Open vs. concealed carry


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21bubba
July 6, 2009, 01:27 AM
I really don't want to start a flame war, but i'm trying to understand why someone would want to carry (legally) open. It just seems to me that they would be asking for trouble.

I'm not for or against open carry, i just wouldn't want the hassle from the sheep or LEO.

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Kind of Blued
July 6, 2009, 01:40 AM
I don't do it very often, but here are some of the reasons why I and others open carry, whether people consider them real advantages or not.

Quicker access to gun
Easier to carry the bigger, more powerful gun that one shoots more accurately
Much more convenient in warm weather
Deterrent effect on would-be criminals
Demonstrable pride in one's freedom
Demonstrate to others that guns aren't just for cops and robbers
To educate the public, and sometimes the police, of the law, and our freedom

My favorite thing about living in an open carry state is that I can carry a 1911 OWB while wearing a T-shirt, and I don't have to worry about printing, partially exposing the end of the holster, or completely exposing the entire thing. It's all legal.

This thread will probably inevitably turn toward a number of cliched disadvantages which usually don't even amount to anecdotal evidence. I've always thought that our own member Mainsail addressed those issues very effectively with this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=371028).

FlyinBryan
July 6, 2009, 01:50 AM
i cant here in tx, but if i could i am sure i would from time to time for many of the reasons king gave.

i especially thought these were great.
Demonstrable pride in one's freedom

Demonstrate to others that guns aren't just for cops and robbers

To educate the public, and sometimes the police, of the law, and our freedom

WTBguns10kOK
July 6, 2009, 02:25 AM
Depends on where you are carrying. I openly carry in the woods because I don't think a bear, moose or bad person will care whether my gun is concealed or not. Never have had anyone make a problem about my gun, maybe someday though...

Rockwell1
July 6, 2009, 02:26 AM
This topic has been done to death there are at least a dozen 7&8 page threads on the topic. You might want to try a search.

jakemccoy
July 6, 2009, 02:34 AM
In my county of California, getting a CCW permit is basically impossible.

Open carry is legal without a permit.

chris in va
July 6, 2009, 02:48 AM
In states like AZ,CO,ID,MT,NM and VT,OC is common and generally accepted.

And KY.

dirt_j00
July 6, 2009, 10:30 AM
i'm trying to understand why someone would want to carry (legally) open.

For me, its a lot easier and more comfortable to carry outside my pants than to carry:

-inside my pants
-on my ankle
-near my crotch
-in a man-purse

Blackbeard
July 6, 2009, 10:35 AM
44 states allow OC at least technically,if not realistically.Only six states AR,FL,NY,OK,SC and TX outright forbid the practice.

Don't forget IL!

husbandofaromanian
July 6, 2009, 10:36 AM
Because I don't want to get in trouble because an aggressive LEO can see part of my pistol showing through the top of my pocket.

Yo Mama
July 6, 2009, 10:52 AM
In states like AZ,CO,ID,MT,NM and VT,OC is common and generally accepted.


Not as common as it used to be. CCW is the push lately.

Because I don't want to get in trouble because an aggressive LEO can see part of my pistol showing through the top of my pocket.


Please don't start cop bashing.

21bubba
July 6, 2009, 11:02 AM
Kind of blued ,thanks for the link.

Rockwell1, You're a wizard if you can find some specific topic with this search function.

hardluk1
July 6, 2009, 11:20 AM
It is one thing if you own a large tract of land and carry open or are hunting, but to carry in public if concealed is legal just does not make sents. To many nuts out there as is, leo's included, to take a chance on getting someone all excited and doing something that could change your life. If a bad guy see's your gun and he wants it he will take your life, just because it is there it could make you first on the bad guys hit list. If conceled you have the upper hand. Even on your own property a rifle in a tractor or truck would be of more use and as soon as it is legal to carry on forest land you still don't want to get all the tree huggers all fired up see'n some nut carry'n open. To many ways to carry with common sents and not offend the meek or the pissed off just because you can. I grew up in an area that went threw this. I have seen both sides and it did not work out well for the gun owners once the public had desided it had enough of open carry. Allways someone to test the new changes and end up in jail and then lossing his rights to carry at all. Today if in the right place at the wrong time someone could take you for a bad guy and just shoot first, happens all the time.

dirt_j00
July 6, 2009, 11:25 AM
Today if in the right place at the wrong time someone could take you for a bad guy and just shoot first, happens all the time.

Got a link?

Fumbler
July 6, 2009, 11:27 AM
I open carry only while hunting or if I'm on private land. People's perception of a gun on someone dressed in camo is ok and no one should be on our property either.
Otherwise it's concealed carry only. It's just easier if the sheeple don't see a gun.

texas bulldog
July 6, 2009, 11:46 AM
here we go...

i expect this will go about as well as the other threads on open carry. for some reason, there are lots of THR members who not only would never choose to OC personally, but seem to outright despise the idea of others doing so.

TexasRifleman
July 6, 2009, 11:50 AM
i expect this will go about as well as the other threads on open carry. for some reason, there are lots of THR members who not only would never choose to OC personally, but seem to outright despise the idea of others doing so.

There are a lot of THR members who are flat out anti gun they just can't bring themselves to admit it for some reason.

tju1973
July 6, 2009, 11:54 AM
I am for open carry for the reason that it is hot as heck in Texas and hard to conceal my XD45 wearing a tank and shorts...

Also, I would like to be able to carry without fear of being harrased or arrested for "showing"--

I have been vetted by the State to conceal a weapon-- the State thinks I am ok to carry a weapon, so why can't I just carry it how I please?

DUmb law, and a throwback to Reconstruction....

:fire:

crebralfix
July 6, 2009, 11:56 AM
1) Political statement with a group

2) Virginia law prohibits concealed carry in restaurants that serve alcohol.

3) Convenience

4) Crime deterrence


OC'ers suddenly getting shot doesn't happen...more bunk along the lines of Brady's "blood will run in the streets" statements regarding CCW.

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 11:56 AM
Open carry should be legal so if your shirt tail doesn't cover your gun completely, you don't get arrested. Concealed carry should be legal so if your shirt tail does cover your gun completely, you don't get arrested.

A classic example is Virginia -- the Virginia concealed carry law prohibits carrying in any establishment where alcohol is served. So if you take the family out for dinner to a restaurant that serves alcohol, you cannot carry concealed.

But open carry is legal in Virginia, and there is no prohibition against carrying openly in an establishment that serves alcohol. So a Virginian taking his family out to dinner simply removes his cover garment as he enters the restaurant and is perfectly legal.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 12:03 PM
Why do I OC?

It's ALWAYS more comfortable, if it's a real gun and/or I'm walking a few miles.
I don't care if someone doesn't like my gun.
I want to contribute to a OC raising few eyebrows -- the more people are used to it, the less it bothers anyone.
It's my right under the State Constitution, and a right unexercised is a right lost.
I'm doing something in the hills or mountains, or I'm on the way there. CC'ing a 686 or 629 is a REAL PITA, and defense against non-human attackers is my first priority anyway.
In tourist/resort areas where blissninnies hang out, I figure that a lot of OC will scare off the "wrong" people and make the "right" people want to stick around.

Why do I CC?

Tactical advantage. The element of surprise may keep me from HAVING to shoot someone.
Comfort/convenience. Pocket carry of a small gun is unobtrusive. I forget I have it, but I always know it's there.
Low hassle factor. I don't want to deal with having to explain myself in a business, or check my gun at the front counter, or similar. So I have a gun in my pocket and to hell with it.



In town, I usually conceal. As I wrote, for human attackers, the element of surprise matters to me. Pocket carry is comfortable and convenient for driving.

However, if I'm on the way to go hiking or something, I might have a holstered gun on my belt when I get gas in Boise. The only look I have gotten was a smile. Idaho has some very-pro-gun people wandering the streets.:)

If a cop gives me undue grief for what is well-known by the department to be perfectly legal, I'll enjoy suing the department. I'm not worried, though. The cops I've met here are some really wonderful people -- some REALLY positive experiences.

riverrat373
July 6, 2009, 12:08 PM
Since I have been on this forum I have noticed that there are more than a few people who seem to think that those who don't agree with them "are flat out anti gun they can't bring themselves to admit it for some reason." Tolerance for other people's opinions makes for a more united group.
By the way, I support open carry.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 12:42 PM
Tactical advantage. The element of surprise may keep me from HAVING to shoot someone.

I fail to see how having an object concealed and therefore unknown to the world around you keeps you from having to shoot someone. Exactly how does the element of surprise prevent you from having to shoot someone?

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 12:49 PM
Armed robbery situation.

If the robber sees the gun, you're the first target. Your only defensive option is to shoot first, if you're lucky enough to have the chance.

If only you know you have the gun, you can decide the when, where and what.

That said, I'd probably just shoot someone who was actually pointing a gun at innocents. In that case, the tactical advantage would allow me to shoot first. But again, it would be up to me to decide what the best action is.

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 12:50 PM
I fail to see how having an object concealed and therefore unknown to the world around you keeps you from having to shoot someone. Exactly how does the element of surprise prevent you from having to shoot someone?
You've got a point there. Deterrance is through the potential assailant knowing you are too dangerous to attack.

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 01:31 PM
Armed robbery situation.

If the robber sees the gun, you're the first target.
How do you know this to be true?

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:31 PM
Being shot in the back because an armed robber knows you're armed doesn't seem like a good plan.

I wasn't talking about a deterrent. The point is that you have the option of deterring an attack by pointing the gun at a potential attacker, or leaving the gun hidden and waiting for the best opportunity for defense.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 01:34 PM
Armed robbery situation.

If the robber sees the gun, you're the first target.

I think it could also be successfully argued that an armed robbery wouldn't occur if there was an armed person standing there.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:34 PM
How do you know this to be true?

I don't know it from experience.

I do, however, find my sources trustworthy (longtime cops, one with extensive military covert ops experience in Southeast Asia -- his simply being ALIVE is enough evidence that he knows a bit about tactics).

Deanimator
July 6, 2009, 01:35 PM
Open carry used to be REQUIRED when driving in Ohio.

Do what you want that's legal.

If you ask Chuck Schumer, OWNING a gun is "asking for trouble", nevermind carrying one, nevermind how.

I'm not interested in people's "feelings" about legal activities, only what's not prohibited by law.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:36 PM
I think it could also be successfully argued that an armed robbery wouldn't occur if there was an armed person standing there.

I'm not interested in arguments about hypothetical bull****, though.

The fact is, armed robberies and other attacks happen when there are armed people standing there.

How many haven't happened? Who knows. It's not my job to lower the crime rate. It's my job to raise my life expectancy.

Like I said, I OC. I just think there are times and places where CC can be preferable, from a personal standpoint.

Rockwell1
July 6, 2009, 01:38 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=451724&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450833&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=447987&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=448276&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=448202&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=343109&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=440645&highlight=open+carry+oc
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421841&highlight=open+carry+oc

And here’s a link to the 16 pages compromising 394 threads dealing with this subject

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=6218045&pp=25&page=2

But, hey you go ahead because I'm sure you have something new to add to the debate.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 01:39 PM
I'm not interested in arguments about hypothetical bull****, though.

Oh, sorry, when I saw what you were basing you choices on I thought we were all talking in hypotheticals.

Rockwell1
July 6, 2009, 01:48 PM
If the robber sees the gun, you're the first target.

How do you know this to be true?

Vern, why are you surprised? go back through that list of threads I posted, this comes up every time someone posts this debate ( as opposed to using SEARCH)

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 01:51 PM
I don't know it from experience.

Do you have any data about how often this happens, if it happens at all?

I do, however, find my sources trustworthy (longtime cops, one with extensive military covert ops experience in Southeast Asia -- his simply being ALIVE is enough evidence that he knows a bit about tactics).
I have extensive experinence in Southeast Asia -- and I can't remember any armed robberies there where armed civilians were shot. We were mostly in military combat there.
I'm not interested in arguments about hypothetical bull****, though.
Absent any real evidence, the proposition that a robber will shoot an openly-armed citizen first is hypothetical.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:55 PM
Oh, sorry, when I saw what you were basing you choices on I thought we were all talking in hypotheticals.

I said "arguments" which was the word you used.

The FACT is that armed robberies occur when there are armed people standing around. The FACT is that a highly-publicized incident occurred a few weeks ago where there were armed men standing around, and one of them was the first victim and the only fatality. Maybe you heard about it? http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j73mOCpZWfIdWfRPB_a8VSi7z-0Q

OC acting as a deterrent is hypothetical. Armed people being shot by armed attackers is a fact.

Rockwell1, not sure what those threads are good for, but welcome to my Ignore List.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 01:57 PM
ArmedBear, that wasn't an armed robbery.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:58 PM
the proposition that a robber will shoot an openly-armed citizen first is hypothetical.

American Rifleman, a few months ago. Can't find the cite right now, and have things to do.

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
The FACT is that armed robberies occur when there are armed people standing around. The FACT is that a highly-publicized incident occurred a few weeks ago where there were armed men standing around, and one of them was the first victim and the only fatality. Maybe you heard about it?
The FACT is that anecdotal evidence is just that -- not reliable enough to trust your life on. How many robberies have been deterred by obviously armed men?

And why, if the robbers always shoot the armed men, do security companies used armed guards? Why are police not only openly armed, but uniformed, too? Why don't we trip over the bodies of dead cops as we walk down the street?

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
ArmedBear, that wasn't an armed robbery.

You're right.

I'm not one to care about the motivations behind a flying bullet, though.

Is it safe to assume that armed robbers are rational actors?

General Geoff
July 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
No, in fact armed robbers are anything BUT rational.

Rational (adj) - consistent with or based on or using reason; "rational behavior"; "a process of rational inference"; "rational thought"

Armed robbers use FORCE, not reason.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
You're setting up straw men. We're talking about this, this is this, it isn't that.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 02:00 PM
How many robberies have been deterred by obviously armed men?

I don't know. Neither do you.

I'll keep my gun concealed when I think it's a better choice. Go ahead and carry yours openly at all times.

If that's a deterrent, it will help me anyway. If not, you'll get shot first and I'll have time to draw and fire.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 02:01 PM
You're setting up straw men.

No I'm not.

Your assumption is that an armed robber will act differently. I don't think one can assume that.

Again, do what you all want.

I OC, probably more than most around here. This is hardly an anti-OC post.:rolleyes:

Corporal K
July 6, 2009, 02:06 PM
OC is certainly more convenient but as far as being tactically "better" for civilians, I doubt there's hard evidence to prove it.

HKUSP45C
July 6, 2009, 02:06 PM
I never made the assumption that you were anti OC I was merely trying to point out that the logic you're using may be flawed. In fact, I never even said you were wrong, just that you lacked evidence to support your opinion.

Since it's really more of a religious ideology we're discussing there's nothing wrong with admitting your decisions are based entirely on arbitrary critea that are logically indefensible.

I know mine are.

Both sides of the debate have a dearth of usable information so it really does come down to "this is how I feel."

I just wish more people would admit it.

NavyLCDR
July 6, 2009, 02:13 PM
NavyLT takes another bite of popcorn and continues to watch the show...

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 02:15 PM
I don't know. Neither do you.
Actually, there is plenty of evidence that armed citizens deter crime. Now, being openly armed is being armed, is it not? And absent any evidence that legions of armed robbers are shooting down hordes of armed guards, cops and openly armed citzens, there is no point in fearing open carry.

I'll keep my gun concealed when I think it's a better choice. Go ahead and carry yours openly at all times.

That's fine. Do as you choose, but don't give ammunition to those who would limit the rights of others to do as they choose.

ezypikns
July 6, 2009, 02:25 PM
I carry concealed for two reasons:

1. I don't want ANYONE to know I'm armed.

2. The laws of the state I live in forbid open carry.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Rockwell1
July 6, 2009, 02:40 PM
one with extensive military covert ops experience in Southeast Asia -- his simply being ALIVE is enough evidence that he knows a bit about tactics

And he's now the Lieutenant of a three man rapid tactical force at one of America's largest indoor retail centers, where he stands guard over the shoppers lives like a GAWD?

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 03:07 PM
Do whatever you want/can.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I carry concealed for two reasons:

1. I don't want ANYONE to know I'm armed.

2. The laws of the state I live in forbid open carry.

Seems pretty simple to me.
But I support legalized open carry, in case my coat or shirt tail rides up.

mljdeckard
July 6, 2009, 03:10 PM
Mostly no. I carry open when I am out in the wilderness, which happens more often lately. (This is a good thing.) The other night I got home from playing out in the desert and my wife asked me to run to Taco Bell, so I jumped straight in the car and did, I still had my 1911 on my belt, but it didn't matter since I never got out of the car.

I am in support of boldy and proactively exercising rights in general, but there is a practical limit. Utah's gun laws are on possibly the most positive trend in America right now, and the last thing I want to do is to remind all the hemp-wearing bleeding hearts in Salt Lake City that they forgot to notice when we passed the last couple of rounds of positive gun laws. There are guys in there way too concerned about other issues who don't have time to worry about gun laws, and I don't want to give them a reason to.

I could be walking down 400 South in Salt Lake past the coffee shops with the 1911 in the open, waiting for the light to change, and the white guy with dreadlocks and the Bob Marley t-shirt might ask me; "Hey man, why you gotta pack heat here?"

"Why not? It's legal, constitutional, and common sense."

"Dude, you guys with the guns are going to kill someone!"

"That is highly unlikely, but thank you for your concern."

Then he sees an editorial in the City Weekly about how Utah has become a savage territory with all the gun laws, and that a state senator is introducing legislation similar (but improved) to Montana's proposal to manufacture and keep automatic weapons within the state, keeping them out of the federal interstate commerce clause. There will be a protest at the capital or Liberty Park or somewhere that they all congregate. He wasn't going to go, but NOW, he has a reason to. HE has been awakened the same way I HAVE in the last 15 years. Someone who wouldn't normally care is now paying attention.

I DON'T WANT HIM TO. I want him to stay asleep, and not even know what Utah's gun laws are. What HE doesn't know won't hurt ME. To pretend there are no negative consequences to carrying open is disingenuous.

General Geoff
July 6, 2009, 03:44 PM
I DON'T WANT HIM TO. I want him to stay asleep, and not even know what Utah's gun laws are. What HE doesn't know won't hurt ME. To pretend there are no negative consequences to carrying open is disingenuous.

You are of the opinion that keeping people ignorant is best. I would counter that keeping people ignorant is what got us this deep in the first place.

You can't just half-educate people though, you have to set the entire record straight. Only when one sees the whole picture, does one see the puzzle for the portrait it creates.

Vern Humphrey
July 6, 2009, 03:52 PM
You are of the opinion that keeping people ignorant is best. I would counter that keeping people ignorant is what got us this deep in the first place.

You can't just half-educate people though, you have to set the entire record straight. Only when one sees the whole picture, does one see the puzzle for the portrait it creates.
Not so long ago, there was an anti-gun campaign with the theme, "There are states that have laws that say the police can't stop people from carrying guns!!" Apparently that campaign hasn't gained any traction because too many people live in states with shall-issue laws and know nothing bad has occurred as a result.

Educating the public through experience is a tried-and-proven way to break down anti-gun bias. The more experience the public has with honest citizens carrying guns, the less likely they are to be taken in by antis preying on the ignorant.

mljdeckard
July 6, 2009, 04:33 PM
I disagree. The lack of activism and attention on OUR part is what got us the 1994 ban. I absolutely think we should use the opposition's complacency against THEM. I see no reason to jiggle sleeping bottles of soda.

Bob R
July 6, 2009, 05:50 PM
<<<<<< Sitting on the couch with NavyLT

http://kristaolmstead.com/albums/d/3668-1/Popcorn.gif?g2_GALLERYSID=844ce0de1c90d2aca74d8bd1e25f21e8

bob

ezypikns
July 6, 2009, 06:08 PM
educate whenever or whoever you may.

You can't just half-educate people though, you have to set the entire record straight.

I made the serious decision to carry a firearm in public to protect myself and those dear to me.

If by doing so, I make a statement for the RKBA, that's all to the good.


But I reiterate: That is NOT why I made the choice.

riverrat373
July 6, 2009, 06:37 PM
You know, if we all spent as much time writing our representatives in congress as we do arguing amongst ourselves, we could probably eliminate half the gun laws on the books!

ezypikns
July 6, 2009, 06:45 PM
indeed.


You know, if we all spent as much time writing our representatives in congress as we do arguing amongst ourselves, we could probably eliminate half the gun laws on the books!

Kleanbore
July 6, 2009, 06:50 PM
Where I live open carry is not permitted, and an awful lot of the populace would repeal the concealed carry law if they could. I believe that if open carry were lawful and practiced it just might push us past the tipping point and result in the loss of all carry privileges.

That would not be the case everywhere, of course.

It seems to me that common sense would tell us that many perps will choose someone else as a target if they see someone carrying a gun.

Again using common sense, it seems to that other perps may see a possible opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one. The man with the gun will probably be rather alert to this possibility, however, and if not, he sure as heck should be.

Where the man with the gun is likely more vulnerable, again relying on common sense, is in the rare instance of his unwittingly walking into the stop and rob, bank, etc. during the commission of an armed robbery. Think about it--a very desperate, frightened man or two with gun in hand, possibly under the influence of more than adrenaline, suddenly sees a man who could end it all for him right there. Think about it. Doesn't common sense say that there's a pretty good chance that he would shoot?

That's a pretty serious risk, but a more likely one, in my view, involves the man who has just been seen carrying openly, and who is then observed heading from his vehicle into an establishment in which firearms are not allowed.

Any guesses on where a really good place to obtain a gun might be?

Frankly, I have enough concern about people breaking into my car without making them an offer they cannot refuse.

I carry concealed. I would like the option of being able to move my shirt aside in a casual, non threatening manner should the need for simple deterrence materialize. Seems to me that that could diffuse a problem before it becomes one. Can't do that now.

kda
July 6, 2009, 07:22 PM
Not as common as it used to be. CCW is the push lately.


I'm from AZ and I agree ... Open carry is not as common as I expected. I think I read that we had 125,000 folks with current CCW permits in AZ. I saw the age breakdown too and was surprised at how many "seniors' are taking the class, going to the range to qualify, passing the tests and earning their permits. And the percentage of mature adults doing so in on the rise. They show up at the range and practice too. Lots of folks appear to be tired of being a victim.

The few times I've seen an AZ "citizen" with an 'open carry', no one actually paid any attention to them ... or at least there was no negative attention. Those who noticed most often just pointed out the person carrying to their wife / husband or friends in their group. Then everyone went on about their business.

I rather wish more folks would open carry. But perhaps if they did, some of the retail outlets that tolerate CCW and very limited open carry would begin to fear that a store full of armed customers would turn off "sensitive" customers and even drive them way. At that point the retail stores could post signs "No Firearms Allowed on the Premises." and then those who carry would have to go back to their vehicle and lose the weapon, or slip into CCW mode and do their shopping.

In AZ, if a business post such a sign, you are expected to comply or be at risk of "trespass". But if you are CCW (and not open carry) ... then when while you are still technically trespassing the risk of consequences quite small. And you don't have to leave a weapon out in a blazing hot vehicle.

ArmedBear
July 6, 2009, 07:30 PM
Both sides of the debate have a dearth of usable information so it really does come down to "this is how I feel."


I'm sorry. I didn't elaborate.

Allow me to, please.:)

Do I think that a potential robber SEEING a person with a gun could be a deterrent? Definitely.

Do I think that he will just shoot someone carrying openly and proceed with the robbery that he had planned? No, I don't.

Do I think that would-be robbers see a uniformed cop or guard and put off their crime for another place and day? There's no question. That could be as much about the uniform as the gun, but either way, I'm certain it's a deterrent.

Do I think that an armed robber walking into a crowded fast food joint, nervous and maybe hopped up on speed will see my gun in the crowd BEFORE he pulls out his and tries to rob the place?

(This scenario is from a news report in American Rifleman's Armed Citizen section, I did not invent it. Armed robbers do try to rob Burger King -- and they're the STUPIDEST robbers, too, no doubt.)

No, I don't think he'll necessarily see the gun on my hip BEFORE he starts the robbery.

And there's the rub. If he doesn't see it early on, it can't possibly be a deterrent.

If he sees the gun once the robbery is in progress, a nervous robber might well open fire at me, and in a crowd of innocent people, before I ever get a chance to draw it. THAT is when I'd be a target. Question that if you want, but that's the scenario where I'd become a target in my opinion.

If my gun is hidden in my pocket holster, I can decide if and when I'd shoot, and draw without attracting undue attention. This could well save lives: mine and the innocent bystanders. I want the tactical advantage to be MINE, not the robbers.

So, in crowded places, I am far more likely to conceal.

Elsewhere, I do think my gun would be a deterrent more than a danger. Maybe I'm wrong about that, too.

My point is just this: OC might well be a deterrent, but ONLY if a would-be criminal sees the gun BEFORE he decides to commit the crime.

NavyLCDR
July 6, 2009, 07:51 PM
<<<<<< Sitting on the couch with NavyLT

http://kristaolmstead.com/albums/d/3668-1/Popcorn.gif?g2_GALLERYSID=844ce0de1c90d2aca74d8bd1e25f21e8

Can I have some of yours? I ran out!

22-rimfire
July 6, 2009, 10:54 PM
If open carry was more accepted, I might well carry one on my belt (police style). It's a lot more comfortable to carry in a belt holster unconcealed. More than likely, it would be semi-concealed. In the woods, I usually have one in a belt holster as I don't expect to see anyone that doesn't have a gun with them.

SpotlightRanger
July 6, 2009, 11:12 PM
I don't mean to start a flame war....

hmmm... but it seems that is what has almost happened. This seems quite an emotional topic. I wonder if there is any meaningful data to back up the emotional positions of various posters.

21bubba
July 7, 2009, 12:37 AM
I want to apologize to most of the posters to this tread. I really didn't want to start a $$$$ storm, i was just curious. no more, no less.

Some very passionate opinions have been voiced, but there has also been a fair amount of B.S. I suppose that is to be expected.

Since it seems that this thread is only going to start going around in circles i'm asking the mod's to please close it. Thanks for all the constructive opinions.

Rockwell1
July 7, 2009, 12:50 AM
Since it seems that this thread is only going to start going around in circles i'm asking the mod's to please close it. Thanks for all the constructive opinions.


Smartest post in the thread :D

Seriously, this would be a good debate to have but whenever it comes up it's the same arguments rehashed over and over and over and over and over and over again.

NavyLCDR
July 7, 2009, 01:09 AM
"Hi. My name is John, and I open carry."

"Hi John."

jeepmor
July 7, 2009, 01:41 AM
I can't be talking guns out in front of the grocery store, the sporting goods store or the grainge all day. I have errands to run, so I go CCW.

Heck, I talked to a fellow enthusiast for darn near an hour since both of us were buying ammo.

blah blah, gun, blah blah, subsonic, blah blah silenced, blah blah...me drooling and listening to the gunsmith I stumbled into. Blah, blah blah, over my head that one, way over... blah....I was late back from lunch. :) Worth every minute, nice to meet a like minded guy and leave all grins.

You know, if we all spent as much time writing our representatives in congress as we do arguing amongst ourselves, we could probably eliminate half the gun laws on the books!

Been watching the laws the past decade or so, we have been changing them. I particularly like the ability to carry in a National Park riding on credit card legislation. Think that happened because the gun crowd can't get it done?

hometheaterman
July 7, 2009, 01:45 AM
I don't really mind if someone open carries nor so I mind if they carry concealed or don't even carry at all. It's their choice. If I don't like it I don't have to be around them. They shouldn't have to change what they are doing as long as it's legal just because others don't like it.

As far as to why would you open carry? Here you can't legally carry concealed in any restaurant that serves alcohol. However, you can open carry. So instead of going unarmed some just open carry.

You also can start open carrying here at the age of 18. However, you have to be 21 to apply for a concealed handgun permit. So That's 3 years that someone may open carry. I don't think they should have to go unarmed with the right to defend themselves just because they aren't 21 yet. If they want to open carry I have no issues with it as long as they are responsible about it.

There are plenty of reasons like that as to why someone may open carry. They may just not have a concealed permit and may be waiting on it. Or they may not have a good holster to carry concealed and not feeling like wearing a heavy jacket in the 100 degree heat so that it's concealed. There could be a ton of reasons. I see no problem with open or concealed carrying as long as it's legal in your jurisdiction.

ChCx2744
July 7, 2009, 02:54 AM
I prefer concealed carry for the world we live in today.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2009, 10:33 AM
Again using common sense, it seems to that other perps may see a possible opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one. The man with the gun will probably be rather alert to this possibility, however, and if not, he sure as heck should be.
Once again, police not only carry openly, but also wear uniforms so they're easy to spot.

So if perps see an opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one, why are the streets not littered with dead cops?

moooose102
July 7, 2009, 10:58 AM
other than from the "gustoppo" police, i do not see any "trouble" happening from open carrying. it would take a big set of kahuna's to walk up to a person with a gun and try to take it from him. i am sure it has happened, but i do not see it happening very often. i have no problem with open carry. personally, i would like to see more of it.

christcorp
July 7, 2009, 01:33 PM
I open carry sometimes out of convenience. Usually when in the woods, hunting, or working around the ranch. Many people carry openly in these situations and it's not uncommon to see someone in town open carrying on their way to the hardware store to pick up supplies or a similar errand that they are on. It is not common to see someone in a suit or normal office type worker walking down the street open carrying. That's usually an ego thing and someone trying to look cool. Not that it's against the law; it's not; just that it's not normal in the day to day activities. Sort of like it's NORMAL to wear a bikini at the beach, but seeing the same girl in a bikini down town walking around just wouldn't be normal. Legal? Yes. Normal? No. But our state has a very high amount, compared to other states, of concealed carry permits.

Do I prefer concealed carry more than open? In town, not in transit from working outdoors or other outdoor activities; yes I prefer concealed. If the law said ONLY open and NO concealed, then criminals would know exactly who had a defensive weapon and who didn't. If the law said ONLY concealed and NO open carry; then the entire population POTENTIALLY could be carrying, so criminals have to be a lot more selective. However; such a law would be a big inconvenience for those who carry a gun, but because of the activity they are currently doing, a concealed weapon is a PITA. Having a law that says YES open carry and YES concealed carry is best for everyone. However; at least our city/state/culture where I live uses practical and common sense approaches. I truly do not know one person from around here that when you ask; "Why do you carry" (Open or concealed); EVER says: "Because it's my right" or "Because I'm allowed to" or some other similar ego answer. Usually, if the subject came up, the answer would be more in the line of: "For protection against moron criminals" or "Against coyotes on the ranch" or Other defensive purposes. And that's exactly what a gun is supposed to be used for (When it comes to carrying it). And maybe that's why we don't have a lot of open carrying in situations that just don't seem normal. I guess that's why we don't have a lot of women wearing bikinis when walking down town. Open carry when it's practical. Concealed carry when it is more practical. Pretty common sense.

dirt_j00
July 7, 2009, 01:36 PM
It only took four pages for the topless/bikini argument to arise.

christcorp
July 7, 2009, 02:12 PM
I think it's appropriate. There's those that because it's "Their Right", that carrying openly at any time is appropriate. Legally, yes. But socially, there's a lot of things we don't do when it's not appropriate. And when I'm at a formal dinner, in a suit or tux, I don't open carry. I conceal carry. When I am doing administrative office work, I don't open carry; I conceal carry. When I am on a day off and shopping at the mall or down town, I don't open carry; I conceal carry. However, when I am working on the property I open carry. When I forgot some parts and have to drive over to lowes, home depot, or Capital Lumber, I open carry. When I'm out and about in nature, I open carry.

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. I think it's a matter of culture and social appropriateness. New York City is not the same as Cheyenne Wyoming. Chicago or Miami is not the same as Boise Idaho. Some people will open carry because they aren't allowed to conceal. Some people will open carry because "It's their Right" and they want to make a statement. Some people will open carry because it's what's convenient at the time. Me personally; I'll carry whichever way is the most convenient or appropriate at the time. And I'll take my HAT OFF when I go to a restaurant even though there are some that will wear their hat. (They legally can). And when I go to a formal dinner, I'll wear a suit, even though I can "Legally" and I have the "Right" to wear jeans. I personally don't feel coerced or intimidated into carrying concealed instead of openly. I recognize that different people have different opinions. And where I live, no one thinks twice if you're grungy and walking into the lumber store with an open carry gun. Or at the mini-mart filling the truck up with gas. But walking into a business office and seeing a person walking around with an open carry immediately (At least around here) presents the question of: "What are you trying to prove". Then again, concealed carry permits are easy to get and open carry is very common. Just that there are certain times when one is more appropriate over the other.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2009, 02:14 PM
I truly do not know one person from around here that when you ask; "Why do you carry" (Open or concealed); EVER says: "Because it's my right" or "Because I'm allowed to" or some other similar ego answer.
Is voting an ego activity?

Why do you vote?

Kleanbore
July 7, 2009, 02:16 PM
Once again, police not only carry openly, but also wear uniforms so they're easy to spot. So if perps see an opportunity to obtain a gun from someone they see carrying one, why are the streets not littered with dead cops?

I don't know how things are deep in the Ozarks, but in the large metro area around here, even the dumbest perp knows that his immediate concerns (that's probably just about all of his concerns) would not be the same if he and a buddy were to grab gun from Mr. Citizen and run than they would be if they were to assault a policeman. The latter makes them public enemy number one, with every patrolman in every nearby community on the lookout, and they know it. I have friends who have heard the scanner chatter when a policeman is attacked. Sounds like Sept 11 all over again.

And, of course, the policeman has training, a club, a taser, cuffs, a radio, and in most cases a backup gun.

Might be younger and obviously better fit, too.

And by the way, when the police around here are off duty, they do not carry openly. Some whom I know say that they would not if they could, one reason being that they would be targets for robbery, and the other being their risk should they interrupt a crime in progress.

Is gun theft a big risk for the armed citizen? I don't know. Probably not in Mountain Home, but it probably would be in a Metro station in DC.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2009, 02:29 PM
I don't know how things are deep in the Ozarks, but in the large metro area around here, even the dumbest perp knows that his immediate concerns (that's probably just about all of his concerns) would not be the same if he and a buddy were to grab gun from Mr. Citizen and run than they would be if they were to assault a policeman.
How do you know that's true?

What data source do you have that tells you that's how criminals think, and that thinking of future consequences deters them from crime, and not the simple fact that the policeman is armed?

Kleanbore
July 7, 2009, 07:02 PM
How do you know that's true?

What data source do you have that tells you that's how criminals think, and that thinking of future consequences deters them from crime, and not the simple fact that the policeman is armed?

Excellent question!

What I know is that in the several cases I am familiar with involving violence against police officers--a guy in a stolen car running over an officer's foot, a couple of men hitting an officer on foot with his car, men deliberately shooting police officers--the flight behavior (car jackings, very high speed chases, hostage taking, high volume gunfire) of the perps in all cases has appeared much more desperate than in the several armed robberies and kidnappings and murders of civilians. Not too many data points to be sure (less than half a dozen of each in the last few years), but the pattern appears unmistakeable.

I think one can conclude that the perp immediately understands that he is in most desperate straights when he has run over or shot an officer. Did he have an inkling before hand? My guess is yes.

Is that the only deterrence? I doubt it.

There is the gun, but there's also the training, a club, a taser, cuffs, a radio, and the likely physical presence of a bigger, tougher person.

A man I know who teaches criminology (retired police officer) tells me that people who are six feet five inches tall probably don't need to carry. He tells me that perps will generally try to avoid attacking policemen because of the fear of brining all of the rest of the cops in the county down on them. And he thinks that carrying openly is a bad idea for anyone out of uniform, but understand that his perspective is that of an officer in a populous area.

hardluk1
July 7, 2009, 07:31 PM
Did anyone see a story a while back on a california watch repair shop owner over 3 years shot and killed 6 people if i can remember. he started by setting guns around behind the counter for quick use and then carry'n openly after being robbed. After the first robbery ended in a killing and him getting shot in the the neck he started to carry. Did that stop the robberies?? NO was robbed again ,killed another robber and was shot twice, neck and shoulder. Sometime later after a recovery he was ,, robbed again by two people ,another gun fight and he killed both men and was shot agin in the neck... He closed the store and now works out of his home by internet only. Darn crack heads don't care if your carry'n open or not they are going to do what there gon'a do. Being a business owner does make him a fixed target and he knows he is lucky that none of those 4 bullets that hit him did not kill him but he did say it made him a target to kill and not just rob by that time. How many leo's do you know that carry open off duty? Real question..I don't know any in FL or NC. But heck if your area is good to go with oc go for it. I have carried for 26 years and allways concealed and will continue even if legal to carry open exect when pistol hunting. Now if deer get to be legal to hunt in town and allow pistols to shoot deer there??? Vern even the stupid know that one shot cop typical brings others out of there hiddy holes to shoot many many rounds. We can't do that with out problems in the open. They do have the law on there side too.haha

21bubba
July 7, 2009, 07:44 PM
19 hours ago i asked the mods to please close this ( my) thread. In the meantime i have seen this degenerate into a case of who can type faster and use bigger words to dispute the oppositions side of things. Good job guys.

christcorp
July 7, 2009, 08:03 PM
Is voting an ego activity?

Why do you vote?

Why do I vote? So I can either elect a person who will represent me on issues that thinks along the lines I do; or if voting on a particular issue, to represent myself on which way I prefer my government performs.

Is voting a right? Yes. Is keeping and bearing arms a right? Yes. But that isn't the REASON I do either. The "RIGHT" is simply the power given to me to do such a thing. If doing something simply because it was my "Right"; then you could walk into the voting booth and not even look at the ballot. Simply vote "A" or the "First Choice" on everything. This way you can say "I VOTED... BECAUSE IT"S MY RIGHT". I personally vote because I want certain things changed. Also; if I ONLY KEPT AND BARED arms because it was "My Right"; then I wouldn't even have to have ammunition. Or, if I did, it would only be symbolic. Instead; I carry a gun for safety and/or self defense. And if I feel that the area that I'm going, doesn't pose any substantial risk of my safety or life; then some times I don't carry a gun there. Then again, there are places in our country where your safety/life are at risk 24/7. Luckily I moved away from those places. (I lived in those places and know them well).

Some people buy a shirt/jacket because they are trying to make a "Fashion Statement". Some people buy the same shirt/jacket because "They Simply Like it". I recently bought a corduroy jacket that my kids and wife asked; "WHY DID YOU BUY THAT". They were obviously concerned what OTHERS might think. I simply said that I bought it because "I Liked It". And I will wear it at certain events if I think it wears appropriately. I wouldn't wear it to a funeral or wedding; not appropriate. But I would wear it to an informal dinner; friend's bar-b-que, etc...

I'm not saying a person can't carry a gun for the simple reason that it's "Their Right". They can. It's their RIGHT to exercise their RIGHTS. I simply have PURPOSE for everything I do. I wear the clothes I do because I like them; NOT to make a fashion statement. I speak my mind on subjects to get my opinion expressed, create dialog, and possibly instill change/growth in myself and others. NOT simply because it's my RIGHT. I have the RIGHT according to the 1st amendment to sit in the corner and BABEL to myself. But that would have no purpose. I read the bible and/or go to church because I BELIEVE in God and want a closer relationship with him. NOT because I have the Right to. I guess that is actually a really good example. If I was an atheist and didn't believe in God; and all of a sudden one day the Right to worship ANY RELIGION was granted to me; I wouldn't just start going to church the next day because it was "My RIGHT". If I didn't believe in God, it would be a silly thing to do. (And I live in Spain for quite a few years, and until only recently, the only acknowledged religion was catholicism. So I know what a NEW Right can mean). Anyway; I don't carry a gun openly or concealed because it's MY RIGHT. I carry a gun because it's a TOOL, and I use that tool for safety and defense. And if there are times I don't need that particular tool, I don't use it. The RIGHT simply means I have that PARTICULAR TOOL as an option and am not limited to only OTHER tools.

Guess it's all a matter of perspective. In wyoming, guns are tools. 85% of the population has one or more. They are carried concealed as well as openly. There are "SOME" people that carry it to make a statement and because it's "Their Right". But most people here carry them with a purpose. And the need or purpose can change depending on the situation. And the style of carrying or at all changes with the appropriateness of our surroundings. Most of us don't just CARRY it ,,,,,, to CARRY it,,,,,, because it's OUR RIGHT. A hammer is a tool, but I don't carry it everywhere I go IN CASE I have a Nail to hammer into a piece of wood. But if I'm going some place where it could be needed, I'll bring my tool box. Again, I think it's just a matter of perspective. I don't think there's anything all that great and fantastic about a gun. I've been shooting them my entire life. It's not a passion or obsession. It's simply a tool. I definitely APPRECIATE and CHERISH the fact that our founding fathers fought to include Rights so that I am not limited to how I can protect myself or increase my safety. And I appreciate that the 2nd amendment is a great tool for us to have so we can PROTECT the rest of our rights from a Dictatorship government. But my fellow citizens in my town, neighborhood, etc... are NOT THE GOVERNMENT. I will cooperate with them. I know what's appropriate and what isn't. The government; as an entity however; is a different subject. I took an oath to protect and defend the constitution, and I will do so. The GOVERNMENT is not going to take away any rights we have without a fight. But my neighbors aren't the government. They are part of "WE THE PEOPLE".

ArfinGreebly
July 7, 2009, 10:40 PM
Gracious, is this thing still on?

Coulda sworn I turned it off before I left the house . . .

Don't tell anyone, okay?

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