[BlindJustice]

.45 Auto Rim came into existence in 1920 when
Remington-Peters offered it as an alternative to
.45 ACP & Half Moon Clips for the M1917 and civilian
version of the same in their N-Frame revolvers.
The only load I know of that Rem.Peters offered was a
230 gr. RNL (soft lead ) bullet at approx. 810 FPS
SAAMI has rated it in the same categorey as .45 Colt,
.44 Special and other older cartridges that began
life with black powder charges. Yet it has a thicker
rim than a standard rimmed case ( 0.0810" vs 0.0615
approx. ) Rem. Peters is now just Remington/UMC and
none of the big four offer the .45 AR Indeed S&W does
not even mention the cartridge for thier .45 ACP chambered
revolvers.

Buffalo Bore has a couple of new loads to consider in
.45 AR.
------------------------------------------------------
+P 255 gr. Hard cast FN @ 1,000 FPS 566 ft lbs

+P 200 gr. JHP @ 1200 FPS 639 ft lbs

Reeds Ammunition & Research
-----------------------------------
185 gr. Rem. Golden Saber JHP @ 1100 FPS
230 gr. Rem. Golden Saber JHP @ 944 FPS

260 gr. Scorpion HP (Cast) @ 900 FPS
260 gr. Woodshed FP (Cast) @ 900 FPS


Also recommended for medium game but No velocity llisted
250 gr. Nosler SP
250 gr. Barnes XPB
225 gr. Barnes XPB


I've got some of the 225 gr. Barnes XPB
it certainly has as stout as 230 gr. .45 ACP +P
in felt recoil & will chrono it when I get one available.

COrBon has some light and fast JHP loads as well.

Double Tap.
230 gr. Bonded JHP 900 FPS / 415 Ft Lbs
255 gr. Keith Style SWC 904 FPS / 463 ft lbs

------------------------

Just wanted to share for anyone with a S&W .45 ACP
chambered revolver who hasn't heard of this round,
or otherwise didn't know of thiese offereings.


My favorite revolver is my 625 5" Bbl. - Fun gun, and
after others put away their Magnums the .45 AR/.45 ACP
625 just keeps booming away with it's easy to take recoil.

SUre would be nice to have a lever gun in .45 Auto Rim with
a 18.5" bbl. probably hold a dozen rounds in the tubular magazine

Randall

[BCRider]

I've got a .357 lever gun with a 20 inch barrel and magazine tube. It won't let me fit the 11th round in when loading .38Spl so you won't get 12 loaded in with an 18.5. Mind you I didn't look up the overall cartridge length for both.

How close is the Auto Rim chambering to 45LC? Maybe with some minor internal work the AR cartridges would fit into one of the 45LC lever guns?

EDIT- Never mind. I looked up the sizes and while the bullets would go into the barrel just fine the casing neck and base are .004 larger for the LC so that would stretch the casing of the auto rim too much. On the other hand if you didn't mind shortening or sleeving the barrel and then re-chambering for the .45 Auto rim it seems like it should work if you were to make some minor changes to the cartridge lift.

[BlindJustice]

Well, the .45 Auto Rim has the same case trim to length of 0.898

.45 Colt and the .357/.41&.44 Mag which have been or are offered
in the Marlin 1894 with a 20" Bbl. carry 10 cartridges in the tube. The
manual for these lever guns list a maximum and minimum OAL cartrdige
lenth The trick is the spoon in the action that is the carrier for
the cartridge. In Cowboy Action Shooting they have come up with
the .45 Cowboy Special - a shortened .45 Colt case shortened to 0.898
indes in len. There are some gunsmiths who have created a short spoon/
carrier in order to convert a Marlin .45 Colt to .45 Cowboy Special. The
Cowboy SPecial are loaded down for the nature of COwboy Action shooting
the SAA or CLones will fire it and the Marlin will as well when converted -
talked to a gunny and the chamber would have to be inlet just a smidege
and the extracgtor perhaps modified for functioning. so it is possible.
and the gunny siad replace the original spoon/carrier in the
action and it goes back to stock .45 Colt.

The other bonus of getting the shorter spoon is the lever travel on the
Marlin is approx. 1/2 inch shorter in both directions, A Short STroker.

R-

[Oro]

Yes, 12 rounds of .45AR would likely fit in a lever gun, since they are 2/10 of an inch shorter than .38 Special rounds, but...

The rim thickness of the AR is all off because of the way the cartridge was designed. I think it's like .090" vs. the more normal .060" of the .45LC. It is unlikely it's going to function in any decent gun with a good extractor and headspace.

It would also probably horribly foul the chamber, much like .38 special in .357 magnums.

[glassman]

Thanks for the info. I recently bought a S&W M22 on impulse and didn't fully understand what I was buying...not that I regret the purchase. It was one of those "wow" moments. I came home and loaded a moon clip and thought they were excessively tight. I posted a pic and asked some questions in the pistol section and got some good information, part of which was about the auto rim. I shoot indoors and the range prohibits lead to safeguard the health of their employees. Do you know of anyone who makes jacketed range ammo in the auto rim?

[BCRider]

Doesn't the jacketed stuff just hit the backstop and pulverize into a cloud of lead and jacket?

There's few enough options for auto rim that if you do find any chances are the cost will be prohibitive. You're very likely looking at loading your own once you secure a collection of brass.

Besides, isn't much of the fun of shooting the 22 the loading and ejecting the blocks of rounds and casings in lumps instead of individual bits that scatter if you miss. Moonclips are pretty cheap at around $30'ish per 100 I've read. And the tools are not hard to find or make up yourself once you see some pictures of them in use.

If/when I could find a nice moonclip wheelie I'm planning on doing some IPSC with it just to tick off all the semi guys. The goal would be to score better than a few of them without needing a DNA transplant from Jerry Miculek....:D

[junior geezer]

don't know about a .45A-R lever gun, but Speer 8 listed some very useful loading data, eg.
240 lead at 1185fps out of a MODEL 1955. other perhaps more useful loads showed 240 lead at 1080fps and 960fps respectively.

[BlindJustice]

Ok, guys I took a nap

Let's see if I can answer your questions. Only thing I saw jacketed for the range was Double Tap 230 gr. FMJ but didn't bother to list that one.

For an .45 Auto Rim Speedloader, the HKS 25M is made for it's thicker
rim 0.0910 approx. compared to a .45 Colt of 0.0615 thickness

I have a contact with a guy who was at the Lewiston ID gun show this
spring. Garnett Ammo. I told him I've got new ( 1,000 ) cases from
Starline, as well as Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHP, 500 as well as Hornady 200 gr.
Fp-TC jacketed ( 500 ) bullets - he said he would load them to my spec.
as long as it was a safe load - so I'm looking for primers right now
I've got about 400 .45 AR with the Leadhead hardcast 200 gr. SWC loaded to
1,025 FPS Very Accurate but it's fast enough it leads up the barrel some.

Moon clips - I've got good ones from WIlson Combat some are with the nickel wash, looks nice with a SS like my 625. The WC demooner is only $3

Oh Story time...

Skeeter SKelton was one to champion the S&W N frame in .45 ACP/AR He said he knew a couple of LEOs who worked in Old El Paso - rough town
back in the late 40s/early '50s. They both had M1917 and had the barrel
shortened to 4" like the Model 22. They kept them loaded with .45 AR with
250 gr. SWC and carried .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ for quick reloads in case of a
gunfight. Those were well before JHP days.

STarline brass cases - Auto Rim isn't that much more than ACP and perhaps less than .45 Colt - it's .3 inches shorter in case length so less
material.

The owner of the range I'm a member of in Lewiston ID, usually wears his
Model 22 while working the counter - he said he competes with the Semi-Auto guys in the winter league and was in the Top 3 fwiw.

Randall

[BCRider]

The owner of the range I'm a member of in Lewiston ID, usually wears his
Model 22 while working the counter - he said he competes with the Semi-Auto guys in the winter league and was in the Top 3 fwiw.

He been cleaning the hair brushes for some of JM's hair follicles for the DNA by any chance... :D

That's nice to hear. The semi guys up here seem to think wheel guns are a good reason to just skip out and go for a brew until the wonder wheeler is FINALLY done. It would be nice to show them something to make them shake in their boots a bit... :D

[BlindJustice]

The 625 .45 ACP/AR with the 5" Bbl. dominated a category in one of the
orgs that they changed the rules and now only allow 4" Bbl. max. like the 625 JM Model

Hey, glassman, mind if I ask how much your Model 22 cost? I noticed last
month a couple of NIB on gunbroker with the bids just under $500 I'd like one with the fixed sights and the old style square butt. Do you have a Tyler
T-grip for yours?

I have Guy Hogue full size/profile - the profile is pretty much the same as
the stock rubber S&W Grips but overall a bit bigger, I have the 30 LPI checkering with finger grooves in Rosewood. Sent it back to S&W for the
Master revolver action job It's a very smooth DA and crisp light SA trigger.

Demooning .45 ACP I just toss em in a big ziploc bag and when I get home
listen to music or watch TV and emoon all the FM clips. Nice way to accumulate once fired cases for my 1911 AND I know exactly where they came from.
. -

getting back to the AUto RIm seems to me it's a shame SAAMI rates it with the older cases that started in the blackpowder era at 14,000 PSI but the case was designed for smokeless and has never been chambered for anything
other than the large N frame S&Ws.

Oh, and the poster who menioned the load data with a model 25 recall
it was also known as the 1955 Target with a 6.5 inch barrel.

Randal

[BlindJustice]

Forgot to mention the Master Revolver Action Job by S&W - besides polishing and other smoothing up of the action, the chamber mouths are
chamfered so it's easier to get the .45 AR with speedloaders -or-
.45 ACP w/full moon clips into the chambers.

R-

[glassman]

blindjustice..The gun I bought was labeled "thunder ranch S&W M22 factory demo". It came with a very nice soft case and a half dozen moon clips. No Tyler grip. I paid $650 out the door. I've been looking for a tool for ease of loading/stripping the clips and found this:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25534/catid/24/CCW_Moon_Clip_Loading__Unloading_Tool__45ACP

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w81/glassman_photos/newM22.jpg

[bobland]

A number of years ago I switched to AR cases and began loading them to Rowland specs. They were accurate and very powerful. In my obsession, I began loading them to get 1400 fps. At some point I realized that this was not a 44 mag so I stopped the crazy loads and went back to 5 gr 241 with 180 gr plated bullets. Bought a 629 to satisfy my power hunger.

I like the fact that I don't need moon clips to shoot tho I have a bunch of RIMZ clips which are OK for range work but nothing else.

[BlindJustice]

The Dillon tool looks nice but $39 wow

I use a leathermans multi tool to help stubborn
cases in loading FM clips. THe wilson COmbat demooner
is easy and only $3 I bought two

Randall

[BlindJustice]

Hey, pretty Model 22

FYI/FWIW US ARmy General Mark Clark carried one similar to a 22
in two wars Generals get to carry whatever they want right?

Randall

[glassman]

Generals get to carry whatever they want right?

Patton carried two pearl handled colts if memory serves. The Dillon tool is a bit more than I wanted to spend but after looking at Brownells and a few other places, it was the only tool I could find that loaded and stripped in the same tool. If it holds up, it'll be worth it over time.

[BlindJustice]

Glassman - I do believe in spedning the dosh for a good tool go for it.

Uh, however, you need to watch Patton the movie again. George in real life and the movie was asked if the handles on his colts were MOther of pearl and he replied "only a pimp in New Orleans would have such, they're ivory" and it was one of many gaffs with the press.

Randall

[Jim K]

The .45 AR was originally intended to duplicate the ballistics of the .45 ACP, otherwise the sights of the M1917 revolvers would be off. I think now it is loaded a bit lighter.

One use for the .45 AR is to thin the rim from the front and make cases for the .455 Webley. But please load the round down for the old British revolvers.

Jim

[earplug]

Just stand on most any range and your can get ACP rounds. They last longer then most revolver rounds and are the designed round for 625's.
You might as well be shooting a 41 or 44 if you use a speedloader.

[BlindJustice]

The AUto RIm is nice for 225 & 250 grain lead wadcutters @ 900 fps
as I said I shoot the .45 ACP in my 625 to collect once fired brass where
I know where it came from and how mny times it's been fired

To each their own.

Randall

[glassman]

Here's a question that I should know the answer to but don't. What's the difference between ACP vs UMC vs AR?

[parisite]

I'd just like to find some 45AR brass for my 25-2.

[SharpsDressedMan]

I have a Webley MKVI converted to .45ACP. However, full .45 rounds are not really recommended in such an old gun chambered for a weaker round, so I use .45AR cases, and load them to Webley .455 level. That gives me a much stronger case, and I'm not using this gun for black bear hunting, so power levels can be lower. I still think my "weaker" loads would beat most SD cartridges being carried, so it is still a great house gun. Your right, the .45AR is under used and underrated, and so is the fine old Webley. I used to think it one of the UGLIEST of guns, but now all the levers, wings, and screws make it kind of interesting and unique. The trigger pull on mine is as good as most stock 1917 Smiths or Colts, too.

[.38 Special]

What's the difference between ACP vs UMC vs AR?

ACP: Automatic Cartridge Pistol. "ACP" is often used -- technically incorrectly -- to identify the cartridge it uses: the .45 Auto.

UMC: Union Metallic Cartridge. A maker of ammunition. "UMC" is a common headstamp on many cartridges.

AR: Auto Rim. A cartridge essentially identical to the .45 Auto but with a rim that allows it to be loaded and extracted in a revolver.

[.38 Special]

The Model 22 has lately become one of my favorite guns. We had a very rocky relationship at first, but we're becoming friendly. Mine has very limited headspace (It's been in for warranty repairs twice; they still haven't solved the problem) and the stupid EDM bore that collects lead like nobody's business.

The headspace problem requires moonclips to be absolutely flat. Anything more than .003 runout and case heads bind on the recoil shield. And none of the AR brass I've tried fits without causing binding so severe that you can't cycle the gun DA without turning the cylinder by hand. Dunno why S&W keeps sending the gun back that way. One of the early reviews online mentions the same problem.

The trouble with the AR brass doesn't bother me too much, though, because the primary use for it, IMO, is with cast bullets. Being as all the "classic" S&Ws I have with EDM bores pick up leading and NEVER let it go, I'm not going to fire any cast bullets with the M22.

None of that sounds too hot (does anyone else have these problems?) but with perfect moon clips and 230 FMJ the gun is extremely accurate and shoots exactly to POA with its fixed sights. With Eagle TruIvory Magna grips and a T-grip, recoil is easy enough to deal with, and with the excellent factory action job and chamfered charge holes, the trigger manages perfectly and reloads can be tossed in from a distance. I'm thinking of buying another one -- presumably with correct headspace -- for ivories and factory engraving!

[rcmodel]

I'd just like to find some 45AR brass for my 25-2. Remington stopped loading it some time ago.

New Starline or Remington brass is the only game in town now unless you buy new factory ammo from Cor-Bon, Black Hills, Double-Tap, or Buffalo Bore.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=7497&categoryString=9315***652***670***9014***

rc

[BlindJustice]

Remington used to market ammo under the Peters name as well as
Remington name, UMC is the same sort of company uh
United Metallic Cartridge or something - they have to make
ammo to SAAMI Spcis/dimensions is all

Starline unprimed brass cases

http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1&osCsid=9fd6b1b96b6f07001bf5fbf14363a14a

Starline Brass prices of
new unprimed cases per 500
-------------------------------------
.45 ACP = $ 78.75 = 15.75 cents cach
.45 ACP +P = $ 85.95
.400 CorBon = $ 101.55
.45 Auto RIm = $ 85.55 17.1 cents each
.45 Colt = $ 88.90


Randall

[20nickels]

.38 Special,
I'm sorry you are having problems with your 22. The EDM bore process shouldn't have anything to do with bore leading. If the boolit is properly sized for the barrel it should be fine. If anything I've found the EDM barrels to be "faster" and more precise than the older ones when the EDM equipment is properly maintained. I have gotton a bad EDM barrel, it was replaced, remember these days you are the QC inspector.

[20nickels]

The 45 AR is underrated much like the ACP is in modern pistols. No reason you can't load it to 45 Super levels and probably beyond in a modern revolver. The problem is finding load data. I did much reading on this a few years back and I'm of the opinion that there is no difference between 45 AR, ACP, ACP +P, or Rowland brass in a fully supported chamber such as the S&W 625. Be safe.

[logjam]

I have one of those S&W model 17 revolvers that take either a .45 or .45 auto rim. It has a lip inside the chambers so that you can load the .45 ACP without a half moon clip. You must drop them in, and pull them out with your finger nails.

You can load the auto rim cases with jacket ball rounds and the guns shoots as hard as the standard 1911. It's just a great gun and the .45 auto rim is easy to load and lots of fun to shoot and it's a great personal safety guns.

[BlindJustice]

Sorry to hear this about your Mod 22 .38 Special. I've had leading with
cast bullets in my 625 but it's a Leadhead 200 gr. SWC
at 1,025 FPS I do like the Model 22 seems they oughta be able to
position the cylinder correctly in relation to the rear face of the
frame I'm wondering if Hamilton Bowen could do something with
a front sight alternative to the round blade & sight it in for the
selected load.

The point of the original title of the thread is it seems to me
the .45 Auto RIm is as strong and essentially stronger at the base
in comparison to .45 ACP but AR is rated at 14000 - 16000
PSI and the ACP is 21000 PSI and +P 23000 PSI per
SAAMI spec yet they are fired in the same S&W N Frames.

Seems load data for AR should be taken with a grain of salt with regards to
the SAAMI pressures. IMHO

Randall

[jonnyc]

I use both .45 AR and ACP in my S&W 1917, but the AR very rarely...no real need for it. I load both the same, but the ACP on moonclips is just so much easier. I use plastic Rim-Z moonclips and don't know why anyone would ever use the steel ones.

[rcmodel]

don't know why anyone would ever use the steel onesSo the ammo don't all fall out in your pocket, or on the ground?

Rimz are great for range use, but if dependability & hard use are in the cards, you better go with steel clips.

rc

[ChristopherG]

I've loaded my 4" S&W 625, using Starline 45ar brass, with a 255 gr LSWC up to 1100 fps.

I find I prefer that bullet at 900 fps. It's a wonderful approximate replicant of the original .45 ('long') Colt load, with an improved bullet (LSWC over RNFP)

[Dr.Rob]

Maybe in a new S&W but no way I'm shooting +p rated Buffalo Bore loads in my 1917 Colt. I've loaded some hot-ish gas checked wadcutters (like a 200gr bullet at 1000 fps) but after a few hundred rounds of those I just decided the old Colt was better served shooting factory ball ammo or light loads.

I know the old RCBS books had some heap big 250 gr loads for 45 Auto Rim listed if I recall at 900 fps or so.

[.38 Special]

The EDM bore process shouldn't have anything to do with bore leading. If the boolit is properly sized for the barrel it should be fine.

The EDM doesn't cause leading but it prevents leading from being thoroughly removed. All the tiny little grooves inside the grooves prevent lead from being removed by any means I am familiar with. The only thing I have not tried are the chemical removers, as most of my "Classics" are nickel and I am afraid of damaging it.