Anyone familiar with K&N air filter cleaner?


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ScareyH22A
July 1, 2009, 01:43 PM
Is it just me or is Mpro7 the exact same stuff? Ever since I was introduced to Mpro7, I couldn't get over the familiarity of the smell and the color and consistency of it as well. About 12 or 13 years ago, I used to work at a speed shop and used K&N air filter cleaner quite often and one day as I was cleaning my weapon I had the "Ah-Ha!" moment. I dug around all my junk and found a full bottle of K&N cleaner and went over to my bench to compare. It smells and looks exactly like Mpro7! Anyways, just wondering if anyone else found the correlation or if I was just crazy. Thanks for reading. Oh, and if this isn't "gun related" I do apologize.

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monza66mo
July 1, 2009, 01:46 PM
Good question... I don't know the answer but if it's the same stuff, I'll know what to use the next time I run out of gun cleaning stuff. I clean my guns a heck of a lot more frequently than I do my K&N's.

conarth
July 1, 2009, 02:05 PM
Interesting. I'll check tonight. I have both.

Superlite27
July 1, 2009, 02:07 PM
Which one costs more?

ScareyH22A
July 1, 2009, 02:22 PM
Well... don't know but MPro7 is quite expensive. http://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-M-Pro7-Dual-Gun-Clr/dp/B001F0NZBA/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1246468845&sr=8-11

32oz M-Pro 7 is about $25 and 32oz K&N cleaner is about $10

I'm almost certain that they're not exactly the same thing but still...

JohnBT
July 1, 2009, 02:30 PM
Nope, I just looked at the MSDS sheets. Totally different.

The K&N is mostly "Disodium Metasilicate 5-10%"

ScareyH22A
July 1, 2009, 02:41 PM
I'm assuming Disodium has something to do with salt? So no bueno for steel firearms?

JWF III
July 1, 2009, 05:01 PM
K&N cleaner or oil?

I never have any of the cleaner left over. But now, I have plenty of K&N oil laying around in various places. Finding another use for the oil would help me clean out some trash.

Not real sure of the comparison to Mpro7, I've never used that stuff. I'm more of a Hoppe's No.9 guy, and Rusty Duck lubricant for the inards.

Wyman

ETA-I'm assuming Disodium has something to do with salt?

Not neccessarily. Salt is NaCl or Sodium Chloride. It is possible to have sodium in a substance and it not be salt. (But it's been a long time since HS chemistry class.) Any chemist out there know if it's the sodium or the chlorine that causes rust on steel? If it's the chlorine, a disodium may not be bad on a gun. Does anyone have one they'd be willing to try it on? I'm kind of chicken when it comes to that type of thing.

Oro
July 1, 2009, 05:06 PM
I'm assuming Disodium has something to do with salt?

No, it means the silicate lubricant at some point probably has two sodium ions attached to stabilize the termination point of the lattice or polymer. "Salt" is a whole different thing. What we call "Salt" is table salt, Sodium Chloride. A "salt" is by definition any ionicly bonded compound that dissolves in water into electrolytes. There are thousands of known compounds that are "salts." Table salt/sodium chloride is just one of them.

The sodium-substrate bonds are probably ionic in this compound, but there likely aren't any oxygenated compounds around to make an oxidizing reaction, nor are they there in any appreciable concentration.

Since cost has been mentioned, a fairly cheap and very effective cleaning compound is just brake cleaner or carb cleaner from the auto parts store.

jim147
July 2, 2009, 01:07 AM
Since cost has been mentioned, a fairly cheap and very effective cleaning compound is just brake cleaner or carb cleaner from the auto parts store.

Yep, those are two things that serve double duty at my place.
Carb cleaner will knock the carbon right out of a semiauto.
And brake clean has a lot of uses. Cleans all the oil off of anything. So be sure to lube you weapon properly after using.

jim

Deus Machina
July 2, 2009, 08:00 AM
Any chemist out there know if it's the sodium or the chlorine that causes rust on steel?

Not a chemist, but it's neither. At least to my knowledge.

Chlorine alone does rust steel, and if you manage to break salt down, that won't be any good for steel, but I tend to think whatever reaction that would break salt to the elements would be bad for the metal, too. But the chlorine doesn't react when it's already got a stable pair with the sodium.

Salt attracts water and, directly and/or indirectly, speeds molecular reaction.

Fill a box with salt in Arizona, toss an AK in there, and seal it up airtight, and I'll bet it'll be right as rain when you take it out.

Keep the box with it's lid off in Florida, and... Well, the AK would probably still shoot. But it'll look like the photos from the ones those Somalian pirates had.

Ahem. As for the double-duty thing, I'm inclined to believe JohnBT on this.

I've found a bottle of sewing machine oil going through the drawers that my grandmother handed down when she passed, though, and it seems to actually work better than Hoppe's.

My all-purpose cleaner (until I find some stubborn carbon) is household cleaning ammonia with a surfactant in it. Kills corrosive residue dead (I personally believe the ammonia helps, but that's up for debate. The water base certainly does.) and loosens shooting crud right out of my Russian guns. I won't risk getting it near the pretty wood on my American ones.

Oro
July 2, 2009, 08:10 AM
Any chemist out there know if it's the sodium or the chlorine that causes rust on steel?

Sorry Wyman, I missed this bit before. It's the Sodium. It's the positive cation (Sodium, Na+) that potentiates/catalyzes the oxidation of the ferrous substrate (the steel). Chlorine is unimportant in the equation.

But again, see my other post above. It's not relevant in this compound. "Disodium metasilicate" is not a conventional salt.

I tend to think whatever reaction that would break salt to the elements would be bad for the metal, too.

Any ionic-bonded metal-base compound that dissolves in water is a "salt." So all the power you need to break salts is sitting in a glass of tap water. But you can poor a glass of tap water on a blued or stainless gun, let it run off, and then it dries and everything is fine. It takes more than just water to make all this happen.


Fill a box with salt in Arizona, toss an AK in there, and seal it up airtight, and I'll bet it'll be right as rain when you take it out.

Yep, you've removed any source of oxygen (air or water), so you've arrested rusting (aka - "oxidation"). This is true.

Keep the box with it's lid off in Florida, and... Well, the AK would probably still shoot. But it'll look like the photos from the ones those Somalian pirates had.

Yes, you've introduce oxygen from both the air (02) and the humidy (H20). Rust ("oxidize") away!

I've found a bottle of sewing machine oil going through the drawers that my grandmother handed down when she passed, though, and it seems to actually work better than Hoppe's.


Sewing machine oil = gun oil = assembly oil. All work the same. I just buy assembly oil or 3-in-1 oil as it's the same as "gun" oil but is 1/2 the price or less because it doesn't say "gun" on it. I do believe you are correct - sewing machine oil can work better than Hoppe's as some I have used is slightly thicker than Hoppe's - it penetrates slower (migrates), but it clings better (adheres).

My all-purpose cleaner (until I find some stubborn carbon) is household cleaning ammonia with a surfactant in it. Kills corrosive residue dead (I personally believe the ammonia helps, but that's up for debate.

Nope, no need for debate. You are correct. The corrosive positive cations (Ca2+, Na+, etc.), will be neutralized by the basic free ammonium ions (NH4-) in an ammonia solution. The surfactant is unimportant; that's just to make housewives happy.

I hope that helps with some basic inorganic chemistry of these things. Inorganic chemistry is not really my specialty; quiz me on biochemistry or organic chemistry. But this stuff is pretty basic to general inorganic chemistry that we all are taught to start out.

SCKimberFan
July 2, 2009, 08:14 AM
Based on the ad, Mpro7 is just under $20,000. Ain't no cleaner THAT good.

http://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-M-Pro7-Dual-Gun-Clr/dp/B001F0NZBA/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1246468845&sr=8-11

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