Rasmussen poll confirms Americans fear govt that fears guns


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Dave Workman
July 2, 2009, 02:42 PM
Rasmussen poll confirms Americans fear government that fears guns
UPDATE on recreational shooting closure in Snoqualmie-North Bend ranger district:
Seattle Gun Rights Examiner also promises to drive the national forest area now closed to recreational shooting east of North Bend, WA in effort to find safe shooting spots.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m7d2-Rasmussen-poll-confirms-People-fear-government-that-fears-guns

If that doesn't work, try this:
http://tinyurl.com/no9kek

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NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 03:42 PM
The people of Iran are living and reaping it right now...

Animal Mother
July 2, 2009, 04:25 PM
Does anyone have an actual link to the Rasmussen poll data? I'd be interested to see exactly how the question was worded, as well as any further demographic breakdowns.

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 05:31 PM
Mr. Workman, the pole does not state that most Americans fear a government that wants tighter gun control, but rather that most Americans feel that it is a fear of tighter gun controls that are driving up sales. While it may be true that most Americans do fear a government that is for tighter gun control, that is not the poll question that was asked. Because of this, I believe the headline of your article to be somewhat dishonest.

"Gottlieb’s forward-thinking rejection of Sotomayor said the nomination affirmed gun owner concerns about the potential of an Obama-Pelosi gun control scheme...."

I, and others, have asked repeatedly for demonstrated evidence that Judge Sotomayore is indeed a major opponent of personal firearm ownership, yet this proof has yet to be provided. The only ruling that is ever brought up is one that was supported by another conservative panel of judges in Illinois, and was also backed up by the text of the SCOTUS ruling in the Heller case. This hardly qualifies somebody as being strongly anti-gun.

Things like this do nothing but harm to our cause, as they harm our overall credibility with those that are on the fence when it comes to the issue of firearms control. It also causes "far left" supporters of gun rights to wish to distance themselves from the man body of the RKBA movement.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 05:46 PM
I, and others, have asked repeatedly for demonstrated evidence that Judge Sotomayore is indeed a major opponent of personal firearm ownership, yet this proof has yet to be provided. The only ruling that is ever brought up is one that was supported by another conservative panel of judges in Illinois, and was also backed up by the text of the SCOTUS ruling in the Heller case. This hardly qualifies somebody as being strongly anti-gun.

Do you really think for a minute she is anything but anti? I mean my God, this is Obama's pick and she personifies his own politics. :scrutiny:

Things like this do nothing but harm to our cause, as they harm our overall credibility with those that are on the fence when it comes to the issue of firearms control. It also causes "far left" supporters of gun rights to wish to distance themselves from the man body of the RKBA movement.

Who cares about the dozen or so far-lefties that support the second amendment? :p

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 05:53 PM
First of all, it doesn't matter if I really think for a minute she is anything. Without proof, it's a baseless opinion, and to try and frame it as anything else but that is intellectually dishonest.

Secondly, I won't even bother commenting on the "dozen or so far-lefties that support the second amendment" remark. Anybody that agrees with you won't care, and anybody with an open mind will see through it anyway.

EDIT: Take a look see here. I found this after a 2 second google search.

http://www.progunprogressive.com/

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 06:26 PM
First of all, it doesn't matter if I really think for a minute she is anything. Without proof, it's a baseless opinion, and to try and frame it as anything else but that is intellectually dishonest.

I asked if you really believed she wasn't anti. If you don't want to answer, that's fine. :p

Secondly, I won't even bother commenting on the "dozen or so far-lefties that support the second amendment" remark. Anybody that agrees with you won't care, and anybody with an open mind will see through it anyway.

Second amendment support from the far left... :scrutiny:

I'm sure it exists in one form or another but it is also irrelevant.

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 06:38 PM
"I asked if you really believed she wasn't anti. If you don't want to answer, that's fine."

What you don't seem to get is that I try not to pass judgment on people or issues until I have enough facts in front of me to make at least a reasonable assessment.

"I'm sure it exists in one form or another but it is also irrelevant."

First of all, alienating any potential ally in the fight for our RKBA is fool’s errand. Secondly, it's not just the "far-left" but many moderate leftists as well that you may be alienating, and their numbers are probably more significant than you may like to believe.

EDIT: Let's use some of the poll numbers we have available to us to take a look at the "irrelevant" group referenced above. President Obama currently has an approval rating of around 60% (give or take some depending on which poll you look at) and won the election with around 55% of the popular vote if I recall correctly. Currently, only 43% of Americans (according to the Rasmussen poll) feel that the nation needs more gun control laws, with 47% disagreeing, and the remaining 10% being natural on the subject I would imagine (the pole data does not specify). Notice the significant gap between the Presidents election and approval rating numbers and the numbers for those who support further gun control. If we then were to assume that ALL supporters of more gun control were leftist, Obama supporters (which is NOT the case, but just to make things simple we're going to go with that) then that would mean that over 10% of his supporters are also against further gun laws, or are at least natural and possible open to our side (again, because of previous assumptions, I believe this number is conservative and is likely much higher than that). This represents a not-insignificant number of people. People who we should be working together with, not pushing away because we feel their support is "irrelevant."

Now, this is far from a scientific study, and is at best a patchwork, but I wanted to show some demonstration of the size of the potential support group that Mike feels we don't need on our side. And given that I'm at work and just tossed this together, I don't think it's TOO bad. But I do welcome anybody who has the time to find more solid numbers on this issue.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:05 PM
What you don't seem to get is that I try not to pass judgment on people or issues until I have enough facts in front of me to make at least a reasonable assessment.

And why is that? What is so wrong about giving your opinion as to whether Obama's pick for SCOTUS is anti or not?

First of all, alienating any potential ally in the fight for our RKBA is foolís errand. Secondly, it's not just the "far-left" but many moderate leftists as well that you may be alienating, and their numbers are probably more significant than you may like to believe.

These are your words, not mine.

Things like this do nothing but harm to our cause, as they harm our overall credibility with those that are on the fence when it comes to the issue of firearms control. It also causes "far left" supporters of gun rights to wish to distance themselves from the man body of the RKBA movement.

You are the one who first mentioned "far left." And again I would say that far-left support of the second amendment is irrelevant.

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 07:18 PM
I mentioned "far-left" in quotes for a reason in my original post (the implication being that anybody "left" is "far-left" in the eyes of many gun owners), and your reply does nothing to refute the overall point that was being made in my previous post, if that were your intent.

If you want to continue to look at support for the 2nd Amendment from the "far-left" as irrelevant, then please, go ahead and do so.

"And why is that? What is so wrong about giving your opinion as to whether Obama's pick for SCOTUS is anti or not?"

Let me spell it out a little more clearly. I HAVE RESERVED JUDGEMNT (IN OTHER WORDS, HAVE NOT YET FORMED AN OPPIONION) ON THE JUDGE WHEN IT COMES TO THE 2ND AMENDMENT UNTIL I HAVE MORE INFORMATION.

EDIT: I found this article from a "far-left" pro - 2nd Amendment site. Ahh, the sweet irony!

http://www.davekopel.com/Corner/2009-April-June.htm#Sotomayor_vs._the_Second_Amendment,_Part_II

While it's not entirely a "slam dunk" it does look at the ruling in question in a light I have not looked at it before, and does seriously call into question Judge Sotomayor's views on the RKBA. So I guess that's the opinion you've been looking for, Mike? :P

benEzra
July 2, 2009, 07:32 PM
I, and others, have asked repeatedly for demonstrated evidence that Judge Sotomayore is indeed a major opponent of personal firearm ownership, yet this proof has yet to be provided. The only ruling that is ever brought up is one that was supported by another conservative panel of judges in Illinois, and was also backed up by the text of the SCOTUS ruling in the Heller case. This hardly qualifies somebody as being strongly anti-gun.
It is absolutely, positively, impossible for Sotomayor to be more anti-gun than the man she is replacing (Souter). She may end up being less so. She has, at least, said that she respects D.C. v. Heller as settled law and will not try to overturn it, and she may be significantly better on the Fourth Amendment.

Is she the ideal from a 2ndA perspective? No, of course not. Is she the end of the world and a sign of the apocalypse on the 2ndA? No, she's not that either.

Second amendment support from the far left...

I'm sure it exists in one form or another but it is also irrelevant.
On the contrary, 2ndA support from the center and left are a major reason why Obama has been vigorously reining in the center-left gun-ban zealots. And yes, most Dem support for new gun bans came from Third Way centrists, not the far left. There are exceptions, but the movers and shakers in the 90's on gun bans were centrist DLC types who saw gun bans as a way to look "tough on crime" to law-and-order types.

Registered Republicans are, what, 21% of the U.S. population? And only half of Republicans own guns. You cannot build a solid pro-gun consensus if you kick all of the nonconservative pro-gunners (like me, FWIW) out of the tent.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:41 PM
I've yet to meet anyone who is on the "far-left" and supports the second amendment.

Centrists and those that lean OK but far-lefties are a different breed.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 07:47 PM
While it's not entirely a "slam dunk" it does look at the ruling in question in a light I have not looked at it before, and does seriously call into question Judge Sotomayor's views on the RKBA. So I guess that's the opinion you've been looking for, Mike? :P


I think I heard this being discussed on the radio. The pro-sotomayor voice explained that each time sotomayor reached a decision, she was using precedent as a guide and was clearly a jurist that respected precedent. It sounded like spin then and still sounds like spin today.

I don't trust her as far as I could throw her. She's Obama's pick and that's enough for me. I also see how she reasoned the Firemen's case that was just overturned by SCOTUS and that alone is disturbing enough.

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 07:47 PM
Mike, myself and my family would be considered "far-left" by most on this board (and by the Political Compass test [far lower left for those of you who know of it]), and we are all strong RKBA advocates.

EDIT: "Obama picked her" is not good enough reasoning for me, as I support Obama in more things than I don't (the 2nd Amendment being an area where we obviously don't see eye to eye). However, it's the Judges reasoning in the case you mentioned that also disturbed me (that the 2nd Amendment is not a fundamental right). With that being said, though, that was a panel decision, thus it is possible that she herself did not even write that sentence, even though she signed off on it. This is what keeps it from being a "slam dunk" in my book, though it does not keep it from being a very dubious mark against her.

NC-Mike
July 2, 2009, 08:00 PM
EDIT: "Obama picked her" is not good enough reasoning for me, as I support Obama in more things than I don't (the 2nd Amendment being an area where we obviously don't see eye to eye). However, it's the Judges reasoning in the case you mentioned that also disturbed me (that the 2nd Amendment is not a fundamental right). With that being said, though, that was a panel decision, thus it is possible that she herself did not even write that sentence, even though she signed off on it. This is what keeps it from being a "slam dunk" in my book, though it does not keep it from being a very dubious mark against her.

The justification for sotomayor was it was pre-heller.

She made another decision after heller that was different, did she not?

As a leftist, I'm surprised to hear you agree with Obama on everything other than the SA. Obama strikes me a corporatist and firmly in the grasp of the those that drive the globalist agenda. No real change from GWB.

Most of the leftist I spoke to on the internets were also Utopianists and that seemed to drive their opposition to the SA.

camacho
July 2, 2009, 08:03 PM
The poll simply says that 57% believe that fear of gun control is driving sales up, it does not say that 57% fear that direction of the government. If you ask (I have) folks on the liberal side, they will tell you that since they are just stating the obvious fact. That does not mean they they approve of the people who are buying the guns, or scared of Obama's intentions on gun rights. The question asked was the following:


Are gun sales in the United States up because of the fear of increased crime or fear of increased government restriction on gun ownership?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/econ_survey_toplines/june_2009/toplines_gun_sales_june_24_25_2009

Now, it's possible that those folks also fear the government but that is not evident from this particular survey.

What is more important about this survey is that most in America (left, right, independent) see Obama as pro-gun control. In other words his campaign promises about "I won't take your guns" fell on deaf years. Also, it is notable that only 20% percent believe the Mexico hoax Holder and Hillary are trying to sell us.

eqfan592
July 2, 2009, 08:20 PM
As a leftist, I'm surprised to hear you agree with Obama on everything other than the SA. Obama strikes me a corporatist and firmly in the grasp of the those that drive the globalist agenda. No real change from GWB.

Most of the leftist I spoke to on the internets were also Utopianists and that seemed to drive their opposition to the SA.

Please note that I never stated I agree with Obama on everything other than the SA. If you look back at the text you quoted from my post, I stated that I agree with him on more things than I disagree with. And trust me when I say that he is FAR from my ideal candidate.

I'm not sure what an Utopianist is exactly (and I'm not trying to be snarky and imply that it's not a real thing, I've just honestly never heard the term before) but I'm guessing it has something to do with a utopian society of sorts. I guess each personís idea of utopia is different. In mine, we wouldn't even have to question the 2A because everybody would get it. :P Though that's not to say that it would be the ONLY thing in my utopian world :P

NC-Mike
July 3, 2009, 03:32 AM
Please note that I never stated I agree with Obama on everything other than the SA. If you look back at the text you quoted from my post, I stated that I agree with him on more things than I disagree with. And trust me when I say that he is FAR from my ideal candidate.

I'm not sure what an Utopianist is exactly (and I'm not trying to be snarky and imply that it's not a real thing, I've just honestly never heard the term before) but I'm guessing it has something to do with a utopian society of sorts. I guess each personís idea of utopia is different. In mine, we wouldn't even have to question the 2A because everybody would get it. :P Though that's not to say that it would be the ONLY thing in my utopian world :P


Sorry bout that, I misread your comments.

Utopianists as I see them, think the government can make the world the they they wish it to be and refuse to acknowledge the soft white underbelly of human nature.

My guy in the election was Ron Paul.

I would have voted for Palin but only if she was on the top of the ticket. She didn't strike me as being beholden to anyone, including bilderberg types. I know she isn't nearly as educated as obama is but I think she is an American first and I would trust her judgment.

Education, loyalty and judgment are separate things.

The way I look at things, the last President of the United States that was in office was Jimmy Carter. We've had nothing but corporate shills since.

chuckusaret
July 3, 2009, 11:40 AM
I don't believe a word that is spoken by the president of the United States or his staff, so why should I believe his pick of Sotomayor for the supreme court would be anymore honest than him.

Until the republican party gets someone with gonads, the democrats will continue to eliminate our constitutional rights and tax us into another depression.

NC-Mike
July 3, 2009, 11:49 AM
I don't believe a word that is spoken by the president of the United States or his staff, so why should I believe his pick of Sotomayor for the supreme court would be anymore honest than him.

Irrefutable logic. It doesn't matter whether its rotten from the top down or the bottom up, its still rotten.

Until the republican party gets someone with gonads, the democrats will continue to eliminate our constitutional rights and tax us into another depression.

http://julieluongo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/sarah-palin.jpg

There is a gal from Wasilla that may qualify... :)

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 06:36 PM
Sorry mike, you may have to look elsewhere.

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/breaking-sarah-palin-step-down-govern

NC-Mike
July 3, 2009, 06:39 PM
Sorry mike, you may have to look elsewhere.

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murp...ep-down-govern

The speculation is she's setting up to run for 2012. Sarah has a lot of support. Mad support.

JImbothefiveth
July 3, 2009, 06:40 PM
EDIT: Take a look see here. I found this after a 2 second google search According to an organization you may have heard of, gallup, 66% of democrats (liberals) want more gun control, compared to 31% of republicans (conservatives) and 47% of independants. (moderates).

It is rather safe to guess that any given liberal will most likely be anti-gun.

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 07:01 PM
How do you go from "60% of democrats (who do NOT represent even close to all liberals in the nation) to "any given liberal will most likely be anti-gun"?

That 30-40% that do not want more gun control is a huge number of people, even larger than I had estimated before. Are you arguing that these people should be ignored or set aside?

Mike,

If she's gearing up for 2012, I have to say that this is an unusual way of doing it, and has left many republican strategist really scratching their heads. But we'll just have to see how it plays out, cuz right now its anybody’s guess.

JImbothefiveth
July 3, 2009, 07:05 PM
The number is actually more than 60%. No I'm not arguing the 34% who doesn't should be ignored. However, it means that for every 3 democrats, 2 will be anti-gun, so any given liberal is likely to be anti-gun. I think this should be kept in mind especially whenever anyone starts saying how pro-gun liberals are as an excuse to vote for anti-gunners, )though I don't think you were saying that).

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 07:18 PM
Here's the thing though Jim, you're assuming that Democrats and Liberals are one in the same. The democratic party is primarily center to center right, with only a small percentage of democrats going center left (or I should say center lower left for those of us who have seen the political compass). They do not represent all liberals.

So with that in mind, 34% of dems are against more controls, and 53% of independents are against more controls. In that group, there is also a significant percentage of liberals (at least 50%, if not more), though the make up of pro/anti's may not be as evenly distributed.

So I would say that it's closer to 2 out of 5 liberals are pro gun, or are at least against further gun control.

Interestingly enough, on several liberal and democrat forums I post on, it seems the number of anti's is waning. This could simply be that they aren't bothering to fight with the rest of us anymore when it comes to the various party platforms and issues, but who knows. Maybe some headway is being made now.

And you our correct in that I'm not trying to use this as a reason to vote for anti-gunners. I'm simply saying that, even though there ARE more conservative gun supporters than liberal gun supporters, we should avoid framing this as a conservative vs liberal issue, because when it comes right down to it, it's a anti-civil liberties vs pro-civil liberties issue, and I think we'll have an easier time building up an even stronger support base if we frame it that way.

cyclopsshooter
July 3, 2009, 07:30 PM
im left wing and i support the 2A- obama aint comin after the guns- right wingers read too much nutty news

and palin is as dumb as a box of rocks ppptthhhbbbttt...

JImbothefiveth
July 3, 2009, 07:31 PM
The democratic party is primarily center to center right, with only a small percentage of democrats going center left (or I should say center lower left for those of us who have seen the political compass).

You have an odd definition of center-right. I guess that makes independents far-right and republicans –insanely-right. Face it, when polled, democrats are the group that consistently has the most liberal views on all issues. I would say that makes them "liberals"

im left wing and i support the 2A- obama aint comin after the guns- right wingers read too much nutty news
Only if Obama campaign promises from the official Obama website count. Or who the Brady Campaign endorses.

and palin is as dumb as a box of rocks ppptthhhbbbttt...
Well, I don't know how to argue with this respectful, well-thought-out, scientifically verifiable argument, though I would like to see you run the biggest state in the nation and get the same approval ratings. I just know that partisan politics is off-topic.
(I think arguing liberal vs. conservative is okay though)

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 07:49 PM
"You have an odd definition of center-right."

Actually, the US's common definition of "liberal" and "conservative" is what is unusually skewed when looked at on the world scale.

Take a look at this.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

And yes, that does make republicans far right, though not independents (because independents as a group are not all conservatives, not by any stretch of the imagination).

Democrats do not represent "the most liberal views" around, far from it. I, personally, am a former green party member (and you'll see their candidate down in the lower left). I personally have more in common with libertarians than I do many democrats and almost all republicans, though I still disagree with them on other issues (they would be located in the lower right portion of that map.

EDIT: And "biggest state in the nation" is relative, as that is only speaking of land area, not population, which is the real key. They have a population of around the same size as the City of Milwaukee, but with a huge amount of natural resources. Honestly, Alaska is probably the easiest state in the union to manage, at least from a budget standpoint.

Though I do not wish to get into any sort of debate about her inelegance. I simply wanted to point the above out.

cyclopsshooter
July 3, 2009, 07:51 PM
biggest state in the nation ha! how hard is it to manage snow?

JImbothefiveth
July 3, 2009, 07:53 PM
Democrats do not represent "the most liberal views" around, far from it Of the 3 major groups, republicans, independants, and democrats, neither republicans or independants hold the msot liberal views. Therefore, it is the democrats who are the most liberal of these groups.

Actually, the US's common definition of "liberal" and "conservative" is what is unusually skewed when looked at on the world scale.
The rest of the world is in general not gun friendly, and more socialistic than America. I don't care how center-right someone is when compared to North Korea. $30,000 a year would make you rich compared to some nations. Is someone in the U.S. who earns $30,000 a year rich? Since I'm talking U.S. politics, I'll stand by my statement that democrats as a group are liberal.
biggest state in the nation ha! how hard is it to manage snow?
I don't know, I've never been governer. Tell you what, you run the biggest state in the nation and tell me how easy it is.

though not independents (because independents as a group are not all conservatives, not by any stretch of the imagination). Compared to democrats as a group, independants as a group are more conservative. If democrats are center-right, that makes independants far-right.

cyclopsshooter
July 3, 2009, 07:59 PM
I don't know, I've never been governer

Thank god! I have seen your posts- Id rather vote for Palin...

JImbothefiveth
July 3, 2009, 08:01 PM
If you're going to use off-topic personal attacks, would you at least make them well-defined off-topic personal attacks? Which of my posts is it, the one about the NRA not being useless, the one about not shooting a fleeing person in the back for a VCR, or the caliber wars?

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 08:03 PM
Jim, "Independents" are not a single group of primarily Conservative leaning people. The independent classification is an umbrella of people who fall into the extremes on both ends. Of the 3 groups, the Independents have the most "liberal" people, though maybe not the same number of people. If you want to stick purely to an American political scale, then simply shift the center point on the scale up and too the right.

And you're speaking to an Independent right now, and I can tell you that I'm further to the lower left than Gandhi on that scale. But I'm also an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment.

Interestingly enough. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats come even close to supporting civil liberties (and the 2a IS a civil liberty issue) on the same level when compared to people on the lower end of the scale.

cyclopsshooter
July 3, 2009, 08:06 PM
hahahah PALIN JUST RESIGNED

eqfan592
July 3, 2009, 08:09 PM
cyclo, there's really no need to be so rude and hostile simply because somebody doesn't agree with you. Just chill out man :)

Larry Ashcraft
July 3, 2009, 08:10 PM
Now you know why we don't allow political threads.

Closed. PMs inbound.

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