So - you choose NOT to carry .. anyone? Why?


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P95Carry
October 22, 2003, 04:03 PM
OK, you are legal age and over - you are NICS clean ... you are in a state that is ''shall'' or ''may'' issue, you are not stuck living in an anti gun household, you have at least one gun and shoot recreationally. But you don't carry - ever.

I know a large number of us DO carry ... but it's maybe unfair to assume that all do, who can.

If you are in the described category ...... of 'can' but 'don't' - be interested to know your rationale. Not looking to belittle anyone, so don't read this wrong.:)

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Z_Infidel
October 22, 2003, 04:48 PM
I fully support concealed carry and I hope someday Ohioans will have a good CCW law. But if that ever happens I will most likely never, or very rarely carry a gun for defense.

The reason for this is that the parameters for a situation where having a concealed gun would be advantageous to me are so narrow that I probably wouldn't consider it worth the trouble. My profession does not necessitate use of a gun and in the event of an attack against my person I can resort to "other means" of defense much more quickly than I can bring a handgun to bear - especially from concealment. Granted, I can imagine situations where being armed might make the difference - but that kind of scenario is a real long-shot.

I do open carry in some situations - handguns as well as long guns. I also practice often with guns that could potentially be used for defense. So you see, I have no moral or ethical problem with the concept.

Wedge
October 22, 2003, 05:05 PM
My life goes like this:

Wake up
Go to work - at a education facility
Go home
Go to sleep

I don't want to get expelled and arrested all in the same day.

Headless Thompson Gunner
October 22, 2003, 05:10 PM
I generally don't carry (a firearm) even though I have a permit and all the rest.

Why not? Simply because I'm not as skilled with a handgun as I am with other weapons. I ALWAYS have at least two knives on me, and usually three or four. If I'm feeling particularly paranoid or vulnerable I'll add an Asp. I have a good deal of skill in stick and/or knife fighting. I'm much more confident with those weapons than I am with my sidearm.

I've noticed that a lot of shooters tend to believe that a gun is the only viable option for self defence. A gun is a formidable weapon indeed, but it is certainly not the only formidable weapon out there. Have you ever seen a trained Fillippino knife fighter in action? I have, and I wouldn't want to go up against him no matter what I was armed with.

I guess it comes down to skill and training more than hardware.

Jammer Six
October 22, 2003, 05:33 PM
If you are in the described category ...... of 'can' but 'don't' - be interested to know your rationale. Not looking to belittle anyone, so don't read this wrong.

I am. A permit, two weapons, assorted holsters, etc. Legal, capable, equipped.

I don't carry when I don't carry for the same reason that I do carry when I do carry.

I carry because I want to, and I don't carry when I don't want to.

Dorrin79
October 22, 2003, 05:42 PM
I don't carry :) because I don't have a CHL yet.

Why not?

Haven't made the time to go kill a Saturday taking the course. I'm a lazy procrastinator, I know...

I have made plans to go take The Class this November, as a berfday present to myself.

I hope that once I do get my CHL I will carry regularly... I think it will be easy in the winter to do so (concealed under jacket) but not so much in the summer (Texas is frickin HOT). I'll need, at the very least, a smaller pistol for summer carry than my 1911 (currently my #1 contender for Carry Piece once I do get my CHL)

sjtalon
October 22, 2003, 05:56 PM
For those of you who DON'T think you need to carry,at a given time I ask:

DO YOU WEAR A SEAT BELT ??

If you can predict your day or safety level during it, (you and others) why wear a seat belt. Do you make your family and kids belt up?

I'm not trying to jam carrying down your throat, just giving the view a take.

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." --Ted Nugent



Keep Safe !!

Steve

Michigan

manwithoutahome
October 22, 2003, 06:11 PM
When I first got my permit (GA, Active Duty Military), I rarely carried because I had to go on the Base to work and was too lazy to get there early, goto the armorery, turn in the gun and then reverse at end of day.

Now, even though my workplace is "no weapons", as a civiy, I don't have armed gates and SP's along the way to my work place. I no longer work in a building that could only be accessed via a code lock. So, I now carry 16/7.

I carry for the same reason I wear a seat belt (no, not because they tell me too), have a fire extinguisher in my car and truck as well as four in the house, have a carbon monoxide as well as fire alarms/detectors in my home; I hope that I never need them but you never know when you will need them.

The worse excuse that I've ever heard from a person with a permit but never carried was "I don't like having the gun on me all day. It's uncomforable, heavy, and not worth it". He was a little guy trying to carry a full sized P85 in a cheap holster.

He got mugged at the Valdosta Mall parking lot and got the living crap beat out of him.

He found a nice carry gun and a nice holster after that and carrying became a second nature to him. He would yell at me if I "forgot" to arm because I just happened to be in a hurry :D.

M

Jammer Six
October 22, 2003, 06:28 PM
I'm not trying to jam carrying down your throat, just giving the view a take.

That's funny. It certainly sounds like that's exactly what you're trying to do.

One of the differences between me and the antis is that it's OK with me if they don't believe the same way I do.

Turns out that that same difference exists between me and several people here, and several people at the range.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Brian Dale
October 22, 2003, 09:37 PM
I work at home, with my shotguns available. Previously, I worked in companies that prohibited firearms on their premises and had parking lots where my actions (securing a handgun in the trunk) would have been visible. But those are excuses, in my case.

Now, when I go out, it's often to places where NC prohibits carry: restaurants (alcohol is served there, so I can't carry even if I don't drink); places where admission is charged (the State Fair, theaters and the like); the bank or the post office; also to places where the owners have posted signs. In essence, I'm mooching off the people around me who do carry.

The fundamental reason is that I haven't practiced enough with a pistol to be confident in my skills. That's a problem I can solve, and I'm headed that direction.

sjtalon
October 22, 2003, 10:28 PM
Jamming the Jammer

Sorry what it should have read is THE VIEW I TAKE.

This is only MY opinion, and like having a fire exstiguisher or a pcket knife........... ya just never know !!


Not a "gunslinger", just feel the need to be prepared.


Steve

Standing Wolf
October 23, 2003, 12:12 AM
I don't carry around the house because there's at least one gun in every room. Heck, I even found on in the laundry room about a week ago.

cz75bdneos22
October 23, 2003, 12:20 AM
i don't carry....Cuz I AM the weapon!!!:neener:

Skunkabilly
October 23, 2003, 12:49 AM
I went jogging with my Beretta in a Safepacker today. It sucked. I want my :cuss: holster :(

Majic
October 23, 2003, 12:52 AM
I'm licensed, able, and equiped, but rarely carry these days. Once it was whenever possible, but over time it became less and less.

P.S. Most wear seat belts because it's usually the law. They were installed in cars in 1968, but very rarely anyone used them till laws mandated them.

Neal Bloom
October 23, 2003, 01:09 AM
Haven't found the combination where I am physically comfortable and it is fully concealable. Carry is prohibited at work.

fourdeuce82d
October 23, 2003, 01:20 AM
Interesting thread, and intersting responses. I'm certainly not a Ninja/Delta/SEAL Team Six kind of guy, but I shoot a fair amount (twothree times a week, ~ 150 rounds each time) have gone to two "gunslinger" classes... I carry 24/7

part of the reason is that I live in Houston, and we have a pretty significatn crime rate.

Biggest reason is because I had an AD when trying to remove my holster (IWB front side carry) that put a bullet through my groin, down and out the back of my leg.

Figured I should either not carry at all, ever...or I should carry every damn day and get it right. I now carry IWB behind the strongside hip, pretty much all the time.

I guess it's like a lot of things- whatever we get accustomed to seems "normal"...if we're not accustomed to it it seems weird/dangerous etc.

I do believe that if you think you might want to get a CHL "just in case" make a point of carrying all the damn time for the first month or so. carry enough that it doesn't seem uncomfortable, practice your presentation...and get training from a "name" school.

"Course then again, working on your situational awareness, and running away when things look sketchy are good ideas as well! *grin*

Jammer Six
October 23, 2003, 01:29 AM
P.S. Most wear seat belts because it's usually the law. They were installed in cars in 1968, but very rarely anyone used them till laws mandated them.

Not to mention that you're at least a thousand times more likely to be involved in an auto accident as you are to need a weapon...

wundergore
October 23, 2003, 09:11 AM
I don't carry; I'm fully able to get the permit (no legal reasons keeping me from it). But, I have a ferocious temper at times; and I know it. Carrying a firearm would most likely cause more problems that it would solve.

W<

Z_Infidel
October 23, 2003, 10:20 AM
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." --Ted Nugent

I like Ted, but that comment should not be used as a blanket condemnation of those who choose not to carry. I will probably never carry on a regular basis, but people who know me would not likely characterize me as a person who accepts defenselessness, is unnatural, cheap, or cowardly.

As far as I'm concerned if you tell me you carry because it is your legal right and because you want to, that is good enough for me -- you don't have to justify it to me. And if a time comes when it is legal and I discern a need to carry a gun, then I will do so.

MoNsTeR
October 23, 2003, 10:53 AM
I don't carry because the costs outweigh the benefits. To wit:

I attend classes and work on a college campus, which recently banned the carrying of firearms in response to Colorado's new shall-issue law. (I'm sure the fact that some sheriffs issued permits on a discretionary basis before the new law, and that holders of those permits probably carried on campus without their knowledge and without incident, never crossed their minds. But I digress.) So that's roughly 7am to 3:30pm every weekday that I'm either in my car or on campus.

Of the remaining time, most is spent at home.

Most of the time that's spent away from home is spent going to friends' homes, to the grocery store or mall, or to the range :D .

None of these occasions make me feel unsafe enough to think to myself, "I'd feel a lot better if I had a gun on me." Now, that would be moot, and I would carry anyway "just in case," except carrying is a huge PITA. Carrying IWB just is NOT comfortable, and carrying OWB just is NOT concealable. I know that's not "true" because no one here seems to agree, but it's sure as hell true for me. There's always pocket carry, but I don't own any pocket guns, and the previous paragraphs should hint at why I'm not running out to buy one.

And on top of all of that, I'm moving to another state in a few months' time, so paying $150 for a permit seems a poor investment.

P95Carry
October 23, 2003, 10:59 AM
which recently banned the carrying of firearms in response to Colorado's new shall-issue law. That somehow - seems a real oxymoron!! New shall-issue .... coupled with a ban ....... anachronistic seemingly.

Thanks for the numerous responses ....... a lot of candid and measured comments . :)

Jonesy9
October 23, 2003, 11:45 AM
my kid is getting old enough to notice and be curious and when I do get to go out I like to have a few cocktails with the boys. it's legal to carry here in bars but I usually get a buzz and that's not legal. :)



soooo, I guess I'd rather partake than carry.

M58
October 23, 2003, 04:50 PM
Carried for 30 years due to job.
Quit carring off-duty after 2nd year.
Newness wears off pretty fast.

It really is a bother in a bikini.:D

RUT
October 23, 2003, 05:00 PM
Sometimes I do... sometimes I don't.......

Jammer Six
October 23, 2003, 05:48 PM
quote:
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." --Ted Nugent


I like Ted, but that comment should not be used as a blanket condemnation of those who choose not to carry. I will probably never carry on a regular basis, but people who know me would not likely characterize me as a person who accepts defenselessness, is unnatural, cheap, or cowardly.



In my experience, people don't discriminate between the weapon that I own and the weapon that Ted owns. To most people, we are both "gun nuts", simply because we both own guns.

This comment is exactly the kind of comment that gets me labeled a gun nut, in spite of the fact that there isn't a single facet of common ground between this comment an my beliefs.

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about Ted's comment, not yours, Z.

manwithoutahome
October 23, 2003, 08:42 PM
I think that Ted was saying that you have the tools and the body to go out into the world and help others as well as youself from harm or maybe death. To turn your eyes from that responsibility as a member of the Human race is an act of shame and cowardness.

I have nothing against people who don't like to carry, don't want to carry, or even hate guns and don't wish to be around them (that is their Right). As long as you have some form or way to protect yourself and others, that is what counts. Even though a firearm is the most effective tool that you can carry and use in order to take this responsibility, for some. For others, they may feel that a blade or their hands will do them better.

The only people that I find pathetic are the ones who depend upon others (able body/minded adults, not those who are infirm or those who can't protect themselves, like children) to protect them.

M

CZ-100
October 23, 2003, 08:46 PM
Cause IM Scared of Guns... and the Police will protect me! :what:

YodaVader
October 23, 2003, 11:05 PM
I know a large number of us DO carry ... but it's maybe unfair to assume that all do, who can.

Yeah , that is correct. Like we, as gun owners, are under some moral obligation to protect the World from evil - what a crock! To carry a gun on myself everywhere I went would be a nuisance I simply have no desire to deal with. I like guns , attend gun shows regularly , I shoot many thousands of rounds every year. Those who do carry I have no problem with - it is your right and I respect that. At the gun club when a member shows his carry piece I have no problems looking their gun over. Also, never had a member there berate me for not carrying a gun.

What gets me is that some of these guys are so badly out of shape that they should be more concerned about cardiac arrest than shooting it out with the bad guys! The odds of shooting it out with the bad guys are far , far less as compared to expiring from a heart attack.

Bottom line - it's my right to carry or not to carry a firearm. I guess this statement from a previous post best states my personal opinion :

I will most likely never, or very rarely carry a gun for defense.

The reason for this is that the parameters for a situation where having a concealed gun would be advantageous to me are so narrow that I probably wouldn't consider it worth the trouble.

P95Carry
October 23, 2003, 11:14 PM
Agreed Yoda ... YOUR right .. never any prob with that at all.moral obligation to protect the World from evil - what a crock! Only thing I'd add ... and this ain't a criticism .. no way .. those of us who do carry have the thought that ...... no-one, but no-one, is gonna protect us - 'cept us!

Not the cops (certainly not the cops!) ...... and I guess we regard it as our duty - to ourselves (and loved ones of course).

I'd sure not be claiming to be ''protecting the world from evil'' ... oh no .. this is keeping #1's skin intact!!:D

Stay safe.:)

marauder220
October 23, 2003, 11:35 PM
I generally carry a sidearm, usually two, pending where I'm going. My life tends to take me into the more unsavory areas of my surroundings. My girlfriend lives in what could best be described as a "ghetto". I've had my fair share of run-ins with local "thugs" and have always walked away, regardless of whether a firearm played into it or not. I also work in law enforcement (non-uniformed) and carry 2 Glock 23's when on the job. Off duty I tend to go toward the Sig P220's. At one point in my life I always had a firearm with me, but it was in the center consol of my vehicle. One day when I dropped my girl off changed that for me, when I was left defending against a car-jacker with my emerson folder and nothing else. Since then, I ALWAYS have a sidearm (usually the P220 off duty). And it has saved my butt on 3 different occasions where otherwise I would have only had a fixed blade or folding knife if my changing had not changed. The 3 instances could not have been solved with a knife. Aside from that, I am also required at times to respond to work directly from my residence, and have been authorized a Remington 870 for take-home. That rides in my back seat with 50rnds of assorted ammo. After my life-experiences, I wouldn't have it any other way.

abaddon
October 24, 2003, 03:22 AM
I'm a college student and it's illegal in Washington State to carry on University property. If it was a bad area of town I would probably carry anyway, but it's actually one of the best areas of town. For me (for now at least) the possible benefits just do not outweight the possible costs.

Jammer Six
October 24, 2003, 04:45 AM
The only people that I find pathetic are the ones who depend upon others (able body/minded adults, not those who are infirm or those who can't protect themselves, like children) to protect them.


Sounds good to me.

I'm a coward. I'm pathetic.

You, therefore, are going to have to take point, and protect us both. You chase the bad guy, you shoot it out with him, and you take the medals. In fact, I'll give you mine.

I'll be hiding quietly under the table. :what:

On an entirely different issue, if, in spite of your courage, valor, wit and skill, you don't come back, can I have your lunch?

antediluvianist
October 24, 2003, 09:24 AM
I don't carry a gun for the same reason that I I don't carry a grenade; it's overkill.

If somebody assaults me verbally I do the same to him. If he hits me I do the same to him (until people pull us apart). If he picked up a stick or a rock, so would I. Can he pull a gun on me? Yeah , it's possible, but it's a long shot, and to cover that possibility it is a good idea to carry a gun?

I'm in a bank and armed robbers stage a bank robbery, well I just lie there and don't try to act like John Wayne.

If people really want to protect themselves, and others (who asked them ?), why don't they stay in shape and learn martial arts first, rather than immediately jump to the lethality of a gun? Ted Nugent thinks non-carriers are cowards. Maybe people who rely on a gun are.

Brian Dale
October 24, 2003, 09:50 AM
Oh, Beforetheflood: -- Pssst ... got Nomex? ;)

P95Carry
October 24, 2003, 10:11 AM
but it's a long shot, and to cover that possibility it is a good idea to carry a gun? For almost everyone carrying .. it is indeed a long shot ..... but the possibility always exists. It is perhaps the 1,000,000:1 long shot that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time .... rest of the time, sure .. it ain't needed. But without sooth-saying skills .. that cannot be known ahead of time.

Defending to save your skin, against armed attack is not IMO ''John Wayne'' ...... in fact the majority of carry people admit to being more likely to avoid trouble than ever look for it ...... and probably also choose to make an escape if practicable. Being armed breeds manners and collectively is proven to be a more than significant deterant against armed crime.

No one ''jumps to the lethality of a gun'' ..... just the bad guys perhaps.! It is being able to answer potential threat on equal terms. The choice of some point on the ''lethality scale'' below that of firearm is to be effectively disadvantaged ..... not a situation that can be reversed at the last moment IF presented with the ultimate threat to your life.

Maybe the one day you are lying on the floor, in a bank, store ..... whilst two BG's commit a robbery ..... you are told to stay very still and not be a hero ..... you comply thinking all will be well - no ''John Wayne'' tricks for you! But someone else decides to ''try it on'' because they are martial arts trained ..... but cannot quite beat the speed of a BG's gun . Bammm! ..... he gets hit. BG's now aggitated and getting pi$$ed ... see you and others there as threats also .... and potential witnesses ... best to cap everyone ..... kill three or four? No worse for them than one.

Myth? Not really - all too possible ..... if remotely so. That one time when an ''equalizer'' just might have saved your skin.

Not trying to effect any ''conversion'' here .. just making a few points.:)

semf
October 24, 2003, 02:13 PM
I don't carry on my person often but I always have 2 in my truck, except when I work the airport. Glove box carry is lgal in Fla so a CCW is not really needed for that. If I feel unduly threatened or am going to be too far away from my truck, which is not often I slip a bug in my pocket, CCW is needed for that, or Wal-Mart (I am always amazed at the strange collection of people at Wal-Mart)

Gordon Fink
October 24, 2003, 04:55 PM
If people really want to protect themselves … why don’t they … learn martial arts first, rather than immediately jump to the lethality of a gun? … Maybe people who rely on a gun are [cowards].

Spoken like a true “martial artist.”

~G. Fink

ARperson
October 24, 2003, 06:53 PM
I'll bet if you ask every victim out there what they thought the chances of them actually becoming a victim were, they would have said a "long shot." Also bet they wish they would have had the capability and knowledge to change the outcome.

Whatever the reasons for not carrying are, the "It's not likely to happen to me" argument has got to have the least merit. None, actually. That's not a choice not to carry, that's bury your head in the sand and avoiding the possibility.

MoNsTeR
October 25, 2003, 07:12 PM
Actually, I've already been a victim once. That episode definitely enters my calculation when I consider whether to carry or not.
Whatever the reasons for not carrying are, the "It's not likely to happen to me" argument has got to have the least merit. None, actually. That's not a choice not to carry, that's bury your head in the sand and avoiding the possibility.
That's just flat-out false. The fact that you're extremely unlikely to win is a pretty damned good argument not to play the lottery. That the choice to not carry is "gambling with your life" instead of your money makes no difference in the logic of the choice.

Hazwaste
October 25, 2003, 07:36 PM
When I don't carry it is because it's either because of restrictions of law or restrictions of my employer. In either case, I keep it in the car, which really bugs me since it is then vulnerable to theft.

ARperson
October 25, 2003, 08:39 PM
That's just flat-out false. The fact that you're extremely unlikely to win is a pretty damned good argument not to play the lottery. That the choice to not carry is "gambling with your life" instead of your money makes no difference in the logic of the choice.

Guess it's a matter of opinion, then because I think it's true.

The problem with your analogy, on the otherhand, is that if the odds are stacked against you when you play the lottery, and you're wrong, it's a good thing. But when the odds are stacked for you when you don't carry and you're wrong, you're dead.

So, yeah, there is a difference in the logic of the choice.

Who the hell puts their life on the line based on odds? :rolleyes: It only takes once for the odds to be wrong and then where are ya?

Gerald McDonald
October 25, 2003, 09:07 PM
Who gives a ????, its none of my business if someone carrys or not. I dont make a habit of telling other people how they should conduct theirselves.

Jammer Six
October 26, 2003, 01:50 AM
That's just flat-out false. The fact that you're extremely unlikely to win is a pretty damned good argument not to play the lottery. That the choice to not carry is "gambling with your life" instead of your money makes no difference in the logic of the choice.

Oh, I wish I'd said that... :(

Gabe
October 26, 2003, 05:45 AM
If you're supposed to be prepared for all contingencies all the time, why not carry with you the jaws of life, a defibrillator set, asthma spray, insulin shots, paramedic scissors, a tourniquet. All of which are just as likely to save people's lives. Gunshot wounds is not the primary cause of death in America afterall.

It's a cost-benefit analysis, you alone know if you need to or not.

telewinz
October 26, 2003, 10:25 AM
Most people who carry ONLY because "it's my right" IMHO are accidents or lawsuits waiting to happen. For some reason unclear to me many who CCW feel the need to brag the fact to their friends, who are they trying to impress and what personal shortcomings are they trying to cover-up? The good news is that most people of this sort grow tired of their "toy" and leave it at home in short order.

Course they could be casting for the lead part in the movie "Death Wish" since Charles Bronson died.:neener:

Kentucky Rifle
October 26, 2003, 11:02 AM
I "used" to carry only one weapon. However, over the years on The Firing Line and The High Road, I've been influenced. We're both 6 footers and then some. I began to carry a primary and a back-up. In the winter, I carry another weapon or two. (More pockets.) Even a couple of knives. The world we live in, and all. If I go down, I'm going down swinging. And THAT is the name of THAT tune.

KR

doctorhumbert
October 26, 2003, 01:11 PM
Well, I love guns and own several handguns and rifles including an 'assault rifle'.

I used to CCW, but I stopped doing so since I moved out of business that dealt with dangerous part of the neighborhood.
I am armed when I am home, and I feel I am in 'safe enviroment' 99.95% of the time when away from home. When that .05 chance of danger does occur, I try to avoid to be confrontational.

Chris Rhines
October 26, 2003, 01:28 PM
The main reason that I carry (when I did carry, that is) is that I enjoy it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Although it's none of my business how other people conduct their lives, I don't think that it is very smart to carry 'some of the time.' The psychological effect of carrying a deadly weapon on an on-and-off basis is to "only carry when you think you need to." From there, it's a very short step to taking stupid risks while carrying (like stopping at the ghetto stop-and-rob for a quart of milk at 11:00pm.) Not a great idea. Either don't carry at all, or carry all the time.

Also, if you have a concealed weapons permit and you don't carry, you do realize that you've just registered yourself with the authorities, right? Lot of trouble to got to for no benefit...

- Chris

Mastrogiacomo
October 26, 2003, 02:11 PM
Can't carry unless my job allows me to bring a sidearm to work (armed security). Wish to Hell I could though and would carry everywhere allowed by law. I'm also trained in martial arts -- Cynthia Rothrock wanna be...:D ...but as comfortable as I am with my martial arts knowledge, a kick or punch won't do anything to a really large man carrying a gun.... my Beretta makes us even. :cool:

Majic
October 26, 2003, 06:19 PM
Also, if you have a concealed weapons permit and you don't carry, you do realize that you've just registered yourself with the authorities, right? Lot of trouble to got to for no benefit...

I never considered it trouble getting my CCW.
Purchase your handgun thru a FFL and you have created a document that the authorities can have access to also. So what's the big deal?
I've done both and the benefit is that I can carry when I choose to without creating trouble.
The only ones who really need to worry about me carrying are the ones comtemplating on the idea of causing me phsical harm.

Chris Rhines
October 26, 2003, 06:37 PM
Purchase your handgun thru a FFL and you have created a document that the authorities can have access to also. So what's the big deal? Well, yeah. That's one very good reason to avoid buying guns from FFLs...

- Chris

Sven
October 26, 2003, 06:45 PM
I live in the Bay Area of CA - I choose not to carry because I do not have a permit, and getting caught with a gun would mean either:

a) misdeameanor, or
b) felony

...decision of the judge. Option 'b' means: no guns for a long, long time.

Majic
October 26, 2003, 07:17 PM
Well, yeah. That's one very good reason to avoid buying guns from FFLs...

Not going thru a FFL will most likely severly limit the models of handguns you can purchase, but seeing that you are a Marylander you are limited anyway.

Dilettante
October 26, 2003, 07:24 PM
In a car, I wear a seat belt, but not a crash helmet. On a bicycle, I wear a light helmet that's good enough for bicycling--not for motorbiking.
Whenever I take up motorbiking, I'll get a motorcycle helmet.

For many years I've lived in places with very low crime. I've never been mugged or even witnessed a real fight.

I am now learning and training because I may move to an area where there is more reason to carry.

MoNsTeR
October 26, 2003, 08:34 PM
So, yeah, there is a difference in the logic of the choice.
NO, there is NOT. Whether your betting your life or your money, the calculation is the same: do the costs exceed the benefits?
Who the hell puts their life on the line based on odds?
You take risks with your life every day. Even wearing a seatbelt and driving a car with a dozen airbags, your chances in a single day of being killed on your morning commute are greater than the chances over your whole lifetime of needing your gun (assuming you don't live next to a crackhouse). It's not even possible, let alone desirable, to eliminate all risks. Standing on a stool to change a lightbulb is risky. Skiing is risky. Eating a rare steak is risky. Not going to the doctor when you get the flu is risky. What really matters is the "size" of the risk (probability * magnitude of event) relative to the cost of mitigating it.

Whether it's worth carrying a gun to mitigate the risk of being a victim of violence is an individual choice. That means the individual weighs their perception of the risk against their perception of the cost of avoiding or mitigating it. The fact that those perceptions are inherently subjective means that the choice that arises from them cannot be objectively criticized, it can neither be right nor wrong. It may come to pass that an individual regrets their choice ex post but that does not in any way show that their choice was "wrong" ex ante.

I don't care whether you (the plural "you") carry or not, it's your choice and I'll respect it, because I have no grounds on which to criticize it; it is rational by definition. All I ask is the same respect for my own choice(s).

mountainclmbr
October 26, 2003, 11:22 PM
If someone doesn't want to CCW..or wear seatbelts...doesn't matter to me.

Years ago I heard a commotion outside my apartment door. I looked out through the peephole and saw a creepy skinhead, but thought he was visiting the college students across the hall. I got my gun from the bedroom just in case. As I walked out of the bedroom the front door was busted in and this creep was charging straight for me. He changed his mind really quick when I got my revolver out of the case.

I had two other cases over a 20 year period where I had a gun and had situations where I could act decisively and with confidence. One was a group of motorcycles with gang-like riders blocking the road. A car jacking had happened in this same place a month earlier. I floored it and they scattered. I got my 44 mag out of my shooting bag in the seat next to me. They chased mefor a while, but Mr Darwin was looking out for them when they decided to turn around.

The second case was on a clear Sunday afternoon when I stopped by my banks ATM. A car pulled out of an adjacent gas station and pulled up between me and my car in the handicapped spot. The car is full of gang-clothed youths thar are argueing "you giddim, no you giddim". I had a colt ponylite 380 in my pocket. I grabbed my money and ATM card, had my hand on my gun and walked briskly past the front of their car and got in my car. They pealed out of the parking lot when I was in my car.

Confidence allows you to act boldly.

This is three times in 20 years for me. People can rationalize not carrying, but Mr Darwin will have a knowing grin.

Z_Infidel
October 27, 2003, 11:19 AM
QUOTE:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people really want to protect themselves … why don’t they … learn martial arts first, rather than immediately jump to the lethality of a gun? … Maybe people who rely on a gun are [cowards].
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Spoken like a true “martial artist.”
END QUOTE

What point are you making here? That all martial artists are ignorant or ideallistic when it comes to the lethality of deadly weapons?

I have trained in martial arts for many many years. Thankfully there have only been a couple times when I have had to rely on that training in a violent situation. I tend to avoid when possible.

People with well-rounded martial skills will know they are not invincible against guns and other deadly weapons. They also know that unless you have specialized training it is very difficult to defend against someone armed with a gun or a knife. Proper training can increase your odds, but it really boils down to the individual, the type and amount of training, and each individual situation. There are never any guarantees.

In a very up-close confrontation, I would rather face a gun than a blade in the hands of a skilled knife fighter. I don't want to have to face either.

I don't consider a person a coward who relies on a gun for protection. That would be an unfair generalization, much like the comment about martial artists I quoted above.

Gordon Fink
October 27, 2003, 12:39 PM
People with well-rounded martial skills will know they are not invincible against guns and other deadly weapons. They also know that unless you have specialized training it is very difficult to defend against someone armed with a gun or a knife.

This was precisely my point.

The idea that someone should merely “take some martial arts” for self-defense is dangerously naive. Well-trained martial artists know this, but non-practitioners and, worse yet, beginners often seem to think that even a little training in unarmed combat will allow them to defeat an armed attacker.

~G. Fink

CZ52GUY
October 28, 2003, 08:02 PM
...the pulpit pounding and cynicism by some notwithstanding.

I had my CCW several years ago, I let it expire when I moved.

I went through a period of "idealism".

9/11 changed that.

Bottom line, Risk quantified = probability * consequence

Is the risk that my 235lbs OR 3000lb SUV will not resolve the risks me and mine are likely to face greater than...

...the risks associated with registering my gun ownership with local LEO (something that does not yet happen automatically in my state when a FFL purchase is made) and the consequences of using a firearm to protect my family outside the confines of my own property AND the risks that actually using my piece in public, even if only as a deterrent would actually create more trouble for me than it would solve.

With due respect to those that choose to carry:
1) You are most effective when you pursue an attitude of vigilence that would seek to minimize the chances you would ever draw and fire. A threat pre-empted is preferable than a threat vanquished.
2) You live in an upside down post-modernist world that would too often see the "troubled youth" as the victim and all you seek to protect your family from could be visited upon them should you resort to a "vanquish first" strategy.
3) Related to #2, you and yours are significantly more at risk while you are waiting for your bail hearing or worse, serving your sentence, then if you pursue a threat pre-emption strategy (see #1)

I respect those that choose to carry.

I support with my ballot their right to do so.

I make my decision as to whether or not I will carry based on my specific circumstances.

Every man and women here at THR has to make that same decision based on THEIR circumstances.

Great thread!

Stay safe,

CZ52'

Darrin
October 28, 2003, 09:01 PM
My Father only carries when he takes trips out of town. He doesn't think anything will happen to him when in town, but mainly, he hasn't found a comfortable carry method yet.

He knows I carry daily and I think he's starting to come around. He wants an IWB holster like mine. As soon as I get it for him, I think he'll start carrying more often. (I hope)

P95Carry
October 28, 2003, 09:43 PM
I wasn't quite sure when I kicked this thread off .... quite where it would go .... how even it would be received.

As I said at the outset .. I was not wishing to tread on toes or ruffle feathers, or try to demean the non-CCW's .. just a genuine curiosity to hear views from the ''other side''!:)

Thanks to all so far who have contributed .... I think that overall, despite a few small ''contratents'' ...... we have on the whole all expressed our courtious approval of each and every person's right to decide...... whichever route they take.

No way can everyone agree on this sorta subject but I have noticed, with I think few, if any exceptions ...... the statement by those who wish not to carry ... that the rights of those who do are both accepted and respected. On the whole I reckon this works too in reverse, even we do not totally see eye to eye.

Thx guys... and stay safe whichsoever route you do choose.

Poohgyrr
October 29, 2003, 03:20 AM
Hmmm. I don't quite know if I'm lucky that I can CCW, or unlucky because rude thugs who will knock my head open for $20 walk the streets. But I will admit it. I do not carry in the shower, because I simply do not want to. The Glock is new school and some water wouldn't bother it. But the classic Hi Power would need to be cleaned and lubed every time. I don't even want to think about a prized blue steel revolver. The dogs better do their job.

Edited for personal rant: And yes, CZ52guy is right about 9/11. Those folks attack churches, schools, shopping centers, etc... often, and have for a long time. Well, in Israel, Germany, and France the terrorists & regular crooks kinda stopped attacking schools after getting shot to pieces by the Good Guys a few times. It's still open season elsewhere though. So yeah, each of us has to decide for ourselves. So, how many States here have shall issue, allowing freedom of choice?? Some people respond to "please" and "thank you" in a good way. Others think those words are a sign of weakness.

P95Carry
October 29, 2003, 10:56 AM
So, how many States here have shall issue, allowing freedom of choice?? I'm totally open to correction on this John but figure ''36'' comes to mind.

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