C&R "Bound Book"


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cbrgator
July 8, 2009, 05:39 PM
Does the C&R "Bound Book" actually have to be bound? Can I just print the record keeping pages off the internet and keep them in a 3 ring binder?

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Blackbeard
July 8, 2009, 07:34 PM
If you did, wouldn't that make them bound?

MrFox
July 8, 2009, 07:42 PM
I keep mine in a three ring binder with the clear page protectors. I also keep copies of FFL's, drivers license, receipts, etc.

If its related, I keep it.

Also, I have a copy of it as back up and a burned disk containing pictures and information like serial numbers.

Overkill? Maybe. CYOA!

TexasRifleman
July 8, 2009, 08:00 PM
Here's what I find:

A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages, which must be maintained on the business premises. In either event, the format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively. [27 CFR 178.125]

This is in a FAQ published by the Firearm Engravers Guild of America for their members.

http://www.fega.com/members/batf.html

I have seen this in other places too, that loose leaf is acceptable. Doesn't appear to actually be defined in the law, leaving it to one of those odd "It means whatever ATF says it means" things.

Given that they now allow electronic recording, the "bound" idea seems to be fading.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/atf_ruling2008-2.pdf

In part:

ATF has determined that acquisition and disposition records required by 27 CFR Part 478,
Subpart H, and 478.121, 478.122, 478.123, and 478.125(e), in computerized form,
satisfy the standard of permanency and are substantially equivalent to paper records if they
meet the following criteria:


Now, the requirements for the database are rather strict, but the point is that ATF says that printed pages from the database are required, and those would not be bound.


So, you can make the argument fairly well that a 3 ring binder will be sufficient, not necessarily a truly "bound" book.

Not a lawyer blah blah blah.

Steve in PA
July 9, 2009, 01:35 AM
I use printed pages in a 3-ring binder.

Oyeboten
July 9, 2009, 01:59 AM
The underlieing idea of a 'Bound Book', is that Pages may not be added or removed.

illinois brass man
July 9, 2009, 02:10 AM
I purchased a leather bound book for mine

Steve in PA
July 9, 2009, 11:34 AM
You can use a "bound" book.........or loose leaf pages. Either one works, and both are legal.

Grizzly Adams
July 9, 2009, 01:54 PM
When I got my FFL in '79 I asked this question of three different agents. One said the book had to be "bound" and the other two said that loose leaf was sufficient. I went with the majority. When I let my license expire in '04, I sent my loose leaf "bound book" into BATFE and there was no problem.

EOD Guy
July 9, 2009, 02:33 PM
I would like someone to show me where the term "bound book" appears in the regulation or in the law. The FAQs or index don't count.:evil:

The official term is "Acquisition and Disposition Record".

LickitySplit
July 9, 2009, 03:59 PM
3 ring binder is fine, or for roughly the same price as the binder, you can take the pages to Staples/Copy Cop/Office depot and have them put it together with spiral binding.

TexasRifleman
July 9, 2009, 04:19 PM
I would like someone to show me where the term "bound book" appears in the regulation or in the law.

The term bound record absolutely does appear in the law.

I posted it above.

27 CFR 478.125. This is for C&R but the wording is the same for other FFL types.

f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below.

And under the armor piercing ammo sales section:

478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(a) Armor piercing ammunition sales by licensed collectors to nonlicensees. The sale or other disposition of armor piercing ammunition by licensed collectors shall be recorded in a bound record at the time a transaction is made.

There is no question that the term "bound" appears in the law.

The official term is "Acquisition and Disposition Record".

That is the required TITLE of the pages.

For C&R the required legal title is: "Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record"

Completely different section of the law from the section requiring it to be "bound".

cbrgator
July 9, 2009, 06:13 PM
So I guess I'll just go with a 3-ring binder then. I don't know...

CajunBass
July 9, 2009, 09:20 PM
That's all I've got.

EOD Guy
July 9, 2009, 09:53 PM
Quote:
I would like someone to show me where the term "bound book" appears in the regulation or in the law.

The term bound record absolutely does appear in the law.

I posted it above.

No you didn't. Like I said, where is the term "bound book" in the regulation?

:evil::evil:Just in case you missed my toung in cheek statement.:evil::evil:

People assume that bound means permanenty bound which is not true. Even the "bound books" sold by most companies, such as Brownells are not permanenty bound but are held together by staples.

SMMAssociates
July 10, 2009, 05:24 AM
I expect the whole thing dates from before 3-ring binders were common.... Dunno....

However, a "bound book" appears (IANAL) to mean one in which the pages are stitched to a cover, so that addition is impossible, and removal visible. It also avoids loose records in a shoe box or some such. Even with computer-printed records, serialization likely covers the "add or remove" problem.

Over long periods of time, these things get kinda worn, though.... My club's range has a sign-in book of the "bound book" type I refer to above, with entries from the 70's. It's kinda ratty....

As things stand today, machine readable, or at least easily scanned paper, would be better for ATF, but who knows....

Regards,

zoom6zoom
July 10, 2009, 09:22 AM
I keep mine in a three ring binder with the clear page protectors. I also keep copies of FFL's, drivers license, receipts, etc.

Same here. Just make sure the pages are numbered.

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