How to cancel a C&R 03FFL?


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stevemis
July 2, 2009, 11:22 AM
Given the widespread reports of ATF abuse and demands for on-site inspection of C&R collections and bound books, I'd like to rescind my 03FFL since I'm not doing anything with it, nor do I plan to.

I have one acquisition. No disposals. Bound book consists of a sheet of paper with one entry, held onto the side of my safe with a magnet.

Does anyone know what the process is?

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freakshow10mm
July 2, 2009, 11:24 AM
Sign it, send it in with a letter stating you are canceling the license. I don't think you need to turn your records in. Check the ATF FAQs for that part.

deadin
July 2, 2009, 11:56 AM
And the BATFE wins another round.:cuss:

41022collector
July 2, 2009, 12:09 PM
Yes....

1. Write cancel in Blue Ink accross the face. Date it

2. Send your origionals, make sure you keep a copy of everything.

3. A letter to BATF stating you are canceling, records enclosed and that the acquistions are staying with you. remember to have in your log books the accquisitions trans out to YOURSELF. The C&R is not a SALES license, it is a collecting license that by passes the 01 license laws due to firearm age or historical collectability..

here is the address to comply with end of biz....

Out of Business Records
National Tracing Center
1-800-788-7133, ext. 1590

Please direct all questions concerning firearms out-of-business records to this number.

Records can be mailed to:

ATF/Out of Business Records Center
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405

OR

Records can be delivered to your local ATF Office in order to comply with laws for surrendering records (which include all bound log books/acquisition & disposition books and computer printouts, ATF Form 4473's, Theft/Loss Reports, Multiple Sales Reports, and Brady forms).

stevemis
July 2, 2009, 12:10 PM
And the BATFE wins another round.


Exactly how does BATFE "win"? If I cancel it and don't renew it, they're out $30 every 3 years. I don't need the license, I don't use it... in fact, the one acquisition I had was a FTF-in-state and I didn't even have my C&R on me when I bought it. I can also get discounts on stuff I don't want or need at Brownells. Why have it and put up with invasions of what's left of my personal privacy?

daskro
July 2, 2009, 12:13 PM
Have there been widespread reports of C&R holders being audited? I've seen a few articles, but nothing beyond it.

41022collector
July 2, 2009, 12:36 PM
Most of the ones I have seen are large quantity of accquistitions and dispositions C&R holders selling at gun shows. There was a bust in ashland ohio of a guy who had 500 some C&R but were selling them as if he was a 01 dealer w/o a Ohio Tax license and those things. The main raids I have heard of are the ones for the C&R sub/MG/AOW/SbS/SbR guns and receivers. Over stocks of C&R ammo is also triggering some visits. But these are very blatent cases, true causes of concern of trying to circumvent the intent and technical reasons for the C&R.

waterhouse
July 2, 2009, 12:36 PM
Have there been widespread reports of C&R holders being audited?

They may have audited a few here and there, but I doubt there has been widespread audits. I have an 01 FFL, several guns going in and out very day, and they don't stop by here nearly as often as they are allowed to. I'm certainly not complaining, but from what I have been told they barely have the manpower to try and cover 01 dealers.

Most of the 03 guys that get into trouble are setting up at gun shows. When you have a ton of old mil surplus guns on your table month after month and you don't have a stack of 4473s that people are filling out the ATF tends to figure out what is going on, i.e. dealing without a license.

shameless
July 2, 2009, 12:45 PM
I understand your concern. Keep your FFL, and do things by the book, and you will be fine.

A spiral notebook will work as a bound book if one or two private aquisitions are all you have.

If you have any questions, call your local BATFE office and talk to them,
they have some nice folks and some bad ones, like any other official intity.

TimRB
July 2, 2009, 03:21 PM
A C&R license holder DOES NOT need to turn in his bound book when his license expires or is surrendered. See this FAQ linK:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g8

Oh heck, here it is:

"(G8) Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/disposition records to ATF if their collector’s license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity? [Back]

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms “business” is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collectors' licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4), 27 CFR 478.127]"

Edit: You are not even required to KEEP your bound book.

Tim

stevelyn
July 3, 2009, 12:49 AM
Exactly how does BATFE "win"? If I cancel it and don't renew it, they're out $30 every 3 years.

The waffen BATFEces couldn't care less about the $30 loss. They don't get it anyway. The federal treasury does. As an agency they are the blood enemies of gun owners even though there are a few pro-gun agents here and there. When you give up your FFL because of real or possible thuggish intimidation tactics, they win.

freakshow10mm
July 3, 2009, 12:58 AM
You watch too much cable TV.

benminer
July 3, 2009, 01:19 PM
If one received their C&R say in 2005 and then since then has acquired one modern firearm (and no antique firearms) through a private sale do C&R records need to be kept? Or are the C&R record keeping requirements only for antique firearms purchased privately?

41022collector
July 3, 2009, 01:30 PM
Concures with TimRB and I retract my advice to send in your 1 record.

I will say though, of all the BATFE horror stories I hear, I have had none, but I keep a super clean nose in all I do. a cpl agents of BATF and other feds even come and have coffee as I am smithing and we refuse to chat about Biz of firearms. We do all agree that Palin is hot and they would gladly work for her.

Regards,
Mike

dogtown tom
July 3, 2009, 02:22 PM
benminer: If one received their C&R say in 2005 and then since then has acquired one modern firearm (and no antique firearms) through a private sale do C&R records need to be kept? Or are the C&R record keeping requirements only for antique firearms purchased privately?

This question is a bit confusing.

If you got your C&R in 2005 it has expired. Licenses are only valid for three years. Hopefully you have not used an expired C&R to acquire any firearms.
There is no need to keep C&R records (bound book) unless you have a valid 03FFL (C&R license).

You do not log "non C&R" firearms in your C&R bound book.

ALL C&R eligible firearms that you acquire while you hold a C&R 03FFL must be logged in your bound book, regardless of whether it was a face to face, private party, or interstate transaction.

Using the term "modern" or "antique" when referencing firearms carries a different meaning when you hold a C&R. In common usage an antique is something older than you :D. Modern is anything your age or newer:D.

In firearms usage both those terms have legal definitions. "Antique" as defined by ATF refers to pre 1898 firearms.

Not all C&R eligible firearms are older than fifty years old, but all firearms that are fifty or older are C&R eligible.

deadin
July 3, 2009, 03:40 PM
In firearms usage both those terms have legal definitions. "Antique" as defined by ATF refers to pre 1898 firearms.

Not all C&R eligible firearms are older than fifty years old, but all firearms that are fifty or older are C&R eligible.

Just two minor quibble points....;)

Antique is pre-1899 (plus some wording about replicas thereof. Read the regulations for a complete definition.)

Correct on the C&R except there is wording about being in "unaltered" condition.
I read this to mean that that "sporterized" Mauser or Springfield doesn't qualify.
Some alteration is OK. The gray area is just how much. (i.e. It doesn't have to be matching parts, but all of them have to be there.:confused:)

Shadow 7D
July 3, 2009, 11:25 PM
I think that the ATF has a letter on that, depends if it is "bubba'd" or if it was historic modification.

I believe that it came about because some military rifles were demiled to civilian sporting rifles.

chuckusaret
July 3, 2009, 11:43 PM
I submitted my application for a C&R license in April, check cashed in April but no license as of yet. Does anyone have any idea as to what the waiting time is? Thanks for any info.

Jim K
July 4, 2009, 01:04 AM
I was told a while back that BATFE was checking wholesalers and distributors for mass sales to C&R licensees. I know that some C&R license holders will order up to a hundred of the same model of gun, keep the best ones for their collection and sell the rest. They usually insist that they are engaged in legitimate collecting, but to BATFE (and me) it sure sounds like being an unlicensed dealer.

If Congress eliminates the C&R license, which they are being urged to do, it will be partly because of people like that.

Jim

Owen Meany
July 4, 2009, 01:39 AM
If Congress eliminates the C&R license, which they are being urged to do...

Jim, where can I find more information about this? I was unaware of any efforts to do away with the 03 FFL.

This is really disturbing. Please elaborate (or point me to a source, if you would).

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 9, 2009, 05:51 PM
If Congress eliminates the C&R license, which they are being urged to do, it will be partly because of people like that.
Do you have a cite for this? I would certainly like to learn more.

zxcvbob
July 9, 2009, 07:25 PM
I submitted my application for a C&R license in April, check cashed in April but no license as of yet. Does anyone have any idea as to what the waiting time is? Thanks for any info. I sent mine in in April, and just received it a few days ago. Haven't received the "welcome packet" yet, just the license. (I've already registered at Midway and Graf's and placed "dealer" discount orders with each)

stevemis
July 9, 2009, 09:11 PM
Field office called and requested I mail in/drop off my bound book. Discussion here:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5743744

If you enjoyed reading about "How to cancel a C&R 03FFL?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!