? Sit back and watch the gangs in the border states smuggle weapons over the border? :uhoh:

SkySlash's posts assume an awful lot of illegal activity but they are assumptions at best. The problem is real and real scumbags are involved in it.

From the ATF link:

Reducing Violence on the Southwest Border – Project Gunrunner

The violence fueled by firearms trafficking is demonstrated in the crisis on our Southwest Border. Our firearms trafficking strategy complements our continued focus on the deployment of resources to specific localities where there is a high incidence of gang and gun violence. Through firearms trafficking interdiction efforts, ATF decreases the availability of illicit firearms
and recommends for prosecution those who illegally supply firearms to prohibited possessors.


Violent gang members are often involved in firearms trafficking, both for potential profit and in furtherance of drug trafficking and other crimes. Recent trends have shown an increase in the number of firearms recovered in Mexico, and these firearms fuel the growing violence along the border, including the brutal murders of hundreds of law enforcement officers and government officials.

ATF’s Southwest Border initiative, Project Gunrunner, is a focused subset of ATF’s broader firearms trafficking initiative, addressing U.S.-based firearms trafficking that is fueling the violence along the Southwest Border and nationwide. Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S. In the Southwest Border States, ATF’s primary role
is to stem the illegal trafficking of weapons across the border and to reduce the firearms driven violence now occurring on both sides of the international boundary. ATF is focused on shutting off the sources of firearms to violent offenders and criminal organizations, from both commercial dealers using “straw purchasers” and secondary markets such as gun shows. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and the Government of Mexico, ATF’s Project Gunrunner focuses on deploying resources on the Southwest Border to investigate the sources of firearms identified from trace data supplied by its Mexican counterparts. The trace data is derived from firearms recovered in the Mexican “market” areas.

Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. In 2008, ATF deployed eTrace technology to the nine U.S. consulates in Mexico. ATF provided extensive training to Mexican law enforcement personnel on firearms tracing and trafficking techniques. ATF and the government of Mexico
have discussed (and continue to discuss) decentralizing the firearms tracing process in order to deploy a Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexican law enforcement agencies.

In the past two years, ATF seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate that the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005 to FY 2007 and identified the following weapons of choice most commonly used by drug traffickers: 9mm pistols; .38 Super pistols;
5.7mm pistols; .45-caliber pistols; AR-15 type rifles, and AK-47 type rifles.

Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTOs.) DTOs are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the U.S. and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms from illicit suppliers to enforce and maintain their narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures with reaching into the U.S. to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTOs are among the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the U.S.

ATF currently has approximately 145 agents, 60 IOIs, and 12 forensic auditors assigned to Project Gunrunner, as part of a broad plan to increase strategic coverage of and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border. Additionally, ATF has dedicated four Intelligence Research Specialists (IRSs) and a special agent intelligence officer to intelligence
collection, analysis, and information sharing.
**********************************


The ATF is not the bad guy here. The border states and Mexico have had blurred borders and a blurred culture for many years. Maybe we
are destined to turn into another Mexico, we certainly import enough Mexicans to qualify.

When the US Mexican gangs start shooting up US LEO's like their counter-parts in Mexico do with hair-raising frequency, watch how fast a complete and total gun ban comes roaring down the pike but again, some people feel that is the ultimate goal. Controlled chaos and such...

All I do know is the ATF has their hands full.

waterhouse
July 2, 2009, 06:37 PM
I just skimmed it, but I believe at least a small portion of your information is incorrect.

Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update* - This one is a guy who knew his rights and told the ATF no, he wanted to talk to his lawyer. Upon advice from the lawyer, he told the ATF they'd need a warrant. He alleges the ATF got nasty upon that revelation. He also states he hasn't sold so the only way the ATF could get his info, again, is by violating FOPA and Tiahrt Amendment by stealing it off of a Form 4473.

The guy in the thread clearly stated that he purchased 2 handguns from the same dealer within a 5 day period, which prompted a Multiple Handgun Sales form. that is how the ATF got his info.

SkySlash
July 2, 2009, 06:41 PM
No, you're right Mike, we should just let the ATF continue to break the law and violate people's rights in order to pretend they are addressing this issue with your best interests in mind... :banghead:

The real issue with US Guns in Mexico is an entirely different problem altogether. The guns swamping Mexico are coming primarily from everywhere but the US, and the ones that are from the US primarily came from the US Military as a part of President Bush's failed "Plan Mexico" initiative in 2007.

Search for my thread on that if you want a really enlightening read.

-SS

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 06:57 PM
No you're wrong about where the guns in Mexico are coming from. They are getting most of their pistols here and FA long guns elsewhere. I already mentioned that in this thread...

If you think for a minute that Mexican based gangs in the border states are not making a lot of money smuggling guns over the border, than you probably still believe in Santa.

I'm sorry to say, but in my humble opinion guys like you that love to spread the word about how dangerous law enforcement is and how they endanger your rights are as bad and as dangerous as the far leftists who coddle and excuse criminals.

Again, what is the ATF supposed to do when they have trace data from Mexico that show the guns are coming from the US.


Oh yeah, I forgot they are lying and there really are no Mexican gangs or drug cartels in Mexico. Its all a big conspiracy so ATF agents can look at 4473 forms... :eek:

waterhouse
July 2, 2009, 07:06 PM
ATF is permitted to check FFLs, their inventory, and the 4473 without a warrant (C.F.R. § 178.23(b))

Skyslash, your bold statement above point to the fact that only records material to a violation of the law may be seized. Do you have a cite for that? If that is exactly what the law says, it seems that it is within the law for the ATF to come inspect the FFL premises, check the 4473s, write down anything they feel is suspicious, and follow up on it. In this instance they did not seize any records. For that matter, bringing a copier along with them and making copies of 4473 doesn't appear to legally be seizing either.

I'm not happy about it, but you imply that they are breaking the law when it appears they may legally be allowed to do exactly what they are doing.

Also, I'm not sure your understanding of FOPA is correct.
18 U.S.C. 923 (j)

No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

No rule may require that 4473s be recorded at or transferred to a gov't facility, and you can't register guns.

That's basically how I read it, but I'm not a lawyer. Again, I'm not a fan of what the ATF is doing, but I'm not sure doing inspections and following up on what they feel are suspicious purchases goes against the law.

dillynfw
July 2, 2009, 07:15 PM
Writs of Assistance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writs_of_Assistance#In_colonial_America)

'nuff said.

But I'll say more anyway: Cops harass the ones they know won't shoot back and the "Criminal" "Justice" "System" lets the real fiends go. Maybe if I was a cop I'd be afraid to go after the real machine-gun-toting scumbags, too. But I doubt I'd ever taser a Pastor (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/02/2009-07-02_pastor_and_.html). Or beat up an ambulance driver (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/15/crimesider/entry5089429.shtml). Or shoot an 8-year old (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/028338.html). Or beat and mace a bunch of middle-aged women (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/28/Fundraiser-hostess-arrested-after-melee/UPI-33501246203207/). Or shoot two innocent people in a week span (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/28/florida-police-fatally-shoot-woodbridge-man/?source=newsletter_must-read-stories-today_more_news_carousel&). Or, well, you get the picture (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=oC9NSuS1OoW7twer_dGoBA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=no+knock+warrants+deaths&spell=1).

And 2/3 of this garbage with the no-knock warrants (IE the type of stuff Ernst Roehm did) is instigated by 'tips' from 'informants' who are wacked out on drugs themselves.

Ever actually rely on the police or prosecutors for anything? I KNOW if you did, it did NOT get done.

BbBBbbBBBbbut, LEO's can be trusted.......right?

If you don't like it, don't be a cop. Because this BS ain't makin' me safer. In fact police brutality has skyrocketed right alongside crime. Seems counter intuitive. If it's the 'combat stress' of their jobs, we've failed big time as a society and citizens in stopping crime and diffusing situations that turn cops into thugs. And none of that will change until cops stand up and say enough and stop allowing their sleazy unions to cover for the dirty ones. Paid leave for shooting people? I'd shoot 4 people a year and work 4 days.

Statist gubment worshipers feel free to respond as though your buddy-buddy attitude towards them will somehow save you from their tactics when your time comes.

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 07:16 PM
They are getting most of their pistols here
Source?

Deanimator
July 2, 2009, 07:23 PM
Again, what is the ATF supposed to do when they have trace data from Mexico that show the guns are coming from the US.
I have no control over what they do until it impinges upon my legal rights.

That's why I have a lawyer and know not to talk to any LEO about any substantive matter without him present.

They can ask all they want. They won't get ANYTHING but "I have nothing to say without my attorney present." Anything after that is entirely contingent upon my attorney's legal advice.

And that's the way it's going to be, PERIOD.

The BATFE doesn't have to like it.
You don't have to like it.

You just have to abide by it as required by law.

waterhouse
July 2, 2009, 07:28 PM
dilly, I don't know what your post has to do with the topic of the ATF knocking on doors, but the generic cop bashing will likely get the thread closed.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:50 PM
have no control over what they do until it impinges upon my legal rights.

That's why I have a lawyer and know not to talk to any LEO about any substantive matter without him present.

They can ask all they want. They won't get ANYTHING but "I have nothing to say without my attorney present." Anything after that is entirely contingent upon my attorney's legal advice.

And that's the way it's going to be, PERIOD.

The BATFE doesn't have to like it.
You don't have to like it.

You just have to abide by it as required by law.


And that has what to do with the topic at hand?

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:52 PM
Statist gubment worshipers feel free to respond as though your buddy-buddy attitude towards them will somehow save you from their tactics when your time comes.

:rolleyes:

In the unlikely event you have JBT's on your six, contact the friendly folks at the ACLU. :neener:

SkySlash
July 2, 2009, 07:53 PM
waterhouse, that interpretation of FOPA was written by a renowned 2nd Amendment attorney, which is fully sourced at the link.

-SS

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:56 PM
Quote:
They are getting most of their pistols here

Source?

SkySlash posted it. :p

http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/2010justification/pdf/fy10-atf.pdf



ATF’s Southwest Border initiative, Project Gunrunner, is a focused subset of ATF’s broader firearms trafficking initiative, addressing U.S.-based firearms trafficking that is fueling the violence along the Southwest Border and nationwide. Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S. In the Southwest Border States, ATF’s primary role is to stem the illegal trafficking of weapons across the border and to reduce the firearms driven violence now occurring on both sides of the international boundary. ATF is focused on shutting off the sources of firearms to violent offenders and criminal organizations, from both commercial dealers
using “straw purchasers” and secondary markets such as gun shows. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and the Government of Mexico, ATF’s Project Gunrunner focuses on deploying resources on the Southwest Border to investigate the sources of firearms identified from trace data supplied by its Mexican counterparts. The trace data is derived from firearms recovered in the Mexican “market” areas.

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 08:04 PM
the generic cop bashing will likely get the thread closed.

Nobodys 'bashing' anybody...

I must have missed the judicial reforms that eliminated the possibility of wrongful prosecution. When did this happen?

Very well said...
I am NOT impressed with those of you who can quote statutes. You should be quoting the Founding Fathers, but you can't. (or won't) Why, I'll never know.
The ATF can be proven to be one the worst infringements upon the 2nd Amendment in history, along with NFA 34 and GCA 68.

Deanimator
July 2, 2009, 08:09 PM
And that has what to do with the topic at hand?
It's called sage advice on what to do, for anyone who gets one of these visits from the BATFE.

Do NOT talk to them without a lawyer present.

SkySlash
July 2, 2009, 08:17 PM
Mike, I posted that to show that the ATF is using the data to create statistics. Congress specifically prohibited them from doing that in the Tiahrt Amendment because the data is unreliable and can't be used by law for that purpose. Reread my first post in this thread, as I made that pretty clear.

In short, the 90% cited by the ATF is unfounded, and derived from information Congress has stated is so bad it can't be used for anything legally.

Hardly a very good source to cite. Mebbe try again?

-SS

TexasRifleman
July 2, 2009, 08:18 PM
Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S.

Yes, that number is true. You left out the part where most of them were sold to the government of Mexico by the government of the United States.

withdrawn34
July 2, 2009, 08:23 PM
You also left out the part where it's 90% of the weapons sent to the US for tracing by American authorities.

They select weapons they think come from the US. How? They usually have "made in USA" stamped on them. The mass majority have no markings of any sort, and are made in developing countries and in South America itself; all countries with strict gun control.

A small percentage of guns actually used in Mexico come from the US. As far as heavy weaponry, ask the Mexican government for serial numbers. They won't give you any because everyone will know that those weapons used to belong to the Mexican army... sold to them by way of the US government, supposedly to help them fight exactly what is happening right now.

It's kind of like saying 100% of the cars in the US come from Japanese-based companies, yet only sampling Toyotas in your study. Obviously your figure will reflect a high percentage.

The reason they specifically selected those weapons is because they think the US will at least have something to trace them by. There's no point sending unstamped weaponry since there are no serial numbers, no manufacturer stamp, nothing.

Rockwell1
July 2, 2009, 09:48 PM
Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S.

Of course that may also mean weapons legally purchased by the Mexican Government for military usw that get 'diverted" to the cartels by corrupt mexican cops

Animal Mother
July 2, 2009, 10:22 PM
Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S.

Fox News thoroughly debunked this false statistic.

"The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

conw
July 2, 2009, 10:32 PM
the ATF doing its job.

Ah, "just following orders" you mean.

gyp_c2
July 2, 2009, 10:50 PM
The mission is especially challenging because, officials say, that while Houston is the number one point of origin for weapons traced back to the United States from Mexico, the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law.


I think this is the point...

The administration has already expressed a desire for database expansion in this and other areas...
As long as it's a paper trail...it's tough work...
I think what they'd prefer is to sit in an office and look all this up on a computer...
It seems to me the incorrect statements get plenty of play while the actual numbers are seldom expressed as true stats...
It was stated several times that the US is supplying a high percentage of weapons but of the figures actually given, the numbers are much lower...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

taprackbang
July 2, 2009, 11:32 PM
I sure wish rifles came in black!
-Thomas Jefferson

Did TJ really say that??

waterhouse
July 3, 2009, 12:05 AM
waterhouse, that interpretation of FOPA was written by a renowned 2nd Amendment attorney, which is fully sourced at the link.

I read the link. I did not see your interpretation there (i.e. "In other words, keep your damn hands . . ."

If what they were doing was actually against the law, they wouldn't gain much from doing it as they'd never get a conviction. The defense attorney would poke right through it. "So, you illegally obtained this data by looking at a 4473 that was kept at a dealer's place of business? I'd like the case dismissed."

That isn't how things go in these cases, so I'm pretty sure it is legal for the ATF to go to a dealer and inspect the 4473s and note information when they believe a crime has been committed.

orionengnr
July 3, 2009, 12:08 AM
Hey, I have an idea...

If we actually had a secure border that worked in both directions this would not be an issue...

(nah, what was I thinking?... :rolleyes:)

conw
July 3, 2009, 01:36 AM
Did TJ really say that??

Nah, it was to illustrate that people post quotes that ridiculous because they read them somewhere. (The other part of my sig admonishes to verify quotes before you post them :))

NC-Mike
July 3, 2009, 03:11 AM
Quote:
And that has what to do with the topic at hand?

It's called sage advice on what to do, for anyone who gets one of these visits from the BATFE.

Do NOT talk to them without a lawyer present.

I have no problem with that at all.

If it was me, and I knew I had nothing to hide, I'd invite the ATF boys inside, answer their questions, maybe give them a drink and tell them how much I enjoy all their products. :p

NC-Mike
July 3, 2009, 03:15 AM
Mike, I posted that to show that the ATF is using the data to create statistics. Congress specifically prohibited them from doing that in the Tiahrt Amendment because the data is unreliable and can't be used by law for that purpose. Reread my first post in this thread, as I made that pretty clear.

In short, the 90% cited by the ATF is unfounded, and derived from information Congress has stated is so bad it can't be used for anything legally.

Hardly a very good source to cite. Mebbe try again?

-SS

Yeah, I know but you did post it...

Just yanking yer shorts a bit. :neener:




To me the entire argument is just frustrating. Here we are in the age of information and we as a society can't get it together to the point where law enforcement could use existing technology to find out who's doing something they shouldn't be doing and that would protect and preserve the rights of the law-abiding.

We have a very long way to go to get there.

Art Eatman
July 3, 2009, 01:05 PM
Enuf runnin' in circles...

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