Had to kill a dog yesterday with my 642 ....


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PcolaDawg
July 2, 2009, 02:10 PM
Not happy about it, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

We've had a pack of dogs (not pets - no collars, tags or anything) running around our neighborhood for a while and in the last couple of days they decided they liked my back yard (about 4 acres with a barn, a couple of ponds, and right next to a swamp). I think they're responsible for killing two of my geese, but I never did catch 'em in the act. The geese were killed very late at night or very early in the morning.

Anyway, my wife was out walking our greyhound yesterday, and they came out of the swamp and barked at her, then one of them advanced growling. When my wife sped back to the house the dogs set up shop in our barn.

So I got home around 7:30 PM and decided to check it out. I was carrying my S&W 642 at the time, and if I had taken the time to go to the house first I would've gotten a more appropriate weapon. Anyway, I walked back to the barn and noticed three of the dogs sleeping in the grass behind the barn. I whistled them up and gave them a chance to leave quietly. Unfortunately, one of them advanced at me barking. So I decided that's the dog that would die.

It was actually a much longer shot than I would've preferred for a snub-nosed .38, but the gun has a Crimson Trace laser grip and it was just getting dark enough to use it. Plus I had it loaded with +P hollow points.

One shot and it was over, and the other dogs have not been seen or heard from since. Hopefully, I won't have to do that again, but it was nice to know that the little 642 can definitely get the job done if needed.

And, yeah, I've called animal control before, but they always tell me I need to take care of the problem on my own, so I don't bother calling them anymore.

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DAdams
July 2, 2009, 02:26 PM
One kill.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/dadams111/PA230002.jpg


I got to the point I had to carry on dog walks, mine on a leash and pack dogs living in the woods. I would probably carry bear spray now, effective but not deadly. Now on my own property....I would do what you did.

Diplomacy is the art of saying, 'nice doggie,' while you're looking for a rock.

-Will Rogers

JoeMal
July 2, 2009, 02:31 PM
That's a crazy story man....sounds like they were more wild though than tame...I don't blame you for doing what you did, especially when it involves the lady

tydephan
July 2, 2009, 02:33 PM
I live out in the country and live right by the river. Folks like to drop off their dogs down at the river, so I'm always having to call Animal Control on strays.

About 4 months ago, we had a pack of 4 wander up in the middle of the night, break through the screen of our front porch and attack our cat. I'm not sure how she did it, but she evaded all 4 of them and made it to a safe spot. My cousin's cat, about a half mile up the road, wasn't so fortunate.

As a parent with small kids, I actually went hunting for these dogs. When dogs become predators like that, they need to go. Fortunately my cattle-farming Uncle found them before I did and had animal control pick them up.

And I'm a card-carrying dog lover. And I'd never harm a tame animal.

I'd say you did good with what you had. I know you hate it and it's a sucky thing to have to do, but you can't have that threat around your place.

And as far as animal control goes, call your county commisioner (assuming you're outside city limits) and ask him how much you can deduct from your taxes since the department is unwilling to help.

Quoheleth
July 2, 2009, 02:49 PM
There are dogs, and there are DOGS.

When in high school, we had a pack of feral dogs drag down 4 200+ pound calves and kill 3; the 4th had to be put down because of the damage done to it. That was over $1000 worth of beef that was destroyed by those mongrels.

The next three weeks, my best friend & I were dog hunters after getting the green light from the county sherriff's deputy who attended our church: exercise extreme dispatch. One Saturday, I managed to pop one - the longest shot I've ever taken at an animal, over 200 long steps. The .270 130grain was well up to the task. My friend got another one the next week at about half that distance. They seem to have gotten the message at that point and we didn't see the dogs again.

After that morning, though, I always carried a gun to the barn - sometimes a .22 rifle, but more often a .22 single-action. Had rat-shot in the first chamber (anti-snake/rat) and Stingers in the next 4.

I say "good shoot." An unfriendly dog on your property is neither welcome or needed.

Q

saturno_v
July 2, 2009, 02:50 PM
I may have a similar problem (I hope it will never come to that)

There are 2 BIG dogs around where I live that are a bit out of control....one where the owners are gone for days (and when they are around they do not care about it anyway) and another where I told the owner several times, he acknowledged the problem and he's building a fence very slowly (and stopped recently)


They almost attacked my dog twice and almost snapped at one of my neighbours when she was pickign up the mail..

I usually do not pack when I walk my dog aroudn here. it is a very safe and quiet place, but recently I'm bringing my Kel-Tec P-11 9 mm in my pocket with 115 gr. HP Remington on my walk just in case...

Animal Control is basically useless...

Tydephan


Do you mind me to ask you what kind of effectiveness and damage your 38 did?? How big, give or take , was the dog in pounds??

Birdmang
July 2, 2009, 02:53 PM
What kind of dogs are they?

Just crazy mutts or something?

earlthegoat2
July 2, 2009, 02:57 PM
I wouldnt feel too bad about it.

If you killed the last passenger pigeon though....

Vern Humphrey
July 2, 2009, 03:02 PM
Any dog can turn feral when abandoned. While such dogs should be shot (they damage wildlife and can be dangerous to humans), it would be better if we could shoot the people who dropped them off in the country.

Then, of course, there's always the guy who says, "My dogs never leave my property." Riiiight. And the check's in the mail.

oneounceload
July 2, 2009, 03:07 PM
I would still keep calling animal control - it establishes your due diligence should a dog's owner, or a LEo want to give you some grief about ding it. If you can show a repeated pattern where AC did nothing, despite repeated calls, it could easily work in your favor

Reid73
July 2, 2009, 03:29 PM
S&W 642 ... the 21st century's Velo-Dog?

atlanticfire
July 2, 2009, 03:40 PM
I live in a small community in the woods. There are several hundred acres of nature conservatory across the street and at night I have seen small packs of dog emerge just enough to see then in my lamp post light out in my yard. Some nights its just pairs of eyes from across the street in the woods. My humane society told me the same thing, basically do it yourself. When I have to let my dogs out at night to do their business Iím also armed. Never had to shoot one, but would in a heartbeat.

TCOV
July 2, 2009, 03:45 PM
Usually best to shoot and shut up. Laws are a little fuzzy about shooting dogs in some areas. Didn't see me do it, I didn't do it.

Vern Humphrey
July 2, 2009, 04:00 PM
Remember the "Three Ss," "Shoot, shovel and shut up."

G. Freeman
July 2, 2009, 04:11 PM
Usually best to shoot and shut up. Laws are a little fuzzy about shooting dogs in some areas.

If you did that in California, you'd probably end up in jail. Gun forum members would be sympathetic to what you did, me included. But if I were you I'd have this thread deleted just to protect yourself.

HoosierQ
July 2, 2009, 04:20 PM
When I was a kid we had wild dogs after the calves. My father, not much of a marksman by any standard, had his Universal M-1 Carbine and I was there as "backup" with my Ithaca saddle gun.

He rested the thing atop a fence post and took 3 shots and a moving dog. Missed the first two but the third hit and killed the wild dog on that shot. I was 13 and ready to deliver the coup de gras but it was dead as a doornail when we got over to it. Best shot my dad ever made on anything...again a marksman he was not. About 60-75 yards maybe.

Wild dogs are, if I am not mistaken, the most dangerous mammal in North America in terms of injuries to humans, pets, indiginous wild species, and livestock. There are just so many of them and unlike wild predators, humans are fostering their reproduction by not spaying and nuetering, and abandoning. Once a puppy isn't cute anymore, it has had an un-natural headstart in life (unlike say a wolf cub) and if abandoned, will be big and strong or whatever.

I am on record on this forum for "leave the snakes alone", "don't kill a skunk or a possum just because", etc etc. I have never taken that position on feral dogs. They are a man made problem and it is up to man to fix it.

You did the right thing man. And let's face it, feral dogs do not have a good life at all. Scrounging, skulking around, often dying from eating poisoned food out of mixed garbage. At least this one died quick. Wolves and coyotes are out there living as God intended them...most of the time.

PS My bestest buddy in the whole world is good old Chet the Golder Retriever but he's been fixed and ain't nobody gonna abandon him. He is a danger only to one's breakfast toast...although he did savagely attack a whole pan of cinnamon buns once.

Vern Humphrey
July 2, 2009, 04:24 PM
If you did that in California, you'd probably end up in jail. Gun forum members would be sympathetic to what you did, me included. But if I were you I'd have this thread deleted just to protect yourself.
That's the third of the "Three Ss" -- shut up. Do it and don't say a word to anyone.

Here in Arkansas, the law says I can destroy any animal that is "depredating or about to depridate" on my property. But it still pays to just to do it and keep quiet about it.

george29
July 2, 2009, 04:45 PM
Any dog can turn feral when abandoned. While such dogs should be shot (they damage wildlife and can be dangerous to humans), it would be better if we could shoot the people who dropped them off in the country A-f*ing-men!

ArmedBear
July 2, 2009, 05:09 PM
Any dog can turn feral when abandoned. While such dogs should be shot (they damage wildlife and can be dangerous to humans), it would be better if we could shoot the people who dropped them off in the country.


True.

I think that people need to understand what "feral" means, too. At this point, you're dealing with a wild predator, not a pet.

Some abandoned or lost dogs act like lost pets. It's pretty obvious.

When they've really gone feral, they're not acting like pets. They're almost a different animal.

That said, chasing a cat doesn't exactly indicate that a dog has gone feral.:)

Vern Humphrey
July 2, 2009, 05:16 PM
I think that people need to understand what "feral" means, too. At this point, you're dealing with a wild predator, not a pet.
Feral, n. That which was once tame and useful but which has since become wild and dangerous. Example: The Feral Government.

cleetus03
July 2, 2009, 08:30 PM
killing dog threads..........never end well:(

TIMC
July 2, 2009, 08:36 PM
A feral dog is no better than a coyote, just another pesky varmint to me an treated the same (shot on sight).

skoro
July 2, 2009, 08:49 PM
The only time I've ever had to fire a weapon in self defense was against a pack of feral dogs in a remote rural area. I would have been in serious trouble that day if were unarmed. :uhoh:

TCOV
July 2, 2009, 09:22 PM
If you don't brag it no one will know. I know a local guy shot two dogs chasing deer on his property which was legal. Couldn't keep his mouth shut and had to spend several thousand dollars defending his action in court when dog owner sued him. Just shut up and no one can prove anything.

DAdams
July 2, 2009, 09:28 PM
That is Classic. :D

Feral, n. That which was once tame and useful but which has since become wild and dangerous. Example: The Feral Government. :eek:

4v50 Gary
July 2, 2009, 09:31 PM
Every now and then critters have to be reminded that we're the top of the foodchain (with exception of the parasites that live on or within us :uhoh:). The danger about feral dogs is that unlike other critters, they don't have that natural fear of man. If they were once domesticated, they won't have fear of fire either. What you did was right, just, and humane (rehabilitation through reincarnation).

MCgunner
July 2, 2009, 09:33 PM
Be careful. Texas laws are so screwed up I'd easier get away with killing a man.:rolleyes: I shot a dog that had been running with a wild pack that had killed my cats and for a couple of years were hounding the neighborhood. He actually came in my yard and jumped on two adult cats I had at the time. I ran off the porch and started kickin' the snot out of him, ran off a ways and turned on me and I shot him. I got cuffed and stuffed and charged with misdemeanor animal cruelty, got my gun taken as evidence, got my CCW license yanked. The judge dismissed the charges at the arraignment, but it cost me 2800 in legal fees. Got my gun and CCW back after 9 months. Live and learn. Next time, I'll pull my leatherman on him, stab him to death, and toss him down the storm drain. SSS dude, shoot, shovel, and shut up.

gmh1013
July 2, 2009, 09:45 PM
I had to shoot a wild dog back in northern AZ at friends camp house....may have been rapid.
Long shot with a .22 magnum Marlin and a 6x scope ....200+ yards.
head shot and he dropped ....dog killed our friend cocker spaniel.
I not a dog lover but hated to shoot it though

StrikeFire83
July 3, 2009, 12:00 AM
When I was a toddler in the Texas Hill Country (been a city boy since age 6) we had about 6 acres with a house, a barn, a few horses, and a stock tank. The whole property was fenced in with barbed wire. At about age 2 my parents would just let me run around and play as long as I stayed in sight.

A pack of feral dogs showed up on the property for a few weeks, and my dad kept me inside. They killed one of our barn cats, but nothing ended up happening. When they attacked and mauled 5 year old girl a couple properties over, my dad and our next door neighbor spent a weekend shooting the whole pack. They shot about 6 or 7 of the dogs, and my dad cut the throat out of one of the bigger ones and nailed it to a fence post in case any of them were left and decided to show up. We never heard from them again.

Now this was Texas in the mid 80s, so things might be different elsewhere and nowadays, but that's how it worked when I was a baby.

Yo Mama
July 3, 2009, 12:11 AM
Am I the only one concerned you looked for these dogs? If it was a person everyone would be saying you should have called the police. I know animal control told you to do what you needed to do, but unless there is more to the story I fear you were in the wrong. If the dog went after your wife at the time she wasn't searching for them maybe fine. You appear to have hunted them.

Sorry if I'm the sole deflector. I'm sorry it happened, and sure hoping there is more you're not telling.

barnetmill
July 3, 2009, 12:22 AM
You did the right thing man. And let's face it, feral dogs do not have a good life at all. Scrounging, skulking around, often dying from eating poisoned food out of mixed garbage. At least this one died quick. Wolves and coyotes are out there living as God intended them...most of the time. Hoosier


you raised an interesting point relative to coyotes are now found far from their ancestral homes. In NW FL should I leave them alone natural predators or shot them on sight as pests. I am not really sure. If I had stock or small pets nearby I certainly would.

wankerjake
July 3, 2009, 12:31 AM
And, yeah, I've called animal control before, but they always tell me I need to take care of the problem on my own, so I don't bother calling them anymore.
Screw animal control, if I ever have a dog problem I'm calling you! Seriously though I don't think you did anything wrong, I'd have shot him too. No reason to tolerate that behavior from a stray dog in my opinion.

Yo Mama
July 3, 2009, 12:32 AM
Shoot on sight!!! What the hell!!!

Guys, seriously, unless your life is compromised don't fricking shoot an animal. I've been bit multiple times, and never would be justified to shoot a dog.

Raptorq7r13
July 3, 2009, 12:42 AM
If a dog I don't know is biting me, I think that it's a pretty good guess that life will be compromised if you don't do something. Don't just shoot a dog because it's loose and running around. If it's a threat, it doesn't have to be actively attacking me to constitute my attention and, if necessary, elimination of the threat.

wankerjake
July 3, 2009, 12:47 AM
If it was a person everyone would be saying you should have called the police

That's just it; it wasn't a person, it was a flippin dog, and it showed aggression towards him and his wife on his own property. He doesn't have to put up with that crap. There is no reason to call the police about a dog when you can take care of it yourself before a human gets bitten.

conw
July 3, 2009, 12:52 AM
Every now and then critters have to be reminded that we're the top of the foodchain (with exception of the parasites that live on or within us :uhoh:)

Is it just my take on things, or has THR been a little cracked out lately? :scrutiny::uhoh::confused::p

bensdad
July 3, 2009, 12:53 AM
Good shoot. Might wanna keep it to yourself next time. Bury it deep enough that your own dogs can't dig it up.

Yo Mama
July 3, 2009, 12:55 AM
Again, aggression is not justified to defend yourself. I understand the emotions, but look at it outside of the feelings.

Some additional comments are concerning regarding creulty to animals that have been posted.

wankerjake
July 3, 2009, 01:12 AM
Ok, outside the emotions, it seems that a stray dog frequents his property and showed aggression towards him and his wife. Now in fact, I don't know this guy from Adam. Never met the gent before. Emotions completely aside, I think he was absolutely in the right to shoot that dog that was actively causing problems on his property. The way I see it he had 3 options: 1. Fix the problem immediately and for good by shooting the dog. 2. Call the police or the pound and put the burden on somebody else, so the dog could end up somebody else's problem. 3. Worry about being cruel to the animal and let it roam his place untamed until it bit his wife when she is conducting business in her own yard.
I know I'm being sarcastic but I don't understand the "cruelty to animals" aspect of this situation. He didn't skin it alive, or hobble it and hang it upside down in his barn. He just killed it and now it's dead. Anyway I know we all have our opinions on the matter but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I was him.

average_shooter
July 3, 2009, 01:15 AM
Guys, seriously, unless your life is compromised don't fricking shoot an animal.

I don't know you, and thus I don't know your life experience or education. But with all due respect, my degree is in Conservation. I've studied this stuff.

Stray, once tame pets can certainly wreak havoc on native populations and must be dealt with. We cannot allow animals once domesticated to roam free to disturb natural systems any more than they already have been. It's not just dogs, either. Cats are problematic in many areas because they kill native, possibly endangered or threatened birds. Pigs are a big problem in certain areas because they can completely destroy the ecosystem by rooting around and digging everything up.

And it's not just animals, either. Garlic mustard was established in gardens to use for food. Spotted knapweed (just realized I meant Purple Loosestrife) is still sold in some garden stores as a pretty flower. Hell, even dandelions had to be introduced to this continent.

There's something to be said for leaving natural systems natural. But feral, invasive animals are not part of most, if any, natural systems.

Yo Mama
July 3, 2009, 01:17 AM
^At least I respect your polite response. :)

bensdad
July 3, 2009, 01:19 AM
Some additional comments are concerning regarding creulty to animals that have been posted.

The only "cruelty to animals" I've seen posted is encouraging people to let feral dogs live... so they can eviscerate domestic cats, kill livestock, kill family dogs (on their owner's property), force people to live in fear (on their own property) and raise all manner of hell. These dogs will die of something. Freeze to death? Starve? Get hit by a car? Kill each other? Dehydration? Tell us, which death is better than the HUMANE bullet delivered by the man who's kids can't play outside? Which death is preferable to the one delivered by a farmer who's lost thousands of dollars worth of livestock and can't afford to lose any more?

Sometimes I wonder why people don't think things through. Then again, maybe I'm the one who doesn't see clearly. That's possible.

Carne Frio
July 3, 2009, 01:23 AM
Loose dogs that show feral behavior to pets, livestock
or people need to be either live trapped and taken to
local animal control or shot. Better that than some
child be mauled or killed.

Nematocyst
July 3, 2009, 01:43 AM
Interesting to see all the 642 owners in this thread. :rolleyes:

Only dog I ever had to shoot at was not "feral" per se, but one step removed. Its owner - my neighbor in a quasi-country area (rural Washington on Puget Sound near Olympia) - let it and it's son run free, despite my repeated protestations.

The old one was testy. They would trot through my yard on the way to their favorite stomping grounds. I tried hard to befriend them because I like dogs. I'd go to the neighbor's house and pet them while he was with them. I kept biscuits at my back door to offer them when they came by (even though I didn't have a dog then).

I think the "dad" was probably senile. Once, he came through the back yard alone, saw me on the back porch, came up to the porch, barking and growling rather viciously. I just went inside, resolved to call animal control the next day.

Later that night (or the next), a friend arrived from out of town around midnight. The two dogs came up into my driveway exhibiting aggressive behavior toward me and my friend.

I stepped inside, grabbed my 9mm (yes, I was once a heretical owner of a bottom feeder ;) ), and fired off a round into a dirt berm just left of the driveway (no houses behind it in that direction; only Puget Sound).

Those dogs left peel out marks with their feet in the driveway. Never saw them again on my property.

Spot
July 3, 2009, 02:09 AM
Feral, n. That which was once tame and useful but which has since become wild and dangerous. Example: The Feral Government.

Gud 'un!!!

hoptob
July 3, 2009, 03:48 AM
Those dogs left peel out marks with their feet in the driveway. Never saw them again on my property.

Good point, Nem. A warning shot could have been enough to scare the dogs off.

Mike

jt1
July 3, 2009, 05:04 AM
While I do not advocate indiscriminate killing of any living thing, The only issues I have with the actions of the OP is that by his own omission he should have selected a more appropriate weapon given the fact he was aware of the situation and had the opportunity to do so...given the threat posed to his family I personally would have taken actions to reduce it completely and hopefully avoid a future encounter by my loved ones or other vulnerable people. I like dogs as much as the next guy but all PCBS aside, we all have the responsibility to safeguard good folks from bad things, whatever, or whoever that may be...

cottonmouth
July 3, 2009, 08:37 AM
Where's the pics?

J.B.

MCgunner
July 3, 2009, 09:43 AM
Shoot on sight!!! What the hell!!!

Guys, seriously, unless your life is compromised don't fricking shoot an animal. I've been bit multiple times, and never would be justified to shoot a dog.

It's just a danged dog. I've SSS'ed 'em on my place just for being there. They harrass wildlife and and kill deer, grown deer, and just leave 'em to rot. Feral dogs do not belong there and deserve eradication. Turn your ire to the folks that would dump the dogs there in the first place. They didn't have the cojones to put the dogs down, left it up to me.

You can legally kill any animal after livestock in this state even though they've gotten stupid with the animal cruelty laws. You don't even have to catch the animal in the act. You can just suspect him and it's legal. Unfortunately for me, that does not cover cats, but I was protecting property when I shot that animal and that's justification in Texas to shoot man or beast, as well as self defense when he turned on me.

I love dogs, but I also don't give quarter to feral ones or marauding pets. Don't want your dog killed, don't violate the lease laws and let it come in my yard and kill my cats. I'd be really sad if someone shot my lab. He's a good dog, well trained retriever, loves to hunt, but if he was killin' someone else's animals, I'd understand if he got shot. He's on a leash, though, as per required by ordinance in this town. And, I've not had any problems since I got him. He keeps the bad dogs away. :D I don't think anyone loves dogs more than a hunter. Ruger's my duck hunting buddy after all. But, I don't get stupid over it, join PETA, or something. :rolleyes:

xXxplosive
July 3, 2009, 10:03 AM
Doesn't seem to me you had to kill anything......dog was at a distance as you said and probably tellin you they just wanted to be left alone. I understand you want them off your property but it seems you just wanted to try out your revolver on something....I have no problem with dispatching an animal in self defense, for food, etc. but your story doesn't pan out and just a judgement call.....yours, deciding life and death.

Obviously I don't condone taking any life for no reason.......especially dogs.

IMO Lousy Story and Poor Judgement.

springfield30-06
July 3, 2009, 10:21 AM
Doesn't seem to me you had to kill anything......dog was at a distance as you said and probably tellin you they just wanted to be left alone. I understand you want them off your property but it seems you just wanted to try out your revolver on something....I have no problem with dispatching an animal in self defense, for food, etc. but your story doesn't pan out and just a judgement call.....yours, deciding life and death.

Obviously I don't condone taking any life for no reason.......especially dogs.

IMO Lousy Story and Poor Judgement.

Umm... as I understand this story, this is not someones pet that wandered into his barn... this was a feral dog. As the guy with the conservation degree posted, they do nothing but disrupt and kill the deer, your pet dogs & cats, etc. and aren't afraid of humans. Have you seen one? They're out back of my place almost every night and have the nads to walk down the damn sidewalk sometimes.

This type of dog is not a pet.

harmonic
July 3, 2009, 10:31 AM
but your story doesn't pan out and just a judgement call

Yo, einstein, try actually reading the post. The dogs threatened his wife thus proving they were a menace.

What are you? A ********** kop? You want somebody dead before you agree there's an actual threat?

The OP pursued all legal channels. Animal control behaved like all good govt bureaucrats, viz. "Don't bother me at lunch."

You guys kill me.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2009, 10:31 AM
Feral dogs and cats kill more wildlife in this country than hunters and automobiles combined. To allow them to run loose is to condemn native wildlife to heavy preditation.

Yo Mama
July 3, 2009, 10:32 AM
I don't think the dispute is in thinking these are not dangerous animals. I absolutely carry a gun when I'm hiking for just this reason.

I think the dispute is in the way OP went about seeking out the animals. His life may have been put in immediate danger, this is up to them to decide. I feel in the posting however that OP sought out the dogs after his wife was in danger. It's two different situations. She should have shot them as they attacked. He looked for them.

harmonic
July 3, 2009, 10:34 AM
Is it just my take on things, or has THR been a little cracked out lately?

It's summer. Gun forums that allow registration with free email addresses get flooded with bored children out of school.

Oddly enough, the technical sections of THR seem to be immune to their trolling.

sophijo
July 3, 2009, 10:38 AM
Jti........+1

harmonic
July 3, 2009, 10:39 AM
I think the dispute is in the way OP went about seeking out the animals.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. The OP didn't seek the dogs out. They invaded his property, threatened his wife and then threatened him when he tried to get the off.

For a forum populated with people who espouse absolute control re one's own property rights, you have some weird standards.

my wife was out walking our greyhound yesterday, and they came out of the swamp and barked at her, then one of them advanced growling. When my wife sped back to the house the dogs set up shop in our barn.

I walked back to the barn and noticed three of the dogs sleeping in the grass behind the barn. I whistled them up and gave them a chance to leave quietly. Unfortunately, one of them advanced at me barking. So I decided that's the dog that would die.


Very straight forward. The only problem I see is that the OP invited your opinion.

maroast
July 3, 2009, 10:54 AM
Where's the pics?

J.B.



LOL, yeah, Pics or it didn't happen! (just kidding)



I have 3 dogs, 2 of which sleep under the blankets with me....I dont even kill bugs in the house (open the door and set them free alive).

But this is nonsense, if these dogs have been a problem for some time and were exhibiting aggressive behavior, then they were dealt with in an appropriate manner.

About 3 years ago my girl was attacked and bitten by a problematic dog in our neighborhood while walking our dogs. The flippant owner took no responsibility for his dogs actions, and threatened us after his dog was taken away and destroyed. Had I been present at the time of the attack I can assure the dog would heave been cut to ribbons....this coming from a person who doesnt even kill bugs!! (except them damn skeeters)

xXxplosive
July 3, 2009, 11:07 AM
IMO there are other ways to handle that situation other than "So I decided that's the dog that's gonna die" .....Sucks IMO.
IMO Poor Judgement, obviously there was no immediate threat other than a warning by the dog.....he could have let them leave on there own and resorted to other measures around the barn to keep them away.
Instead he wanted to use the revolver and CT Laser on something.....NG.

You didn't have to kill anything with your 642......you wanted to, obviously.

schlockinz
July 3, 2009, 11:14 AM
I think being a good steward of the land is to remove most invasive species (I'll let the pheasants slide on this one ;)).

That being said, I've had dogs act aggressively towards me bow hunting, and had I had a gun, I would have dumped them. I did find them dead later one where someone shot them during blackpowder (large entry hole, or maybe they got slugged).

I have no pity for an animal that has gone feral. If it still acts tame, I'll try and take it in, maybe it can get adopted or id'd at a shelter, otherwise, they're just like pigs to me.

harmonic
July 3, 2009, 11:14 AM
he could have let them leave on there own and resorted to other measures around the barn to keep them away

Typical lib thinking. "You had no right to shoot my son even though he broke into your house and was coming at you with a knife. You should have shot the knife out of his hand!"

What measures should he have taken to keep them away? Electric fence? Barricades?

I can see it now. "Excuse me dogs, would you kindly leave and allow me the opportunity to erect some animal proof structure at great expense to myself?"

LOL! The threat was immanent and domestic livestock (and people) was in danger.

wankerjake
July 3, 2009, 11:17 AM
IMO there are other ways to handle that situation other than "Well your the dog that's gonna die"
IMO Poor Judgement, obviously there was no immediate threat other than a warning by the dog.....he could have let them leave on there own and resorted to other measures around the barn to keep them away.
IMO he wanted to use the revolver and CT Laser on something.....NG.
Oh yeah, there was a threat. Oh yeah, it growled at his wife too.
he could have let them leave on there own and resorted to other measures around the barn to keep them away
I think he should have invited the animals to weather out in his barn. They could stay fed on his geese.

You know what, I think he should have asked the dog politely to leave. And when it bit him, he should have started crying and ran back inside and said, "the d-dog b-b-bitted me." Then he should have called animal control so they could tell him "hey, you should just leave wild animals alone, or you might get hurt." My we've gotten soft haven't we, when people get up in arms about something as justified as this?

xXxplosive
July 3, 2009, 11:21 AM
Guy.....I'm no lib and you don't know who your talkin to. But I see other means other than just seeing if the gun works on one dog....again Lousy Post IMO.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2009, 11:24 AM
IMO there are other ways to handle that situation other than "So I decided that's the dog that's gonna die"
Like what?

Next time I catch feral dogs on my property, I'll trap them and ship them to you. How's that?

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2009, 11:27 AM
I patrol my property. If there's something that doesn't belong there -- a man or a dog -- you bet I go looking for it. Trespassers and feral dogs don't have a right to keep me off my own property.

Now, men I warn, and if necessary file charges against them. Feral animals I shoot. Anyone who thinks I should do otherwise, speak up, and I'll ship them to you.

Keb
July 3, 2009, 11:39 AM
One of my buddies shot an attacking neighbor dog on his own property, protecting himself and his wife. Like Post #39.

Neighbor gets him charged by sheriff deps under Colo Animal Cruelty Law. He beats the Criminal case, then loses in Civil Court.

Colo has Make-My-Day law for protecting against humans, but you may lose if it is a dog.

average_shooter
July 3, 2009, 12:05 PM
To those suggesting vague "alternatives" to the OP's situation, what exactly would you propose?

Anyone else here have cable? Have the Animal Planet channel? I've seen a show on there where they follow around animal control/rescue groups and show what they do and what situations they encounter, kind of like COPS but with animals.

At least a couple times I've caught the show they were dealing with stray/feral dogs. Some dogs were treated at a shelter then people started working with them to see if they were able to be adopted out. Some were able to be allowed back into some deserving person's home, but others could not even be saved by those who make it their duty to do so, and had to be put down.

It happens, death is a part of life; not all can be saved and that goes for humans as well as animals. A dog with rabies isn't in it's "right mind" anymore and needs to be dealt with. Even dogs that are otherwise healthy can get into a pack and a "pack mentality" that causes them to do things they might not otherwise do. (Interestingly, the same goes for people...) In such situations even animal control or the police will likey destroy the animal in one way or another.

So you can complain that this guy was in the wrong for shooting the dog, but the police probably would do the same thing if they even bothered to respond to the call. And animal control would have euthanized the dog later in some room, behind closed doors. But maybe you just want it "out of sight, out of mind" so you can feel better about it and pretend it doesn't happen.

dough448
July 3, 2009, 12:28 PM
SSS,

DAdams
July 3, 2009, 12:46 PM
Interesting to see all the 642 owners in this thread.


Bring a 340. ;):neener: why send a boy to do a man's job.
Seeing the EBR (evil black revolver) would have caused instant life cessation post haste w/o unleashing a round.

Where is that eating popcorn emoticon when you need it.

But seriously folks....go live in the country, on a farm or the outback or bush for a year or so and come back and opine. You want an andreniline rush have a 75lb four legged critter attack yo azz, torn flesh, puncture wounds, stitches, and perhaps a fun course of rabies shots.

MCgunner
July 3, 2009, 02:02 PM
Shooting coyotes for sport is a big thing out in flyover country. What's the difference in "seeking out" a coyote and "seeking out" a feral dog? Same Genus, Canis, after all. If anything, the coyote is native to his habitat and kills only to eat. I don't know anyone who's actively hunted coyote, including myself, who eats the things. :barf: They are killed for sport.

texas bulldog
July 3, 2009, 02:33 PM
I think the dispute is in the way OP went about seeking out the animals. His life may have been put in immediate danger, this is up to them to decide. I feel in the posting however that OP sought out the dogs after his wife was in danger. It's two different situations. She should have shot them as they attacked. He looked for them.

trying to get feral dogs off your property is not the same as "seeking them out". i have to agree with the poster above who likens this logic to the folks who think you're not justified shooting someone who has broken into your house at night. at what point is defending yourself, your family, and your property acceptable to you?

the fact remains that the solution for feral dogs is death. there isn't another one. police would likely have shot it. animal control would have euthanized it. left in the wild it would have starved, froze, or otherwise died a painful death.

rest assured that aggressive invaders of my property, whether human or animal, will be "sought out" if i deem that the best method of ensuring my family's safety. your perspective seems more than a little skewed to me...


ETA: i have four dogs, a cat, chickens, more than a dozen box turtles, etc. i love animals. however, this is not an animal cruelty issue.

theotherwaldo
July 3, 2009, 04:29 PM
The problem isn't that one dog is dead. The problem is that two other feral dogs are still roaming the area.

That can be pretty bad news.

hwp
July 3, 2009, 04:39 PM
I don't even think the dogs have to be aggressive to you to "justify" anything.

I can assure you if I catch a dog damaging my crops or stock it will be shot. The dog may be friendly as can be but if it damages my property it will be dealt with.

I live in the sticks and can assure you a friendly dog kills chickens. Chicken killing dogs will be shot.

Some "animal lovers" devolve into almost a fetish mentality with animal love. Animals are NOT humans and need to be managed if they present a problem.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2009, 04:50 PM
The problem isn't that one dog is dead. The problem is that two other feral dogs are still roaming the area.
But there's one less now. And it's been my experience -- and I'e dealt with some pretty aggressive feral dogs -- that killing one tends to make the rest a lot more respectful of humans.

MCgunner
July 3, 2009, 05:15 PM
Well, I know he probably didn't think about it at the time, but I think the OP should have gone in the house and grabbed a shotgun or rifle and taken a couple more out. Hopefully, he's seen the last of 'em, though.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2009, 05:20 PM
I agree that while it's good to thin them out a bit, with a little forethought you can get them all.

nrthwoods
July 3, 2009, 05:38 PM
I think it's safe to say no one on here has some kind of vendetta against dogs, but when you've got ones that showed aggression to your lady, and your dog, especially after running them off and decide to hang around in the barn?

He went to go see if they were still there, their very presence at this point puts him and the other people living there at risk. In his own home, that he has worked for. If they didn't scatter and took the same route with me, I'd have shot em too. Perhaps he could have let one ring in an attempt to run them off but I wouldn't have been keep on shootin up my barn either to give something acting with the intent to hurt me the chance to change it's mind.

Nematocyst
July 3, 2009, 06:29 PM
Where is that eating popcorn emoticon when you need it.http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif

kmrcstintn
July 3, 2009, 07:22 PM
you cannot truly know what instinctive intentions that crazed critter had when he advanced on you; I hope you do not dwell on this too long and erode your confidence in the decision that you made to protect your life and sustain your ability to provide for and protect your loved ones; as far as the suggestion about using a very, very lightweight alloy framed .357 magnum snubby revolver...not everyone can properly control shot placement due to bucking the massive recoil from such a beast of a weapon; my lightest handguns are my 642's; as far as .357 magnum shooters...I will not go below the weight of a steel framed .357 magnum snubby (and even then I will load with medium velocity loads); good to know that you have confidence in your chosen CCW defensive weapon...I have to shoot mine 2 or 3 times a year to reacclimate and refocus my shooting from recreational fun to defensive mode

Tropical Buzz
July 3, 2009, 07:26 PM
I'm on the record here as being against the random killing of animals for kicks or for boosting up a flaccid ego; but in this case as related, the OP did good. What else should he have done - wait for the wild dogs to attack and maul his girl before taking action?

I like dogs and other animals, but if they enter my property and pose a threat to my family or pets, they will be dispatched with extreme prejudice. There would be no pleasure in doing it but I would not want to deal with the sickening guilt if I failed to act and they went on to harm someone else - particularly a member of my family. Go looking for them? You bet I would if I came home and my wife told me she was chased indoors by wild dogs lurking on our property.

Dogbite
July 3, 2009, 07:48 PM
When I was a kid, we lived in Fairbanks, AK. The town started to have a real problem with wild dogs in huge packs-kids getting attacked, etc. They announced on the news that any dog without a collar running loose would be shot. We did a rotation, with four guys with rifles in the back of a pickup, and shot them every week until there was no more problem. The End.

MCgunner
July 3, 2009, 08:49 PM
Ya just gotta love Alaska. :D

BlackHand1917
July 3, 2009, 09:42 PM
Ya did what ya had to do. It's the people that let those dogs loose that are the miserable currs in the story.

Geno
July 3, 2009, 09:53 PM
I am glad to hear that all turned out well. I appreciate the sensitive and professional means by which you have shared your experience. As has been stated, there are dogs, and there and dogs. They are not all pets.

4v50 Gary
July 3, 2009, 10:07 PM
The problem isn't that one dog is dead. The problem is that two other feral dogs are still roaming the area.

But there's one less now. And it's been my experience -- and I'e dealt with some pretty aggressive feral dogs -- that killing one tends to make the rest a lot more respectful of humans.

Concur with Vern Humphrey. The surviving dogs have been reminded who is the Alpha animal and why we're on top of the food chain.

qwert65
July 3, 2009, 11:07 PM
Well to start I'm going to say that with the info availible I'd say good shoot.

I would like to remind all that dogs communicate by barking, and when scared feint aggression. In this case they were on the OP's property so again good shoot. I am troubled by some here who seem to be pretty eager to kill anything that tresspasses on thier property. I'd like to remind them that animals have thier own boundries same as other wildlife and indiscriminate killing of animals is suspect higher species behavior. I've shot dogs on my property, sometimes it is important. However, in at least twice as many cases I've returned the dog to it's owner/animal control.
Let's remember that most of these feral dogs were once devoted pets who were abandoned and now are trying to survive, If I can give them a chance at a humane shelter I think thats one more break then they've ever gotten.
Again In this case I prob would of shot them myself, I'll get off my soapbox now and urge you to consider that killing while part of life is not to be taken lightly

springmom
July 3, 2009, 11:10 PM
I have only one problem with the story posted by the OP.

Why didn't his *wife* shoot the dogs? :D:D:D

Seriously, to those who think this was a bad shoot...you *really* need to spend some time out in the country and find out just how destructive wild dogs can be. We've been blessed so far to be spared, but we do hear dog packs from time to time, and I never ever let my dogs out while at the ranch, especially at night, without me or Archerandshooter being out there with them, armed. We have yearling calves and I spent a great deal of worry in their first months over whether a pack of dogs would find them in the night.

They kill deer, chickens, geese, calves, and...(this is most important) THEY KNOW NO FEAR OF HUMANS. Even a coyote will maintain some caution around humans in most situations, but a feral dog remembers JUST ENOUGH of its past life to remember "people are not a threat" but with all the wildness of other canids overlaid on that. Therefore, people, their property, and their livestock, are in danger.

It was a good shoot. And I too am a dog lover and have had at least one for most of my life. But a wild dog....I care more about my family and my health than I do about that dog.


Jan

PcolaDawg
July 4, 2009, 01:14 AM
Hey, thanks for all of the replies to my original post. Y'all have some interesting takes on it.

Just to be clear, I did NOT like shooting the dog, and it was NOT something I was hoping I'd get the chance to do that evening. Even when I found them, I gave them every chance to leave. I hope I never have to do it again.

However, if I had NOT taken that shot and just retreated back to the house when the dog started advancing while barking, I believe that would have been shirking my duty as a husband, father, and owner of my property, including the ducks/geese that I raise. Although I am sorry I had to do it, I do not regret it and I would do the same thing again. And I will if any of the other dogs return, although after I killed the one (probably the Alpha of the pack), the other dogs have not been seen or heard from.

Someone mentioned that what I did almost seemed like I was hunting the dogs. Well, heck yeah. If my family is threatened on my property by an aggressive dog, you can bet I will hunt it and, if I find it, kill it.

One of my only regrets, and something that was mentioned in one of the posts above, is that I had the wrong weapon. I was conceal carrying my 642, and I went to check things out right after I parked my car. So I didn't take the time to go into the house and get my .45 or my shotgun. I wish I had, but things worked out fine anyway, because the 642 got the job done. The reason I didn't go into the house to get a bigger weapon is because I really didn't expect the dogs to still be there. My bad.

The only other time I've had to shoot wild animals on my property is when two wild pigs decided my backyard was their new home. They were not afraid of humans, rooted up the yard and were big enough (300 pounders) to be a real threat to my wife and kids (at the time my 3 boys were pretty young). I took both of the pigs out with my 30 .06 from the second floor balcony on the back of my house. I don't regret that either, plus they were some good eatin'. :D

Anyway, I'm absolutely confident I did the right thing in shooting the dog. Still, I respect differing opinions and I will be happy to answer any questions from those that wonder if I did the right thing or not.

76shuvlinoff
July 4, 2009, 07:57 AM
I live in the country with horses dogs and cats. ...MY horses, dogs, and cats. Our dogs are rescues from the pound. Our cats showed up stray and were taken in for neutering and vaccinations .
A stray friendly dog gets a bye from me, possibly a drink and an attempt to find the owner. I am nothing if not animal friendly but an aggressive stray on my property gets shot and buried, period. From what I have seen single strays are shy, the trouble comes when there are two or more.

DAdams
July 4, 2009, 08:37 AM
alot of Baco Bits.

The only other time I've had to shoot wild animals on my property is when two wild pigs decided my backyard was their new home. They were not afraid of humans, rooted up the yard and were big enough (300 pounders) to be a real threat to my wife and kids (at the time my 3 boys were pretty young). I took both of the pigs out with my 30 .06 from the second floor balcony on the back of my house. I don't regret that either, plus they were some good eatin'.


Things grow big in FL.

I remember one time when giant cockroaches......;)

tydephan
July 4, 2009, 09:06 AM
One of my only regrets, and something that was mentioned in one of the posts above, is that I had the wrong weapon. I was conceal carrying my 642, and I went to check things out right after I parked my car. So I didn't take the time to go into the house and get my .45 or my shotgun. I wish I had, but things worked out fine anyway, because the 642 got the job done. The reason I didn't go into the house to get a bigger weapon is because I really didn't expect the dogs to still be there. My bad.
Well, that's why we carry, isn't it? There's almost always a better gun for the job in the safe. Nothing like the one we have on our body at the time we need it though.

Knowing there was a potential threat, I might have carried something else as well. But it's not a bad thing that you responded with your carry weapon. You never know when that experience will come in handy.

moooose102
July 4, 2009, 09:08 AM
while it sucks haveing to shoot a dog, i certainly understand your predicament. if people would just have their dogs fixed, or only breed them to either sell the pups, or give them away responsible, or keep them for themselves, there wouldn't be wild dogs running around. when i was young, we had 2 female beagles, and my dad would not have them fixed. so every six months, we had to go outside with them when we let them out to go to the bathroom to make sure they did not get breed. what a pain, and a mess. they both ended up getting abortions shots a couple of times regardless. i have all of my dogs fixed. every single one. i wouldn't even think about it any other way. think of it this way, you probably saved it from dying a slow painful death from heartworms. any wild dog hanging around a swamp area is going to get them.

MCgunner
July 4, 2009, 09:10 AM
I had possums get IN my house, once. :D I didn't call the exterminator, just Mr. Ruger and his 10/22. Life ain't the same inside the loop as outside the loop. :D

Tropical Buzz
July 4, 2009, 02:15 PM
The deed is already done and most seem to agree it was unfortunate but still a good shoot, so I would like to know more about the gun, the ammo, the CT grips, how they performed and what the terminal effect was on the target.

Did you actually put the laser on a vital area and hit POA?
Did the round stop the target instantly or did it take a while?
How big was the dog and what breed?
What was the bullet weight/ammo brand?
Did the other dogs scatter at the sound of the shot or slink away when their comrade went down?
Based on the experience, any other thoughts on the 642, the ammo and/or the laser grips?

bigione
July 4, 2009, 02:37 PM
In Colorad and S Dakota. one can shoot any dog threating livestock. I had a go around with a transplanted eastern lawyer in Steamboat Springs but sloved it without hiring lawyer. Just had to look up the law at the library. I've had to shot a pack of 27 dogs chasing my cattle in S Dak. Eaiser to do than coyotes.

PcolaDawg
July 4, 2009, 03:37 PM
Very good questions all. I'll take 'em one at a time.

Did you actually put the laser on a vital area and hit POA?
Yes. It was a long enough shot that I doubt if I would've taken it without the laser sight. Now, it wasn't a long shot for most guns, but - for me - it was a long shot for a short lightweight snubby. I'd estimate about 30 feet. I had the laser on it's head as it was advancing. It stopped for an instant, looked back at it's buddies, and gave me a broadside. I put the laser right above it's front leg and that's where the bullet hit. I love that laser sight. If I didn't have it, I wouldn't have been nearly as confident with that gun, which is half the battle.
Did the round stop the target instantly or did it take a while?
Unfortunately, the dog didn't die instantly which is a shame. It went straight down and started a very high pitched yipping, but was dead before I got to it, so it died quickly, but not instantly.
How big was the dog and what breed?
It wasn't a real big dog, but it was very stout. And it had long hair. It was a mutt, so there's no telling what breeds it consisted of, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had some Setter, Retriever, or Labradour, or maybe even collie, mixed in. But I couldn't tell you for sure. It was the size of a smallish Golden Retriever.
What was the bullet weight/ammo brand?
It was a Winchester .38 Plus P 130g Supreme T Series.
Did the other dogs scatter at the sound of the shot or slink away when their comrade went down?
They disappeared so fast it's like they teleported. Gone. Instantly, and I've yet to see them since.
Based on the experience, any other thoughts on the 642, the ammo and/or the laser grips?
Just that I'm very glad I've practice a lot with the 642. I'm very impressed with it, and I am SO glad I paid the extra $$$ for the CT grip. Worth it, worth it, worth it. And I'm also glad I put plus p defense rounds in it. This was the first gun I bought when I decided to conceal carry (I now have six different handguns) and I have always been impressed with it. The kick has never bothered me, and I've practiced with it enough that I feel confident shooting it. I have practiced a lot with it without using the laser grip, because it's very easy to start relying on it, and you never know if you're going to get the chance to use it in a situation where the laser would be useful. But when you can use the laser grip, and the shot has to count, the laser is worth it's weight in hollow points.

wally
July 4, 2009, 07:12 PM
These dogs will die of something. Freeze to death? Starve? Get hit by a car? Kill each other? Dehydration? Tell us, which death is better than the HUMANE bullet delivered by the man who's kids can't play outside? Which death is preferable to the one delivered by a farmer who's lost thousands of dollars worth of livestock and can't afford to lose any more?

A spilled can of anti-freeze is quite effective if you can keep your animals from it.

--wally.

Tropical Buzz
July 4, 2009, 08:08 PM
Thanks for the replies Dawg. Defensive carry guns (thankfully) seldom get used on anything other than paper targets so it is always good to learn all we can from real world SD scenarios.

alsaqr
July 4, 2009, 08:30 PM
Feral dogs are a serious problem in this part of OK. Folks take their unwanted mutts to the country and turn them loose.

Was attacked by a big Samoyed as I opened a gate last year. That one deceased when the 370 grain .50 caliber bullet from my muzzleloder hit him. This spring I killed two dogs on one of our places that were chasing deer. Recently killed two pit bulls that were chasing a friend's cattle. Feral dogs in this part of OK are fair game, with the concurrence of the local sheriff. PETA does not have a big following here.

jimmyraythomason
July 4, 2009, 08:44 PM
Here's a dilema; here in Alabama it is a felony to kill a dog. In the OP's scenario,do you kill the one aggressive dog hoping the others will leave(only to become someone else's problem) or stop by the house to get something appropriate and take them all out solving the problem but violating the law. In the rural areas there is no such thing as animal control so no one to call. I know what I would(and have done)do. Does protecting your family take precedence over the letter of the law? I have my answer,what's yours? (After reading some of these posts I think I know.)

Rockwell1
July 4, 2009, 09:40 PM
A spilled can of anti-freeze is quite effective if you can keep your animals from it.

To kill an animal by acute renal failure is disgusting an cruel. The fact that you would deliberately do something that is ,in essence, going to torture any animal that drinks it to death makes me question your sanity.

As for the OP you killed a problem dog in the most humane way you could good shoot.

Spay and nueter your pets people and we won't be reading these threads

Deltaboy
July 4, 2009, 09:55 PM
I have 3-S's dozens of Dogs over the years when I was raising chickens. We were 5 miles out of town and city folk loved to dump those Christmas presents on our road.

Good for you and don't let the crys of Leftist Liberals keep you from protecting yourself and your property.

SharpsDressedMan
July 4, 2009, 10:13 PM
I can tell you buying an animal in the winter here is a pain in the tennis elbow.........@&%#^!! frozen ground..........

Rockwell1
July 4, 2009, 10:19 PM
What does frozen ground have to do with buying an animal? Do you bury your money in a coffe can?

noob_shooter
July 4, 2009, 10:22 PM
if you have any semi auto rifles like ak's or AR's... you should hunt all of them down. I would. I would've taken my saiga 308 and blast all those... kill every last one of them...

jimmyraythomason
July 4, 2009, 10:33 PM
Here is something to think about.<http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/07/pickens_county_sheriff_says_wi.html>

punkndisorderly
July 4, 2009, 11:48 PM
I wasn't there, so I won't comment on this post in particular. In general, dangerous dogs should be dealt with by animal control or the sheriffs department. If they choose to not take care of the problem, then it falls to the landowner to take care of the problem in the most humane way possible. To do otherwise puts you at about the same level as the individuals who drop of Rover and Fido out in the woods and doom them to a life of near starvation, dissease, and flea infestation. Someone who would poison a dog and doom it to a painful death (along with any other animals who happened to wander by) is just sick.

Art Eatman
July 5, 2009, 12:04 AM
Five pages about a minor incident is sufficient...

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