problems with retail stores and laws regarding minors


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Skillet
July 8, 2009, 05:15 PM
so i was at sportsmans warehouse the other day, and i wanted to see this revolver. now, since i am "underaged", i had to get my dad to come look at it then give the gun to me through his hands, thus giving parental permission. so, the guy gave my dad the revolver and my dad looked at it a bit and then he let me look at it. it was not in my hands for 5 seconds and the guy took it away from me and said that we could not do that because the BATF said that even through parental permission, i could not hold this gun inside that store. and that the law went into force last summer.
i have been to several gun shops since last summer, as well as cabela's, and as long as my dad gave me that pistol they did not have a single problem with it. so, is this guy right, or wrong.
i felt very offended and "stomped on". i feel that as long as is reasonable, age should not be a factor when in those situations. i have seen 12 year old kids handling guns by the safety book and in perfect ways, and i have seen 40 year old guys handle a gun like it was a rag doll.
so enlighten me please on what your opinion is on this situation. and please do answer my question.
thanks!:banghead:

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GojuBrian
July 8, 2009, 05:22 PM
I don't know the laws for your state, but it is possible that the other stores employees aren't aware of the law. It seems unlikely the guy is just making up his own rules regarding minors.

p.s. it's stupid

hso
July 8, 2009, 05:24 PM
It seems unlikely the guy is just making up his own rules regarding minors.

You'd be surprised to find how individuals and individual retailers "interpret" the rules all out of recognition.

AnthonyC.
July 8, 2009, 05:29 PM
ummm, I dont see how this could be a law considering that Gander Mountain has 1,000+ guns out on racks (not behind glass) and they encourage you to pick them up and handle them....

They are locked with a cable and trigger guard, but other than that, they are out in the open.

COMPNOR
July 8, 2009, 05:30 PM
As people like to say, go talk to a manager, or have your dad talk to the manager, or both of you. Explain how you felt. Either it gets resolved, or it doesn't. But that seems like a good first step.

AnthonyC.
July 8, 2009, 05:32 PM
I would tell that manager that he better resolve this issue, or he just lost a few customers for life.....

NavyLCDR
July 8, 2009, 05:33 PM
It is not illegal. Just their lack of knowledge.

Skillet
July 8, 2009, 05:42 PM
anthony C, they already have lost 2 customers for life.
i go to impact gun's store here in idaho now. they are cheap, and they know me as a customer with my dad.

mgkdrgn
July 8, 2009, 06:01 PM
ummm, I dont see how this could be a law considering that Gander Mountain has 1,000+ guns out on racks (not behind glass) and they encourage you to pick them up and handle them....

They are locked with a cable and trigger guard, but other than that, they are out in the open.

But, you won't see any revolvers (or semi-auto handguns) out in the open.

raskolnikov_22
July 8, 2009, 06:08 PM
Usually the customer is always right, but if it's the customer vs. running afoul of the ATF, then you better believe the customer will lose. Did a Google search and couldn't find any laws about it, but did pull up some other store's websites with similar rules.

AnthonyC.
July 8, 2009, 06:09 PM
You are right, mgkdrgn, but they will let anyone hold them if you ask, and none of them have locks on them.

And I thought he was asking about all guns, not just revolvers...:scrutiny:

youngda9
July 8, 2009, 06:10 PM
You're underage and you handled a weapon, I'm surprised you didn't spray the entire store with automatic fire and gun them all down.
/sarcasm

That is stupid, you were there with your dad, I assume gun was checked, anyone should be able to fondle with permission. Tell the manager, if you get a bad response don't return and spread the news through the interwebz if that makes ya feel better.

Corey
July 8, 2009, 06:44 PM
Actually, it is prohibited for a dealer to show a handgun to an underage person. The common practice is to for the dealer to show the gun to the parent and then the parent can show it to the juvenile but that is not legal per ATF as the juvenile is still in possession of a handgun. Here is the actual wording from ATF:

Juvenile possession of a handgun on the business premises of a licensee for examination or viewing purposes is prohibited pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(x). Under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), it is unlawful for a Federal firearms licensee to sell or deliver “any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age.”

Further, 18 U.S.C. 922(x) provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile - (a) a handgun; or (b) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun. And, it shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess the same. This subsection does not apply to--

A. a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile--

i. in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

ii. with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except--

I. during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or

II. with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;

iii. the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile;

iv. and in accordance with State and local law;

B. a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;

C. a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

D. the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.

Therefore, juvenile possession of a handgun on the business premises of a licensee for examination or viewing purposes is prohibited pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(x) as it does not fall within one of the enumerated exceptions.


That said, the salesman was still a jerk.

NavyLCDR
July 8, 2009, 06:47 PM
So, what do you think? Can you be employed by an FFL and sell handguns if you are <18?

Corey, where did you get that info from?

Corey
July 8, 2009, 07:04 PM
I should have included the link in the original post, but here is it is:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/2008shotshowfaq.htm

As for <18 working for an FFL, ATF has that exact question in their online FAQ's http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f4

May an employee of a licensed dealer, such as a manager or clerk, who is under 21 years of age, sell handguns and ammunition suitable for use in handguns for the licensee?

Yes, if the employee is not a prohibited person (e.g., a felon). However, to sell handguns, a person less than 18 years of age must have the prior written consent of a parent or guardian and the written consent must be in the person’s possession at all times. Also, the parent or guardian giving the written consent may not be prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. Moreover, State law must not prohibit the juvenile from possessing the handguns or ammunition.
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]


It seems strange, a juvenile cannot handle a handgun as a customer, but can as a salesman. But that is because one of the exceptions in the prohibition is if it is "in the course of employment".

MMCSRET
July 8, 2009, 07:16 PM
I notice you are in Idaho. In the Idaho Falls store they have never seemed to have a problem letting youngsters look at their wares, wonder if it is self imposed in which ever store you were in.

Avtomat Kalashnikova
July 8, 2009, 07:24 PM
i've been told in some stores that i can't handle guns without my parents for insurance reasons, but in my local shop, i can hold whatever i want by myself, but the owner is also a friend of my family.

NavyLCDR
July 8, 2009, 11:38 PM
It seems strange, a juvenile cannot handle a handgun as a customer, but can as a salesman. But that is because one of the exceptions in the prohibition is if it is "in the course of employment".

Thanks for the link. I wasn't arguing with you, I was really just wanting to know where it was. You know, I've been reading 18 USC 922(x) wrong all this time. I always thought it said in the course of employment in ranching activities. I never realized it was in the course of employment, <--- comma there!

Thanks!

Mags
July 8, 2009, 11:41 PM
In my experience most big box stores suck but I have no problem with that. There prices are great and that is why they suck (cheap labor) can't get a steak house steak at a fast food joint now can you?

kirklandkie
July 9, 2009, 12:19 AM
i'm not sure what the law is where you are, but i am 20 (a minor) and when i go to retail stores i don't think i am allowed to handle pistols in ct. i may be wrong in this assumption but based on what i know of ct law it seems probable. Whenever i go to a large retail store if i want to look at a pistol typically i talk shop for a few minutes to the store associate and when i ask to look at a weapon they don't even ID me because i think they figure if i know so much about them i must be of age.... eh, who knows lol
i wouldn't knock the store for this incident, just go look up the law or as others have suggested speak with the management to find out what the story is.

-kirk

Officers'Wife
July 9, 2009, 12:30 AM
In the age of a vindictive government that believes honest people need the sword of law over their heads to keep them honest, CYA is the rule of business. Don't take it personally, the guy was just trying to protect his livelihood.

JohnBT
July 9, 2009, 08:52 AM
"Further, 18 U.S.C. 922(x) provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer "

Letting someone look at a gun is neither a sale, a delivery or a transfer. My lawyer says you need a better lawyer to write your legal opinions.

John

NavyLCDR
July 9, 2009, 10:09 AM
JohnBT,

Yes, I would agree with that, not that my agreement with it means anything! :D

Corey
July 9, 2009, 01:08 PM
NavyLT, I never thought you were trying to argue, just glad for the reminder to put the link:).

I think ATF takes the position that the dealer handing a gun to a customer for examination or viewing purposes constitutes a delivery as one of the definitions of delivery is to grant possession, custody, or control of something to another person.

I have never heard of a dealer getting in trouble for this with ATF, but ATF does want dealers to be aware of it. As for pushing the issue with ATF, I have great respect and admiration for activists, but I myself do not have the money or the time to be a test case in court.

ThePunisher'sArmory
July 9, 2009, 01:17 PM
All these stupid a** rules..I mean come on his dad is right there. Let the boy/or girl look at the gun. This used to be a free country.

freakshow10mm
July 9, 2009, 01:23 PM
Letting someone look at a gun is neither a sale, a delivery or a transfer. My lawyer says you need a better lawyer to write your legal opinions.
No but it is this:

a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile--

If done for one of the exemptions, it's legal. Since the inspection of a handgun on FFL premises is not an exception it's illegal. That's what the law states. Seems pretty clear to me.

JohnBT
July 9, 2009, 03:53 PM
My lawyer still doesn't agree with your loose interpretation of the statute. And neither do I.

To agree with you I would have to believe that going to a new car dealership and sitting in the driver's seat of a car in the showroom somehow constitutes possession or a transfer. Clearly it doesn't.

Clearly none of the gun stores I've been in during the past 50+ years believes the law prohibits it either.
_____

"I think ATF takes the position that the dealer handing a gun to a customer for examination or viewing purposes constitutes a delivery as one of the definitions of delivery is to grant possession, custody, or control of something to another person."

Okay, let's say you have custody. Try walking out the door without paying for it.

Clearly the ATF hasn't told the majority of gun stores what they are thinking.

John

freakshow10mm
July 9, 2009, 05:34 PM
The law seems clear to me. If your lawyer thinks otherwise, good for him.

It's not the ATF's job to educate the industry on laws. It's our job to know them. The information is clearly on the ATF website as a courtesy.

.455_Hunter
July 9, 2009, 05:55 PM
Why doesn't somebody just ask the BATFE? My contacts in the agency are usually more knowable about the "E" than the "F".

freakshow10mm
July 9, 2009, 06:19 PM
It seems the ATF has already answered this question and that is why it's on the website.

You know the rule. Ask 5 ATF agents a question you'll get 12 answers.

JohnBT
July 9, 2009, 09:48 PM
And if you ask 5 people on the 'net you'll get 12 answers because of variability in reading comprehension.

"The information is clearly on the ATF website as a courtesy."

Obviously it's not clear.

John

ugaarguy
July 9, 2009, 11:07 PM
And if you ask 5 people on the 'net you'll get 12 answers because of variability in reading comprehension.

"The information is clearly on the ATF website as a courtesy."

Obviously it's not clear.

John
Corey quoted and liked what's on the ATF website. The ATF specifically says:
Juvenile possession of a handgun on the business premises of a licensee for examination or viewing purposes is prohibited pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(x).
It doesn't matter how you, or I, or your lawyer, or anyone else interprets 18 U.S.C. 922(x). The ATF has issued their interpretation, and until someone challenges it in court that's how it is. Most dealers just aren't willing to risk their livelihood over it. I agree that it's stupid, but as an employee of a dealer I completely understand the dealer's position.

trex1310
July 9, 2009, 11:24 PM
I remember a time in my past when I couldn't drink a beer in a bar, but I could damn
well hold an M-16 in a foreign country.

DSAPT9
July 10, 2009, 02:59 AM
I work at a local sporting goods store in north Idaho and ATF has told us as long as the parent or guardian is with the minor they take responsibility. Then it goes to state law and here it is.

If I give it to the parent then I do not sell, transfer or deliver a firearm to a minor the parent does and like I said Idaho law says they can.


TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 33
FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
18-3302E.Possession of a weapon by a minor. (1) It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen (18) years to possess or have in possession any weapon, as defined in section 18-3302A, Idaho Code, unless he:
(a) Has the written permission of his parent or guardian to possess the weapon; or
(b) Is accompanied by his parent or guardian while he has the weapon in his possession.
(2) Any minor under the age of twelve (12) years in possession of a weapon shall be accompanied by an adult.
(3) Any person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Officers'Wife
July 10, 2009, 02:15 PM
I remember a time in my past when I couldn't drink a beer in a bar, but I could damn
well hold an M-16 in a foreign country.

And in the various forts my husband has been stationed, I've seen 18 and 19 year old men that could be trusted with tanks, mortars, true assault weapons and hand grenades inside the gates but are considered a menace with a handgun outside the gates.

freakshow10mm
July 10, 2009, 02:19 PM
Yep. 17yo marines can be within spitting distance of the President with loaded weapons but can't vote, smoke, or drink. Makes perfect sense.

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