'unnofficial Walker/Dragoon LRE club


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AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 03:12 AM
‘UNOFFICIAL’ THR WALKER/DRAGOON (LRE) LONG RANGE EXPRESS CLUB.

Warning – big post. Bring coffee, sandwiches and a tent!

I am taking a leaf from Scrat’s preceeding work but do not have his contacts so will probably be treading on toes here or there. Never mind – it is in a good cause!

What (in my opinon) Scrat really did was demonstrate that there can be an extreme interest group (Walkers) within what in what is already a specialised interest group (Black Powder forums). His success is measured by the nearly 2,000 posts and 60,000 views that those posts have had.

Can we do something similar in another even more focalised area? I say WE because this could fall flat on it’s face if people are not interested and do not participate! It depends entirely on what you Guys and Gals want to see on the forums, what you are interested in etc.

I just about haunt these forums so you can be assured that answers will be forthcoming promptly.

THE ‘SUB CLUBS’ INVOLVED.

There is proposed to be two – the LRE club (membership presently not open for practical reasons – please see below. And the Colt Dragoon Club – membership currently open.

WHAT THE LRE IS ALL ABOUT.

LRE stands for Long Range Express. This was originally a concept fielded by TMC4232 on the Walker club thread. He produced a photoshop concept image of a Walker with an 18” ‘Buntline’ barrel fitted to it. Replies to the concept indicated an interest in also affixing a detachable shoulder stock (as Colt did later with the 3rd Model Dragoon, the 1860 Army, the 1851 Navy and even some of the quite small 1861 and 1862 pockets. All rigged up this would turn the Walker into a carbine with a lot more long range accuracy and a lot more manageable for the average shooter.

I was taken with the concept and decided to build at least one. This did not seem too much of a drama at the initial time. I expressed my interest on the forums and others offered both their interest and in some cases their support.

THE DRAGOON CLUB.

This has been bandied about a bit on the forums with members asking for one to be set up in it’s own right. In fact there is already a ‘de facto’ one along with Scrat’s Walker club. Many owners of Walkers also own Dragoons thus using the Walker thread to get contact.

So we can launch that straight away? Personally I know little about the Dragoons other than superficially that there were four different models of them – Whitneyville, 1st model, 2nd model and 3rd model. So I need some volunteers to step forward to answer some of the technical points that will doubtless come out!

DRAGOON CLUB MEMBERSHIP.

Nearly totally informal and I am adopting Scrat’s method. Ie I will keep a master list of members in numerical order of joining that I will post updates of periodically. To join you need to own a Dragoon and must post an image of YOUR Dragoon plus any interesting data etc that you wish to tell everyone about along with your application to join.

Please include the manufacturer – eg Colt original (plus your address so that we can come around and rob you )! Colt 2nd Gen, Signature series, Uberti, ASM, Pietta etc etc. Including the serial number would be handy too, plus the model number but that should be obvious from the image anyway if you are unsure.

Please note: I would like to keep this exclusively to Dragoons, but can relax a bit if people so wish. For example – some of the early repro Walkers were named Walker Dragoons and even Whitneyville Walker Dragoon – I do not see these as being actual Dragoons.

I am kicking us off with the start of a membership list. If you are already on it and do not wish to be then just say so and you can be removed.

DRAGOON CODING.

There are a number of varieties of these guns so I am going to code for more complete identification:

COLT Orig 1st Gen. An original period Colt Dragoon.
COLT 2nd Gen. A second generation issue when Colt began re-manufacturing them.
COLT 3rd Gen. Also known as the ‘Signature Series’
WHITNEYVILLE. The ‘Transition Walker’ assembled from partly Walker and partly Dragoon parts.
1st model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch, oval cylinder bolt holes and square back trigger guard (a rare find is one with round trigger guard and there is at least one of these on the forum.
2nd model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch, oblong cylinder bolt holes and square back trigger guard
3rd model. A Dragoon with a loading lever front latch. Oblong cylinder bolt holes and a round trigger guard.
UB – a Uberti manufactured repro gun.
Pietta – a Pietta manufactured repro gun.
ASM – an Armi San Marco manufactured repro gun.
(any others then please post!)
Sr No. The serial number of the gun.
M/Sr Nos. A gun with a full compliment of matching serial numbers of it’s components.
PRES/COMM. A Presentation or Commemorative edition – usually limited numbers made. Please indicate the serial number of the gun in the limited edition run (eg – 25/200, the 25th gun in a series of 200 total issues)
CASED. The gun is cased in a presentation box (usually with accessories/tools etc). These will normally be limited edition weapons. High standard owner made cases are acceptable for this.
HIST. The gun has full documented history of its pedigree.
You may also add brief comment on any other unusual features of the weapon. Eg custom grips etc.
ENGRAV. The gun is decoratively engraved (beyond that normally done – eg serial numbers, manufacturer, patent or standard cylinder roll engraving).

MEMBERSHIP LISTING – THR ‘UNOFFICIAL’ COLT DRAGOON CLUB.

NB: I am including forum members who I either know to have Draggies (or damn well should have) and if they do not want to be here then please just say so. If you do then PM me details and email a pic and I will edit/post inserts for you. If you are named here then take it as acknowledgement for your forum contribution and as an invite!

#1 AussieTH. UB 3rd model, M/Sr Nos. A72064. A standard production Uberti but fully cut for shoulder stock. (not a good image but the best that I can do at the moment).

#2. Scrat.

#3. Das Jaeger.

#4 sltm1.

#5 Arcticap

#6 TMC4232

#7 Big Bad Gun. (part of the team anyway)

#8 Smoking Gun.

#9 Mad Crate Builder.

#10 Noble Sniper.

# 11 Gentleman of the Charcoal (See not everyone hates you GOTC)

# 12. Old Fuff. Need your expertise mate!

#13. Ginormouse. (Because he just HAS to be part of this!!!)


LRE CLUB – INITIAL DATA.

Not much I can put down but actually quite a bit as we have been at it for a while now. We do have a team for the project and are already well underway. But there were hiccups.

In essence the LRE project is to take a Walker, put an extended ‘Buntline’ Barrel on it, cut it to take a detachable shoulder stock – then off you go. So we have a number of components. Possibly the most significant component is that nobody can really join because there are no LREs so it is a bit difficult to post an image first. But actually there ARE some LREs already.

LRE IMAGES & BACKGROUND.

Once we launched the project some ‘challenges’ were encountered! We refuse to have ‘problems’ – only ‘challenges’!!!!

THE BASE GUN & KIT. This was intended as the Uberti Repro Walker as they are reasonably common, are likely to be around for a long while, parts are available easily. That was mistaken thinking in a broader sense and it was my own fault for not knowing enough – or more specifically for not doing enough research. I had assumed that all of the repros from various manufacturers would be replications of the Walker.

The LRE concept comes down to a kit, so the thinking was that if you had a Walker (virtually any ‘Walker’ then you could convert it into an LRE affordably (but I emphasis that at this time there is no intention of going into some form of business – at least not yet anyway). But if a Uberti model LRE conversion parts will not fit an ASM etc then we are inviting problems that we do not want and neither does the new owner. This has all got to work smoothly first time around – for everyone.

This area is currently being worked on and I am buying a variety of Walkers and Dragoons as LRE stock for examination and prototype work-ups. The end product is intended as a conversion kit that will up-date any Walker into a carbine.

‘BUNTLINE BARRELS’. The decision has been made to go to 18” barrels. This is going to make any normal Walker very much heavier than it already is! These will be made in Australia and I have a top gunsmith lined up to do the work. They will be top quality barrels so will not be cheap. None of us are in the market for something that ‘looks nice’ but will not last. The barrels will be exported to the States for assembly into LRE kits.

STOCKS. This initially seemed a simple exercise but was not. Detachable stocks are commonly available retail. However, The Walkers and Dragoons are much broader across the shoulders than their smaller following models (1851 Navy and 1860 Army) so the retail Stocks are too narrow to be put on a Walker or Dragoon! That is not the end of the world – but it is bloody infuriating when Uberti make Dragoons that are already cut for stocks but no longer sell the stocks that fit. No matter, we have latched onto a supply of brand new defective stocks that we are able to convert (see below).

Sltm1 has already made the waxes for the stock adaptors and has sent me images of this. Perhaps he will be so kind as to add a post with images below and anything else that he wishes to add. He is a top guy.

IMAGES & EXISTING LREs.

Unfortunately I have none that I can post (yet) but there are actually existing LREs!

To the LRE team’s surprise just what we were intending came up on Gunbroker. Big barrel, Walker pistol, and fitted stock. Lovely. We hurriedly assembled to buy it and by misfortune missed out – it could have been had for only USD1,000. I am still spitting chips about that! Never mind you stay on making positives – not weeping over losses!

Within two weeks another came up on these forums! It was only and image but was exactly the same project but rendered in a 3rd model Dragoon and looked lovely. The person who posted the image failed to respond to pleas as to where this gun may be or where the image came from. It will be tracked down eventually!!!!

From those a decision has been made that the Walker LRE project will also encompass the Dragoons as well. More – we may well toy with 1860 Army and 1861/1862 Navy versions. Not too sure about the latter as the long barrels would be expensive to make really well.

IMAGE LIST.

I cannot post images yet but these are what they will be and I will edit them in later. For those who are impatient then go to the ‘Official’ THR Walker club and scroll back down to pages 46 and 49 where this all started from (or thereabouts):

1. Standard Uberti repro Walker.

2. As above but enlarged with a ‘Buntline’ 18” barrel (image courtesy of a concept by TMC4232)

3. As above but enlarged further with addition of a detachable shoulder stock to make the full LRE carbine version (Image also courtesy of TMC4232).

4. Example of a detachable shoulder stock showing most of the fittings.

So that you are currently not disappointed you may view the originals by returning to the main forum Walker club and scroll back to pages

WORK IN PROGRESS.

CUSTOM BARRELS. These are already to go as soon as I have some guns free for the gunsmith to measure up (this is about getting over Aussie gun regulation) I am having a Uberti Walker and Uberti 3rd mod. Dragoon done first. Then probably an 1860 Army.

STOCKS. This has been a hassle because the horse pistol stocks are no longer made and the adaptor housings on the 1851 and 1860 models are too narrow for the bigger guns. However sltm1 had already made waxes from which the moulds can be made to fit the larger guns and also be fitted to current stocks available retail!

The adaptor housing is the really important part as it has to fit securely with large weapons. Sltm1 had redesigned the Colt original such that the recoil shield on the revolver does not have to be machined to take the stock. We will be supplying templates for drilling the frames so all you will have to do is fit four large lug screws, clip on the stock and off you go! These new adaptors will be cast in brass or maybe steel.

THE LRE TEAM.

There are a number of us (note that you should read posts carefully – all of these people read into what was said and made openings for themselves by asking):

Myself (AussieTH) but I am mainly around for steerage, funds provision and driving everyone else mad as a result plus the long custom barrel supply!

Sltm1. Roland is looking after the stock production. Sltm1 is an experienced artisan in making accurate moulds and that is already coming along well.

TMC4232. As the original concept organiser he will be getting a prototype for test firing and general use research.

Articap. Steve has been a boon to myself for other gun reasons and will also be invited in for prototype evaluation.

A. N. Other. Name withheld at the moment as he is still being courted. But potentially could bring a huge dimension into the LRE project.

Big Bad Gun. Appointed leather worker and supplier. BBG is already engaged on designing the shoulder carry strap for the LREs. These will be individually crafted and serial numbered to the parent gun.

WHAT ELSE???

Probably a lot more but that is enough here for now. I am contemplating presentation cases for the weapons. The guns will be individually serial numbered and (hopefully) we can get some signature engraving done on them that does not blow the price out of the water!

Watch this space – get involved as much as any of you wish – but NOOOOO you are not going to be given a prototype to play with and shoot for a while – the queue is already too long!!

Take care, be safe and have fun. Any observations or suggestions are welcome – post away!

Aye

Tony

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Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 03:21 AM
#13. Ginormouse. (Because he just HAS to be part of this!!!)Ha! Hey I earned it! My Dragoon cooked me good. And #13 to boot, how appropriate! :D

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 03:28 AM
You just trundle back off into the corner and keep cooling down and healing!

How is the paw by the way? Good I hope!:cool:

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 03:32 AM
Looks good as new at this point, thanks for asking! A slight scar and a little pink coloration is all that remains. I really don't want to repeat the experience again, so my tender parts get eyes, ears, AND a glove now. :D

Smokin_Gun
July 8, 2009, 03:47 AM
Thanks Aussie...good memory you have...
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Mowrey%20and%20Big%20Boy%20Colts/BigColts3.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Mowrey%20and%20Big%20Boy%20Colts/BigColts2.jpg

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 04:06 AM
yeah - Good one! Welcome aboard Smoking Gun as confirmed #8.

Pics acknowledged of your Walker and 3rd model Sig series Dragoon.

Aye

AussieTH

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 04:09 AM
Ha! Methinks that is the first model with the round trigger guard. Damn! caught out so early!!!!

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 04:14 AM
My dirty gat:

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF0997-1-1.jpg

It has a minor scratch on the barrel now from being dropped quickly when it chainfired. We've come to an understanding now.

dlon21
July 8, 2009, 05:41 AM
My original 1st model Dragoon, serial 4088. All matching except for unserialized London stamped replacement barrel. I wonder what happened to the original barrel. Am I in?

// Daniel

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv315/dlon21/079-R1077.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv315/dlon21/079-R10771.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv315/dlon21/079-R1077b.jpg

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 06:20 AM
Welcome. With that how could I keep you out???? :what:

Oyeboten
July 8, 2009, 06:43 AM
Hi Aussie TH,



What progress on those Folding Leaf Sights?


Godspeed!



Phil

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 07:47 AM
Do I really need to even ask if this is an appropriete article of my Metal ART to be an offical member ? Hee hee hee :)

Colt Signature Series , serial number # 085 :

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/5150kelly/100_0312-1.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/5150kelly/100_0310.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/5150kelly/100_0309.jpg

Uberti production , Civillian Model :

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/5150kelly/100_0630-1.jpg

The Possey !

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/5150kelly/100_0628.jpg

I like the LRE idea , now hurry up would ya :) I want mine in Charcoal Blue please , one in Belgium Blue , and one in Plumb Browning thank you . Serial numbers #1 , #2 , and #3 , you heard it here first ! :)

Das Jaeger :)

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 08:43 AM
Hmmm.

A few thoughts:

'Dragoon' is a term invented by collectors. Colt called them 'Horse Pistols' and included the Walker and Whitneyville in the definition. He also didn't distinguish different models.

I've seen, on this forum some time ago, a detailed description of at least 4 different variations of what we call the 3rd Model. I'll see if I can find the posting. The differences were quite minor but distinct nonetheless.

The Horse Pistols in my herd:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%20Walker/P1140022.jpg

The 2nd Model, a Uberti, S/N 02433, manufactured in 1981 and purchased new in that year. All matching numbers.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%202nd%20Dragoon/632.jpg

The 3rd Model, a Colt Blackpowder Arms 3rd Generation Signature Series, S/N 35689, date of manufacture unknown, purchased at auction in 2005. All matching numbers, and I have the grey box.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%203rd%20Dragoon/636-1.jpg

The boys together:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/Colt%202nd%20Dragoon/650.jpg

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 11:03 AM
MyKeal , collectors had NOTHING to do with the name Dragoon .
The Dragoons were a Mounted Regiment called the Dragoons , the USMR to be exact .

Das Jaeger :)

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 11:21 AM
Das Jaeger, one word - DUCK! :D

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 11:32 AM
Hey , it is what it is :)
Wow , BRICK , Incomming , whew missed that one .........:what:
Nothin personal anyway , facts is facts , and I would hope someone would correct me when I am wrong too . Ummm , and its already been done here , once :)
What can I say , the gun was named after the troops, not by collectors, there wer no collectors collecting Dragoons , they were not collectable in progress , what can I say .
A few Models actualy had The Dragoons and USMR on the Cylinders , so there :)
It is what it is , hopefully you didn't take offence MyKeal ? Sorry if ya did , wasn't my intent . Peace , darn , nuther Brick ! :what:

Das Jaeger :)

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 11:51 AM
I know what dragoons are.

The use of the word Dragoon, to identify Sam Colt's 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 caliber revolving pistol, manufactured circa 1848 as a follow on to the larger 9 inch barrel .44, for issue to cavalry and mounted infantry in northern Mexico and the southwestern territories of the US, was not by Colt's Manufacturing Company nor any federal or territorial constituency, but rather by collectors well after the gun had been retired from general usage.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 8, 2009, 12:30 PM
Mr. MyKeal is absolutely correct. I myself have never in my life bought a gun without researching, losing sleep, and agonizing for days before finally turning loose of my hard earned money. I own a 1st Model 'Dragoon'. It's a fine little piece but I'll still stick with my '47. I finally ended up buying it out of a weird sense of loyalty. I call it the 'Son Of The Gun'....

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 8, 2009, 12:49 PM
AussieTH. Hey, I don't care who likes me and who dosen't. I know that me and John Wesley Hardin would have been real damn good friends if our times had coincided, and I know that James Butler Hickok would have been very careful to leave my little Alabama ass strictly alone.
I like the number eleven. I also appreciate you placing me between two of the better ones on this forum....

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 12:49 PM
But thats ok too :)

Das Jeager

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 01:24 PM
You can do more than disagree. You can convince me you are correct.

I'd be happy to consider any documentation you'd care to submit that Sam Colt, Colt's Manufacturing Company, the federal government, the government of the Republic of Texas, the US Army, the Texas Rangers or any other government organized militia (including the USMR) referred to the 7 1/2 inch barrel, .44 caliber Colt revolving pistol manufactured circa 1848 by Colt's Manufacturing Company as a 'Dragoon' prior to 1900.

It's very easy to convince me I'm wrong.

Birdmang
July 8, 2009, 01:28 PM
Wrong thread.

sltm1
July 8, 2009, 01:54 PM
Looks like you've got a Colt 1860 Army a Griswald and Gunnison, a Colt 1851 Navy and a 1858 Remington. All reproductions, the only one mirroring the original is the G&G, but it's the wrong caliber. I think they'ed top out around $150.00 each on Gun Broker, depending on the bore and mechanical condition.
ASM no longer makes these so parts might be an issue, plus they were never the best Italian mfgr anyhow. Good luck, you should start your own thread as this one isn't for your gun's.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 8, 2009, 01:56 PM
Nothing wrong with disagreeing so long as one is not insulting and disrespectful about it without cause....No such documentation exists. If it did I would have seen it I'm pretty sure.. Could be wrong I guess. I didn't live back then..

Ginormous
July 8, 2009, 02:00 PM
Birdmang, this question was answered for you 2 weeks ago, in another thread.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5700942&postcount=1808 (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5700942&postcount=1808)

If you post in an inappropriate thread, chances are you won't be able to locate your original post, for any replies.

Ratdog68
July 8, 2009, 02:00 PM
Nothing wrong with disagreeing so long as one is not insulting and disrespectful about it without cause....
LOL "... without cause..." Now, that's phunny. :D

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 02:09 PM
when you know your right , why argue that ?
And I am right . :)

Das Jaeger :)

Tallship
July 8, 2009, 02:16 PM
Can I join too:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z182/tallship2/P1000006.jpg

Original first model #4315. All matching except for the loading lever.

sltm1
July 8, 2009, 02:20 PM
Sure you can join....but you must send me the pistol for a 1 year inspection period first LOL!! Nice piece !!!

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 02:23 PM
revolver Tallship , outstanding example . :)

Das Jaeger

Calibre44
July 8, 2009, 02:48 PM
Here's mine from across the pond. Uberti 2nd Model Dragoon

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg230/woodsy_2008/Guns/misc007.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg230/woodsy_2008/Guns/Drag3.jpg

Birdmang
July 8, 2009, 02:59 PM
I always post in the wrong places!

All of these guns look so similar to me!

DoubleDeuce 1
July 8, 2009, 05:14 PM
I would say sign me up, but I can't get the picture to transfer. Where is a nine year old kid when you need one? And I can't set my dang VCR either. This may take some doing...

Colt 2nd Gen, 3rd Model Dragoon (purchased in 1976):cool:

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 06:09 PM
e-mail your pics to me and I will post um for ya if you want . :) Till you figure it out .

PM me if you'd like to get the details .

Das Jaeger

NobleSniper
July 8, 2009, 06:26 PM
I am delighted to be added to such a fine list.......thank you sir ;)

Oyeboten
July 8, 2009, 06:33 PM
Colt...'Freak Dragoon'...2nd Generation...3rd Model.


http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/1754/2363497560067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2363497560067835264tCKftS)


May I join?



Phil

scrat
July 8, 2009, 09:47 PM
GOC you old coot. we have been freinds longer than anyone. how are you any how. cant believe my eyes a spin off to the THR WALKER CLUB hahahaha its about time. Being Head Janitor in the THR CLUB is a heck of a job with you all

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 10:11 PM
Only 24 hours old and the club has 17 members already!!!! While the ‘Official Walker Club has only 70 or so – but a few more posts and views than ourselves – so far!

The up-dated membership list is following shortly. Due to the time gap – I am in bed while you guys are posting so I get up to a morning’s work – bear with me please as we settle down.

More interesting things coming shortly.


Scrat any 'spin off' my friend is entirely down to your own original vision and hard work - let us work together.

Aye

Tony

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 10:15 PM
#1 AussieTH. UB 3rd model, M/Sr Nos. A72064. A standard production Uberti but fully cut for shoulder stock. Plus 4 x Walkers (not a good image but the best that I can do at the moment). (LRE Project Staff)



#2. Scrat. Scrat has just about everything!!!!

#3. Das Jaeger. COLT 3RD GEN Signature series Matching sr/nos 085 Plus Walkers and many others. Specialises in custom grips. Being negotiated with to come onto LRE Staff.

#4 sltm1. LRE Project Staff - design and fabrication) Has Walkers.

#5 Arcticap. (LRE Project Staff) Highly knowledgeable re guns and has great reference finding skills.

#6 TMC4232 (Original LRE Concept design) Has a Walker

#7 Big Bad Gun. (LRE Staff – Leatherwork supply & design development – makes serious custom leather rigs for Draggies and Walkers)

#8 Smoking Gun. Rare UB 1st model with round trigger guard.

#9 Mad Crate Builder. Just a generally nice and knowledgeable guy to have around – with a good gun collection.

#10 MyKeal. COLT 3RD GEN SIGNATURE - 3RD model.
UB 2ND MODEL.

#11 Noble Sniper. On probation pending good behaviour but has 2 x very nice Walkers and will be getting a full set of Dragoons. Has expressed strong keenness on having a LRE – which makes him part of a crowd scene!

# 12 Gentleman of the Charcoal 1st model prob UB plus a Walker (handle with care from a distance – knows a lot and and is allegedly throwing a party for the troops at his place but currently is trying to back out!!!). Known to co-habitate with Indians and make good rat stews!!!!

# 13. Old Fuff. A seemingly inexhaustible supply of good quality knowledge. Does not speak often but when he does then listen!

#14. Ginormous. (Battle honours – Order of the Dragoon and two scars) Gino is the club’s leading experienced expert on Draggie chain fires!!! One could say first hand knowledge but that is second hand now!

#15 Dlon. ORIGINAL COLT 1ST MODEL (WOW!!!!) Matching numbers but has a London barrel assembly.

#16. Tallship. ORIGINAL COLT 1ST MODEL (WOW AGAIN!!!!) Matching numbers #4315.

#17 Double Deuce. COLT 2nd Gen 3rd model.

#18 OYEBOTEN. COLT 2ND GEN ‘FLUCK’ (RARE) 3RD MODEL.

#19 FINGERS MCGEE 2nd Gen Walker
2nd Gen 1st Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen 2nd Model dragoon;
2nd Gen C Series 3rd Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen C Series Bicentennial 3rd Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen F series 3rd Model Dragoon; and finally
ASM 3rd Model Dragoon - military model cut for shoulder stock with folding leaf sight

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 10:29 PM
OK – Where are we at in these early days/

Very well placed indeed.

We have members who have COLT ORIGINAL DRAGOONS plus a good sprinkling of COLT 2nd Gen guns! That is NOT your average toy shop!!!!

But I would like this club to go a bit further if we can and I seek a volunteer! This ‘club’ has been asked for often and long enough! There is no reason why we cannot become a central source of information on the Dragoon revolvers.

What I have in mind is an identification list (with images) of what the various models were/are and the ‘volunteer’ maintains the list. Who wants to re-write history because it is still very current today! If we can twist someone’s arm we may be awarded a ‘sticky’ to head up the club forums?

Aye

Tony

mykeal
July 8, 2009, 10:48 PM
You missed one. See post#13.

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 11:06 PM
is more accurate .
There was a Regiment called the Dragoons , fact .
The gun is named after that reginment . Whether tis here now or then , the name Dragoon came from that regiment , and certainly wasn't stemmed from any collectors vision , period .

Das Jaeger :)

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 11:08 PM
Damn! Sorry mate - I did not miss it, I did not transcribe it from my written list.

No danger that I do not want you on board as well - what a collection you have!!!!

Aye

T.

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 11:20 PM
Are you including the little Dragoons too in this History lesson ?

Das Jaeger

Fingers McGee
July 8, 2009, 11:25 PM
Hey Aussie. Did you forget me?

2nd Gen Walker
2nd Gen 1st Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen 2nd Model dragoon;
2nd Gen C Series 3rd Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen C Series Bicentennial 3rd Model Dragoon;
2nd Gen F series 3rd Model Dragoon; and finally
ASM 3rd Model Dragoon - military model cut for shoulder stock with folding leaf sight.

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 11:32 PM
How could I possibly miss you Fingers? But I cannot second guess your desire to become part of this company - I have been a bit free as it is!

Stick up a post and you are straight in!

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 11:34 PM
OYEBTEN. Thanks for jogging the memory because this was an important and irritating point that needed overcoming.

Although the LRE project is not ‘historically accurate’ much beyond the 3rd model Dragoon being cut for, and fitted with a shoulder stock – Those that were so modified were fitted with flip-up two leaf long range sights.

These sights were not replicated in the Italian Repros and I could not find anyone who currently makes a set. However, with a bit of digging I did come up with something that is currently manufactured and while not being the original two flip up (It actually has five flip ups) was similar in design and appearance so I decided on that.

At about $70 each they are not cheap but will give the LRE a bit more of an edge ‘far out’ where is should be reaching. I will try an capture an image and post it.

Aye

T.

AussieTH
July 8, 2009, 11:44 PM
Das Jaeger,

I see no reason why the baby Dragoons should not have a place here at all - in fact it would be very good for an overall coverage.

Fingers McGee
July 8, 2009, 11:46 PM
Stick up a post and you are straight in!

Consider it stuck.
These sights were not replicated in the Italian Repros

Actually, the ASM military model made in the 70s had exact replica of the flip up sights..
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1781.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1780.jpg

2nd Gen Walker
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1679.jpg

More pics to follow

Fingers McGee
July 8, 2009, 11:54 PM
I see no reason why the baby Dragoons should not have a place here at all - in fact it would be very good for an overall coverage.

OK, I've got a couple 2nd Gen baby Dragoons too. Here's one of them
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1654.jpg

Oyeboten
July 8, 2009, 11:54 PM
AussieTH,



Maybe try contacting 'ASM' and see if they still have a few dusty Cigar Boxes of those Sights laying around...


Offer good Scotch...might get lucky...


Phil

Fingers McGee
July 8, 2009, 11:56 PM
ASM went out of business years ago

Das Jaeger
July 8, 2009, 11:59 PM
to get someone to fabricate the correct sights , just gonna take foot work is all , and oh , MONEY .

Das Jaeger

Oyeboten
July 9, 2009, 12:13 AM
Ohhhhh...well, 'ASM's left-overs had to go some where...so, someone has them...or various someones have them...

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 9, 2009, 12:18 AM
AussieTH..Never mind. Be too much trouble..

Fingers McGee
July 9, 2009, 12:22 AM
MOre Pics:

2nd Gen F Series 1st Model
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1638.jpg

2nd Gen F Series 2nd Model
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1640.jpg

2nd Gen F series 3rd Model
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/100_1641.jpg

2nd Gen C Series 3rd Model
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/Cseries3rdModelDragoon.jpg

2nd Gen C Series Bicentennial 3rd Model Cased set w/accessories
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/BicentennialDragoon.jpg

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 12:30 AM
if he doesn't object , Das Jaeger could be put in his own little corner , figure he'd be his best own company :)
People are so funny , see lookie . :D

Das Jaeger

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 9, 2009, 12:46 AM
Scrat, we're alright. You and me against the world, buddy. I bet it does get kind of aggravating trying to keep up with the Walker Club. I'd get pissed off and throw the computer out of the window.
I guess I need to post a flick of my 1st Model. I'vd only fired it that 6 times (one cylinder full) that I told you about. I'vd got a couple of photographs of it on my camera now but I don't know where the cable is to feed the pictures into the computer. I got a 35 footer 5th wheel pulled in here and 'v'd' it up with the travel trailer with the point facing into where all the wind and snow will be blowing from this winter, and I'vd been moving lot's of stuff from one trailer to the next and am not sure which bag I stuck it in. I'll come across it as I'm sorting things out and putting stuff away.
It was nice of AussieTH to just look me up out of no where and give me a place on this thread.
I killed a couple of nice fat rattlesnakes a few days ago. Got them with my Walker. They'd been eating good since they'd been out. They were heavy; lot's of meat on them. I cleaned them and cooked some on July the 4th. Haven't eaten both of them yet. One of them is cut up in sections and wrapped up nice and in the freezer.
Well, it was real nice to hear from you Scrat. You write any time you'vd of a mind to. Always good to hear from old friends. GOTC..

Oldtrader3
July 9, 2009, 01:56 AM
Made by: Colt, 2nd Generation, 3rd Model Dragoon, cased with accessories, S/N: 23182.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Oldtrader3/Dragoon.jpg

Oh, and just for the Hell of it: 3rd Generation, boxed Baby Dragoon, S/N: 831
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Oldtrader3/Picture006.jpg

AussieTH
July 9, 2009, 02:28 AM
Hi O/T3

Beaut guns mate.

Your are in at member #20 and very welcome indeed.

Aye

Tony

AussieTH
July 9, 2009, 02:31 AM
Hi fighter!

If you want a reallocation of membership # then fine - but I will put you in no dog box as I want you around my friend!

You can take #1001 - but - next cab off the rank gets your #3! Howl now or forever hold you bones :evil:

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 05:38 AM
:) Pretty good member drive so far Aussie Mate !
Quite the collection of finer than normal Dragoons around here , very cool .
Someone ( you ) needs to post one of those leaf sights you got going on .
Ever considered a 22 or 24" barrel for your project ? Would be more realistic, and more useable for the five leaf if thats what you got your mind set on .
Just sayin .

Das Jaeger :)

AussieTH
July 9, 2009, 05:44 AM
OK - I will find a way of getting a link or image to the sight.

Not keen on the longer barrels - they would be bloody heavy even with BBG's heavy carrying straps. But anything is possible - let us see how the 18" turns out.

Hang onto dem bones sport!

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 06:06 AM
and I could be wrong here , but the Remington 58 was in 22" and 24" , not 18" ever .
I also don't think the extra four to six inches would make a hill of beans in weight , with a gun thats going to weight 7 or 8 pounds anyway . If you havea 14" trigger pull which I really enjoy , 22" or 24" is minimally perfect for balance anyway . Center of gravity on a gun like this is going to be the body of the gun , not the stock , not the barrel , you'd be good to go Mate .
Heck, make me one in 32 inch and you'd have a real long range revolving rifle, not no carbine . Look how long the Root is ! Theres a reason , powder burn rate of 2ff , yup .

Das Jaeger

bigbadgun
July 9, 2009, 08:55 AM
being added to rolls here is an honor but now I really need to get a Dragoon.
Thanks Aussie. Kind of nice in here the only thing missing is a Fridge full of Fosters.

madcratebuilder
July 9, 2009, 10:40 AM
The use of the word Dragoon, to identify Sam Colt's 7 1/2 inch barrel .44 caliber revolving pistol, manufactured circa 1848 as a follow on to the larger 9 inch barrel .44, for issue to cavalry and mounted infantry in northern Mexico and the southwestern territories of the US, was not by Colt's Manufacturing Company nor any federal or territorial constituency, but rather by collectors well after the gun had been retired from general usage.

mykeal is quit correct about the "Dragoon" name. 1st, 2nd and 3rd Model Dragoon is used by collectors to distinguish between variations in manufacturing.

The first one thousand Dragoons were referred to as "second contract" pistols. From reading copies of original Colt ledgers I also see them (Dragoons) referred to as "Colt second Model Holster Pistol" and "Colt third Model Holster Pistol"

I have a Colt book that has a page on the origins of the "Dragoon" name. I'll add to this when I find it.

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 10:54 AM
and so am I . :D

Das Jaeger

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 9, 2009, 01:31 PM
AussieTH..If it will be possible for you to do so, when the gunsmith turn's those barrels I want to see a copy of the test results. I don't care how "Oh! It's so pretty!" it is with the cylinder whitened or the fancy engraving or whatever. (a damn gun is not supposed to be pretty. it's supposed to be well built, well balanced, accurate and kept cleaned and oiled and ready to go. [kept loaded is optional] if someone need's something to hang on the wall and admire and worship before then let them get a picture of the Last Supper) If it dosen't have a good accurate barrel on it then the gun is not worth a damn and is fit only to be thrown away. I read where you stated the barrels will be top notch. We'll see. If they are good barrels I'll buy a gun from you. Two of them actually. I want to make a present of them to my son. Thank you for your consideration....

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 01:41 PM
Douglas class would be nice :D

Das Jaeger

arcticap
July 9, 2009, 05:18 PM
and I could be wrong here , but the Remington 58 was in 22" and 24" , not 18" ever .
I also don't think the extra four to six inches would make a hill of beans in weight , with a gun thats going to weight 7 or 8 pounds anyway . If you havea 14" trigger pull which I really enjoy , 22" or 24" is minimally perfect for balance anyway . Center of gravity on a gun like this is going to be the body of the gun , not the stock , not the barrel , you'd be good to go Mate .
Heck, make me one in 32 inch and you'd have a real long range revolving rifle, not no carbine . Look how long the Root is ! Theres a reason , powder burn rate of 2ff , yup .

Das Jaeger

There are some differences to note between the Root rifle and the Walker & Dragoon.

1. The Colt 1855 model was originally made in both 10 & 20 gauge as a shotgun and in calibers as diverse as .36 & .56.
That means that the cylinders and chambers were larger and could hold more powder which would make more sense to have a longer barrel.
The Root rifle had a side hammer and being a different design, it may not have even presented the same problem with hammer blowback from those heavier powder charges.

2. The most important consideration would be how much barrel length is required to efficiently burn the powder that's loaded in each chamber.
If the horse pistols were only intended to have much shorter barrels, then what additional burning efficiency & velocity would be gained by having a barrel longer than 18 inches?

3. A longer and heavier barrel without a forestock for support and to help hold it steadier while keeping both hands behind the cylinder? I could be wrong but I don't agree.
Shorter barrels promote faster target aquisition and have been shown to be handier and easier to hold steadier, especially without having a useable & holdable forestock.
It's only in the prototype stage but having a shorter barrel seems like a matter of applying conventional wisdom that's based on prior successful horse pistol conversion designs and their barrel lengths. :)

Das Jaeger
July 9, 2009, 06:30 PM
on all those theorys I suppose ?
One thing I do know for sure is 60 Grains is 60 grains , yup , thats a Musket charge too . Longer barrel , better burn time with 2ff . :D
18"s is probably just fine and dandy though . Conical or RB is going to effect this greatly too I figure .

Das Jeager :)

AussieTH
July 9, 2009, 07:41 PM
GOTC -no probs mate - I will disclose full details on the barrels, need folk to be comfortable and know what they are getting!. Gotta get one made first to do that though!

ALSO - We want the LRE to look nice - but no show pony! It is intended to be a working gun.

Aye.

T.

NobleSniper
July 9, 2009, 08:46 PM
Did Uberti make the 3rd model Dragoons cut for a stock and not make stocks for them?? Why I ask is I just made a offer on a unfired 25 year old Uberti #rd model cut for the shoulder stock ;)

AussieTH
July 9, 2009, 09:02 PM
Hah! Sniper. I get the feeling that maybe all the current UBs 3rd model are made cut for stocks plus the fourth screw fitted - have not seen one that is not recently - other than images on here.

I understand that stocks were made but then were discontinued - leaving only the 1860 and 1851 stocks avilable. But I am not sure on any of this other than good stocks are hard to get and the LRE project is virtually making it's own. More on that later - going shopping now.

Aye

T.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 9, 2009, 10:30 PM
AussieTH, Alright, good. That's what I was hoping to hear. My son, (like father like son) will be finishing up his 22 years in the Marine Corps (aka funny green bastard) in a few months and like's blackpowder firearms. He like's the .44 Cattleman's Carbine a lot but he wanted one with more power. He like's the idea of the LRE quite a lot. He and my daughter-in-law will be living way the hell back in there in Alaska and since both of them already own Walker revolvers (Uberti) this will give them more firepower; each with a strong revolver and carbine using interchangeable ammo between their guns and each other, etc..
Thank's a lot for replying to my post. Very kind and pleasant of you I must say...No hurry AussieTH. We'll give it time to get off the ground and tested out and everything....

Ratdog68
July 9, 2009, 10:47 PM
AussieTH, Alright, good. That's what I was hoping to hear. My son, (like father like son) will be finishing up his 22 years in the Marine Corps (aka funny green bastard) in a few months and like's blackpowder firearms. He like's the .44 Cattleman's Carbine a lot but he wanted one with more power. He like's the idea of the LRE quite a lot. He and my daughter-in-law will be living way the hell back in there in Alaska and since both of them already own Walker revolvers (Uberti) this will give them more firepowere; each with a strong revolver and carbine using interchangeable ammo between their guns and each other, etc..
Thank's a lot for replying to my post. Very kind and pleasant of you I must say...No hurry AussieTH. We'll give it time to get off the ground and tested out and everything....
Where 'bouts in Alaska? I spent 14 winters up there... 7 of those were above the Arctic Circle... longest 36yrs. of my life (those winters). LOL

sltm1
July 9, 2009, 11:46 PM
OK boy's, here's what's going on in the LRE project from my end.
1. This is a pic of my Walker laid up against the stock from an 1860, w/ a wax mock up of the new adaptor to connect the 2.
http://www.fmtc.com/~tfl1x/WalkerWax1.jpg
2. Pic of the wax so far....lot's left to do!!!
http://www.fmtc.com/~tfl1x/WalkerWax2.jpg
3. Comparison of original and what's in progress.
http://www.fmtc.com/~tfl1x/WalkerWax4.jpg
4. This pic shows where the 2 screws on each side are to be placed (in the dips), so that we have a 3 point stance on the stock (2 on the receiver on either side), with one on the base of the grip for security without having to modify the existing recoil shield.
http://www.fmtc.com/~tfl1x/WalkerWax5.jpg
Ok, so that's where we stand....somewhat shy of procrastination, but definitely not "Giddeyup" speed.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 9, 2009, 11:53 PM
Thank you much. Appreciate the links. Look's alright....

Ratdog68
July 9, 2009, 11:57 PM
sltm1... that's lookin' nice ! Keep up the good work, and thank you for sharing the pix with the rest of us.

Das Jaeger
July 10, 2009, 12:21 AM
in German Silver , no yellow brass , how about it ?
Darn I am picky aitn I . :D
Nice work , keep her up , thanks for keepin us posted . Thats sure gonna mess up my grips huh ? Yup , gonna have to make a beater pair .

Das Jeager :)

Oyeboten
July 10, 2009, 01:20 AM
Hi sltm1,



The Stock should be at a more angled convergence to the long axis of the Barrel...


Viz:


http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=133787697


In your first image...the bottom edge of the Stock is about parallel to the Barrel...


http://www.fmtc.com/~tfl1x/WalkerWax1.jpg



If held in a natural position...the Revolver would be pointing 'up' with this arrangement...instead of pointing horizontal.

sltm1
July 10, 2009, 02:12 AM
Oyeboten, I understand what you're pointing out, remember, these 3 pieces are merely laid together for the picture and nothing is a perfect fit yet. Also, the green wax bar at the bottom is supposed to be inside the wood, not showing at all. First we fit....then we diddle. Right now the important thing I need to get right is the height of the stock so the the sights are properly positioned to use.
Das Jaeger, I haven't set up with the caster yet so I'm not sure on the possible metal and color options.

AussieTH
July 10, 2009, 02:14 AM
Oyeboten. Doubtless Roland will be back shortly to give his reasons.

My first impression when I got these images in yesterday was that I much preferred the 'flowing lines' of the original factory 'coupling'. But as sltm1 pointed out - if you do this then you cannot actually look along the sights.

Having slept on it and come back to it I see another possible advantage. The revised arrangement gives much more room for the hands and forearms to get a good grip but stay well clear of the cylinder etc.

I would like to really thank Roland for posting. We are moving along well now and I want to make sure that all of you good folk are kept in the picture of how we are travelling. After all this is really a 'THR Project' - not just ours.

Another point is the only stock I could get hold of was for an 1860 Army and that revolver sits in a different position to the Walker currently in use. I am subsequently buying another five stocks but Roland will have to modify each the same way - but it will help once we can get the moulds done and just be churning them out.

I do not think it will be long before Roland has one of these out on the range and is banging away with it!

Aye

Tony

sltm1
July 10, 2009, 02:15 AM
Das, It shouldn't mess up the grips at all. It'll be resting primarily on the receiver, the back strap and he base of the handle. The inside could be lined with thin felt to protect the wood.

Ratdog68
July 10, 2009, 02:17 AM
Das, It shouldn't mess up the grips at all. It'll be resting primarily on the receiver, the back strap and he base of the handle. The inside could be lined with thin felt to protect the wood.
M'be some smooth glove leather... nice and thin.

sltm1
July 10, 2009, 02:29 AM
By the way, this is only about 75% finished so there will still be many modificatiions (like removing the extra knob on the bottom of the wax). Also, I can't actually force fit the pieces together, as the wax has to be over sized for shrinkage when cast and molded.

Ginormous
July 10, 2009, 06:37 AM
Can I get that in an aged patina? :D

Das Jaeger
July 10, 2009, 06:56 AM
is going to have to be done by a skilled stock maker . If someone were to want this project to have matching woods , there is only one way to do that , and its darn expensive . :D Then stock finish ? Hmmm , hand rubbed oils , hmm , spendy again . One peice fit grips , hmmm , spendy again . Installing a metal recoil pad and hand fitting the attatchment you come up
with to fit revolver well , hmm , spendy again . 99% out of the realm of what most people could or would ever afford to pay .
Just sometin that got me thinkin is all ?
I doubt the generic woods your going to get from Dixe are gonna cut it for most of the people wanting one of these , especailly with Uberti Orange finish on them . Not without refinishing them for certain .
Just thinkin out loud at 3:oo A.M West coast USA time .
I see it as a major obstacle trying to use pre-exhisting mediocre stocks for this high end project , and thats what it is is , high end custom guns , because you cant build these cheap . Thatsa fact jack m Jill . :D
The barrel set-up alone is going to be outstadingly expensive , am sure . WHo's blueing these babies up anyway ? Your not gonna get allot of takers in the White I doubt .
Thinkin out loud :uhoh:

Das Jaeger , not trying to be the pesimist , but lookin at my reality $$$$$$ , realistically . :D:banghead:

Oyeboten
July 10, 2009, 07:11 AM
'Semi-Finished' Castings and Wood...


Let the purchaser/end-user complete as they see fit...

Das Jaeger
July 10, 2009, 07:17 AM
that could be fondled and thought about for sure . :)
Limits the sell to only talented people though . It could be an option though for sure to offer that option though .
I am thinkin you guys have no real idea what it costs or what time it takes to build guns though , let alone trying to break even on cost . You'll be workin for free , trust me . :D

Das Jaeger :)

Ginormous
July 10, 2009, 07:45 AM
If historically innovative projects of the past were guided by your premises, little to nothing would have changed in the human condition, and we'd still be launching spears at game animals with the atlatl. Sometimes people do things, just because they can. :D

StrawHat
July 10, 2009, 07:49 AM
AussieTH,

Here's mine,

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/2ndDragoon002Small.jpg

Built in 1965 and imported by Replica Arms, Marietta, Ohio.

Three digit serial number.

She's old and seen some use but still dependable.

I designed a rifle around this frame. Fixed stock, 20" barrel, built it and sold it. No pictures but too heavy for what it offered.

There was also a Springfield Model 1855 single shot pistol with a detachable stock. It was known as a Dragoon Pistol, and a bunch of European pistols carried the name of Dragoon. If Colt used it, he certainly was alone in it's use.

Das Jaeger
July 10, 2009, 11:54 AM
I aint sayin it can't or shoudln't be done did I ? Tis just not going to make money unless you have machines turning this stuff out. People are too cheap , everyone wants sometin for nuttin .
Its obvious they are doing it for the love of the guns , duh . :D :what::banghead:
Did I say DON'T do it ? No I did not . I just wanted to make clear there aint no money in it , thats all .
My Premises are sound , not everyone can afoord guns like this . Actaully its such a tight market too for people that would even want one ? It isn't like tis a practicle gun you know, or one that you'd really want to be putting 60 grains of 2FF and lighting it off in your face without a welders helmet on either . Its a NICHE' gun fora particular Niche' of people , and it isn't even close to authentic at this point yet or ever , so that even makes it less desireable to the general Niche' .
Hey I am just bein real here , sorry you don't like it . But I never said don't do it . :D
Heck man, I do this to all my guns , I just want them to be aware of certain things as they go forward , been there done this , do this . I commend them for trying too , its a daunting task indeed, especially the trying to make it affordable to the people whom would buy it , and to make it nice enough to want to buy .

Das Jaeger

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 10, 2009, 01:39 PM
I see where you're going. I went to the links and studied them and I see what you have in mind. Go ahead. Just fit it all together sir. Take your time. Make it strong and solid, and dependable and accurate. If so then I'll buy a couple just like I said. If I have to I (and maybe my son) can spend one day and get the wood Tru-oiled down and looking good and blue the metal parts. Go to the Walker club and search around and you'll find pictures of my Walker and I think one of my K-Bar. I think I'vd got photographs scattered here and there all through the Club. Hell, might even be a picture of the 1st Model in there somewhere. Used to be anyway but I might have pulled it down. Study them. I think you'll see I know how to blue. (to my own satisfaction anyway) If that boy of mine think's he can do a better job then he and his wife can have at it. (dosen't mean I want to buy a couple completely in the white although if push come to shove and everything else being equal I would if that's what was called for)...I think you're doing alright, especially considering that ya'll conceived and started this project from somewhere around minus zero point s***.Thank's again for the links and have a good day, sir....

sltm1
July 10, 2009, 02:17 PM
Das, Jaeger, I think your points are well made....however, we, bp shooter's, are supporting a niche industry already and you are one of it's staunchest supporters judging from your collection. The LRE isn't going to be for everyone, but instead of buying several more off the shelf reproductions, wouldn't there be a class of people looking for something unique? Breaking even and owning something totally in a class by it'self is pretty good payback don'tchathink? As far as 60g of fff going of in my face, I'm going to get a conversion cylinder for mine and that won't be an issue.

Das Jaeger
July 10, 2009, 07:15 PM
it is for the few , and the elite that realy MUST have one , die hards if you will . :D
Maybe I am being too negative sounding today ? I will watch that in myself . I just got a littlel overwhelmed after I got the e-mail of the task at hand last night from you guys of this project , I had to sit down, write down actual hours and costs as I see it , and its daunting , too me .
I actualy wish Uberti or Pietta would make a special run of 100 barrelled front ends , milled on the Dragoon 3rd model for us ?
I just cannot imagine the time involed milling a front end barrel of the 3rd or
2nd or 1st Model and jsut how much time and effort that tis going to take ?
Making those fit the Ubeerti Dragoons is going to be an art and lesson in itself .
What is your plan on that, and who do you have doing them,a nd what is your barrel made from, specs, everyhting , I would love to know more ?
I wish Val was still alive, I would call him and at least ask if he could do the production run for us , but his son is no Val Sr.
Dont like bad mouthing folks, but that company aint what it used to be thats for sure . I am sure Val Jr. is a great guy and all , but Val Sr. LOVED his guns .
He would be very into probably running that run for nothing to littel just cost thats how much he loved this sport . Crap ! :cuss:

Das Jaeger, oplogize to everyone if I sounded down about it, I am not down about it, I am just looking at my view of it today , and am overwhelmed with costs and time at present about it > Without some major sponsorship from a BIG gunmaker or someone that tis retired and has nothing better to do . :confused:






.

AussieTH
July 10, 2009, 09:14 PM
Hmmm!! Das Jegear – I am not taking issue with you because your points are valid – but are they? That depends a lot on the perspective point of origin. Your point of origin is one of experience and hands on knowledge – so should be heeded.

I have said repeatedly now that this is not a money making project but neither is it a charity of some form. I will be happy to break even. Not everyone can be involved in that sort of thing and like, apparently yourself, personal circumstances may not allow the time away from money making ventures, family commitments etc. That is fair enough.

My perspective point of origin is much as Ginormous expressed – some people do things because they can. That is what I do and have done so most of my life. I take on things that others say are impossible and complete them.

But there is nothing impossible about this project because we KNOW it can happen. There was the LRE on gunbroker that went for $1000. I had the money for it waiting and we missed it – too bad! But it was there- finished and usable. Then there was the image of the 3rd model Dragoon LRE – complete and finished! Still got to track that one down!

A point on bluing. The Draggie LRE was totally in the white and just accentuated by it’s stocks, it looked Very Nice like that (to my eyes anyway). Bluing is not a big deal in any case and the cylinders are planned to stay in the white.

In more general terms – Yes you are being negative (but I accept that you are doing so from a positively intended base with good intentions). However getting any project going – for anything – starting off with “I will tell you why it will not work” is not a positive motivational starting point for anyone. Maybe it is for me because it just gives an edge to my resolve!

Anyway – thank you for your contributions they are appreciated. We will not just hang around and ‘see how it turns out’ all of us will be working firmly to make it turn out in the best possible manner.

Aye

Tony

BCRider
July 10, 2009, 11:03 PM
I hate to say it but Das is right. This is a rather unique little (and I emphasize the "little") group of Walker Lovers. If we need to rely on this group here to make this venture successful then they will sell for custom work prices from the get go. And how many would sell if they need to run at the same as the Walker purchase pirice in the first place.

To achieve any significant price reduction from the full custom point there needs to be considerable numbers sold. And of the Walkers out there now many would learn of this stock kit and want one? Let's just say that it may not qualify as a flood of intrest and sales.

sltm1
July 11, 2009, 12:21 AM
BCRider, So what, you ever recoup the $$ you spent chasing love? How about tobacco, liquor or rent? This may be the Deloren of gun's, but look how appreciated the Deloren auto is now. Making a mark is sometimes more important than making a profit. What are you guy's going to be remembered for?

BCRider
July 11, 2009, 01:28 AM
HEY! I LOVE stuff like this. As long as the folks doing it don't go in thinking they'll be the next Bill Gates then GREAT!

I've been doing some CAD'ing on a cap loader for our Remington 1858's. If it works and a few folks manage to benefit from it then I'll smile. But I'm under no impression that I'll suddenly be able to buy acreage with the profits.

sackettboys
July 11, 2009, 09:32 AM
From time to time while surfin' the web late at night, I come across interesting gun pics that I save. Here's a couple that I think you all will enjoy. Unfortunately I don't remember the websites I found them on. My nephew has a Uberti Walker and I would send them to him and ask him when is his Walker going to "grow up" and be like these.....

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/sackettboys/walkercarbine.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/sackettboys/walkercarbineproject.jpg

AussieTH
July 11, 2009, 06:36 PM
Many thanks for those images. I would appreciate you posting more info if you dig anything out.

T.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
July 12, 2009, 12:42 AM
Haven't gotten to my cable yet but I remembered earlier today that I'vd got lot's of pictures on 'PhotoBucket'. I don't remember my user name and password. I'vd got four large notebooks here that are buldging with e-mail addresses, dot org's, dot gov's and dot com's. Damned phone numbers and passwords scribbled all over the place and I have no idea this side of the hot place what 90% of them go to. I remember all my stuff is on there. I don't have a lot of different kind's of guns, just several of the few ones I carefully chose after much worrying. I'm picky as hell, and I couldn't afford to make a mistake or be caught short. I'vd only got one of the 1st Model though. (Uberti) I remember I'vd got 2 or 3 photographs of it on PhotoBucket. Well, I'll get it worked out.
My son and his wife are very interested in the LRE. They're paying for one of them and I'm paying for the other one as a kind of happy birthday, merry Christmas, congratulations on your retirement and hope a bear dosen't eat your ass up kind of present....

NobleSniper
July 12, 2009, 12:59 AM
I am very much looking forward to getting a LRE as well ;)

AussieTH
July 12, 2009, 02:22 AM
Many thanks for the expressions of confidence guys - but let us get them here and working before we start thinking about buying or selling them.

Aye

Tony

Ginormous
July 12, 2009, 04:53 AM
They're paying for one of them and I'm paying for the other one as a kind of happy birthday, merry Christmas, congratulations on your retirement and hope a bear dosen't eat your ass up kind of present....There's a signature line in there somewhere, GOTC. That's just humor gold.

After BCRider's "Just like a dysfunctional family, eh?" remark, this is the second most funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. My ribs are hurting, and it's too early for that. :D

Ratdog68
July 12, 2009, 12:03 PM
After BCRider's "Just like a dysfunctional family, eh?" remark, this is the second most funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. :D

We resemble that remark !! :neener:

NobleSniper
July 12, 2009, 12:09 PM
:D ditto

DoubleDeuce 1
July 12, 2009, 03:06 PM
Here is the link to the photo I was trying to put up. It is of a Dragoon and an 1851 Navy.

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t330/madwhirlygig/DSC00667.jpg

Ratdog68
July 12, 2009, 03:08 PM
Purdy !!

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t330/madwhirlygig/DSC00667.jpg

StrawHat
July 16, 2009, 07:17 AM
Four days since the last post, just a BTT.

madcratebuilder
July 16, 2009, 08:34 AM
Nice looking 2nd gens.

madcratebuilder
July 18, 2009, 09:35 AM
Just to push this back to the top, here's a fluted Dragoon for your viewing enjoyment.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/fluteddrg01.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/fluteddrg03.jpg

Olmontanaboy
July 18, 2009, 09:44 AM
That's a sharp looking horse pistol. Who is the manufacturer?

madcratebuilder
July 18, 2009, 10:32 AM
3rd gen Colt # F1743, 3rd Model Dragoon with Fluted cylinder and silver backstrap, about as fancy as a standard Dragoon gets. Almost to pretty to shoot.

Olmontanaboy
July 18, 2009, 10:36 AM
Almost to pretty to shoot.
Yeah, It's a beauty for sure.

NobleSniper
July 18, 2009, 11:46 AM
If I remember correct Colt only made (originally) either 12 or 15 of those fluted cylinder dragoons............ I havce a old Colt Blackpowder catalog that has a pic of one in it. Yours is the only one I have ever seen. Very nice !!!! :D

madcratebuilder
July 18, 2009, 01:54 PM
I have not found any build number information on the 3rd gens. I do know that this model was in production from 96 to 2000. Mine is a type 1 and is considered scarce, what ever that means. The type 2, same as the 1 but cut for a shoulder stock and considered very rare. I have never seen one.

NobleSniper
July 18, 2009, 02:07 PM
MCB, the numbers I gave were for the original 1800's Colt build. I do know that tha model is a rare one though. I never see them. Thanks for sharing a nice one ;)

bigbadgun
July 18, 2009, 07:23 PM
I sure do like that fluted cylinder

Das Jaeger
July 21, 2009, 07:52 PM
Hows your endevour going on this build , any proto-types built yet ?
So , once again , who is your barrel maker and where are the piccys ?
I wish I was retired and rich , I would love to build all this for free , would be a hoot . Have ya tried getting ahold of Pietta or Uberti with your ideas and explain your circumstance and see if they can help out ? Couldn't hurt :)

If your like me , your too busy . :)

Das Jaeger :D

messerist
July 21, 2009, 09:51 PM
Madcrate and Ratdog you forgot the "droolbucket" protocol! Now I need a bar towel.:banghead:

Ratdog68
July 22, 2009, 12:20 AM
Madcrate and Ratdog you forgot the "droolbucket" protocol! Now I need a bar towel.:banghead:
Sorry... I can't take any blame... all I did was take Double Duece's link and offer it up as a viewable pic. I can only wish I belonged to those puppies.

AussieTH
July 22, 2009, 02:51 AM
Kien namen und kien pic ach kein prototypes - so nicht to take pics of.

Should not be too long now. The gunsmith is a Canadian and has been building guns for over 20 years - came very highly recommended from gun circles around here. Currently operates out of Toowoomba Queensland.

sltm1 is still flogging on with the stock modifications so we are on track.

TmC 4232 did try Uberti and sent them the concept pics but did not get any replu at all. my local gun brokers all have a low opionion of UBerti communications and will not even forward requests even though they sell the guns and are usually out of stock.

As soon as I have something solid it will be straight on here!!!!

Aye

Tony

Ratdog68
July 22, 2009, 03:10 AM
Don't know whether it's of any help... "Benelli" is the US distributor of Uberti... they may have an in-road to the right people. Try customer2@benelliusa.com

mykeal
July 22, 2009, 08:07 AM
Benelli may be able to help. Uberti has always been very poor at customer communications, despite a few attempts by Aldo and their web site consultant to correct that.

Das Jaeger
July 22, 2009, 09:56 AM
Just curious was all , appreciate the update . :)

I am hoping your were standing at attention when you were adressing me in your elequant Germanic rant :D Salute would have been in order too you know , I didn't see any ! :D
Fortuntely I am Polish and American Indain not Austrian like Hitler , and despise the coward , FYI . :)
But I do apprecaite your ackward way of telling me I am Raging Lunatic :D

Looks like the project needs some money is all . :)
Did your barrel idea go liek this ; get nice barrel blanks screw into block of steel that connects to frame , or are you gonna try to mill that out of huge steel one piece rigs then bore and cut rifling?

Das Jeager

AussieTH
July 23, 2009, 05:11 AM
Aye Jaeger,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I too wish that you could build an LRE – it would do you the power of good even if it stuffed your personal life in the process.

Yup the thinking is going down your track. Milling a barrel and lug assembly out of a single block sounds a bit extreme for something the size required. So it will be a machined lug best barrel we can get rifled and tapped into the lug etc etc. The main hassle is there are so many varieties of Walker and they all have to be accurately measured – particularly the dowels that connect the frame to the lug.

I do not want to get into any racial type stuff mate. You have fine bloodlines in you that you should be (and certainly are most proud of). I have fond memories of friends in a Polish flying club that I became associated with – they were all as mad as meat axes but damn they had guts and were top pilots. I particularly liked the extreme courtesy and manners they extended to their ladies. Manners and politeness cost virtually nothing but paint a huge canvass of the source that is generating them!!!!

Hitler’s courage or otherwise has no interest for myself. I greatly enjoyed my years living in Germany (particularly Barvaria). The food and beer was great the girls were wonderful. I regret I never learnt enough of the german tounge. Just enough to get me a meal, drink, bed, girl and the flying that I had to have at that time of my life.

Hitler’s courage or otherwise has no interest for myself. I greatly enjoyed my years living in Germany (particularly Barvaria). The food and beer was great the girls were wonderful. I regret I never learnt enough of the german tounge. Just enough to get me a meal, drink, bed, girl and the flying that I had to have at that time of my life.

You go easy Jaeger – you do fantastic work on your guns and especially, share that with us – which is so much appreciated.

Aye

Tony.

Ginormous
July 23, 2009, 09:52 AM
I call Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) on this thread.

AussieTH
July 23, 2009, 09:36 PM
Hey D/J,

Thanks - good to know you are likely to still be around. As I said from the outset, money is not seen as a problem and is even less so now as I have a pile coming in from a bequest. On a broad brush basis if the project ran short I only have to sell one of my small fleet of aircraft to cash up again. I have actually just sold another which is good as now I can buy some more guns.

AussieTH
July 23, 2009, 09:44 PM
Ginormous. Interesting! I had not heard of that one before. I am not sure that invoking it is valid though. Jaeger and I had not actually declared any formal debate in terms of either us 'winning' it! Besides life may not be worth living around here whwn JAEGEr WAKES UP that somwbody has decided that he has 'lost'!!!!!

Anyway - happyDAYS1!

Ginormous
July 23, 2009, 10:06 PM
AussieTH, you may have a valid point there.

Nevertheless, I reserve my right as the first to call Godwin should the thread logic continue to the point of reductio ad Hitlerum. :D

Pishaa.

kiwiwalker
July 24, 2009, 07:34 PM
My 1st Model Dragoon (Uberti)
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc337/gwbar123/drag1.jpg

Can you add me

Cheers from down under

AussieTH
July 24, 2009, 08:53 PM
Very nice Draggie kiwi - you are in mate. You will be taking the Member # 3 slot that Jaeger requested to vacate.

Ay

Tony

Ratdog68
July 24, 2009, 09:18 PM
So? Do Walker owners qualify since it's listed as the "unofficial Walker/Dragoon..." ? I don't have a Draggie, but have a Walker... and am interested in the LRE facet.

AussieTH
July 24, 2009, 10:18 PM
Aye Rattie you are in on the strength of you services to these forums, BUt hop out and buy a whitneyville Dragoon quick as someone (Probably Scrat will be complaing of member poaching!!!!!:evil:

Personally I do not mind - the Walker and the Dragoons are all Horse Pistols and hold a special place of their own. I have got to get me Whitneyville as it was the 'Transition Walker'!

Aye

T.

Ratdog68
July 24, 2009, 10:48 PM
Aye Rattie you are in on the strength of you services to these forums, BUt hop out and buy a whitneyville Dragoon quick as someone (Probably Scrat will be complaing of member poaching!!!!!:evil:

Personally I do not mind - the Walker and the Dragoons are all Horse Pistols and hold a special place of their own. I have got to get me Whitneyville as it was the 'Transition Walker'!

Aye

T.
Grassy-Ass Ameeeeego. :D Oh... in due time... a Draggie will be added to the stable... no doubt 'bout that.

Old Fuff
July 25, 2009, 09:11 AM
In my conversations with Col. Colt (they don't call me OLD Fuff for nothing) we often refered to the Dragoons as "Walker Jr." revolvers... :neener: :D

Ratdog68
August 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
Any rumors on when a feller might be able to look into ordering a kit for his Walker? Things've been a little quiet on the topic as of late... figured I'd rattle yer cage and make sure you're not overdosed on Vegamite sammiches.

theotherwaldo
August 13, 2009, 09:47 PM
I've been following your project with a good bit of interest. I was distantly involved with a similar project. The original goal was to make a simple revolving .44 cap & ball carbine with a permanently mounted stock.

We wound up with three completely different carbines: a Walker/Dragoon, a '51 Colt, and (most successful) a '59 Remington.

The Walker came first. The smith chopped away the round part of the barrel, bored out the stub, threaded in a .45 barrel from some kit or other, dressed a forcing cone, and then started work on the other end.

The buttstock was even simpler. It was pistol-gripped, of course, with the back half of the grip irons replaced by stock-mounting tangs. The stock was supposed to be based on the look of a '94 Winchester but it wound up looking more like a stock from an M-79 Grenade Launcher. Ah, well.

The '51 Colt went better... at first. The barrel mounting was difficult-looking. Our mad machinist removed the barrel as a cylindrical section, removed additional material to allow weld space, arranged a pin jig to hold the barrel and mount stub in the proper relationship, and did the weld (MIG, I think.)

The stock went much better, and looked pretty nice.

The problem was that the cylinder spindle, frame pins, and wedge weren't strong enough in this case. Things worked loose pretty quickly.

The Remington was plain vanilla. Turn out the old barrel, turn in a longer one. Even the grip frame was untouched. The stock was fitted to match the grip irons on the left side, and an almost stock pistol grip was used on the right. Biggest mod on the grip was the two slightly larger bolts that held the two halves together.

My contribution? I scrounged up the (failed) '51 Colt and did the drawings for the tang castings used in mounting the Walker/Dragoon stocks.

BHP FAN
August 27, 2009, 03:08 AM
I just got a Uberti USMR Dragoon,can I join?

Smokin_Gun
August 27, 2009, 03:20 AM
Congrads on the Uberti Dragoon BHP Fan...

messerist
August 27, 2009, 06:57 AM
OK, now I have a vision of Aussie riding in a Kangaroo's pouch wielding his Dragoons hollerin' "Remember Gallipoli!":)

BHP FAN
August 27, 2009, 11:08 PM
It's the real deal alright...straight from Italy!

BHP FAN
August 28, 2009, 01:45 AM
Its got ''Model USMR'' on the cylinder,which I'm guessing is for U.S. Mounted Rifles, and a battle scene with Plains Indians and 1840's mounted Army guys all over it.

Ginormous
August 28, 2009, 03:21 AM
BHP Fan, you of all people know how this game is played . . . pics or GTHO! :D

BHP FAN
August 28, 2009, 03:30 AM
Well,I am currently sans camera,but when the boy stops by...probably tomorrow?

Ginormous
August 28, 2009, 03:51 AM
And, as always, my scanner is available as necessary. :D

madcratebuilder
August 28, 2009, 11:00 AM
Congrats on the new Dragoon BHP. 1st, 2nd or 3rd model?

BHP FAN
August 28, 2009, 04:08 PM
I'm thinking 2nd model because of the square back trigger guard?

BHP FAN
August 28, 2009, 04:11 PM
''And, as always, my scanner is available as necessary... ''

Thanks Ginormous,it may come to that as often as I see the boy anymore.Between his job,and mine,and the odd hours we're both forced to keep...

Ginormous
August 28, 2009, 04:22 PM
BHP Fan, I believe the following is correct:

1st Model - squared trigger guard and oval cylinder stop
2nd Model - squared trigger guard and rectangular cylinder stops
3rd Model - round trigger guard and rectangular cylinder stops

BHP FAN
August 28, 2009, 06:32 PM
Check,square back trigger guard,rectangular notches...

BHP FAN
August 29, 2009, 07:26 PM
thank you sir.My redhead bought it for me,which is a first.first time in 30 years she's bought me a gun,and at the low,low birthday price of $125.00!

husker
August 29, 2009, 08:11 PM
with sad puppy dog eyes.tell her you dont want anything. maybe she will feel sorry for you & get you a gun. If it isn't a gun. WELL it's really nothing anyway.

Smokin_Gun
August 30, 2009, 01:10 AM
What exactly am I doing wrong here ?

You're married and not a Bachelor...there's two things :O)

But you are forunate to have all you do have... must have an understanding wife, or hidden safes.

madcratebuilder
August 30, 2009, 09:56 AM
What exactly am I doing wrong here ?

You're married and not a Bachelor...there's two things :O)


Reminds me of an old post divorce bumper sticker I had back in the eighties.

"Some men are fools, others are single."

Ratdog68
August 30, 2009, 12:15 PM
Sounds to me like she needs to come to a realization of:

She can buy a shelf gun for herself and a BP pistola for you...
THEN she can get that shelf gun of her's finely TUNED... and be money ahead for the next round. :evil:
Or... she can buy herself ONE tuned gun and spend even more money.

NobleSniper
August 30, 2009, 08:32 PM
I been wondering........... where in the world is AussieTH and Gentelamn of the Charcoal?? Been a good spell since I have seen any of them on here :uhoh:

Ginormous
August 31, 2009, 06:30 PM
BHP Fan's 2nd Model 1848 Colt Dragoon replica! AussieTH, time for another induction!

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt218/bhpfan/IMG_0121.jpg

BHP FAN
August 31, 2009, 06:36 PM
Thank you Sir!

BHP FAN
August 31, 2009, 06:37 PM
It's truly a ''ginormous'' pistola!

Das Jaeger
September 1, 2009, 07:27 AM
Isn't that just beautiful , nice gun :D
They are rather Gihugous aren't they :D ..As fun to shoot as they are to admire for sure :) ...........
I still find it humorus my Pappy carried one of these for the Federal Marshals as thier airplane inspector , as his carry gun in the truck travelin to an from State to State :D ... Certainly rings a bell of Wild Bill to me :D ..Crazy Indian anyway , apple didn't fall far from that tree either . :D
Congrats , very nice specimen of one of Colts finest in my opinion .


Das Jaeger

BHP FAN
September 1, 2009, 05:08 PM
ya know,normally I prefer the Remmies,but this thing just grows on ya! I just hope it don't get much bigger...or I'm going to need suspenders!

Ginormous
September 1, 2009, 05:29 PM
When it digests a few caps in the internals you'll remember why you loved the Remmies so much. But yeah, that great big honking size has some serious draw power to it.

BHP FAN
September 1, 2009, 07:16 PM
I'm going to NEED ''some serious draw power'' to get it out of the holster..!
...so,am I ''in''?

madcratebuilder
October 3, 2009, 11:01 AM
This thread needs to come back to the top so here's a new to me Dragoon.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/asmdragoon01.jpg

NobleSniper
October 3, 2009, 11:03 AM
Sweet!!!!! ;)

Ratdog68
October 3, 2009, 11:54 AM
Yum !!! That's a nice one, for certain !! And, a scabb' for it too ! :cool:

Smokin_Gun
October 3, 2009, 12:56 PM
MCB remember the the gift of giving is the best gift of all... my birthday's commin' in DEC ... :O)

Smokin_Gun
October 3, 2009, 01:00 PM
CONGRADS on that beautiful Dragoon Carbine.

madcratebuilder
October 3, 2009, 01:24 PM
Thanks guys. I just cleaned up the front sight a bit. Someone milled a dovetail slot in the end of the barrel at some point it time and then cold soldered a thick blade in the slot. The end was discolored from the heat. I filed the extra globes of solder off and gave it a quick cold blue. I can live with that for now. Surface rust in the chambers and face of the cylinder, bore is not pitted. Needs a new hand as the carry up is short, barrel gap is good at .010, normal wear and tear for a thirty three year old war horse. Shoulder stock has normal small dings, no gouges. I should be able to steam out the dings and refinish with no problems. Scabbard cleaned up nice, was originally brown and has a dye job. I think I have all the winter projects I can deal with now. I'm leaning toward removing all marking when I reblue, not sure about that yet.

Nice wood ob this thing, it well look great with several coats of tung oil.


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/asmdragoon03.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/asmdragoon02.jpg

Oyeboten
October 3, 2009, 05:13 PM
Hi madcratebuilder,


Wow...


That is really nice!


Tin Cans falling at 100 yards now, like nuthin'...


Have you a Dragoon 'Avenging Angel' as a 'b.u.g.'?

messerist
October 3, 2009, 10:56 PM
Are you still accepting members to the club. He is my latest acquisition. Uberti/Cimarron 3rd Model Dragoon.
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/messerist/sept09138.jpg

Oyeboten
October 4, 2009, 12:46 AM
Here too!

My new-to-me 'San Marcos' 3rd Dragoon


http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/42948/2843017350067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2843017350067835264gbnOZB)

madcratebuilder
October 4, 2009, 01:06 AM
How do you like your ASM? I think they are way under rated myself. It's possible i have only encountered good ones.

CAMPBELL49T
October 4, 2009, 02:06 AM
I guess I'm going to have to figure out photo bucket. Or how to down load them on THR. I want to join....with a 3rd model Dragoon. Been looking all over for a Walker. I have found some but I can't afford to buy them.

madcratebuilder
October 4, 2009, 10:12 AM
Been looking all over for a Walker. I have found some but I can't afford to buy them.

This looks like a good deal, even if you need to replace the hand and bolt.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141889043

bigbadgun
October 4, 2009, 10:34 AM
Every body needs to buy some leather so I can buy then lol.

CAMPBELL49T
October 7, 2009, 12:27 PM
I missed the auction. But still looking.

armyof1
November 22, 2009, 04:40 PM
hi .. guys .. am i in the right section with this one , made by PIETTA .44 cal smooth bore , 25 inch barrel ..... they used to be on shotgun licence till 1997 then with change of law they were put on section 1 firearms licence , do you like it ?? it did not take me much time to make my mind up as soon as the photo"s arrived from the gun dealer , it cost me £90 uk pounds, that was 3 years ago ........ ps . BIGBADGUN can you make holsters this big .!!!!!!!!

missuramoss
November 22, 2009, 04:49 PM
I'm just speechless on that one.......Pietta made that??

armyof1
November 22, 2009, 05:09 PM
that what is says on the barrel, pietta .44 cal blackpowder only , do you want photo of markings on barrel , i could get it rifled as its now on section one firearms licence but then it would not be original if i did that , i think they were made about 20 years ago by pietta from what people say for the shotgun shooters , i will check the proof markings and get back with the proper date ......
checked the proof marking and its AE - so that makes it 1979 , going of the info BIGBADGUN gave me , and thanks again to him as now i have dated all my repro blackpowder guns .........

missuramoss
November 22, 2009, 05:40 PM
Oh, I'm not doubtin ya at all there Armyof1..Its just that I've never seen a Pietta with a 25" bbl before. JMHO...but I'd leave it just as is, except for maybe get a steel frame for it and go grizz huntin.......Very nice Armyof1...Very nice!!

Old Fuff
November 22, 2009, 05:40 PM
Ruger made some long barreled revolvers in the 16 to 18 inch range for export to the U. K. Apparently because of the barrel length they were legal.

The European cap & ball revolver manufacturers make a lot of models that aren't exported to the U.S. What we see are those products that our importers are willing to buy. The importers in turn are very conservative when it comes to going out on a limb on something that might be expensive, and have limited appeal. Flood folks like Dixie, Cimarron, EMF, and Taylor with e-mails and letters, and something might happen.

madd trapper
November 22, 2009, 06:07 PM
Last week I bought a whitneyville dragoon from Midway. The day I received it , I took it apart and cleaned it. All I can say man, this pistol is tight . Especially putting it back together. I took it to the range and tried the dragoon at twenty five yards and I was impressed .Using .457 cal round balls and 45 grains of powder. My question will this dragoon get easier to put back together the more I use it ?

BHP FAN
November 22, 2009, 06:13 PM
yes.

cheatin charlie
November 22, 2009, 06:48 PM
I received my Uberti Walker I bought on GB last week. Unfired with the
box. The date code is BD that makes it 1994? My question is the barrel
and grip looks like it is charcoal bluing or fire bluing. Are all Uberti Walkers
finished that way or just the older ones? I bought it to shoot Josey
Whaleys at our local SASS clubs. I shot it today at about 15 yards
off hand and windage was good but only 4 or 5 inches high. Perfect for
SASS shotgun targets. Filled chambers with 2f Goex and round ball on top,
What a blast, sounds like a cannon and shoots smoke downrange big time.
What a blast, I had a smile on my face all the way home.

BHP FAN
November 22, 2009, 07:28 PM
Ya gotta love 'em.on a still day,ol' ''Puff'' will blow smoke rings...

madcratebuilder
November 23, 2009, 12:01 PM
hi .. guys .. am i in the right section with this one , made by PIETTA .44 cal smooth bore , 25 inch barrel ..... they used to be on shotgun licence till 1997 then with change of law they were put on section 1 firearms licence , do you like it ?? it did not take me much time to make my mind up as soon as the photo"s arrived from the gun dealer , it cost me £90 uk pounds, that was 3 years ago ........ ps . BIGBADGUN can you make holsters this big .!!!!!!!!
That is an amazing revolver, thanks for posting photos. Very unusual combination, a brass frame cut for a shoulder stock, steel back strap and a 25 inch smooth bore barrel, my gawd!

On closer inspection the frame is not cut for the shoulder stock, even more strange, that makes the shoulder stock unusual too.

armyof1
November 23, 2009, 02:07 PM
MADCRATEBUILDER more photo"s for you to have a look at ,!!!!!

toolslinger
November 25, 2009, 04:15 PM
Here is my Uberti 3rd Model with stripped and refinished grips and my home made holster
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/sotoolslinger/slinger/IMG_4397.jpg
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh50/sotoolslinger/slinger/IMG_4398.jpg

CAMPBELL49T
November 26, 2009, 02:02 PM
Good job on the holster. And your 3rd model and mine are twins.
I whish I could do leather work like that.

toolslinger
November 26, 2009, 07:15 PM
Thanks Campbell the leatherwork is not that difficult. I will be in the Denver area from the 28th thru Dec 15 or so . PM me and we'll go to Tandy and get you set up.

dlon21
December 11, 2009, 09:31 AM
... is used in the Dragoon revolvers? Only straight twist, or did they put in progressive twist in any gun from the factory?

madcratebuilder
December 11, 2009, 10:03 AM
... is used in the Dragoon revolvers? Only straight twist, or did they put in progressive twist in any gun from the factory?
If your talking replicas they are straight twist. Pietta makes a 1858 Remington "Shooters" model that is a progressive twist. That is the only one I'm aware of.

dlon21
December 11, 2009, 02:32 PM
No, I was wondering about all original Colt Dragoons, 1st, 2nd and 3rd models. Did they have progressive rifling?

armyof1
December 11, 2009, 06:55 PM
a guy in my club as got an original colt revolver, he told me it had progressive rifling, i don"t know what model or cal it is .

dlon21
December 11, 2009, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I know the Colt 1860 has progressive rifling, don't know about the 1861 Navy though.

Thing is, my original first model Dragoon has a straight twist, and I'm curious if all model 1848's had the same. The reason I'm wondering is because my barrel looks relined.

Old Fuff
December 11, 2009, 08:43 PM
I'll have to check my facts, but working from memory I believe that Colt's progressive rifling was introduced during the Paterson era (1836 - 1842) and continued to about 1877 in some models. Without question, the models 1848, 1849, 1851, 1860 and 1861 had gain-twist rifling.

StrawHat
December 12, 2009, 07:55 AM
Fuff's memory and mine are about the same. All Colts percussion and some cartridge revolvers had the gain twist.

Can you see the liner at the muzzle?

madcratebuilder
December 12, 2009, 09:07 AM
I concur with OH and SH. I recall reading about the twist rate on the original Colts but don't recall the particulars.

Old Fuff
December 12, 2009, 09:58 AM
On an original, unaltered Colt cap & ball revolver you can easily see the gain twist if you remove the barrel and look from the back end toward the muzzle. The rifling starts out straight (no twist) and then curves.

On non-gain twist barrels the rifling starts turning at once at the breech end. If looking at an expensive antique, do check for a liner.

dlon21
December 12, 2009, 10:44 AM
Thanks for all your informative answers, guys.

Yes, I believe I can see a liner, it's very obvious when looking at the breech but not so much from the muzzle.

I bought the gun from antiqueguns.com, didn't say anything about the barrel having been relined though, only mentioned the barrel condition upon my asking. That's bad, feel a bit tricked really :cuss:

Old Fuff
December 12, 2009, 11:18 AM
You are not the first. I've examined a number of antique guns that were well used and even abused, but had perfect bores. :rolleyes:

Have a professional gunsmith examine the barrel, and if he agrees there is a liner get his opinion in writing, and then contact the seller. Perhaps some adjustment in the price you paid can be made.

dlon21
December 12, 2009, 11:36 AM
.. I took the gun to a gunsmith a while back to have him make a forcing cone. He told me the gun was relined, no doubt he's right. I've intended to shoot this gun sometimes, as with all my other originals, so a nice bore isn't something bad. What's worse is I wasn't told, maybe the seller didn't know this fact about the gun. Don't know if I can require any money back, but I guess I should write him about this. The gun is really appealing to the eye otherwise, not at all abused. Just well used.

Old Fuff
December 12, 2009, 11:57 AM
The seller may or may not have missed the liner (if it has one, which seems to be the case), but professionals in the business of selling antiques should be experienced and knowledgeable enough to know what to look for. At a minimum if you inform them what happened they may be more careful in the future. While this may not help you, it might save someone else down the line.

CAMPBELL49T
December 13, 2009, 12:35 AM
Ginormous.
Thanks for starting a Dragoon Club. I have a 3rd model Colt Dragoon. Made by Uberti serial #A55118 it is new never been fired. That will change and I will post pictures of target and Dragoon. I have posted a picture on an early Post.
Right now my CP is not working right. And on THR it has affected the post of pictures. I can't even open up a new Post. I have sought help from Arcticap.
He helped me. We came to the point that because of my Pc. I'm not able to do things on the forum.
Let me join and when I get all my pictures on my Lap To. I will post pictures then.
Thank you
Muzzlesmoke

Ginormous
December 13, 2009, 05:14 AM
Ginormous.
Thanks for starting a Dragoon Club.Hi Campbell and/or Muzzlesmoke,

The "Unnofficial Walker/Dragoon LRE club (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5739149#post5739149)" is the brainchild of AussieTH, who sadly passed away Tuesday, November 10, 2009 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=472208&highlight=aussieth). I am simply a member by virtue of owning a 1st model Dragoon.

If you are experiencing difficulties posting pictures to the THR forums of your Dragoon, feel free to email them to me at http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=110920&stc=1&d=1260695210and I will happily post them to the thread on your behalf. Welcome to the club my friend.

CAMPBELL49T
December 13, 2009, 02:07 PM
Ginormous, Sorry to hear about Aussie and didn't realy know him. I'm kind of new here.
Thanks for the offer on posting pics. But, Articap has taught me that already. My PC went down and Im on my LP with no pictures. I will try now.

CAMPBELL49T
December 14, 2009, 03:18 AM
Here are picturess of my 3rd model Dragoon..............






http://admin\pictures\jpeg 014

Ginormous
December 14, 2009, 03:36 PM
Hang in there Campbell, it'll click for you. ;-)

toolslinger
December 15, 2009, 02:48 AM
Dang I also was not aware of Aussie's passing. Condolences to the family and all his friends.

CAMPBELL49T
December 15, 2009, 09:41 PM
Ginormous. I know everybody got an excuse. I can't getter done, Just don't understand this #&^%& Vista. Finally figured out on XP with help of Arcticap.
now I got Vista. :banghead:watch your email...
Thanks

CAMPBELL49T
December 16, 2009, 12:43 PM
Genormouse and all,
Well I gotter done..............Picture of both English Dragoon 1746 and then 3rd model dragoon,
:)






111149



111148

Ginormous
December 18, 2009, 09:33 PM
My apologies to anyone I've left out. If I've overlooked you, kick me in the backside here publicly and I'll fix it up ASAP. As best as I can tell, this is the current unofficial list of official members of AussieTH's "THR Unofficial Walker/Dragoon LRE Club", unofficially speaking of course:



AussieTH (Ascended Master at Arms of the Dragoon LRE)
scrat
Das Jaeger
sltm1
arcticap
TMC4232
bigbadgun
Smokin_Gun
madcratebilder
NobleSniper
Gentleman of the Charcoal
Old Fuff
Ginormous
dlon21
mykeal
Tallship
Calibre44
DoubleDeuce 1
Oyeboten
Fingers McGee
Oldtrader3
StrawwHat
kiwiwalker
Ratdog68
BHP Fan
armyof1
toolslinger
CAMPBELL49T

fineredmist
December 18, 2009, 09:59 PM
How about adding my name to the unofficial list. I believe that being a member of THE OFFICIAL THR WALKER CLUB and the proud owner of 2 WALKERS and 1 3rd Model Dragoon qualifies me for membership.
Respectfully,
FINEREDMIST

Ginormous
December 18, 2009, 10:05 PM
Certainly fineredmist, got any pics of your horse pistols for public consumption? :)

messerist
December 18, 2009, 11:10 PM
Mine is on post #204. Can I join?

Ginormous
December 18, 2009, 11:21 PM
Well dang it messerist, I knew I missed some, but yours has a huge pic attached to it - jeez, forgive my oversight.



AussieTH (Ascended Master at Arms of the Dragoon LRE)
scrat
Das Jaeger
sltm1
arcticap
TMC4232
bigbadgun
Smokin_Gun
madcratebilder
NobleSniper
Gentleman of the Charcoal
Old Fuff
Ginormous
dlon21
mykeal
Tallship
Calibre44
DoubleDeuce 1
Oyeboten
Fingers McGee
Oldtrader3
StrawwHat
kiwiwalker
Ratdog68
BHP Fan
armyof1
toolslinger
CAMPBELL49T
fineredmist
messerist

There, an even 30. How did I get picked for this anyway? I'm the knob head that got burned by a Dragoon . . . :neener:

BHP FAN
December 19, 2009, 12:44 AM
Hey,I'm 25![wait 'til I tell the wife!]

toolslinger
December 19, 2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks for putting me on the list. Now I just gotta get me a Walker

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 20, 2009, 11:19 AM
Not sure if this is a picture of one of my Walker's or the 1st Model. I think it's the 1st. If I have made a mistake and posted the wrong picture it is an honest mistake and I will correct it.. I hope it's the right one. I'm sure it is. I really like this photograph in particular..

Old Fuff
December 20, 2009, 11:37 AM
The revolver in the above picture is a Walker. You tell the difference between it and the Dragoons because of the way the stocks are fitted to the frame at the top/front. In this respect the Walker was unique.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 20, 2009, 11:49 AM
I shall correct it. I'm bringing down the Walker photograph. I never mess with my 1st Model and so wasn't sure since it was partially holstered. Thank you very much. I will have to set up my other computer and bring it on line. That's where most of my pictures are. Thank's again....

Stophel
December 21, 2009, 03:27 AM
May I join? I have the Uberti Whitneyville Dragoon. Haven't even shot it yet. I have the desire to get a second one so I can pack a pair of them! I also want to see if I can manufacture an iron triggerguard for it and call it the "Blue Dragoon"....

:D

Stophel
December 21, 2009, 03:46 AM
By the way, others have beaten around the bush, but still not driven out the bird. Dragoons were mounted infantry. Sort of a mobile infantry. Intended to fight dismounted, if possible, but capable of fighting from horseback if necessary.

Hence, "U.S. Mounted Rifles".

Ginormous
December 21, 2009, 03:22 PM
Hi Stophel,

Post up your pics, and you're in! Share what you got with the rest of us. You'll garner ooh's and aah's and become the envy of the unwashed masses. :neener:

Stophel
December 21, 2009, 11:18 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/Dragoon1860a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Pistols/Dragoon1860b.jpg

I had to get Treso nipples for the Dragoon. The stock ones from Uberti were horrible and VERY undersized, which I understand is to be expected. The Pietta 1860 nipples seem to be fine. I haven't shot either of these guns yet!

Stophel
December 21, 2009, 11:24 PM
Hey, here's a link to a photo of a really super nice pair of second model Dragoons that have custom iron triggerguards.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20americaine/colt/colt%20dragoon%201848-01.jpg

Ginormous
December 21, 2009, 11:50 PM
Nice cased pistols Stophel. Be sure to get pics of your first outing when you do get the chance to shoot these babies. The grin on your face will undoubtedly be priceless!



AussieTH (Ascended Master at Arms of the Dragoon LRE)
scrat
Das Jaeger
sltm1
arcticap
TMC4232
bigbadgun
Smokin_Gun
madcratebilder
NobleSniper
Gentleman of the Charcoal
Old Fuff
Ginormous
dlon21
mykeal
Tallship
Calibre44
DoubleDeuce 1
Oyeboten
Fingers McGee
Oldtrader3
StrawwHat
kiwiwalker
Ratdog68
BHP Fan
armyof1
toolslinger
CAMPBELL49T
fineredmist
messerist
Stophel

Stophel
December 21, 2009, 11:55 PM
I might shoot them Christmas. It used to be the thing when the family got together for Christmas, we all went outside and shot pistols!

mickdk2
December 24, 2009, 12:58 PM
Very nice Stophel! The Dragoon is my favorite BP revolver.

madcratebuilder
December 24, 2009, 06:10 PM
That's a beautiful flask Stophel, original or replica? I like the iron trigger guards, don't see them often.

Stophel
December 24, 2009, 06:57 PM
Took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about.... That is a pair of original Dragoons I found on the internet. Definitely not mine (though I sure wouldn't mind if they were...). Just thought they were nice and you all would like to see them. I love the iron triggerguards. I would really like to have an iron triggerguard and I am considering attempting to make one. It will have to be in two pieces, one, the grip frame and triggerguard bow, and two, the mounting plate section. Fitted and silver soldered together. I'll get around to it...eventually.

I have internet photos of one of the only two original Whitneyville Dragoons I have seen. The triggerguard APPEARS to be iron. Really looks good. It could well be that the triggerguard is ordinary silver plated brass, and the silver has tarnished to black.

BHP FAN
December 24, 2009, 10:37 PM
Stophel, you're right about the U.S.M.R., in fact my Uberti made replica has 'U.S.M.R.' right there on the gun.

Oyeboten
December 25, 2009, 01:46 AM
Those Iron Trigger Guards may well be London Colts, and, a 'Presentation' option, also.

I like them too.


Well...nothing some basic hot Forging/forming, and, a lotta Filing couldn't do...


Lol...


But seriously...would not be too hard to come up with.


I'm busier than 'H' now till April...but maybe then, I'll try one for my Dragoon.


It's a nice look, for sure

Hoof Hearted
January 30, 2011, 08:28 PM
OK........
Can I join if my Dragoon has a Walker cylinder in it?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1888.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1893.jpg

What if my conversion to cartridge is a Walker equivilent load of 60gr fffg and a 250gr bullet?
I mean, this is the definition of an "Express" loading....

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1889.jpg

I don't seem to fit in over at the "Walker club", please help me find a home.........

Colt 2nd Generation, First model

Old Fuff
January 30, 2011, 09:11 PM
GASP!!! :what: SHUDDER!!! :what:

You must take that away!!! Think of the children... :uhoh:

There are too many people here with unbalanced minds... :eek:

Consider the consequences... :evil:

straight-shooter
January 30, 2011, 10:52 PM
I have this Cimmaron Uberti 3rd model Dragoon... her bark is just as dangerous as her bite!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/straightshooter44/1848Dragoonweb.jpg

jtscuba02
January 31, 2011, 06:52 PM
Here is my Whitneyville Dragoon. There are many like it, but this one is mine!

Oyeboten
February 2, 2011, 02:55 AM
Hi Hoof Hearted,


Untill now, I had felt no interest in any 'Conversions'.

Yours, Rings the Bell !


Wow, is that ever nice...


Where would one get a conversion Cylinder like that? Or, did you make it yourself?

I would sure like to have one like that for my Dragoon.

Hoof Hearted
February 2, 2011, 10:15 AM
oyeboten

PM sent yer way!

Oyeboten
February 3, 2011, 05:25 PM
Hi Hoof Hearted,


Have you chrono'd those 60/250 Loads?



I have some 230 Grain flat face Wadcutters I have fired in my plain old Garden Variety Walker, but, I do not remember what they were doing for FPS.


Anyway, I really like the WALKER Cylinder conversion mods for the Dragoon.


Is fitting up an actual COLT Dragoon in that way, and any more or less easy or difficult, than if it were a Uberti?



I understand 'ASM' require some extra effort.

Oyeboten
February 3, 2011, 05:27 PM
Here's an interesting one on the Gee Bee -


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213926702


Be fun to look at it in person to really study it.


Might just be an alright old Revolver too.

Hoof Hearted
February 3, 2011, 06:23 PM
Hi Hoof Hearted,


Have you chrono'd those 60/250 Loads?



I have some 230 Grain flat face Wadcutters I have fired in my plain old Garden Variety Walker, but, I do not remember what they were doing for FPS.


Anyway, I really like the WALKER Cylinder conversion mods for the Dragoon.


Is fitting up an actual COLT Dragoon in that way, and any more or less easy or difficult, than if it were a Uberti?



I understand 'ASM' require some extra effort.
Oyeboten

Other than cutting the protruding "forceing cone" area of the barrel back, the fitment is the same on Uberti or Colt 2nd gen.

One of these days I need to get the Chronograph out, I suppose........I tell most that it is "like" shooting a 44 mag but not as "sharp".

CHM
February 3, 2011, 06:39 PM
Just saw this thread which makes me late in the game. I have Colt 2nd generation: "F" series 1st and 2nd model dragoons and a "C" bicentennial 3rd model. Will post images as soon as I get some time.

45-70 Ranger
February 4, 2011, 02:07 PM
This is a small pic (camera phone thing!) of my old 2nd Mod. Dragoon. A 1969 ASM production that I've had since 1969...It has been my most favored revolver of all time and is still my best shooter! Just love it even after all these years. Killed 4 hogs, 3 deer, and unknown number of other stuff like aramidillos and such. Yes sir! That's my baby!

Wade

Oyeboten
March 6, 2011, 06:09 AM
So, Hoof Hearted, does your Conversion use the .460 S & W Magnum Brass?

Hoof Hearted
March 6, 2011, 10:16 AM
Yes it does!

Clembert and I went down the same basic path but I followed the convential wisdom of the conversion era and reamed the chambers straight (no throats) he used a gunsmith (Dave Clements I believe) who left throats in his chambers. On mine using 250 grain bullets the throat would have been very short but I also have 15 or 20 conversions that were set up this way and another fellow that I knew who did one of these was experiencing some pressure issues with his. The thing that people don't understand is that these "open top" designs compound set back issues. There is no gas ring at the front of the cylinder so headspace is a total of all clearances. The hammer pushes the cylinder forward and the bullet exiting pushes it rearward. So far mine has held up pretty well!

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