Nonresident permits at 18 years old


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Banfield
July 3, 2009, 07:12 PM
Hi, I'm going to be turning 18 soon, and, living in Minnesota, that means I'll have to wait 3 more years to get a carry permit. However, I recently had a thought--some states allow you to get a carry permit at 18, which (I think, atleast) would allow you to carry in other states that honor that carry permit, even if the state you're travelling requires you to be 21 to get their permit.

My question is this--would it be possible for me to get a nonresident permit when I turn 18 from a state whose permit Minnesota honors, and thus be able to carry legally here at 18? The first state that I thought was a possibility was Indiana--atleast how I read it, they issue resident permits at 18, but you have to be employed there for a nonresident permit?

Maybe there's just no way around this and I'll just have to settle for carrying my Fairbairn-Sykes (which, as far as I can tell, is legal to carry concealed in Minnesota. Go figure.) until then--but if there's any way to avoid that 3 year wait, I'd like to use it.

Thanks!

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WeThePeople
July 3, 2009, 07:35 PM
From what state do you want to get your permit? Minnesota doesn't recognize permits from too many states. I also am not aware of any states that will issue a permit to someone who is aged under 18. I'd appreciate knowing if there are any that do.

For the most part, states to which I travel will not recognize non-resident permits that are held by a resident.

For instance, Florida will not recognize a non-resident out of state permit that is held by a Florida resident.

The reason being that if Florida doesn't want Florida residents carrying before they turn 21, then Florida residents cannot skirt the law by getting a permit from another state [again, I don't know of one that issues to under 21s], getting a permit, and then carrying in Florida.

Some states, and I believe Minnesota is one, will not recognize a permit from a state that doesn't have substantially similar rules as does Minnesota. I would think that 18 v. 21 would fall into that.
Jim

Banfield
July 3, 2009, 08:06 PM
That last paragraph pretty much confirmed what I thought--although I didn't mean to say that I wanted to get it when I was under 18, though there may have been a typo in my OP. I meant to say that I wanted to try to get it at 18, and there are certainly states that issue resident permits at 18. As far as states that issue permits to people under 18, I think New Hampshire technically doesn't have an age limit. And in Vermont you can carry at 16, but you can't really get issued a CCW because you don't need to have one there.

According to handgunlaw.us, Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming have atleast resident permits that allow you to carry in Minnesota as well (I initially read the data chart wrong, and thought that Minnesota recognizes Indiana's permit--it's the other way around. Indiana recognizes Minnesota). I don't think any of those allow CCW at 18, though, so there's probably no way to do it.

Extremely Pro Gun
July 4, 2009, 02:02 AM
Just carry a knife and pepper spray. In some states you can legally have a handgun in your home and vehicle at 18 because handgun "ownership" is legal at 18 and you dont need a CHL to do that. (purchase isn't however)

When I was 18-21 I had an SP101 357 in my console of my truck (still do BTW). And when I got an apartment I put a Colt 1911 on my nightstand. (My dad transfered me some of his guns legally)

NightStalkerTX
July 4, 2009, 09:58 AM
Texas will issue a CHL to a non-resident, 18-21 yr-old who is:

A member of the armed forces or national guard.
A former member of the armed forces or national guard who received an honorable discharge.


The downsides are a few:

Must take the CHL training class from a Texas-certified instructor
Currently long wait for license issue due to huge backlog


If you don't meet the military service requirements, then the Texas option isn't open to you.

This provision of the Texas law has been a bit controversial because it is causing some states with "substantial similarity" requirements for reciprocity to revoke revoke or not allow recognition of Texas permits.

NavyLCDR
July 4, 2009, 05:45 PM
Yes it is possible and legal. A fellow in South Carolina posted that he got a permit from a state that issued to 18 year olds which was not recognized by South Carolina. He then took that permit and mailed it to a second state that did not issue to <21 year olds, but DID issue to anyone with any other permit, and they issued him their CCW because he did have another state's permit. That permit was good in South Carolina. He took everything to his local LEO agency and asked them, and they said, "Yep, you are good to go!"

Prince Yamato
July 4, 2009, 07:11 PM
The short answer is yes, you can get a carry permit under 21. There was a post about a year ago about somebody who did this.

I have no qualms about 18 year old's carrying. That said, you are going to go through hell if you are stopped while carrying and are under 21. Even though what you're doing is legal, explaining it to an officer is going to be a pain and you might get hauled in for it. That said, you can't go to jail for doing something that is perfectly legal.

FlaChef
July 4, 2009, 08:12 PM
Prince Yamato,


That said, you SHOULDN'T go to jail for doing something that is perfectly legal.

fixed it.
to the OP
Just realize that even if you do find a leag way to do it you may still be hauled in by a cop who doesn't like someone trying to skirt the law. This view may also be held by a local DA and you could be in the position of being a precedent case!

Banfield
July 4, 2009, 08:21 PM
Extremely Pro Gun-I already do carry a knife (well, two--a ZDP-189 Endura and that Fairbairn-Sykes), and should probably look into getting some good pepper spray (Kimber Guardian angel, perhaps?). Thanks for the suggestions. Also, I, too, 'have' (technically my parents own it because I'm 17, but it sits on my nightstand) a .357 SP101 3''. Great midsized gun, but Minnesota doesn't consider your vehicle an extension of your home. It'd have to be cased and unloaded to (legally) carry it. I do generally carry a SOCOM-16 in the back of my car, though.

Nighstalker--Unfortunately I'm not planning on joining the military, but if I did, I see Texas would definitely be the way to go.

NavyLT-That's EXTREMELY interesting. Do you happen to have a link to the thread, or know which states he used?

Prince Yamato-I'd like to think I'm fairly prepared to deal with the 'going through hell' part of it--firstoff, I don't believe you have a duty to inform an officer who pulls you over that you're carrying in Minnesota, and, secondly, even if charges were brought up, most of the judges in the county I live in are pro-gun. Thanks for the warning, though.

FlaChef-Like I told Yamato, atleast where I live, I'm not too worried about that.

phorvick
July 4, 2009, 08:28 PM
You can get a ND Class 2 permit with only a simple written test. If you wanted to do that, you would want to do this before the end of July as the number of instructors and the locations of the test will likely diminish as ND law is changing 8-1-09.

If you are near the DetLks area (NW MN) you can do the written test from me...but, again, you would want to do this before 8-1, meaning you would need to turn 18 before that date also.

Banfield
July 4, 2009, 08:37 PM
Wait, are ND permits valid in MN? I didn't think they were, but I could easily be mistaken. Is there something special about the class 2? Well, regardless, I won't be turning 18 before 8-1 (I guess 'soon' was a bit of an exageration), but will it be impossible to obtain after 8-1, or just harder? That is, what exactly is changing?

Thanks.

NavyLCDR
July 4, 2009, 09:43 PM
Sorry, Banfield, it was about a year ago the thread was posted, and I don't even remember which forum it was on.

Banfield
July 4, 2009, 10:13 PM
No problem--I'll just go through the list of states whose permit Minnesota honors and see if there are any with similar rules.

phorvick
July 4, 2009, 10:35 PM
There is no legal way for an 18 yr old to carry in Minnesota. None. Zilch. Zip.

Further,I did read the thread regarding the ingenious 18yr old that claims to have received a permit valid in an otherwise 21+ State. I do not believe it. I do not buy it, and if it is true, I don't believe that his permit would be valid if push came to shove.

You follow the law of the State you are in (residing or travelling etc) and if that State says 21+, I do not believe you can get around this by some circuitous route.

MN does NOT honor a ND permit. Yet, a fair number of 18-20'ers do have a ND permit so that when they enter the other side of the Red River they might have that option.

The new Class 2 permit is exactly what they have right now as their "permit"...just a ten question test. The new Class 1 will have a class, test and range component. The hope is that more State will then honor a ND permit...perhaps even MN.

Don't hold your breath.

Once the new law kicks in there will be very very few instuctors. ND is going backwards under the guise of moving forward. They decided to fix something that was not broken.

Banfield
July 4, 2009, 10:51 PM
I'm beginning to think that South Carolina guy may not have been entirely truthful, too. The only state I've found whose permit South Carolina honors and doesn't have an explicit age requirement is Tennessee, and the law there reads:

If a person who is a resident of and handgun permit holder in another state is employed in this state
on a regular basis and desires to carry a handgun in this state, the person shall have six (6) months from the
last day of the sixth month of regular employment in this state to obtain a Tennessee handgun carry permit.
The permit may be issued based on the person having a permit from another state provided the other state has
substantially similar permit eligibility requirements as this state. However, if during the six-month period the
person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be
allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit.

And then there's this:

“employed in this state on a regular basis” means a person has
been gainfully employed in this state for at least thirty (30) hours a week for six (6) consecutive months not
counting any absence from employment caused by the employee's use of sick leave, annual leave,
administrative leave or compensatory time.

It looks like he'd have to be employed in Tennessee for a long while to get his there, after having gotten it in another state--and 'handgun permit holder in another state' sounds like you have to be a handgun permit holder in the state in which you reside. So I'm really not seeing a legal way for him to have done that, unless some law changed or something.

kurtmax
July 5, 2009, 01:35 AM
It depends on the state. Some states don't have 'substantially similar' wording.

I've had a permit in Alabama since before I was 21. I often carried in Georgia and Tennessee. Never in Florida or Texas though, since they have specific requirements even for out-of-state permits. Speaking of weird military enhancements: IIRC in Georgia you don't even need a permit to carry if you are in the military, and can even carry in more places than those with carry permits.

NavyLCDR
July 5, 2009, 05:45 PM
I think he was from South Carolina, but not sure. He got an out of state permit from a state that has a 21+ age requirement, HOWEVER, that state also issued permits to anyone who already had a permit from any other state. I believe him 100%, there's just a lot of folks out there that don't think 18+ is old enough for concealed carry.

Samgotit
July 5, 2009, 06:25 PM
What are the requirements for getting a permit to carry?

* Must be at least 21 years of age

The above combined with the below means it would not be valid:

Minnesota laws authorize individuals holding gun permits from the following states to carry in Minnesota:


Alaska
Arkansas
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan
Missouri
New Mexico
Nevada
Ohio
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Wyoming

Please note that the permit issued by your state does not supersede Minnesota’s laws or regulations. Legal conduct in your state may not be legal in Minnesota.


So, if you obtain a permit from another state, you still must be 21 for it to be valid in Minn.

Samgotit
July 5, 2009, 06:51 PM
I think he was from South Carolina, but not sure. He got an out of state permit from a state that has a 21+ age requirement, HOWEVER, that state also issued permits to anyone who already had a permit from any other state. I believe him 100%, there's just a lot of folks out there that don't think 18+ is old enough for concealed carry.

If the person was from SC, he is in the same situation as the OP. Permit or not, he's not abiding by the restrictions of SC law.

SECTION 23-31-215. Issuance of permits.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, except subject to subsection (B) of this section, SLED must issue a permit, which is no larger than three and one half inches by three inches in size, to carry a concealable weapon to a resident or qualified nonresident who is at least twenty one years of age and who is not prohibited by state law from possessing the weapon upon submission of:

Residents of reciprocal states who hold permits issued by their states of residence may carry concealed firearms in South Carolina, but must abide by the restrictions in the South Carolina CWP law. For that reason, out of state residents of reciprocal states should familiarize themselves with restricted carry locations and other provisions of South Carolina law posted on this website. .

Banfield
July 5, 2009, 07:41 PM
Oh well, I'll probably just get a ND permit when I turn 18 and an MN one when I turn 21. I'm out of state often enough for that to make sense.

NavyLCDR
July 5, 2009, 10:53 PM
Samgotit,

I believe your interpretations are incorrect. In MN and SC it could be interpreted that the 21+ age restriction for the permit is just that - an age restriction for the permit itself. In order for a MN or SC permit to be valid, it must be issued to a person age 21 or over. The age requirement is a restriction for the issuance of a valid permit, not an age requirement actually prohibiting carrying. The prohibitions on carrying would be prohibited places and any such statutes related to carrying the firearm, not the permit. If an 18 year old holds and out of state permit with reciprocity, and there is no specific prohibition for a <21 year old carrying separate from the CCW statutes, they should be OK to carry.

It is the same as training requirements. Not all states have the same training requirements and if MN or SC have more stringent training requirements than the permits they honor, you argument would also have to apply to training as well - the out of state permit holder must have the same training as required for the SC or MN permit.

Now, it would be different in a state such as Washington, because Washington has a completely separate law from the CPL requirements that prohibits <21 from carrying a handgun, except in very limited circumstances.

Here is what I am talking about:

In Washington, RCW 9.41.070 is the requirement for a CPL:
The applicant's constitutional right to bear arms shall not be denied, unless:
(c) He or she is under twenty-one years of age;

However, RCW 9.41.240 is the actual prohibition against carrying, separate from the CPL requirement law:
RCW 9.41.240
Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.
Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:
(1) In the person's place of abode;
(2) At the person's fixed place of business; or
(3) On real property under his or her control.

Unless such a separate prohibition exists in the SC or MN law, a <21 year old could carry on a valid out of state license with reciprocity, they just could not obtain a SC or MN permit.

phorvick
July 5, 2009, 11:07 PM
Unless such a separate prohibition exists in the SC or MN law, a <21 year old could carry on a valid out of state license with reciprocity, they just could not obtain a SC or MN permit.

1. IAAL
2. I live in MN
3. I cannot off the top of my head quote you the exact wording, but
4. an 18 yr old with a valid permit that MN honors (if such a thing exists) would mean diddly squat in MN. It would NOT be valid in MN.

mp510
July 5, 2009, 11:21 PM
I think he was from South Carolina, but not sure. He got an out of state permit from a state that has a 21+ age requirement, HOWEVER, that state also issued permits to anyone who already had a permit from any other state. I believe him 100%, there's just a lot of folks out there that don't think 18+ is old enough for concealed carry.
I believe he was from North Carolina not South Carolina. I too believe that through ambiguous wording in reciprocity agreements he was able to find a way to legally carry in that particular state. He claimed to have written confirmation from either the DA or AG's Office that he was legal. If it was criminal in his case- I'm sure they would have known.

Samgotit
July 5, 2009, 11:40 PM
I believe your interpretations are incorrect. In MN and SC it could be interpreted that the 21+ age restriction for the permit is just that - an age restriction for the permit itself. In order for a MN or SC permit to be valid, it must be issued to a person age 21 or over. The age requirement is a restriction for the issuance of a valid permit, not an age requirement actually prohibiting carrying. The prohibitions on carrying would be prohibited places and any such statutes related to carrying the firearm, not the permit. If an 18 year old holds and out of state permit with reciprocity, and there is no specific prohibition for a <21 year old carrying separate from the CCW statutes, they should be OK to carry.


Your argument is valid; however, I don't agree. But as you alluded to in the first sentence, it could be interpreted a different way. There's way too much at stake for the OP for either of us to do that, though. He, like the guy from NC, should contact his AG. That's the only way he can get assurances and clarifications between laws, restrictions, regulations and the like. What's most important to me in the case of MN, is the fact that the word regulation is used in the quote below. And I'd bet on the side of the argument that says 21 is a regulation.

Please note that the permit issued by your state does not supersede Minnesota’s laws or regulations

Now, whether a regulation carries the force of law is something that would be interesting to find out.

NavyLCDR
July 6, 2009, 12:20 AM
3. I cannot off the top of my head quote you the exact wording, but
4. an 18 yr old with a valid permit that MN honors (if such a thing exists) would mean diddly squat in MN. It would NOT be valid in MN.

The law according to phorvick! He who has the definitive, absolute answer! He who states fact, but has no citations to back it up.

The correct advice to the OP would be to obtain an AG opinion and not listen to NavyLT nor phorvick on the internet.

phorvick
July 6, 2009, 10:31 AM
The law according to phorvick! He who has the definitive, absolute answer! He who states fact, but has no citations to back it up.

The correct advice to the OP would be to obtain an AG opinion and not listen to NavyLT nor phorvick on the internet.
You are absolutely correct. Oh, try getting an AG opinion. You cannot. Oh, come on over to MN. Disregard the advice of an attorney that also has been teaching MN permit classes and the law for, oh, since the process started.

You cannot find a citation because none exists. There is no case law to the effect that a person with a valid permit issued in another State that is under 21 can legally carry in MN. Why? Because it is something that is an interesting intellectual exercise but that no one wants to be that test case.

Yes, opinions are like...well...you know. I have one...it is based upon years of experience and practice in law. However, to find out for sure, I suggest the 18-20 yr. old person try it here in MN. Let me know how that works out. If I am wrong, I'll fix up some well cooked crow. (Figuratively, not literally....maybe chicken instead. Tastier..I think.)

NavyLCDR
July 6, 2009, 02:04 PM
You cannot find a citation because none exists. There is no case law to the effect that a person with a valid permit issued in another State that is under 21 can legally carry in MN. Why? Because it is something that is an interesting intellectual exercise but that no one wants to be that test case.

Which is exactly why you cannot state, with authority, that it is illegal. An absence of a law actually makes an action legal, not illegal.

I don't have a problem with you stating an opinion. I just have a problem when that opinion is stated as a fact without the references to back it up.

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