New Shooters - Old Shooters....


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mcdonl
July 7, 2009, 10:42 AM
Hi folks, I have seen and been engaged in some of the "what is better...." type of conversations, as well as have been treated poorly by some who think that newbies should not be asking such questions, and get mad when new shooters ask quesions about calibers, etc....

I was sitting in my office this morning (The throne....) reading American Handgunner and there was a great article about this subject. I found it online and will share it with you.

After reading this, I called a friend who recently purchased an XDM and has yet to shoot it. I have not found the time to bring him to the range, but we will this weekend.

Enjoy...

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHJA09/?page=106

Leroy

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moooose102
July 7, 2009, 10:53 AM
what is better is a properly trained shooter with sevral years of experience! a new shooter, does not have the safety skills, and in many cases, really, any idea how to even hold a gun correctly. and old experienced shooter, may be having eye sight problems, may not be able to hold the gun steady, and in many cases, can not hear for beans. but, in most cases, at least he is safe. so, if i were going to pick between the two, like to hunt with, i would take the older guy. if nothing else, he knows gun safety.

Walkalong
July 7, 2009, 10:57 AM
What is better for what?

Young newbies are better for toting the heavy stuff.

Old experienced guys are better for answering questions. :D

mcdonl
July 7, 2009, 10:58 AM
I guess you are missing the point Moose.

How does a shooter become a properly trained shooter with several years of experience if no one is willing to step up and help. Not everyone is born into a shooting family, and needs the help of the shooting community.

I guess your post helps nail home the message of this article. I expected more from THR, but I have seen far more posts of people bashing new guys then being willing to help. I am glad there are other forums out there with more of an open to new people attitude.

Walkalong
July 7, 2009, 11:28 AM
I did not really understand the question of you post either. Sorry we dissapointed. :)

bababooey32
July 7, 2009, 11:36 AM
moose:old experienced shooter, may be having eye sight problems, may not be able to hold the gun steady, and in many cases, can not hear for beans. but, in most cases, at least he is safe

I've been muzzle flashed by more oldtimers who think they know everything then by any younger shooters. I've found that the responsible young shooters pay closer attention to the four rules, because they are still fresh. Oldtimers that know everything someties let those rules lapse because...well...they know everything!!!

Juts my experience. YMMV.

mcdonl
July 7, 2009, 11:39 AM
Walkalong... no question was asked. I was just sharing an article about how the old time shooters seem to dislike the new shooters... not only my opinion, but American Handgunner seems to feel the same.

Walkalong
July 7, 2009, 12:06 PM
I've found that the responsible young shooters pay closer attention to the four rules, because they are still fresh.Newly trained folks are often some of the best.

old time shooters seem to dislike the new shooters...

For the record, this old shooter welcomes new shooters. I suspect most do.

I expected more from THR, but I have seen far more posts of people bashing new guys then being willing to help.I see some of those posts, but a great many more helpful posts. Besides, some of the negitive posts are not old guys.

I am glad there are other forums out there with more of an open to new people attitude. They must be pretty great places then, cause THR is pretty darn good IMHO. :)

oneounceload
July 7, 2009, 12:23 PM
Maybe it is more of a generational attitude towards guns that I see.....Us older folks were taught to carefully aim, hunt, show respect for life and the taking of it. Most young folks I see today seem to think owning a gun is an extension of one of the video games and that "spray and pray" "gangsta" style is cool. THAT turns a lot of older folks off. Most older folks tend to appreciate the blue steel and wood versus the black plastic.......

I think the condemnation can go both ways

Lightninstrike
July 7, 2009, 12:39 PM
The OP has a point though. Whether black plastic and stainless or walnut and blue, the point is to be able to have that choice, and argue about it amiably. IMHO that's what this and other like minded forums should be focused on. All the new shooters that acquired firearms after Nov 4th, 2008 did so for a reason. We should welcome them and their support for RKBA, age not withstanding. The more the better.

My $.02.

P.S. I don't dispense a lot of advice simply because I do not feel qualified to do so. Others that are qualified should.

P.P.S There is ONE piece of advice I do feel qualified to offer: Read but don't reply on all those threads about what is better for this that or the other thing. Best caliber, best rifle, pistol, shotgun, home defense weapon, ad nauseum. You can't win and the debate has been going for millenia, ever since Ooog and Oook moved into a cave. There are always a couple of holdouts who are either a) comfortable with their peashooter, or b) refuse to leave home without a one megaton thermonuclear device. Pick what works for you and go forth.

DasFriek
July 7, 2009, 12:43 PM
I think i would qualify as a "new guy" i bought my first handgun in almost 20 years about 2 months ago,and ive purchased 3 but traded one in.
Im 38 years old,and i know saftey pretty well since i was brought up shooting from age 7 by my x-Navy father.
Now on to my experiances recently:

Im truley lucky i have a gun shop locally that has 2 locations and both places are so busy you have to take a number like at the BMV to get a salesman to talk too.But they listened to what i wanted and what i needed as thier is a differance.The understood budgets and didnt try and push higher end stuff on me.They have done a bunch of good stuff to help me knowledge wise but this would take forever to post and read it.

At the range as ive been to 2 differant ones,ive had nothing but good experiances.The first one makes you watch a 15 minute video on thier gun saftey rules for the range,i didnt talk to many people as they were busy,but i never felt shunned.
At the second range i convinced my 64 year old mother who is on oxygen and a walker to join me as she does keep a 9mm close by her hospital bed,and i wanted to get her some practice.I FULLY ADMIT im am a bad teacher,i know what to do personally but i have a hard time teaching others.
The range master saw my mom was having issues with grip and wrists and came over and spent a good 45 minutes with her,she did so well after he helped her she wants to go back.
Another trip to the same range the RM came over to me and gave me some tips also on why i was shooting my Glock so bad that day.

Next is internet forums,thats been a mixed bag due to trolls and flamers.
But many times ive seen Mods here take care of those people quikly,and not dealing with that makes it enjoyable.I do still get the "you only shot your weapon 200 rounds and owned it 2 weeks,you dont have an opinion that means anything" But i do kind of see some truth in that,but we/i have good intentions and sometimes we just like talking about our new guns also.

So all in all i cant say i would change anything in how ive been treated as a new guy.And even tho im older and been around guns for most my life i still have noob questions,and most can be answered with the search button.

ezypikns
July 7, 2009, 12:47 PM
watch the shooters. I really don't care how old they are, the person who is constantly chattering, violating safety rules (such as walking up to the line to check his or her firearm during a cease fire), spraying their target rather than trying to take their time and use their sights, and volunteering unasked for help to all and sundry is NOT the person a new shooter needs to emulate.

Look for someone (once again, it does not matter whether they're young or old) who can hit his or her target, obeys safety rules and acts in a safe manner, and is polite and considerate of others.

These are the people to ask questions of. I believe that most of the time you'll get polite and thoughtful answers from these folks.

We all had to start sometime, somewhere.

loneviking
July 7, 2009, 12:49 PM
It isn't so much that I don't like new shooters, as much as I wish they would do some common sense homework and engage brain before posting. If you're stumped about something, and can't find the answer using the search engine then sure, no problem. But look at some of these titles and this is what comes to my mind:

'If you encountered someone open carrying'... (oh for cryin' out loud, what, you want to pee your pants? Run away? Why should it be any big deal as long as they are behaving themselves?)

'You have a bulge in your pants' (Really? Probably got a couple of 'em and if you ain't young, cute and female....don't ask!)

'Does gun control reduce crime' (Does anybody bother to check the newswires for places like Chicago,which has strict gun control and a body count worse than Baghdad?!)

'CCW classes,good or bad' (who the hell cares? If you want the license, you go to the class!)

'Best carry gun' (answer---whatever works for you! There is no ''best' that works for everyone, so quit trying to find one)

'Tell me why I should carry my 1911' (hell, I don't care if you carry a *&^ brick and throw it at the bad guys. You can do whatever you want too)

'How good a shot are you?' (With what? At what range? What is the target? Compared to whom?)

Are you starting to get my point? I just skip right over these kinds of threads as they are just a waste of time. Now if you want to ask a serious question about the ballistic drop of a .40 S&W vs. that of a .45 at 80 yards....fine, that would be good. But this other junk? I'll pass....

JCisHe
July 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
I know some old timers who are very careful and others who are bumbling fools. I know some new guys that can't shoot for crap but are VERY careful and others who aren't so careful and shoot good.

It's the elitist folks who treat people badly and frankly I just don't talk to them. People in general are different so their habits are different. Some have bad habits they've done for millennia while others have just started and some good etc...

The "super" shooters are jerks. Disregard them and practice safety as it was taught to you. Then keep researching and you will get better on your own along with the help of those who are helpful.

Regards,
Beau

ezypikns
July 7, 2009, 12:56 PM
I just skip right over these kinds of threads as they are just a waste of time.

But I believe the OP is talking about new shooters with legitimate questions. And not the "What Caliber for Zombies" kind.

And to be perfectly honest, sometimes a newbie doesn't KNOW how dumb his question really is.

ar10
July 7, 2009, 01:01 PM
I was just sharing an article about how the old time shooters seem to dislike the new shooters... not only my opinion, but American Handgunner seems to feel the same.

I don't like or dislike any shooters at the range. What I care about is how well or how poorly they shoot. And I have booted old and new shooters off the range at times. In other words old experienced shooters are treated equally as new shooters.

mcdonl
July 7, 2009, 01:43 PM
Walkalong.... sorry if I sounded like I think there are better internet sites... I do not think that is the case... I think that when it comes to a collection of knowledge, THR is the best. I also feel as though THR is the best because of the mods and their handwork keeping people on the High Road. But, I do feel as though printed publications a) have money to get some advice from some experts who are given the time to think about what they write, and b) attract some of the "old time" pro's who may stay away from the internet for many of the same fundamental reasons I posted this thread to begin with...

Loneviking... with the exception of THR and a couple of other sites, I think that internet resources are pretty lame. As a matter of fact, if you type in a well thought out question in Google, or Yahoo it brings you here... I agree, maybe more new THR users should use the search function, but this is an open forum and sometimes people like to discuss items for their own benefit and entertainment, and the fact that others get information from these discussions is an added benefit. I feel bad that you are annoyed by some of these posts but they are all valid points. Maybe not to you, with your vast experience but to someone who is new to the sport, and is interesting in carrying what the best carry gun is *IS* a good question. If they do not know what they are looking for then the answer "what works best for you" is of no help at all.

Leroy

mcdonl
July 7, 2009, 01:44 PM
I don't like or dislike any shooters at the range. What I care about is how well or how poorly they shoot. And I have booted old and new shooters off the range at times. In other words old experienced shooters are treated equally as new shooters.

That is all anyone can ask for. :)

missed again
July 7, 2009, 03:05 PM
The article in American Handgunner is exactly the reason I put together an entry level DVD on guns. I bought my first gun 3 years. At 63, Iím not easily intimidated; however I found getting into shooting a less than friendly experience. On my first trip to a gun store the owner, after ignoring me for Ĺ an hour practically dared me to ask a question. The next store was slightly more ďbuyer friendlyĒ in that I was the only customer. The experience was not for the thin-skinned. Your experience may have been better.

I found friends and acquaintances were experiencing the same treatment, not just in Florida but across the country. A few who braved the shooting range had an equally bad experience with range officers who would rather yell than instruct. And, virtually no one was encouraging the NRA training programs. The few who were offered declined the program. They objected to the cost and didnít plan on carrying a gun. They only wanted to put it in the nightstand for defense.

IMHO, a great deal of people are buying guns without understanding of how to use them and waiting for the bad guy to walk in the door to shoot them for the first time! This seems bad on several levels to me.

Iíve been fortunate in that I found THR early on in my post NRA, self-directed training. The (positive) postings have been very informative and I even learned a lot from the caliber wars. Hey, when you donít know anything about the subject, you donít even know what questions to ask.

Beginners Guide 2 Guns DVD is for me 3 years ago, the guy next to me at the range trying to stuff a 357 into a S&W 642 and the woman pointing the stovepiped 380 at my chest and wondering why it wonít shoot anymore. Itís for the old guy with the ear protection on who canít understand why the range officer is yelling at him to step back from the red line. Itís very basic, user friendly and available at beginnersguide2guns.com. which will go live 7/10/09.

JohnBT
July 7, 2009, 04:02 PM
"I know some old timers who are very careful and others who are bumbling fools."

I'm careful around guns and fool around redheads. :)

ar10
July 7, 2009, 05:57 PM
I'm careful around guns and fool around redheads.
I'd really reconsider, I've always believed redheads were much more dangerous than guns. Don't ask how I know. Just trust me.;)

runrabbitrun
July 7, 2009, 06:50 PM
mcdonl
I like new shooters.
I introduced my son to shooting and now my girlfriend
wants me to take her out to the range as well.
I'm also the type of guy that I know I don't know everything.
(OK after a few beers I DO know it all. LOL)
I'm no expert on weapons, rounds and all that MOI stuff... that's for sure.

If people show a true interest and are willing to LISTEN
and follow the safety instructions to the letter....
SEVERAL times BEFORE we ever lock and load.
I'll bend over backwards to get them into shooting.

Now if someone comes off as a know it all right out of the gate and
I observe them NOT following the safety rules, then I will back away in a heart beat.
(I make the people around me do this stuff repeatedly, long before we hit the range).

Also for an FYI...
At many forums we all go through the ringer at first.
We are the newbies and the old timers got to test us.
I've been on the receiving end after running my mouth about those who prefer to
carry with a round in the chamber 24/7.
I took a licking and I learned something.
I learned why some people have that need.
It's all good and although I may not of liked what a few said.
(It was me who ran his mount first and inserted foot in mouth)
I gave as good as they did and
as far as I know, all is well.

Isn't that what its all about anyway?
Learning something new.

So don't run off, just understand this place is filled with testosterone and you'll be fine. :)

TEDDY
July 7, 2009, 07:54 PM
all ranges should have an NRA certifid instuctor at all times.they could teach new owners.I have given mine up as no one here,but held it for 30 yrs,and was trained by a top instructor who was rifle instuctor in high school.that was before WW2.this country went down hill from the 60s on.
"the kennedys did it" after JFK got killed and then Robert the 68 law went in effect.there would not have been a law if it had been any one else.I do not hate the kennedys I voted for JFK.but not that pile Teddy.
another thing is this shooting 4/5 hundred rds in a day.its a waste and does not get you trained for good shooting.I shot 50 rds and quit. and next week 50 more.I am not a good shooter but can/could keep them in the 10 ring at 50 and fully in black at 50 yds.and I think at 85 thats pretty good.:rolleyes:
:uhoh:

loop
July 8, 2009, 05:20 AM
loneviking,

well said.

mec
July 8, 2009, 09:07 AM
people bashing new guys then being willing to help

Roys AH article really resonated with me. I can remember a generation or so of old range crows who hogged shooting lanes and made things hard for new shooters. I've also seen old gun celebrities on various enthusiast boards doing everything they could to run off newer shooters. . Some have "contributed" to the gun culture but they counterbalance this by killing the enthusiasm of new shooters.
They are merely the aged version of the junior high school bullies who made it dangerous to drop your soap in the shower.

New shooters are the most important part of the equation right now. Our local range traditionally had a membership in the mid 500s. Since the last political upheaval, the membership stands at over 1,000. It is now doubly important for the old beards to treat the new shooters with respect.

ar10
July 8, 2009, 12:08 PM
Roys AH article really resonated with me. I can remember a generation or so of old range crows who hogged shooting lanes and made things hard for new shooters. I've also seen old gun celebrities on various enthusiast boards doing everything they could to run off newer shooters. . Some have "contributed" to the gun culture but they counterbalance this by killing the enthusiasm of new shooters.
They are merely the aged version of the junior high school bullies who made it dangerous to drop your soap in the shower.

New shooters are the most important part of the equation right now. Our local range traditionally had a membership in the mid 500s. Since the last political upheaval, the membership stands at over 1,000. It is now doubly important for the old beards to treat the new shooters with respect.

Your statement made me think back about our range. Last October we have 746 members and as of last week we have 1453. In 10 months it has doubled and over 50% are new shooters.
"Old shooters" don't mean squat to me any more and I have booted more than a few of them off the range. With many of the shooters that come in groups it's more like a social get-together, with cell phones, text messaging, and all the other crap. Instead of concentrating on the line they get distracted. I had one woman point loaded 45 right at her husbands chest, just because her girlfriend said something who was standing behind her, and they were the "old shooter" group. Stuff like that, and it's pretty common now since we will have more than 100 shooters on the line on a weekend, pisses me off. Instead of trying to help a shooter out I've now turned into a "royal a%*"HOLE :banghead::banghead::cuss:

HarleyFixer
July 8, 2009, 02:51 PM
And to be perfectly honest, sometimes a newbie doesn't KNOW how dumb his question really is.

In this day of the internet this is not an excuse. The answer to virtually any question is available on Google. DO YOUR HOMEWORK before asking what turns out to be a DUMB question. I am not an expert on many things so before I jump into anything I RESEARCH.
But then I am just a crotchety old guy. I truely enjoy teaching someone to shoot no matter the discipline BUT they need to 1. LISTEN, 2. LOOK, and 3. LEARN.

Skillet
July 8, 2009, 04:14 PM
i run into this alot.
i am about 15, my dad buys all of my guns for me, because he knows i handle them responsibly and knows that i do not do anything stupid with them. i took hunters ed when i was about 12 and have outshot my dad ever since (haha) but since i am underage, i go to the gun counter and look to see what is there and the guys look at me like i need to go die in a hole. i ignore them, and just try to go on about my own business. i do not get intimidated that easy and i just get my dad if i need something. one guy even tried to stop me from buying a holster because he thought you needed to be 18 to buy one.
i think that there will always be that "greenhorn" syndrome, it is like that in alot of things. i just choose to not let it bother me because nobody there knows my background with guns.
but i believe, that nobody should handle a gun until they have either gone through a gun safety class, whether that be hunters ed or something else, or unless they have been pounded to know gun safety.
i like to help out the people that are even newer to me when it comes to guns because it makes me feel like i can insure that they have a great time shooting, and because it makes me feel "high and mighty". really, i am glad that they ARE asking those questions because if they aren't we could have a problem with safety and the future of our sport. when starting out something new, the smart thing to do is ask questions and get to know your sport first.
everyone has to start somewhere.

Skillet
July 8, 2009, 04:18 PM
just remember though, it is a few bad apples that give the rest a bad name.
don't generalize.

mec
July 8, 2009, 05:05 PM
and just try to go on about my own business.
It sounds like you are already way ahead of the game. I suspect your dad is a wealth of knowlege. You might want to invest in a couple of new Handloading Manuals and maybe even a few vintage ones. A lot of gunshop and internet experts seem not to have read any of them. there are also basic books on shooting available through the National Rifle Association. Those things will help you evaluate the information you get from random sources.

TheFallGuy
July 8, 2009, 05:38 PM
Soda_monkey236, I get treated like you all the time because I am an inexperienced shooter too. Never mind the fact that I am 22, did my time in the army (including a tour overseas), have been shooting since 8, go hunting every year, built my own AR, got into reloading, been to an appleseed, taken many courses form NRA instructors, etc, etc. Get used to it.

It has been getting better but there are always one or two guys that always scoff at me on the range. Those are the same guys who think often think a 7mm mag or .300 winchester mag is required to get a white tail. If they are too stubborn to help you, why would they be open to suggestions from other folks? Do you really want those opinions or "help"?

mcdonl
July 8, 2009, 09:23 PM
The answer to virtually any question is available on Google. DO YOUR HOMEWORK before asking what turns out to be a DUMB question. I am not an expert on many things so before I jump into anything I RESEARCH.

I guess the only problem I have with this is that there are some good people here who are willing and happy to help, so me... I would prefer to come to a place like this to get my information then to Google. I suppose if you are not willing, or happy to help you could just ignore the questions. I only brought this up because I read the article over my morning coffee and thought I would share it.

Sorry to have caused such an up-roar.

oneounceload
July 8, 2009, 09:31 PM
One thing I would suggest to all new folks on this or any other similar forum, these places have "stickies" posted at the top with some of the more basic FAQ's and answers.......MANY of the basic questions have been asked, and answered, in those stickies, yet most folks do not look at them..........it really pays to look at those before posting a question that has been answered previously 100 times

eqfan592
July 8, 2009, 09:52 PM
I also sympathize with what that article is saying. I got my first gun on my 21st birthday as a present, but I didn't start shooting at all until last year (I'm now 28). Now this isn't entirely because of that some folks had at the stores when I would go in to ask questions, as that was a pretty crazy period in my life. But it did keep me from getting into it as quickly as I might have. Of course, getting a little older gave me a bit more of a "If they don't like it they can go to hell" attitude when it comes to people being crappy around new shooters. So last year, I took the NRA safety classes, and found a range that is run by some of the friendliest people I've met. Very welcoming, and always more than happy to answer questions, and the same can be said about many of the shooters there.

I guess I would say to anybody that is having any problems of the sort some of us have gone through to stick with it, and to not let the negative attitude of a few jerks get you down.

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